Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Vintage Creep]

To steer this thread on-topic,

Any final smashes you would like to see changed completely?

Bowser should have his Koopa Clown Car. If Bowser Jr. gets in though, Giga Bowser can stay, but I'd like him to be more similar to the Mario games.
Pit should have his golden armor from Uprising and the Palutena's Army should go to... Palutena.
Link's one is just boring. Don't know what should be put instead, because Oni Link is not related to Skyward Sword which will probably be the attire he will have. Maybe something involving Epona? Wait, that wouldn't work either. Oh well, who cares, Epona should be the final smash. For Toon Link, eh, maybe something involving Valoo I don't know. He should have a completely revamped moveset anyway, kill the clones.
Luigi's one wasn't that bad, but it doesn't make sense. I haven't played Dark Moon yet, but something involving the vacuum should be better. Maybe using fire/water/ice.
Mario should become Fire Mario. Brawl's attack would still be in, but others would be implemented. Something like you press simply B and it does Brawl's final turning you to normal Mario, but before that you can attack your enemies WarioMan-style.
Obviously for the variety's sake, Landmaster must stay only to Fox. Or maybe Falco, since I'd like to see Fox using the Arwing. It could work similar to the Dragoon, only slower. Before hitting the opponent, it will shoot on the ground. It can also be used more times (3?).
Wolf could call Pigma as he appeared in StarFox Assault. Pigma should attack similar to Andross, but with more power and different attacks.
Lucario's one is OK but incredibly underpowered. It simply sucks. Make it stronger and it's OK.
MetaKnight's one is lame. I don't know Kirby that much so I can't suggest anything, but please, it simply sucks hard.
Kirby should have different moves based on the form he's in, but that could become hard. Maybe 3/4 different smashes?
R.O.B. should have something involving Stack-Up or Gyromite. The one he has now is... meh.
DK's one is a little too weak, imho, but it's fun.
Jigglypuff's is funny as hell but it simply doesn't make sense imho. She should sing making everybody fall asleep like Peach, after a brief concert.
Marth's one is boring. I don't know Fire Emblem either, but c'mon, there has to be something better than that.
Captain Falcon's makes sense, but I don't know, something about the players being toss in a completely different environment itches me. At least they should make the stage they appear in random between like 5 circuits (Mute City, Big Blue, ecc...)
Ness and Lucas need to have different moves.
Ice Climbers is meh. Make something more related to the game.

Eh, I didn't like Final Smashes at all. In fact I have them out of the matches. Unbalanced and most of them are just bad looking. I support them if made good. I also support having more final smashes per character, something like 2 or 3.

 

[Deleted member]

You mean the same Nintendo that has weed in Pikmin 2???

Spoiler

Nah... couldn't be!

I haven't played Pikmin 2, but that's hilarious.


Anyway, how come no-one else took Oasis's challenge?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Anyway, how come no-one else took Oasis's challenge?

What challenge? If it's maid related, forget about it.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Jigglypuff should sing and definitely have Peaches Final Smash.
If Toon Link is to do the same ol Triforce slash thing he can at least have 3 other Toon Links appear and help him to nod to the four-swords game.

 

[Vintage Creep]

Jigglypuff should sing and definitely have Peaches Final Smash.
If Toon Link is to do the same ol Triforce slash thing he can at least have 3 other Toon Links appear and help him to nod to the four-swords game.

Hey this one is a good idea.
Also, I would love to actually control Ganon during his pig form.

 

[Deleted member]

What challenge? If it's maid related, forget about it.

Supposing Nintendo characters did appear in a crossover game (I guess we can assume a fighter), what would the roster for Nintendo look like if you're trying to keep it conservative but also have the best representation of Nintendo and also allow for the most variety? Maybe... 10 to 15 characters? I'm thinking:

Mario
Link
Pikachu
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Samus
Bowser
Peach
Yoshi
Ganondorf

YOU'LL MORE OR LESS GET SMASH 64 but oh well.

More interesting than FSs in my opinion.

Here's my picks btw (which were also ignored).

Can I go for anything? Or do I have to pic staples?

If staples, then it looks a lot like yours.

