Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Frostwraith]

You're clearly not into teh massive lulz and blowing up vans.

No? You may be wrong...

EDIT: Off-topic, but I notice some people are still using color tags for text colors. Fear no longer! They're back, but default to off.

Check my post in the New Smashboards feedback thread.

 

[Deleted member]

This is true. Call me a Debbie Downer but I find Paper Mario highly unlikely. I think at most he'll make a cool Mr. G&W alternate costume.

Paper Mario could very well be the RPG Mario seeing as the current Mario represents the Platformer Mario. He could have moves that derive entirely from all of his RPG Games, currently at 8 and counting.

Moves he could have include his Hammer and Bounce Attacks as well as different fireball moves and Shells.

@Chrono, thanks for posting that, I was going to post, but I thought I might as well wait considering not much has changed since 380. But its always nice to see people throw out their opinions/comments on my poll. Later tonight I'll definitely come back and respond.

Also, I've hit reddit, SWF, NeoGaf, Tumblr. I plan on hitting allisbrawl, and possibly..... well.... I mean I should, considering it's a big Smash community and I'm trying to widen the poll's reaches.... gamefaqs. Is there anywhere else I could take the poll? I looked around shoryuken, but I don't think there is an appropriot place to take it there. Any suggestions help. I'll probably drop it off in the SSB4 thread over at Nsider2. Bit that doesn't usually give much results.

Shoryuken and Dustloop might not be bad places to take it to to be honest. There ARE Smash fans lurking those areas.

Also, might I suggest making a clone poll for 4chan? There IS a large Smash install base there, and who knows what you might get after all...

Also, Gonintendo.com is a decent place to study.


Anyway, offtopic discussion. I just got back from watching Django. HOLY **** was that awesome. Simple plot, but the execution was masterful. Tarantino never fails to impress. Easily one of my all time favorites, everything about it is just... so... GOOD.

 

[Moon Monkey]

It's still a ridiculous idea. Paper Mario and G&W have nothing in common other than the flatness.

Let's check their body shapes to see if they could share the same hitboxes...

...methinks not.

Look at my post before that to understand where ikm getting at

 

[Frostwraith]

Look at my post before that to understand where ikm getting at

You said PM as a GW costume, for that to work, both models (Paper Mario and GW) have to share the same set of hitboxes. The problem is that GW and PM are differently shaped, thus you can't apply the same hitboxes without looking awkward or even glitchy and nonsensical.

Costumes don't work like how you're thinking. Both versions must have an identical body shape, which Paper Mario and G&W don't have.

All this in consideration, your argument is invalid.

 

[SmashChu]

@Chrono: I agree with most of what you said, but I want to throw my two cents. I've been bad about making my post more "soapbox" like, so let's have some discussion.

Not much has really changed. The last time I made commentary though, Goroh was one of the ones leading the pack in the green category, now he is clearly falling behind the rest of that category.

Which is very weird if you ask me.

Consider this. If you are 18 now, than means you were born in 1995. You were about 6 when Melee came out and 8 when GX came out. You were also only 13 when Brawl came out. There are a lot of people who are playing and discussion Smash who never really played F-Zero and Brawl was likely their first Smash. I think the issue with it being so long since an F-Zero game is a lot of adults now barely know F-Zero and Goroh as well. I wouldn't be surprised if his support is coming from older fans and those people probably found the pool first.

Isaac:
Isaac is basically another Little Mac, but with slightly less popularity. He is basically the Marth of Golden Sun (the protagonist of the first game of the series, yet by far the most popular main protagonist overall). Like Punch-Out, Golden Sun received a new installment after Brawl's release, although it was not received as well as its GBA predecessors. I am really surprised about how much Isaac's popularity has held considering the GBA games were released a decade ago. As with Little Mac, amongst series that do not already have a playable character in Smash Bros., Isaac is one of the best choices. Camelot may have to make a new Golden Sun as their next project once they get done releasing Mario Golf for the 3DS, considering they may not have the resources to make a game for the Wii U. However, Isaac being amongst the West's most wanted characters after all these years really shows the staying power and cult following that the Golden Sun series has. One might say he is possibly competing with Shulk (another blonde-haired RPG protagonist that has a cult following), however, although Xenoblade has much accolades, it never enjoyed the sales success that the GBA Golden Sun games enjoyed. The re-release of the GBA Golden Sun games for the Virtual Console could spark even more interest in Isaac (and possibly the series overall), or at the very least help Isaac maintain the interest he already has.

