Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Moon Monkey]

13 sounds a bit too much to be. Any where from 6 to 8 possibly. But not 13

 

[Big-Cat]

You don't even have to change the title of that one to make a porno.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Was wondering what the "Sin" in "Sin & Punishment" was all about. (that's right, even I can make a dirty joke here and there)

What about Pocket Monsters?

 

[Deleted member]

On Saki... Ahh I see, not sure how I feel about that transormation, though it's more creative than others.

I didn't say it in my video, there was more reasoning to my thought that Lucario will be replaced. Assuming that Sakurai doesn't want to exceed say a 40ish character roster, I think that Pokemon slots are the most susceptible to being tampered with. I agree that Sakurai has the intention to keep Lucario/Mewtwo, I just don't think that intention will follow though.

@shinp: It's more or less the same thing. Sakurai probably has the intention of adding Ridley, but there's a large chance it won't follow though. If the developers really wanted to include him they probably would have for Brawl. Developing ZSS was possibly a way of adding a new Metroid character while also avoiding Ridley. Why else would you go with a character that had very minimal background (ZSS) over a character that is pretty popular (Ridley)? I never said Ridley won't be included, I'm just saying that he will be hard to develop and that gives other characters (in my case Sylux) a better chance. If anything, that just means we might have 2 Metroid newcomers.

@Spirit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv49mJJcqHE

I will admit that I took liberties during the video to keep it pretty entertaining. That was my original intention after all.

First of all, I reall gotta praise you on the production value of it.

Second, it really isn't as bad as other lists I've seen. Like you didn't say anything stupid like Magnus over Palutena which really peeves me, and I'll even give you Yu from Persona, it IS you list, and while some were a bit out there a lot of your opinions are justified. EXCEPT for Sylux, you really blew it there, and it's not because of the Ridley deal, it's just that Sylux is so irrelevant that he's got NO chance, Dark Samus has a much better chance, and she's got practically none.

However, I do like how you chose characters based on combat abilities and not solely on iconography or any of that other bull****, even with Sylux.

So I gotta take your side on this and say that you truly don't deserve all the **** you're getting, despite the fact that I don't personally agree with some of your choices, your train of thought is justified and isn't fueled by blind fanboyism like I've seen on other Youtube lists and such.. At the same time, going against the mainstream opinion is sometimes better imo, even if it pisses some people off.

"REBELS!!"


Anyway, since I noticed you seem to like 'Seibah' and you used an UBW song in your outro... Enjoy some Seibah Lily:

 

[Starphoenix]

Hoping more more character discussion, but what are you gonna do.

Since I didn't say it before, I'd be happy with Star's roster. Though, it does seem a bit small.......

My post was covering whom I thought were the likeliest characters for the game. There are still other characters I believe have a shot of being playable, but I am not going to throw them into the likely category by any means. Waddle Dee, Balloon Fighter, Krystal, Starfy, Dixie Kong and Samurai Goroh would probably make up that "have a shot, but not as likely as the first group" category.

 

[Oasis_S]

Makes you wonder if he ever got his lower-half back.

 

[---]

So anyway 13 sounds about right to me, ignoring 3rd parties of course.

1. K. Rool
2. Ridley
3. Mewtwo
4. Roy
5. Palutena
6. Little Mac
7. Issac
8. Saki
9. Takamaru
10. Dixie Kong
11. Chrom
12. Mario Newcomer
13. Goroh

EDIT: Actually if you take away Snake/Sonic from disrupting Brawl's roster size, we'd get exactly 50 characters overall.

 

[Deleted member]

We'll probably get 13. 64 had 12, Melee had 13, and Brawl had 15.

There's that flawed pattern thinking again...

I'm gonna have a good laugh when the game comes out and all these foolish patterns are broken to pieces. It'll be like Pokemon Black2/White2 all over again.

Saki's Ruffian Form looks like a buff EVA unit while Isa's is just an overground version of himself with discolored skin and longer white hair.

So Isa is just like Ichigo's Mugetsu?

Spoiler

EDIT:
Thanks Koopa, you're awesome!

 

[FlareHabanero]

Patterns are made to be broken, especially from an installment that is going to change directions. For those that people that believe in the heart of the patterns, prepared to get wrecked.

 

[FalKoopa]

@Manly
Use the collapse tags. They're working now.

 

[Deleted member]

For those that people that believe in the heart of the patterns, prepared to get wrecked.

Ho-boy, that brought back some memories to Saturday mornings and Yu-Gi-Oh!

 

[FlareHabanero]

Even back in the days, I thought the Yu-Gi-Oh dub from 4kids was kind of dumb. The Japanese version isn't exactly Oscar worthy ether, but it's the lesser of two evils.

Anyway, I do think that being an icon is not exactly the ideal way to go like some people think. Simply being familiar is not enough, as the character also needs a coherent move set in order to actually be worth a damn. Sometimes in extreme cases, sometimes the whole icon thing can be abandoned entirely just for the sake of the moves. I mean, even I admit that Takamaru is not an icon but would still like to see the character due to the varies martial arts involving the katana like kenjustu or laijutsu.

 

[Starphoenix]

I'm surprised no one is considering the next games could have more newcomers than any Super Smash Bros title to date. Thanks to DLC and not having to drop characters for the sake of expediency.

No, this has nothing to do with a pattern.

 

[Deleted member]

There's that flawed pattern thinking again...

I fail to see the pattern.
12, 13, 15, 13?

Seems more to me that it's going by the thinking everyone is doing in that there won't be as many new characters this time around, yet still keeping a decent amount.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

@Star It's the result of taking Sakurai's words and letting them bounce around inside the heads of fans with no interference.