If I'm allowed to pick anything based on diversity then, Dream Team pics coming up:

Link ( a more versatile tool user/Zoner, more like Jin Kisaragi and Ky Kisuke)
Vaati (as a 3 stage transforming character similar to the DBZ games)
Samus/ZSuit Samus (as a more fluid transforming character, not like in Smash, Samus a more mean Zoner/Beatdown hybrid that's more in-line with her source material, and ZSuit a Cammy/Noel-like Rushdown character) (the transformation is fluid like Valkenhain in BB, she needs to charge energy to use her suit, but can combo into it)
Ridley (Aerial character)
Ganondorf (Bison-like heavyweight with a Dark Magic Gimmick where he steals Super Meter/Health)
Peach (how can you not love Peach, she's super versatile and a mean Mage (canonically) at that)
Palutena (would make for a neat weapon user/Zoner, can she don a lance? I hope so)
DK + Diddy Duo (Grapple heavy characters with lots of command grabs, work as Stance Duo that's a call back to the DK series where you can switch leads)
Lucario or Mewtwo, (either one is fine) (Lucario is a Monk-like character similar to PM, Mewtwo a Psyonic like what I previously described would be good for him a while back)
Mario + Luigi duo (A hybrid between Smash's Ice Climbers, and the M&L RPG games)
Baron von Waluigi + Duck Hunt Dog (drawing coming up, still working on it) (The Dog is more of an aid similar to Eddie in GG)
Ashley ( I've already said why I like this character, a turtle character focused on Hexes and debilitating her opponents)
Lyn (duh?)
Ike (with Axes please)
Saki (stance character that uses both his Gun and Beam Sword, Gun moves are similar to Noel's Gun-Kata)

15 characters total. The duos count as one as they work in unison, and the transformers have to work as one character as well.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Give Jigglypuff a marker that causes 999% damage when she puts everyone to sleep.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Hey this one is a good idea.
Also, I would love to actually control Ganon during his pig form.

Yeah he probably has like the shortest FS next to Metaknight's.

I haven't played Pikmin 2, but that's hilarious.
Anyway, how come no-one else took Oasis's challenge?

It's funny because Olimar creates his own names for every object he collects. He also creates Journal Entries and Sale Pitch logs for all of the items as well.

Direct quote from journal entry: "I just think it looks and feels like a soft blanket. In the interest of scientific discovery, I'd better give it a test run..."

As for the Challenge

Spoiler

1) Mario
2) Kirby
3) Link
4) Pikachu
5) Samus
6) Fox
7) Captain Falcon
8) Donkey Kong
9) Wario
10) Yoshi
11) Marth
12) Little Mac
13) Ice Climbers
14) Pit
15. Mr. G&W

 

[FlareHabanero]

Representing Nintendo using only 15 characters? Well, that doesn't sound like much of a challenge considering I've done something similar with 20 in the past.

Mario
Yoshi
Wario
Donkey Kong
Link
Takamaru
Samus
Pit
Kirby
Pikachu
Fox
Captain Falcon
Marth
R.O.B.
Little Mac

 

[Vintage Creep]

Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Yoshi
Wario
Donkey Kong
Rosalina
Pikachu
Mewtwo
Snivy
Deoxys
Link
Sheriff
Tom Nook

 

[Shorts]

Conservative, with competitive variety.

Mario (Nintendo's Ryu)
Peach (Nintendo's Chun Li)
Bowser (Heavy character, strong, slower with few projectiles)
Donkey Kong (Grappler)
Link: (Item ***)
Ganondorf (Fast, Strong, low health)
Trainer Red (Charizard/Blastiose/Venasuar/Pidgeot/Snorlax/Pikachu are used more as attacks, not necessarily the characters you are)
Mewtwo (Pyshic monster, he's a good ranged character, his moves would sort of be akin to Carl Clover & Nirvana, but instead of having Nirvana it's his psychic abilities)
Kirby (Makes use of his abilities in his games. He's small, and weak, but has a lot of health)
King Dedede (Dat hammer used to keep dem characters at bay)
Samus (Projectile/Trap Setter)
Ridley (Arieal rapist)
Fox (Nintendo's version of MvC3's Dante)
Little Mac (Rushdown character)
Olimar (Pikmin fiend)
Tom Nook (Joke character, throws furniture, ect.)

 

[SmashChu]

At this point I don't care what happens to the Final Smashes, considering they are banned in typical competitive fare due to Smash Balls being used along with every other item. Good thing too, because Brawl is already a balanced train wreck to begin with and to break it even further is adding salt on the wound.

Just gonna point out the one major tournament with items didn't have Meta-Knight in the top 8.

 

[Deleted member]

Just gonna point out the one major tournament with items didn't have Meta-Knight in the top 8.

Yeah, because Sonic took up all 8 spots.

Every Smashball match is always SuperSonic spam.

EDIT: Oh yeah, that's right he's got me blocked... I forgot how 'sensitive' some people around here can be.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Just gonna point out the one major tournament with items didn't have Meta-Knight in the top 8.

Well when items are on, things get really ****ed over.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Mario
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Wario
Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer /w 6 most recognized Pokemanz
Samus
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Douglas Jay Falcon
Marth
Fox
Olimar
Mr. Game and Watch
Kirby

or something

 

[SmashChu]

Well when items are on, things get really ****ed over.