Golden Sun was always popular, so this is no surprise. The issue I see with Issac is his second party status. I have a theory that they only look towards 1st party characters where Nintendo fully owns the series. If Issac doesn't get in, it may solidify this theory. Given, he's likely the only second party character with a fair shot.

Shulk:
Shulk is pretty much riding the waves of the cult following and accolades that Xenoblade has. Unlike Isaac though, much less people have played Xenoblade though (a used copy at this point is $60+), which is probably the primary reason why there is less interest for him. He is also a character from a stand alone game (though "X" may change that). However, considering that he is one of the few noteworthy "new" characters to show up since Brawl's release, Sakurai may be more lenient on him. If Shulk turns out to be a protagonist in "X" I expect his popularity to increase further, its also possible that "X"'s main protagonist (whoever that is) eats Shulk's lunch and basically causes the interest in Shulk to depreciate.

I think Shulk is fine where he is. Xenoblade is a cult hit for sure and his popularity shows that.

Waluigi:
Perhaps the most surprising character to be as high as he is. Waluigi is definitely not as important to the main series as Bowser Jr. and Toad are, but yet seems to have more fans. I think this primarily comes from Waluigi having much more of a personality than Bowser Jr. and Toad, and his overall "meme" status (see Brawl in the Family). I think overall he is probably the least likely of the four major candidates for a Mario newcomer (the other three being Toad, Bowser Jr., and Paper Mario), since his only advantage is "popularity" of which even that its only a slight leap compared to the other characters. I think if Waluigi were to have a role outside of being merely just another face on the roster to the Mario spinoffs, he would become a strong candidate for inclusion for Smash 5.

Waluigi has gotten a lot more popular over time. I don't think Brawl in the family is the sole reason. People have warmed up to the character and a lot of people want to see him in a real game. I also think, what has helped, is age. To people who are 18 today, Waluigi doesn't feel like a filler. Mario Tennis came out in 2000. If you were born in 1995, you were 5 when the game came out. To you, Waluigi seems normal. There is also the fact that he has a crazy personality. Charles Martinet seems to like him, and Sakurai seems to too. He was an assist trophy. Also, Doc was a character, so I don't think that Waluigi has never been in a main game would bother him.

Ghirahim:
Ghirahim, like Midna during pre-Brawl, has a lot of requests for Smash 4 as a result of being a major character in the most recently released home console Zelda. Skyward Sword being perhaps the most weakly received home console 3D Zelda, is probably the main reason why interest in him is not higher. There is definitely far more interest in him than any other potential Zelda newcomer, however, considering how the character (like Midna), is probably just another one-shot, Sakurai will probably skip over him, even if he does end up using Skyward Sword as the basis for the designs for Link and Zelda. However, if Zelda does end up getting a newcomer, he is amongst the top candidates to be selected. However, I think like with Midna, interest in him will depreciate once we see the next home console Zelda.

One thing to point out is that Zelda had a lot more competition during Brawl. No one could agree on what character they wanted. This time, everyone seems to agree on Ghirahim. I take a wait and see position on this character. He is a one shot, but we're not sure how much of an issue it is. We assume this based on Brawl, but this everyone agree on a Zelda character. I think it's fair to say that one shot characters wont happen if he doesn't get in.

Pac-Man
Pac-Man is at the top of the list for the drop after Bowser Jr. Pac-Man being at the top is primarily due to him hailing from possibly the most iconic arcade game next to Donkey Kong, as well as Namco developing Smash 4. That Pac-Man is as low as he is shows how little interest there is to add another third-party newcomer outside of Mega Man. I do think though there is a good chance we will get a Namco character in Smash 4 (possibly even more than one) and Pac-Man is one of the top candidates for that. I think some sort of Namco character (of which the top candidates would be Pac-Man or a Tales character) is amongst the top candidates for a newcomer at the E3 2013 Smash 4 unveil.

