Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Vintage Creep]

Jesus man learn to sarcasm. I'm trying to show you how stupid you're being. Their body types don't have to be identical, or even ****ing close to each other. Paper Mario is closer in body type to G&W than Mario is to Kazuya.

tl;dr IT WORKS SHUT UP.

 

[peeup]

"SHUT UP GUYS I'M RIGHT YOUR WRONG WAAAAAAAAAH!"

Okay fair enough that was a bit strong of me. But for real, he keeps asking for evidence that it can work. And there is evidence that it can work. I have shown it to him.

 

[Metal Overlord]

This is going is circles

Spoiler

"If a costume is supposed to be aesthetical, any minimal detail on the character must be preserved, hence me asking whether or not that Parappa skin for Ness had any tweaks made."

"if the PM model recieved similar tweaks for the G&W model, what is to stop that from working?"

"The idea of a costume is not recieve any tweaks at all and just be a model swap, like what happens in Brawl with Wario. From the moment you tweak the hitboxes and such, you're already changing, albeit slightly, the character's gameplay"

"The paper mario costume isn't gonna give G&W new powers, or change his hitbox, it should be only an appearance thing."

^back to the top.^

Again. Would/how tweaking the model to fit G&W ruin the swap?

Moon Monkey

My man

How is the model swap NOT going to change his hitboxes? You do realize why the hitboxes change if you were to make Paper Mario an alt of G&W (which doesn't make sense in the first place, but whatever, we'll run with it for argument's sake), right? Hitboxes have to fit the size and shape of the character it belongs to, and since Paper Mario and G&W are obviously different in both of those manner, the hitboxes would have to change in order to fit the model swap. I think that's what you aren't getting, there's no way to make PM an alt of G&W without changing his hitboxes

 

[peeup]

How is the model swap NOT going to change his hitboxes? You do realize why the hitboxes change if you were to make Paper Mario an alt of G&W (which doesn't make sense in the first place, but whatever, we'll run with it for argument's sake), right? Hitboxes have to fit the size and shape of the character it belongs to, and since Paper Mario and G&W are obviously different in both of those manner, the hitboxes would have to change in order to fit the model swap. I think that's what you aren't getting, there's no way to make PM an alt of G&W without changing his hitboxes

...just like it would be impossible to give Kazuya a Mario costume and not change his hitboxes?

 

[Vintage Creep]

...just like it would be impossible to give Kazuya a Mario costume and not change his hitboxes?

BUT WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS IN SMASH BROS.


WH1D85F5354462C0796F23B687D6FBD1E7YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

 

[peeup]

BUT WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS IN SMASH BROS.


WH1D85F5354462C0796F23B687D6FBD1E7YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Because that's not what I'm arguing so don't use it as a counterpoint

 

[Moon Monkey]

...just like it would be impossible to give Kazuya a Mario costume and not change his hitboxes?

For some reason I think only you understand...
I see what everyone is getting at, but when I look at Tekken and even Street Fighter alternate costumes I know such things ARE feasible.

 

[FalKoopa]

...just like it would be impossible to give Kazuya a Mario costume and not change his hitboxes?

Sakurai won't do it. We all know that.

 

[Vintage Creep]

Because that's not what I'm arguing so don't use it as a counterpoint

Then everything could work. Even K. Rool as an alt of Donkey Kong. Why the hell not.

*angels crying*

 

[peeup]

Sakurai won't do it. We all know that.

Haha again, man I'm not saying it will happen, or has any likelihood of happening. I'm saying it's so easily possible, it's dumb to say it isn't because of difference in body shape.

EDIT: @Vintage, yes it is possible. Now I'd rather see K Rool as a character than a costume change. Same with Paper Mario. But K Rool has a better likelihood (IMO) of being playable than PM, so I'd like to see PM just aesthetically as an alt costume for either Mario or G&W.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Costume =/= model swap

Reread my post champ

 

[peeup]

Costume =/= model swap

Reread my post champ

Alright then reread my posts, I ain't arguing for a model swap, I'm arguing for a costume. Geez.

EDIT: Don't reread my posts, because I probably said model swap at one point or another. But the whole time I meant alternate costume. Because yes a perfect model swap would change hitboxes in 95% of cases.

 

[FalKoopa]

Haha again, man I'm not saying it will happen, or has any likelihood of happening..

Then what's the point of discussing it ???

 

[FlareHabanero]

Then what's the point of discussing it?!

People like to discuss stupid stuff. I try to squeeze in intelligent stuff, but people apparently hate that stuff.

 

[Metal Overlord]

I wasn't responding to you though, now was I, peeup? I was quoting Moon Monkey

If that's your argument, then I understand that, I'm just addressing the people who are arguing for a model swap

 

[Moon Monkey]

Then what's the point of discussing it ???

It all started with this:

This is true. Call me a Debbie Downer but I find Paper Mario highly unlikely. I think at most he'll make a cool Mr. G&W alternate costume.

 

[peeup]

As Moon said, it started with this:

This is true. Call me a Debbie Downer but I find Paper Mario highly unlikely. I think at most he'll make a cool Mr. G&W alternate costume.

