Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[peeup]

Dude okay I'm getting sick of it too. I honestly don't get where you're coming from, but I'm trying to. Please tell me how a moveset with diverse attacks, say Mario's just cause its easy, is less engaging than a moveset solely made up of punches. I really don't wanna be having this argument either because right now you sound as stupid and ignorant to me as I do to you.

 

[Deleted member]

I've tagged out, dude.
Again, I'll leave it to Kuma. He's the fighting game guru, so to speak.

 

[peeup]

Haha alright man peace then. I'll wait for Kuma to tear me a new one.

 

[FalKoopa]

I think peeup wants to say that characters should use as much canon material in their moveset, before resorting to fillers. I agree with that.

 

[peeup]

Word. And when a character's canon material is essentially indistinguishable from their filler... Well I personally don't like that.

 

[Fastblade5035]

I think peeup wants to say that characters should use as much canon material in their moveset, before resorting to fillers. I agree with that.

So Captain Falcon should fight in a car?
Jk.

 

[Diddy Kong]

...that's not what I'm insinuating. Obviously Sakurai can give him the works with all sorts of cool **** he couldn't do in his game. But why not use a character that has more canon stuff to work with instead of making everything up?

Exactly.

Like having Impa over Sheik.

 

[Vintage Creep]

Haha alright man peace then. I'll wait for Kuma to tear me a new one.

Hey dude you were this close to get on his ignore list, you got lucky.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Nearly half of the games in the Fire Emblem series had multiplayer. FE6, FE7, FE8, FE11, and FE12 all had it. FE13 had a co-op multiplayer (but not a versus like the previously listed games). So basically every handheld game in the series had multiplayer in it.

Word? That's interesting, I wonder why they stopped/ omitted that feature from NA titles.

Metal Gear Solid V was formally announced today, however, the more interesting news is that David Hayter won't be returning to voice Snake. This is particularly peculiar since Snake's Japanese voice actor is returning to voice Naked Snake/Big Boss in MGS5. When someone asked Kojima about this, he basically gave a non-answer.

This game has only been officially confirmed for 360 and PS3.

However, keep in mind that when the Wii U was hacked, there was a listing for "Metal Gear", so its possible that MGS5 will happen for it (that or the Wii U will get a late port of Rising).

There is a chance that it could be coming to the WiiU, Nintendo did say that they are going to broadcast a 3rd party-centric Nintendo Direct sometime in the new future. This can be on of their bombshells.

 

[volbound1700]

We must be tranquil as a forest, but on fire within'

@vol you must have forgotten about melee, when we got no names over bigger Nintendo characters, seriously adding pointless 3rd parties over other characters that deserve to be in is pointless

Besides wouldn't Nintendo benefit more from smaller series and characters being in and having there popularity increased, or having to go through legal troubles to get 10 characters to increase the sales of one game

I wouldn't call Peach, Zelda, Ganondorf, Bowser, Young Link, Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, or even Falco no names. All were very well known at the time.

They say that Little Mac would be a boring addition due to boxing solely focusing and encouraging the use of punching, but actually that's a charm in it's own right. Boxing is a sport that requires reflexes and strategy in order to take down the opponent, as simply being reckless can be fatal. I would like the idea of a type of play that centers around how boxing is.

Funny, I feel the opposite. I think a boxing move-set would be nice to have in Smash and is generally missing. Also, Sakurai can be very creative and I have faith in him. Little Mac will likely be one of the E3 reveals.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dr.Mario isn't that much of a big name. And if he is, it's cause of the Mario part.

All in all, I felt Brawl had better newcomers than Melee. Only examles to this are Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, Marth and Ganondorf. Funny thing: all these characters where amongst the most popular around that time.

Brawl had real big name newcomers as: Diddy, Sonic, MetaKnight, King Dedede, Wario, Olimar, Toon Link, Ike and Snake.