I disagree. If anything, there is very little chance for a Namco character. They have already confirmed that Sakurai has full control and that Namco developers have little say. I believe the director of Tales was asking if people could back a Tales character so they could get in. If he can't just ask Sakurai, then I think it's doubtful. There is also the issue no one in the company wants their character in, or that they have a lack of interest. Sakurai has also said that he wont add characters willy nilly. I don't think a Namco character will happen. People assume there will be because Namco is making it. However, consider A) that there was no Game Arts character in Smash and B)that there were only 2 third party characters when it was agreed that 3 would happen.

Zoroark:
Zoroark is probably the most iconic Pokemon from the Black/White generation, however, he never caught on like Lucario did (probably due to being seen as too much of a retread of him), this even though Black/White was received better than Diamond/Pearl. However, Zoroark being this high in the poll, is impressive considering the announcement of Pokemon X/Y and announcement of Mewtwo's return in the latest Pokemon movie. However, I think while he is still plausible for Smash 4, he may have missed his chance.

I agree. Didn't you say interest in Japan has dropped off for him.

Toad:
I am really surprised that Toad is not higher than he is. He is a very iconic Mario character and has been with the Super Mario franchise since the very beginning. He is the only character left at this point that has been playable in the Mario platformers not yet playable in Smash Bros. I think the primary reason for why Toad is not the most wanted Mario newcomer despite his iconic status and Mario series seniority is due to being seen as "bland" and already being involved for one of Peach's special moves for two games going on now. I think though interest in Toad has been massively helped by the New Super Mario Bros. games as now I have seen far more interest in him as a playable character than I have ever seen for any other Smash Bros. game.

People like him, but it may not translate into Smash. Also, there are younger players who don't see him as important (maybe)

Samurai Goroh:
Samurai Goroh is definitely by far the preferred choice for a second F-Zerro character, however, there is definitely less interest for him than any other character in this poll outside of the three bottom tier characters. Like with Krystal, I think one of primary culprits is his last game appearance having been released so long ago (in Goroh's case being late 2004). I think Goroh could be doing a lot better even in this environment (especially when looking at characters like Isaac), considering how depreciated the pool of potential newcomers are this time around.

Again, I think age plays a roll in it.

I'm confident in him. Sakurai thought he was important enough to be an assist trophy. There is also latent demand for an F-Zero character.

Mona:
While I think Mona is probably the most wanted possible Wario newcomer, I think its basically akin to being the tallest ******. There is just little interest in there being a Wario newcomer despite the Wario series being bigger than many of the series in Smash Bros. I think if Sakurai for some reason skips on Palutena, Mona would be one of his top picks for a female newcomer.

That's kind of funny.

The only reason why Krystal was so highly revered was because of her staff and general spite towards clones. Even back in the days people were skeptical of her, and for good reason too. It's not like she was even that attractive to begin with.

One thing that Help Krystal was the leak. Basically, there was a "leak" on a voice actor's page. She mentioned she was doing the voice of ZSS, Knuckle Joe, and Krystal. The character was talked about at the time, so it likely threw her into overdrive as people assumed she would be in. Basically, when she wasn't in, the bubble burst.

 

[Moon Monkey]

You said PM as a GW costume, for that to work, both models (Paper Mario and GW) have to share the same set of hitboxes. The problem is that GW and PM are differently shaped, thus you can't apply the same hitboxes without looking awkward or even glitchy and nonsensical.

Costumes don't work like how you're thinking. Both versions must have an identical body shape, which Paper Mario and G&W don't have.

All this in consideration, your argument is invalid.

It seems like you read everything except the last 2 sentences.

 

[Frostwraith]

It seems like you read everything except the last 2 sentences.

Invalid argument =/= stupid idea

It's not a stupid idea, because you backed your point with arguments.

Such arguments were, however, invalid. Simple enough.

 

[Deleted member]

You said PM as a GW costume, for that to work, both models (Paper Mario and GW) have to share the same set of hitboxes. The problem is that GW and PM are differently shaped, thus you can't apply the same hitboxes without looking awkward or even glitchy and nonsensical.

Costumes don't work like how you're thinking. Both versions must have an identical body shape, which Paper Mario and G&W don't have.