Just pointing out the results. Hard to say items break the game when the most "broken" character wasn't even in the top. Makes you think.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Because spamming the hell out of Super Sonic takes a lot of skill to master...

No matter what is said, items should not be used as the basis for balance.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Manly might like this moveset.

 

[SmashChu]

Because spamming the hell out of Super Sonic takes a lot of skill to master...

No matter what is said, items should not be used as the basis for balance.

Because competitive players lose when they are on. Like Ken. My favorite is when competitive players shield warpstars. Classic.

Case in point: real men use items. Little girls turn them off because "On no, he killed me with an item. It's not fair."

 

[Shorts]

Use items or not the game should be balanced at the most basic, 1v1 no item play. The rest of the balancing will fall into place if this is how it's balanced. That way, everyone's happy. Why be AGAINST balancing? Really.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

It all depends on how the game was meant to be played. I do fine without items and whoop peoples hineys. I think I have more fun with items though.

SSB4 should still be balanced. Smash should've been from the start.

 

[SmashChu]

Use items or not the game should be balanced at the most basic, 1v1 no item play. The rest of the balancing will fall into place if this is how it's balanced. That way, everyone's happy. Why be AGAINST balancing? Really.

It isn't because most people do not play that. Multiple players and items tends to be the most played mode. This is why competitive players never see it as balanced. But Sakurai has said that online results show everyone does about the same. There is a disjoint. Fact is, competitive Smash is not Smash.

 

[SmashChu]

EDIT: Oh yeah, that's right he's got me blocked... I forgot how 'sensitive' some people around here can be.

I actually block you because you are incredibly uninteresting and post a TON. You also spam images which gets annoying.

(Probably should have just merged this into the last post. Think before you post kids)

 

[Shorts]

It all depends on how the game was meant to be played. I do fine without items and whoop peoples hineys. I think I have more fun with items though.

Same. But Smash is meant to be played, how you want to play it. So it should be balanced for all modes of play. Simple as that. I'm not even asking for more competitive gameplay, just general balance.

@Chu, I'm not excepting that excuse for poor balancing. Frankly, that's exactly what that is.

 

[Deleted member]

Use items or not the game should be balanced at the most basic, 1v1 no item play. The rest of the balancing will fall into place if this is how it's balanced. That way, everyone's happy. Why be AGAINST balancing? Really.

Well, items could be viable if they were balanced.

Which means no random exploding crates, no Hammers, no Golden Hammers, no Pokeballs, no Assist Trophies, no Fans, etc...

Capsules, Bomboms, Motion Sensor Bombs, Beam Swords and the like are alright. They are more balanced, and I COULD see them being competitively viable if they were toned down in power and made actually fair.

But, since most items are just LULSORANDOM, there's just no point in even bothering. Melee was a little better with it's items, but Brawl just went overboard with the OP items. Especially those Collectathon items like the Dragoon. It basically becomes an item chasing game, not even a fighting game anymore, just a random party game. At that pace why not just pick up Mario Party, you'll have as much 'fun' with that...

 

[FlareHabanero]

Still, using items is not a sign of skill. It's a sign of rotten luck screwing you over at the most inappropriate times. I mean, what's the point of practicing with a character on varies stages to learn the varies strengths and weaknesses when all you have to do is get the Golden Hammer and just anal probe everything? It doesn't really improve anything, it only causes a sense of fairness to be throw out the window.

 

[SmashChu]

@Chu, I'm not excepting that excuse for poor balancing. Frankly, that's exactly what that is.

Not sure how it is an excuse. The man said that everyone performs the same online. This is going to be more representative than Smashboard's opinion.

Still, using items is not a sign of skill. It's a sign of rotten luck screwing you over at the most inappropriate times. I mean, what's the point of practicing with a character on varies stages to learn the varies strengths and weaknesses when all you have to do is get the Golden Hammer and just anal probe everything? It doesn't really improve anything, it only causes a sense of fairness to be throw out the window.

As far as the EVO match, Ken should not have picked up the Hammer. His character has counter and can simply counter ROB and kill him. He took it and got attacked. He made a stupid decision.Items a re part of the game. If you get them and win then you are probably better. Despite what competitive players think, you can't grab them and press buttons. Knowing the best way to utilize them is what makes you win.
If EVO proved one thing, it that the reason items are turned off has nothing to do with balance. It has everything to do with the scene not knowing how to use them (which is why a pro like Ken lost. He clearly had no idea what he was doing). The current players are not good enough to play with items as many of them would not know what to do.
Still, true Smash is items on. I would not be surprised if Sakurai makes them always on in online matches.

 

[Frostwraith]

Real men use items.

I think they should add items of all kinds. After all, you can switch whatever items you like (or hate) on and off, so why complain about them in the first place?