Boom.

I wasn't responding to you though, now was I, peeup? I was quoting Moon Monkey

If that's your argument, then I understand that, I'm just addressing the people who are arguing for a model swap

Derp gonna go stick my foot in my mouth. But I'm glad we understand each other.

Then what's the point of discussing it ???

Because someone else brought it up and someone else else disagreed, and that's what discussion is? Literally 100% of what is being discussed in the roster thread for a game that as no more information other than the fact that it will exist is completely speculative, why are we discussing anything?

 

[Frostwraith]

Such compelling evidence proving such irrefutable arguments.

 

[peeup]

Such compelling evidence proving such irrefutable arguments.

Thanks for giving me evidence backing your claim in that post there bud.

 

[Frostwraith]

Now who's the one who can't notice sarcasm, eh, Mr. peeup?

 

[Deleted member]

Moon Monkey

My man

How is the model swap NOT going to change his hitboxes? You do realize why the hitboxes change if you were to make Paper Mario an alt of G&W (which doesn't make sense in the first place, but whatever, we'll run with it for argument's sake), right? Hitboxes have to fit the size and shape of the character it belongs to, and since Paper Mario and G&W are obviously different in both of those manner, the hitboxes would have to change in order to fit the model swap. I think that's what you aren't getting, there's no way to make PM an alt of G&W without changing his hitboxes

I hate to be THAT guy, but it can be done, and it has.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6RQFeUk2cQ

As for the hitbox, while you're correct in that hitboxes have to be the same, that doesn't necessarily mean that the MODEL has to fit the hitbox to the letter. Take Punch Time Explosion XL for example (lol, I know its a crappy game, but hear me out); Captain K'nuckles has a Captain K'neecaps model swap as his alternate costume. K'neecaps' model has one arm way shorter than the other, but the hitboxes are still the same as regular K'nuckles when he punches.

 

[peeup]

Now who's the one who can't notice sarcasm, eh, Mr. peeup?

Clearly still you...

 

[Moon Monkey]

Moon Monkey

My man

How is the model swap NOT going to change his hitboxes? You do realize why the hitboxes change if you were to make Paper Mario an alt of G&W (which doesn't make sense in the first place, but whatever, we'll run with it for argument's sake), right? Hitboxes have to fit the size and shape of the character it belongs to, and since Paper Mario and G&W are obviously different in both of those manner, the hitboxes would have to change in order to fit the model swap. I think that's what you aren't getting, there's no way to make PM an alt of G&W without changing his hitboxes

Originally, (As you can see above) I stated that I would like to see Paper Mario as an alternate costume for G&W.
I was then told that an alternate costume wouldn't work.
I then brought up the possibilities of a model swap.
I was told again, that wouldn't work.
I was getting the impression that it would be difficult borderline impossible for this to work.

Now if the Parapa the Rapper and Kazuya swap was possible. That means that one of these (alternate costume or model swap) must be possible.

Now I never really cared about shoe horning PM as a G&W alternate costume/model swap/whatever. it's just that i am going into game design field and i was curious about the possibilities of alternate costumes.

 

[Frostwraith]

@Golden: that G&W Paper Mario only furthers my point. It looks ****ing terrible.

No justice done to Paper Mario whatsoever.

 

[Big-Cat]

...just like it would be impossible to give Kazuya a Mario costume and not change his hitboxes?

Except the Tekken costumes are essentially cosplays. They're strictly cosmetic and are the same model with different clothes on (or something to that effect). I have several different cosplay costumes in Tag 2 and those don't change anything that isn't cosmetic save for Luka-Jaycee being able to whack people with a fish.

Model swaps like replacing characters entirely cannot be done without having nigh identical builds.

@Golden
Even so, that doesn't make it a good idea. If there's one thing people hate in fighting games, it's hitbox dissonance.

 

[Opossum]

Just gonna ignore the Paper Mario mumbo jumbo to say something completely unrelated.

Golden Sun was always popular, so this is no surprise. The issue I see with Issac is his second party status. I have a theory that they only look towards 1st party characters where Nintendo fully owns the series. If Issac doesn't get in, it may solidify this theory. Given, he's likely the only second party character with a fair shot.

Eh, I really don't see why they'd have anything against 2nd Parties. Pokemon's already in. While yes, they sort of fall under different circumstances, they're still 2nd Party. If anything, it may be reasonable to say that the reason that more haven't been added is that Sakurai tried to get the rest of the "A-Listers" in with Brawl. Most of the 2nd Parties are lower "listers." Now that the pool's run a bit more dry, I feel that now they have a slightly better chance than they did before.

And Starfy has a fair shot, too. *grumbles*

 

[Moon Monkey]

@Golden: that G&W Paper Mario only furthers my point. It looks ****ing terrible.

No justice done to Paper Mario whatsoever.

It's not like the costume can't be refined... This was obviously a decent amateur-ish swap.
I'm sure with the right amount of time it can be done quite good.

and as i suggested before adding things like making Kooper the turtle in his B+air and using the wooden hammer would help do the series justice.