All this in consideration, your argument is invalid.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Invalid argument =/= stupid idea

It's not a stupid idea, because you backed your point with arguments.

Such arguments were, however, invalid. Simple enough.

I was going to say fair enough, but I'm not buying your same shape counter-point. I have seen Parappa the rapper reskins for Ness that seem to work just fine. In fact they are even different shapes. I highly doubt if modders can manage to make this work that other people can't aswell. Unless there is something i'm missing

 

[Frostwraith]

I was going to say fair enough, but I'm not buying your same shape counter-point. I have seen Parappa the rapper reskins for Ness that seem to work just fine. In fact they are even different shapes. I highly doubt if modders can manage to make this work that other people can't aswell. Unless there is something i'm missing

But wouldn't it make more sense if the costume was more related to the character?

Besides, how do you know if that Parappa Ness skin had no edits to the hitboxes or other tweaks done to better fit the model? Unless you manage to prove further your argument, I cannot simply buy it.

 

[peeup]

Dear Frostwraith,

Paper Mario has a similar body shape to G&W. He can be tweaked to make it work. It's easier to see without a stick up your ass.

 

[Frostwraith]

Dear Frostwraith,

Paper Mario has a similar body shape to G&W. He can be tweaked to make it work. It's easier to see without a stick up your ***.

Head size is clearly different, did you even see both images?

Also, the thought of seeing Paper Mario share G&W's animations is just ludicrous. Have you observed how both characters walk?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Perhaps he could be a trap based character as well. Using towers and such.

More like littering the field with dynamite. Explosives make everything better, after all.

 

[Moon Monkey]

But wouldn't it make more sense if the costume was more related to the character?

Besides, how do you know if that Parappa Ness skin had no edits to the hitboxes or other tweaks done to better fit the model? Unless you manage to prove further your argument, I cannot simply buy it.

hmm... idk a little birdy told me that in order 2 characters to work as alt they need to have the same shape and Paper Mario is lacking legs to swap with Mario :Troll: to your question: yes it would make sense but like I said I just opted to use G&W.r

So if this parappa the rapper skin can receive edits to make the costume work, why is it out the realms of possibility for PM and G&W??? I'm sorry idt I understand. For clarification you want me to prove that this model did/didn't receive edits?

 

[Vintage Creep]

hmm... idk a little birdy told me that in order 2 characters to work as alt they need to have the same shape and Paper Mario is lacking legs to swap with Mario to your question: yesrit would make sense but like I said I just opted to use G&W.

So if this parappa the rapper skin can receive edits to make the costume work, why is it out the realms of possibility for PM and G&W??? I'm sorry idt I understand. For clarification you want me to prove that this model did/didn't receive edits?

Please stop. You're making angels cry.

And the truth is that Paper Mario can't work as an alternate costume of ANYONE. He has to be its own character, plain and simple. That, or nothing.

Now, if you want to discuss the likeability of its inclusion, that's one thing, but PLEASE, stop this non-sense.

 

[Frostwraith]

hmm... idk a little birdy told me that in order 2 characters to work as alt they need to have the same shape and Paper Mario is lacking legs to swap with Mario to your question: yesrit would make sense but like I said I just opted to use G&W.

So if this parappa the rapper skin can receive edits to make the costume work, why is it out the realms of possibility for PM and G&W??? I'm sorry idt I understand. For clarification you want me to prove that this model did/didn't receive edits?

I have already explained why Paper Mario as a G&W costume. Also Paper Mario as a Mario costume wouldn't work as well for the exact same reason.

The idea of a costume is not recieve any tweaks at all and just be a model swap, like what happens in Brawl with Wario. From the moment you tweak the hitboxes and such, you're already changing, albeit slightly, the character's gameplay.

If a costume is supposed to be aesthetical, any minimal detail on the character must be preserved, hence me asking whether or not that Parappa skin for Ness had any tweaks made.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Please stop. You're making angels cry.

And the truth is that Paper Mario can't work as an alternate costume of ANYONE. He has to be its own character, plain and simple. That, or nothing.

Now, if you want to discuss the likeability of its inclusion, that's one thing, but PLEASE, stop this non-sense.

Idk if your trolling me but incase your not, like I said I've seen skins for Parrapa the rapper work on ness what is to stop a PM skin for G&W?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Please stop. You're making angels cry.