Complaining about items is almost complaining for the sake of complaining. My opinion, so no need to claim my head on a pike.

 

[Deleted member]

I actually block you because you are incredibly uninteresting and post a TON. You also spam images which gets annoying.

(Probably should have just merged this into the last post. Think before you post kids)

Need I remind you about your book-long posts about sales and economics? Your last post to N3ON was longer than anything I've ever posted. Takes one to know one I guess.

As Chrono likes to say, "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

"unless of course you're trapped IN a glass house, then by all means THROW IT. What are you an idiot?"
-Demitri Martin

Anyway, I know where this discussion is headed. We're in for another, "Smash is not a fighting game, it isn't the intention of the creators" argument. So I'll be taking my leave till the whole deal blows over. SmashChu, sometimes I think you're just a very good troll, you like to complain about people picking on you, but you're always ripe to start a ****storm when you post...

 

[FlareHabanero]

Still, saying that the items should be the basis of the balance is not the way to go, since it's a very cheap way to disguise the faults. Like Shortie said, the 1 vs. 1 with no items method would in general be the prefered method of balancing since it gives off a better sense of balancing out the strengths/weaknesses of the roster and stages without ruining the item aspect.

 

[Shorts]

Well I don't car what Chu says because I just found out I have 230 more dollars than I thought I had. Monays.

 

[lobotheduck21]

I clicked on the a random "10 characters I want to be in smash" video, One of the first things he said was "I'm not puting in ghiraham, zoaroak, and magnus, because we all know there basically in." I just chuckled an shut the video off

 

[Metal Overlord]

WHY do people care about how others play their games -_-

Just play the goddamned game however you want, items or no items, and leave it at that

 

[Diddy Kong]

As Chrono likes to say, "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

 

[Deleted member]

Real men use items.

I think they should add items of all kinds. After all, you can switch whatever items you like (or hate) on and off, so why complain about them in the first place?

Complaining about items is almost complaining for the sake of complaining. My opinion, so no need to claim my head on a pike.

No one is complaining about items really. I play with items from time to time as well.

Items are just not competitively viable because of the random factor behind them. Even the more fair items are still a little too advatageous in dire situations. Not to mention finding and testing all the items to see which are ok is too much of a hassle not worth the effort.

It doesn't take a goddamn rocket scientist to figure out why people don't compete with items or cheap stages..

Honestly, this whole argument is fickle, I had the same talk on /v/ about 2 months back an it was full of *********** on both sides, and the few rational people were being ignored.

 

[SmashChu]

Real men use items.

I think they should add items of all kinds. After all, you can switch whatever items you like (or hate) on and off, so why complain about them in the first place?

Complaining about items is almost complaining for the sake of complaining. My opinion, so no need to claim my head on a pike.

I agree. One thing I think Smash 4 needs is a larger variety of items. Some should be very powerful and others should be weak. A good blend would make the game more fun and add more credence to turning some off (turning all of them off is the quitters way out).

Still, saying that the items should be the basis of the balance is not the way to go, since it's a very cheap way to disguise the faults. Like Shortie said, the 1 vs. 1 with no items method would in general be the prefered method of balancing since it gives off a better sense of balancing out the strengths/weaknesses of the roster and stages without ruining the item aspect.

The problem is that most players do not play that way. 4vs, no items, maybe. But not 1v1 no items. Since less than 1% of the player bases even plays that way, it makes no sense to balance everything around that.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Items suck. However, with casuals I often let them have Smash Balls on. Sometimes I even refuse going after them myself.

This alone should give you an idea how unbalanced items are.

 

[Frostwraith]

Eww... this thread is having quite the stench. Like mixing something salty with something spicy, blending with sarcasm, satire and stupidity.

Please forgive me, but I must go and puke at the restroom. Must have got some... stomach ache. I think the popcorn got rotten or something.

 

[Deleted member]

The problem is that most players do not play that way. 4vs, no items, maybe. But not 1v1 no items. Since less than 1% of the player bases even plays that way, it makes no sense to balance everything around that.

Who cares man? Why are you coming to SmashBoards to complain about people playing the game in a competitive fashion?

People will do whatever they choose. The option to turn off items is still in the game, so that was also intended by the devs.


EDIT: **** this! Why am I still posting?

I'm outta here, this **** is dumb...

 

[FlareHabanero]

The problem is that most players do not play that way. 4vs, no items, maybe. But not 1v1 no items. Since less than 1% of the player bases even plays that way, it makes no sense to balance everything around that.

Why not? It's not like it's alienating anything by balancing like that; in fact it's easily the best way to dissect how characters fair against what. You can still use all of the gimmicks you want, but using the gimmicks as the basis is not the way to go.