 

[N3ON]

The only "big" names I can imagine for Smash 4 would be Ridley, Little Mac, Toad, any third parties, and possibly K. Rool. Oh, and Mii. I could be forgetting somebody, but overall, the noticeable decline of "big" names is pretty apparent. Not that I'm complaining, I honestly prefer the lesser-known characters.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mewtwo and Roy could also count. Seeing as they're so immensively popular now after being cut from Brawl. Especially Mewtwo. And I'd guess any Mario newcomer would be called a big name at this point. Except for Waluigi or Dr.Mario.

 

[N3ON]

Mewtwo and Roy could also count. Seeing as they're so immensively popular now after being cut from Brawl. Especially Mewtwo. And I'd guess any Mario newcomer would be called a big name at this point. Except for Waluigi or Dr.Mario.

Yeah, those two would be big names, but I guess I wasn't counting veterans. I mostly meant characters that hadn't been included before. And I suppose Bowser Jr and Paper Mario could be "big names", but I still wouldn't but them at the level as the other ones I listed, even if more people are familiar with Jr now than like Ridley, Little Mac, or K. Rool. Plus no remaining Mario characters are as iconic as Toad. Popularity doesn't necessarily translate to being a "big" or iconic character, but of the ones you listed, I'd definitely agree on Mewtwo, he's bigger than all the ones I mentioned, except maybe the Mii.

 

[Big-Cat]

"Unless you're not bothering to look at more than three moves." More aggressive than is necessary for a simple debate.

You think that's aggressive. I would hate to see what happens if I called you something terrible.

My "more than three moves" line was about looking at spending more than 2 minutes going through a moveset and making some generic statement about them. As I mentioned, there are plenty of standout characters for how they play. The example I always cite is Xiaoyu. She is most definitely not your most "traditional" character. She is a character that moves around the opponent with her stances, crushing moves, flips, playing keep out, etc. She's also one of the hardest characters to learn because of learning how to apply her moves properly and how to be smart with her in general. She's actually considered the most mobile character in the game. In comparison to Steve who ducks and weaves, Xiaoyu crouches, sidesteps gratuitously, parries, and will actively move out of the way for the opponent to whiff.

Anyway, let's forget my definition of badass. So okay Mac's a BAN. But he isn't a BAN that punches and kicks and throws and flips and rolls, as I'm sure the Street Fighter BANs do. He punches. And that's it. Yes, there is a huge amount of intricacy, grace, strategy, everything for boxing. But Smash CAN NOT replicate that, no matter how hard it tries. All it can do is replicate the punches. And punches are boring.

What are these things about boxing that Smash cannot replicate despite several other games doing it successfully? You keep telling us, but you never mention as to what these things are.

Well hey no **** buddy. But maybe what if a character could have canon stuff that is more than just punching? Punching is what they do to fill out a character's moveset when they've run out of actual attacks.

We have Fox who almost entirely uses kicks outside of his specials, 1,2 jabs, and throws. Why is that we can have this kind of character, but not Little Mac is on the opposite end of extremity use.

Dude okay I'm getting sick of it too. I honestly don't get where you're coming from, but I'm trying to. Please tell me how a moveset with diverse attacks, say Mario's just cause its easy, is less engaging than a moveset solely made up of punches. I really don't wanna be having this argument either because right now you sound as stupid and ignorant to me as I do to you.

Diverse attacks doesn't mean that the moves all look different. As Habanero mentioned, there are as many different kinds of punches as there are kicks (as demonstrated with Fox).

A moveset isn't engaging because all the moves look different. A moveset is engaging for its versatility and depth. I'd rather have a "boring" moveset that gives me a lot to work with instead of a moveset that is all flash and entirely useless.

 

[FalKoopa]

Kuma should try his hand at a Little Mac moveset.

 

[volbound1700]

The only "big" names I can imagine for Smash 4 would be Ridley, Little Mac, Toad, any third parties, and possibly K. Rool. Oh, and Mii. I could be forgetting somebody, but overall, the noticeable decline of "big" names is pretty apparent. Not that I'm complaining, I honestly prefer the lesser-known characters.