At least it wasn't the devil. The Devil May Cry.

 

[FalKoopa]

I think this is what Moon Monkey has in mind.

 

[Vintage Creep]

Idk if your trolling me but incase your not, like I said I've seen skins for Parrapa the rapper work on ness what is to stop a PM skin for G&W?

Well who cares then. Let's have just one character, Mario, with like a thousand of alternate costumes of all the other characters like Link or Pikachu. Same moveset, just a different palette. Infinite roster made in like a month = perfect game.

 

[Frostwraith]

[...] I've seen skins for Parrapa the rapper work on ness what is to stop a PM skin for G&W?

I have yet to see your evidence proving that no tweaks were made to have Ness's hitboxes fit completely with Parappa's model. Otherwise, you will not convince me.

 

[Vintage Creep]

I think this is what Moon Monkey has in mind.

Lol this reminds me Tekken Tag 2. They were fun but seriously is this what we want? Just random reskins for the lulz? I rather have no alt costumes at all than something this ugly and useless.

 

[FlareHabanero]

To end this argument, just make every newcomer an alternate of Mario.

Tanooki Mario
Baby Mario
Metal Mario
Paper Mario
Shadow Mario
Chef Mario
Mini Mario
Toad Mario
CD-i Mario
Bob Hoskins Mario
Zero Suit Mario

 

[Moon Monkey]

I have already explained why Paper Mario as a G&W costume. Also Paper Mario as a Mario costume wouldn't work as well for the exact same reason.

The idea of a costume is not recieve any tweaks at all and just be a model swap, like what happens in Brawl with Wario. From the moment you tweak the hitboxes and such, you're already changing, albeit slightly, the character's gameplay.

If a costume is supposed to be aesthetical, any minimal detail on the character must be preserved, hence me asking whether or not that Parappa skin for Ness had any tweaks made.

I thought you were implying that Paper Mario would be making a better Mario alt costume because he is related to the character. My bad.

Like I said in that post i keep referring to "The paper mario costume isn't gonna give G&W new powers, or change his hitbox, it should be only an appearance thing."

It could very well be the case that the Parappa model has received some tweaks; and I guess the point I'm getting at is that if the PM model recieved similar tweaks for the G&W model, what is to stop that from working?

@Habanero LOL! I was going to make the DMC joke, but i restrained myself.

 

[Frostwraith]

[...]

It could very well be the case that the Parappa model has received some tweaks; and I guess the point I'm getting at is that if the PM model recieved similar tweaks for the G&W model, what is to stop that from working?

Like I said before...

I have already explained why Paper Mario as a G&W costume. Also Paper Mario as a Mario costume wouldn't work as well for the exact same reason.

The idea of a costume is not recieve any tweaks at all and just be a model swap, like what happens in Brawl with Wario. From the moment you tweak the hitboxes and such, you're already changing, albeit slightly, the character's gameplay.

If a costume is supposed to be aesthetical, any minimal detail on the character must be preserved, hence me asking whether or not that Parappa skin for Ness had any tweaks made.

 

[Vintage Creep]

It could very well be the case that the Parappa model has received some tweaks; and I guess the point I'm getting at is that if the PM model recieved similar tweaks for the G&W model, what is to stop that from working?

The fact that it's 1) useless 2) ugly 3) cheap 4) boring 5) insulting.

Would you like Ridley to be an alternate costume of Charizard? They are similar, you know. Both are dragon-like.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Would you like Ridley to be an alternate costume of Charizard? They are similar, you know. Both are dragon-like.

Oh even better, make every newcomer simply an alternate costume for other characters. Let's see now...

K. Rool is an alternate costume of Bowser.
Palutena is an alternate costume for Zelda.
Shulk is an alternate costume for Link.
Takamaru is an alternate costume for Marth.
Little Mac is an alternate costume for Captain Falcon.
...Wait, Dr. Mario? Nah, him shooting fireballs would be weird, let's make him a separate character.

 

[peeup]

Head size is clearly different, did you even see both images?

Also, the thought of seeing Paper Mario share G&W's animations is just ludicrous. Have you observed how both characters walk?