 

[Big-Cat]

Since we're on the topic of costumes, can anyone guess who's in who in these costumes I made?

 

[Frostwraith]

Except the Tekken costumes are essentially cosplays. They're strictly cosmetic and are the same model with different clothes on (or something to that effect). I have several different cosplay costumes in Tag 2 and those don't change anything that isn't cosmetic save for Luka-Jaycee being able to whack people with a fish.

Model swaps like replacing characters entirely cannot be done without having nigh identical builds.

@Golden
Even so, that doesn't make it a good idea. If there's one thing people hate in fighting games, it's hitbox dissonance.

This so much.

It's not like the costume can't be refined... This was obviously a decent amateur-ish swap.
I'm sure with the right amount of time it can be done quite good.

and as i suggested before adding things like making Kooper the turtle in his B+air and using the wooden hammer would help do the series justice.

As long as the animations are shared, it will never be good, because Paper Mario doesn't move like Mr. Game & Watch. He has fluid movements unlike G&W, who has frame-by-frame movement reminiscent of his original games.

Yeah, Paper Mario's totally gonna bash with a party member as if it was a weapon. Ridiculous premise at best.

 

[Moon Monkey]

@ KumOso I give up.

 

[Big-Cat]

As long as the animations are shared, it will never be good, because Paper Mario doesn't move like Mr. Game & Watch. He has fluid movements unlike G&W, who has frame-by-frame movement reminiscent of his original games.

Yeah, Paper Mario's totally gonna bash with a party member as if it was a weapon. Ridiculous premise at best.

Every character has frame-by-frame movement. I think you're looking for "choppy" animation.

 

[Frostwraith]

Every character has frame-by-frame movement. I think you're looking for "choppy" animation.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Mr. Game & Watch's alt costume should be that hat from his emblem.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Give everyone a hat. Hat's make every game better, I mean look at Team Fortress 2!

 

[Moon Monkey]

As long as the animations are shared, it will never be good, because Paper Mario doesn't move like Mr. Game & Watch. He has fluid movements unlike G&W, who has frame-by-frame movement reminiscent of his original games.

Yeah, Paper Mario's totally gonna bash with a party member as if it was a weapon. Ridiculous premise at best.

Well obviously, they wouldn't move the same. The main point was to swap G&W's appearance with Paper Mario. Me, myself? I'm was fine with that. If the movement is bothering you that is your personal issue (again it was just a suggestion, if you disagree i'm not fighting that). You probably have a higher standard for "good" than me. which is apparent. I'm a SSB VVhore that will settle for anything... even Brawl.

but i now have video and image confirmation that such things are in fact possible. it just needs refinement from the right people.

 

[Frostwraith]

Well obviously, they wouldn't move the same. The main point was to swap G&W's appearance with Paper Mario. Me, myself? I'm was fine with that. If the movement is bothering you that is your personal issue. You probably have a higher standard for "good" than me. which is apparent.

but i now have video and image confirmation that such things are in fact possible. it just needs refinement from the right people.

Having Paper Mario move like a G&W character is an insult to anyone who's played Paper Mario, pure and simple.

It's possible? Yes. It's good? Hell no.

By that logic, we can have Pikachu as an alt for Ganondorf!

Is it possible? Yes. Is it good? Just look at the damn image to see how "good" it is.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Well that is a stretch... literally
Mr. G&W and Paper Mario are at least similar heights.
And from that video Golden provided, it wasn't that bad. At least I tried to find SOME similarities between the 2 characters in terms of proportions.

But yes, by this logic Pikachu could be a Gannon swap. Pikachu just needs... more muscle tweaks for this to work.

 

[FlareHabanero]

You know, I do hope that Pit get's more power in the next game. I feel as though his power isn't exactly good enough at times. Maybe simply nerfing the stale move negation would be good enough for that.

Ness and Yoshi should also get better recovery options. Both are vulnerable to gimping more so then other characters.

Also Captain Falcon not being bad would be appreciated.

(Just trying to think of something less dumb to talk about)

 

[Frostwraith]

Well that is a stretch... literally
Mr. G&W and Paper Mario are at least similar heights.
And from that video Golden provided, it wasn't that bad. At least I tried to find SOME similarities between the 2 characters in terms of proportions.

Is "wasn't that bad" an euphemism for "it was clunky, horrible and blatantly unfitting for Paper Mario"? I'd hope so.

And I'm starting to get that feeling this argument is simply attempting to mix water with olive oil.

 

[Moon Monkey]

You know, I do hope that Pit get's more power in the next game. I feel as though his power isn't exactly good enough at times. Maybe simply nerfing the stale move negation would be good enough for that.

Ness and Yoshi should also get better recovery options. Both are vulnerable to gimping more so then other characters.

Also Captain Falcon not being bad would be appreciated.

(Just trying to think of something less dumb to talk about)

Oh alright! Fair enough. We've entertained this topic long enough!
Pit should definitely have that Angelic Gundam as an alternate costume from Uprising