Wow we have spent our time debating (I don't say arguing because I haven't gotten angry about your posts and I find them interesting and a joy to read) and you just made one of the major points I was making in my previous posts. You list three nintendo characters and then "any third parties."


Brawl did grab a lot of the missing Nintendo big-names which were Wario, Diddy Kong, Olimar, and King Dedede. Even Metaknight and Wolf can be considered to a degree big names. There isn't much left out there. Mewtwo's return is seen as the biggest Nintendo addition.

 

[N3ON]

Wow we have spent our time debating (I don't say arguing because I haven't gotten angry about your posts and I find them interesting and a joy to read) and you just made one of the major points I was making in my previous posts. You list three nintendo characters and then "any third parties.".

I never denied we were running out of "big" Nintendo names, or that 3rd parties would bring more hype than most of the Nintendo newcomers, I said there isn't going to be a huge addition of third-parties, and that in general the characters already included will cause the game to be successful more than any other characters that can/will be added, for the most part. Even if they are running out of "big" or iconic characters, Nintendo still has enough notable character left before they start scraping the bottom of the barrel, or resort to major use of outside parties. Yes, the third-parties Sakurai will agree to use will be big names, but that doesn't mean he's going to use more than one or two new ones.

And thanks ^_^

 

[FalKoopa]

BTW Volbound, how many 3rd parties do you EXPECT to be in Smash 4?

 

[volbound1700]

@ FalKoopa and N3ON.... I agree with both of you in that I only expect four really (Sonic, Snake, Megaman, Pac-Man). However, I feel as a policy, Smash should be open to allowing more if the third party company is open to it. The problem is that Nintendo could go after all the characters they want but the other side has to sign off on it too.

I just don't understand the posters in here that say Sonic's addition was the worse thing that has ever happened and we should have no 3rd parties at all.

 

[FalKoopa]

@ FalKoopa and N3ON.... I agree with both of you in that I only expect four really (Sonic, Snake, Megaman, Pac-Man). However, I feel as a policy, Smash should be open to allowing more if the third party company is open to it. The problem is that Nintendo could go after all the characters they want but the other side has to sign off on it too.

I just don't understand the posters in here that say Sonic's addition was the worse thing that has ever happened and we should have no 3rd parties at all.

Tbh, I'm not interested in third parties. But that's my opinion. Similarly, people will have varied opinions, you know. You don't have to agree with them.

Sakurai's Willy Nilly comment was probably made to prevent people from expecting too many third parties and getting disappointed in the end.

 

[N3ON]

I just don't understand the posters in here that say Sonic's addition was the worse thing that has ever happened and we should have no 3rd parties at all.

Those are the purists. I can understand where they're coming from I guess, Smash was original a Nintendo All-Stars crossover, and it was solely Nintendo. Back before Snake you would've gotten laughed at and completely dismissed for suggesting a third-party. However I think when used in moderation, and if they have strong ties to Nintendo, 3rd parties add to the game.

Plus I think more people are generally anti-Snake than anti-Sonic.

 

[volbound1700]

Tbh, I'm not interested in third parties. But that's my opinion. Similarly, people will have varied opinions, you know. You don't have to agree with them.

Sakurai's Willy Nilly comment was probably made to prevent people from expecting too many third parties and getting disappointed in the end.

Bingo. It was to kill the hype about all the third parties and some of the crazy ones like Goku for example. Also Sakurai is stating that it won't be easy since it takes two to tangle with each one.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

^ Well if anything, I just wish Smash Bros stays as Nintendo-only thing, as much as there's been clones of 3rd Party demands to it during all these years. Why Nintendo should let 3rd Parties invest something people absolutely seem love as a fighting game engine? (And by I mean in big quantities)

Why should Nintendo just make this yet another standard than can be made just worse or ruined by the other companies because we so need to have more series from other companies?

At the end I still regard 3rd parties as a bonus, not a´must.

 

[N3ON]

Sakurai's Willy Nilly comment was probably made to prevent people from expecting too many third parties and getting disappointed in the end.

So was Sakurai's comment about getting "one or two more third-parties" after Snake (for Brawl). Without that, there would've been chaos.