You're right, you got me there. Like it would be stupid to have someone like Kazuya to have a Mario costume, someone with a very different head size and animation style and gait. **** man you really got me there.

I have yet to see your evidence proving that no tweaks were made to have Ness's hitboxes fit completely with Parappa's model. Otherwise, you will not convince me.

Or, you know, tweak Parappa's model to fit Ness' hitboxes. You could do that too. People have technology that can make that happen.

 

[Moon Monkey]

...

Would you like Ridley to be an alternate costume of Charizard? They are similar, you know. Both are dragon-like.

The difference here is that, I would want Ridley to be his own character. I don't want Paper Mario to be his own character.

But I see where you are getting at it would require a new rig for Ridley to efficiently replicate Charizards moves. Which would be the same case for Paper Mario. I see what you guys are getting at.

Like I said before...

This is going is circles

Spoiler

"If a costume is supposed to be aesthetical, any minimal detail on the character must be preserved, hence me asking whether or not that Parappa skin for Ness had any tweaks made."

"if the PM model recieved similar tweaks for the G&W model, what is to stop that from working?"

"The idea of a costume is not recieve any tweaks at all and just be a model swap, like what happens in Brawl with Wario. From the moment you tweak the hitboxes and such, you're already changing, albeit slightly, the character's gameplay"

"The paper mario costume isn't gonna give G&W new powers, or change his hitbox, it should be only an appearance thing."

^back to the top.^

Again. Would/how tweaking the model to fit G&W ruin the swap?

 

[FalKoopa]

Was the site suddenly down for a while?

To add to Habanero's post:
Chrom is an alt for Ike.
Bowser Jr. is an alt for Squirtle.
Megaman is an alt for Samus.

 

[Frostwraith]

To shut this Paper Mario as G&W alt argument at once:

An image is worth a thousand words. You can't argue with facts like this.

 

[FalKoopa]

I'll list the differences.

• Paper Mario's Legs are much shorter.
• He has a larger and rounder body.
• And a Larger head.

Again. Would/how tweaking the model to fit G&W ruin the swap?

If they tweak Paper Mario, we'll end up with this.

 

[peeup]

No man Frostwraith you're right. Like for example trying to have a Mario costume on Kazuya wouldn't work at all for the reason you have mentioned. I mean look at their body shapes.

Imagine how it would never be able to work at all under any circumstances no matter what. I mean look at this fan made mod, it is so completely not plausible, not a good idea, not possible look at body types hitboxes man door hook hand car door.

 

[Frostwraith]

That was the point I was trying to prove. When it comes to costumes, it's not as simple as it seems.

By the way, that Mario-cosplaying Kazuya is not a fan mod, it's an exclusive mode from the Wii U version of Tekken Tag Tournament 2.

 

[Vintage Creep]

Seriously?

 

[Deleted member]

mfw this discussion...

not sure if I even wanna add anything...

 

[Frostwraith]

Sorry, Manly. Party's over already.

 

[peeup]

That was the point I was trying to prove. When it comes to costumes, it's not as simple as it seems.

By the way, that Mario-cosplaying Kazuya is not a fan mod, it's an exclusive mode from the Wii U version of Tekken Tag Tournament 2.

Jesus man learn to sarcasm. I'm trying to show you how stupid you're being. Their body types don't have to be identical, or even ****ing close to each other. Paper Mario is closer in body type to G&W than Mario is to Kazuya.

tl;dr IT WORKS SHUT UP.

 

[FlareHabanero]

IT WORKS SHUT UP.

"SHUT UP GUYS I'M RIGHT YOUR WRONG WAAAAAAAAAH!"

 

[Moon Monkey]

That was the point I was trying to prove. When it comes to costumes, it's not as simple as it seems.

By the way, that Mario-cosplaying Kazuya is not a fan mod, it's an exclusive mode from the Wii U version of Tekken Tag Tournament 2.

I think he was being sarcastic with the whole fan-mod thing
But this was one things I had in mind (There were some Street Fighter 4 costumes i was looking at too) . The model differs greatly from head-to-toe, and yet it works. If it is not as simple as it seems Namco was able throw it in fairly quickly for the WiiU's release. simple or not it is doable as seen in the tekken pic