Ofc people were upset when there was in fact only one more third-party... so then the conspiracy theories started.

 

[volbound1700]

Those are the purists. I can understand where they're coming from I guess, Smash was original a Nintendo All-Stars crossover, and it was solely Nintendo. Back before Snake you would've gotten laughed at and completely dismissed for suggesting a third-party. However I think when used in moderation, and if they have strong ties to Nintendo, 3rd parties add to the game.

Plus I think more people are generally anti-Snake than anti-Sonic.

Snake is a wierd fit to me as well. Mostly because I am not a big fan of serious FPS characters being in a fun-loving, silly game like Smash. He worked because Sakurai did him well and pointed out the humorous parts of Snake.

Putting Snake in Brawl is also like sticking Masterchief, Doom Guy, Mortal Kombat characters, etc. in Smash. Even if they were eligible, they are kind of wierd fits unless done correctly.

Sonic fits a lot better because he is basically a cartoon, anthropomorphic character the same as Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Fox, etc. Even Mario is cartoony and fun like Sonic. Megaman, Bomberman, Raymon, Pac-Man, Banjo-Kazooie, etc. all fit these kind of motives for third party hence why I mention them over Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Diablo II, etc. characters (not to mention those aren't eligible in most cases).

Fire Emblem is another series that is borderline hard to fit but Sakurai made them work. They are serious sword fighters from strategy game. However, because of the way they have been done, it is hard to imagine Smash without them.

 

[Oasis_S]

ButMGSisastealthseriesandSnakecanbequitesilly...

 

[FalKoopa]

ButMGSisastealthseriesandSnakecanbequitesilly...

A bomberman stage can make great use of stealth-based strategies. lol

 

[Big-Cat]

I'll try just in terms of specials and leave it at that for now. I envisioned him a rushdown character who gets star points for landing counter hits on certain moves. The stars will power up his Up B, and Smash attacks, but a star is lost for every hit he takes and he can only hold up to three at a time.

B: Psyche Up
This move gets Mac in spirit. This move grants Mac one star stock. This move is ideal after getting a KO or if the opponent is knocked down. Not recommend for use at any other time due to you being completely open.
Side B: Spin
Spin is one of Mac's ways of getting in and can even be used for mindgames. This move dodges every attack for a small window of invincibility and has a few followups, some of which are a punch that causes a crumble on counter hit, a downward hook punch for a ground bounce, an upward hook as a combo extender, and the option to simply spin back to bait out a hit.
Down B: Swerve
Swerve is a very unique spot dodge. Unlike the normal spot dodge, this one is rather short is Mac's feet area are vulnerable. This is pretty much used as a means of dodging moves up close and in the opponent's face. What's unique about this move are that it can either be followed up with a punch to whiff punish or he can not followup with that move and simply start applying the pressure, keeping the momentum.
Up B: Uppercut
A very basic uppercut, but its uses lie in its recovery and as a combo ender. By pressing Up A+B, you can do a Star Uppercut which has mac do three uppercuts in succession should the first one hit. The first uppercut has a higher recovery than the normal uppercut which makes it uses include being a better recovery technique.

 

[Deleted member]

Well since the topic was brought up while I wasn't around to discuss it I'm gonna pull a Diddy and bring back a dead topic to give my opinion on it, sorry guys.

I'm mostly addressing this to Chrono since he was the one with the most doubts.

Anyway, in regard to Lyn, I feel it would be best as to describe where I stand and why I support the character and why I think others do.

With me, it's simple, it goes back to high school. I had a good buddy back then who introduced me to Fire Emblem after he got Path of Radiance on Christmas. We both awed at the game and how badass the main character was (Ike), but also came to like a lot of the side characters, mostly Shinon in my case, but there were others such as Stefan and Soren. Since PoR, both me and him became huge junkies of the series and set out to play all the games we could in the series. So then we moved onto FE7.

Now, FE7 stood out from the GCN game in that the sprite animations were more dynamic and gave the games a very unique sense of flair. Especially with those critical hit animations. Now upon booting up the game, the MC at that point, Lyn, really didn't stand out from Ike in regard to personality, and overall coolness. That is, UNTIL she got a critical hit on someone, which was usually rather early in the game considering she was a Myrmidon-like class.

My reaction to first seeing her land a crit hit back then would best be described as such:

"Holy ****!! Lyn just owned that guy, he stood no ****ing chance!!" (this was 2006 mind you, don't forget we talked like that back then).

I think it's fair to say that the Myrmidons and Swordmasters in the GBA Fire Emblems have some of the best CritHit animations, alongside the lone Assassin Jaffar. The high speed movement and strong IMPACT of the attack really left an impression on my young and simple mind.

Since that point, I (and I'm sure many other players as well) were inclined to send Lyn out into battle just to see her land another critical hit, which usually ended up with a Maxed out Lyn well before her promotion.

Anyway, once Brawl was announced I remember talking with my friends and mentioning how cool it would be to have Ike and Lyn in Smash, and all of us agreed that Lyn would certainly be an cool character to have because of her high-speed swordplay. All of us were competitive Melee vets, but really we weren't looking at Roster Diversity, nor Series representation, nor advanced fighting game mechanics. We simply wanted a character that could fight like Lyn fights because we thought it would be fun to have a character like that.

So in short, I and other people support Lyn, simply because she's the only character we know that could lend that fighting style, arguments like "she could be a clone," or "so and so can also be unique" are fickle strawmen, because they don't capture the essence of why I truly support the character. In the long run, I could care less about roster diversity, or series representation or any of that other stuff. Ultimately my support for the character goes back to a young era and the memories I held with my good buddies from high-school and thinking how cool it would be to have a character that could play like that. We were young high-schoolers reading Manga like Bleach and Ruroni Kenshin/Samurai X both of which placed a huge emphasis on swordplay, and honestly no matter how much others try to argue, the fact remains that the only character that can give me that playstyle is Lyn.

I imagine that when people say "diversity" or "uniqueness" that they were also left by the same impression from Lyn and FE7 as I was. In that regard, the support for Lyn is as "pure" (for lack of a better word) as the support for Roy for example. The Roy fans mostly support him because they liked the character in Melee. And I think it's fair to mention that IS is certainly aware of the fanbase built around Lyn by those who enjoyed FE7 over in the west. That's why they've given her a spotlight over Eliwood and Hector, both of whom are argued to be better units by the hard-core fans, AND more important to the story. But as Horsetai had said, it's not about the importance to the series. Really, it's about how much people like the character. Does that turn Smash into a sort of popularity contest? Yeah, in a way...

Last bit, this is not to say that of course there aren't bandwagoners and waifufags that support Lyn. But really, when you look at it, EVERY character has that. For one, Roy has fangirls. But that aside, there are many people who have their top picks, but are still undecided on a couple and thus jump back an forth on what they choose to support. Hell, I can admit to this in regard to the Saki, Isaac, Shulk deal. I mostly support Saki, but I'm overall undecided, same with Toad and Paper Mario. So discrediting support for a character because it's a bandwagon is rather unfair. Support is support simple as that. It's like politics really.... blegh...

Anyway, this is not to say that I feel Lyn really has a solid shot this time around, nor that I feel she will get in. However, I still hold my opinion and my support. All in all, I've been able to show people what I like about Smash all in all through this character. I've been able to show how important gameplay is, as really, that's all I really look for in a videogame, and the coolness factor I had found from Lyn many years ago is what drove me further into competitive gaming.

Well, to those who were patient enough to put up with my rant. Godspeed. Hahahaha. I just wanted to get that out of the way is all and hopefully clear up some doubts and dissent.

 

[volbound1700]

Kind of off topic but for fun I thought about what if they made a game like Smash that collected great PC characters in the past. I was thinking of this since Steam is making a new console that will likely include many PC titles.

Companies: Blizzard, ID Software, Sierra, Activision, Maxis, EA, Microprose, Steam, Valve, Ubisoft (yes I know many of these own others).

Characters (game):

Doom Guy (Doom 2)
Zergling (Starcraft)
Orc (Warcraft)
Sim (The Sims)
Commander Keen (Keen)
Francis (Left 4 Dead)
Coach (Left 4 Dead2)
Zoey (Left 4 Dead)
Nick (Left 4 Dead2)
Witch (Left 4 Dead)
GLaDOs (Portal)
Sarah Kerrigan - Queen of Blades (Starcraft)
Maceman (Lords of the Realm II)
Paul Atreides (Dune)
Dr. Gordon Freeman (Half-Life)
Imp (Doom)
King Roland Ironfist (Heroes of Might and Magic II)
Kilgor (Heroes of Might and Magic III)
Emilia Nighthaven (Heroes of Might and Magic IV)
Paladin (Warcraft 2 - WOW)
Diablo (Diablo)
Necromancer (Diablo II)
Rogue (Diablo I)
Witch Hunter (Diablo III)
X-Com Alien (X-Com)
Jim Raynor (Starcraft II)
Space Invader (Space Invaders)
Marine (Civilization)



Haha feel free to name others. That would actually be a neat idea for a Smash competitor

 

[Deleted member]

Double posts... Yay...

Oh the wonders of Spanish technology...

 

[FalKoopa]

I love to read, so rants and walls of text are always welcome.

@Volbound
No Super Bubsy? Heart = Broken.

 

[Oasis_S]

Would you/anyone view Lyn and Takamaru as in competition with each other.

Seems to me Lyn would be rather pointless when you could add Takamaru, who would play similarly but with his own samurai/ninja flare that would feel much more FRESH to the roster as a whole, especially alongside all that old-timey Japanesey stuff he'd bring with his stage/music. You'd get more out of Takamaru, basically. Despite all the different katana-related martial arts Kuma might be able to list off.

 

[volbound1700]

Some more character ideas for PC Smash:

Antaran (Master of Orion Series)
Strogg (Quake)
Hitler (Wolfenstein/Spear of Destiny)
Hunter/Travellor (Oregon Trail)
Carmen Sandiego (Where is Carmen Sandiego)

Also there is a host of Command and Conquer characters to choose from if you want to bring them in.

Leaving off Age of Empires because owned by Microsoft.

 

[Big-Cat]

Would you/anyone view Lyn and Takamaru as in competition with each other.

Seems to me Lyn would be rather pointless when you could add Takamaru, who would play similarly but with his own samurai/ninja flare that would feel much more FRESH to the roster as a whole, especially alongside all that old-timey Japanesey stuff he'd bring with his stage/music. You'd get more out of Takamaru, basically. Despite all the different katana-related martial arts Kuma might be able to list off.

Actually, no. They may have similar aesthetics, but watching a video of Takamaru's game will tell you that he would be projectile heavy. While Lyn can use a bow, she's not particular known for it.

 

[FalKoopa]

Lyn and Takamaru could be semi clones. One major difference: Takamaru uses Ninja stars; Lyn uses a bow.

 

[volbound1700]

I love to read, so rants and walls of text are always welcome.

@Volbound
No Super Bubsy? Heart = Broken.

Not familiar with game series but I know I left a ton off on my list above and overrepresented some series like Left 4 Dead and Diablo.


Another good one is Soldier Ant (Sim Ant)

 

[FlareHabanero]

We'll, it's pretty safe to say that we do support characters because there is some sort of desire. What that desire is does vary, but generally speaking there is a reason. True passion however shows that this desire is genuine and not simply harboring on fallacy ideals, which is unfortunately not expressed enough.

 

[Oasis_S]

Actually, no. They may have similar aesthetics, but watching a video of Takamaru's game will tell you that he would be projectile heavy. While Lyn can use a bow, she's not particular known for it.

Because Takamaru will have a move where he throws a ninja star doesn't quite negate that they both may have similar swordplay.

Unless you want to go the "One move can effect how the rest of the moveset turns out" route, but even then I'd say you're ignoring the bigger picture.