If you ask me, we'll get about the same number of characters we always get, if not a few more. But not because of patterns.

 

[Fire!]

First of all, I reall gotta praise you on the production value of it.

Second, it really isn't as bad as other lists I've seen. Like you didn't say anything stupid like Magnus over Palutena which really peeves me, and I'll even give you Yu from Persona, it IS you list, and while some were a bit out there a lot of your opinions are justified. EXCEPT for Sylux, you really blew it there, and it's not because of the Ridley deal, it's just that Sylux is so irrelevant that he's got NO chance, Dark Samus has a much better chance, and she's got practically none.

However, I do like how you chose characters based on combat abilities and not solely on iconography or any of that other bull****, even with Sylux.

So I gotta take your side on this and say that you truly don't deserve all the **** you're getting, despite the fact that I don't personally agree with some of your choices, your train of thought is justified and isn't fueled by blind fanboyism like I've seen on other Youtube lists and such.. At the same time, going against the mainstream opinion is sometimes better imo, even if it pisses some people off.

"REBELS!!"

Sylux was more of a placeholder for basically any bounty hunter from the Metroid series so that's understandable. I was thinking Rundas for a while, but given what happened in Prime 3, probably not. Metroid really does need more representation.

Epic Seibah is unbounded by spoiler tags

 

[Oasis_S]

13 has been more or less an agreed upon increase (though I say 14), and then SmashChu says it and it's laughable?

 

[Big-Cat]

13 has been more or less an agreed upon increase (though I say 14), and then SmashChu says it and it's laughable?

His credibility went out the window ages ago.

 

[Deleted member]

No, it's because More Characters means more issues when balancing the game. Keep in mind that a fresh new game is being made with new mechanics in mind and a new engine in the works, you really have to stop an think what this means. EVERY character has to be balanced according to the engine. Take a moment and think what making, programming and balancing 45-50 characters means, and not just in one game, but two, in addition, you have to get both games out by a set date. You can't work on this for 5 years or anything like that.

1 more character means reworking the process and having to retest and rebalance everything.

I think the starting roster will be smaller than what most expect, with the promise of DLC characters, perhaps 3 or so, released every 4-6 months, most likely to be cut characters from Melee/Brawl. That's IF we get DLC, otherwise we'll get a slightly larger roster with more clones, but less total than what we could get with DLC Characters.

People fail to realize what a daunting task game design really is and just how much thought it put into even the smallest things, and this is not the "hurr durr, the competitive Smash Community wants a competitive game" type of thing going on here.

Here's a challenge for each and every one of you who may disagree with me. Come up with the mechanics and roster for an original fighting game. No, not using All-Star Characters from other franchises, I mean, think up and create an ORIGINAL Roster for a fighting game, thinking of all the characters, balance, moves, etc... Let me know when you get to 50 Original characters with as few clones as possible and as many original and intriguing concepts that people would wanna play as. Put yourself at a disadvantage from what Sakurai has to work with, maybe then you'll understand. It's very easy to take someone else's work and expand on it, but it's a whole different story to try and think up of your own ideas, and then getting them to work properly.

Also the reason I say original characters is because people have a knack to not think of characters from a strategic standpoints and a lot of movesets I see tend to be Copy/Pasta of a generic concept. If we remove that, then you have to start to think for yourself.

Anyway, as I said, when you have 50, feel more than free to share. Imo, you'll likely get to 30 before you start having many clones, and treaded ideas, and that's just the planning part, you're not even getting to the programming and balancing.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

13 has been more or less an agreed upon increase (though I say 14), and then SmashChu says it and it's laughable?

No comment.

 

[FlareHabanero]

His credibility went out the window ages ago.

It's like what your signature says.

Why think for myself?

I'm not smart.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think the starting roster will be smaller than what most expect, with the promise of DLC characters, perhaps 3 or so, released every 4-6 months, most likely to be cut characters from Melee/Brawl. That's IF we get DLC, otherwise we'll get a slightly larger roster with more clones, but less total than what we could get with DLC Characters.

I think the DLC would have more. What I think has a strong chance of happening is that Smash 4 will be the first game to go the "Super" route. The DLC would include X amount of characters and rebalancing. Considering we have New Super Luigi U on the way, this isn't that far fetched.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Balancing and work on the game is hard and all, but I think what folks seem to forget is that there is what is called a development team working on this game.

Let's remember that Sakurai himself balanced Brawl (to the chagrin of many), and there were 38 (including transformations) in that game.

Let's remember that Namco-Bandai + the typical menagerie of folks that work on Smash Bros. will be on board this time, and that there's no way Sakurai is going to be balancing the new roster all by himself.

A roster of about 50 is 110% reasonable.

 

[Big-Cat]

Balancing is still a tough act to follow regardless of how big the development team. If that was really the case, every fighting game would have immaculate balance.

 

[Starphoenix]

13 has been more or less an agreed upon increase (though I say 14), and then SmashChu says it and it's laughable?

This community has their petty attitudes towards certain users. You all know of whom I'm speaking.

No, it's because More Characters means more issues when balancing the game. Keep in mind that a fresh new game is being made with new mechanics in mind and a new engine in the works, you really have to stop an think what this means. EVERY character has to be balanced according to the engine. Take a moment and think what making, programming and balancing 45-50 characters means, and not just in one game, but two, in addition, you have to get both games out by a set date. You can't work on this for 5 years or anything like that.

Which is why Sakurai has an adequate team around him to tackle this challenge.

I think the starting roster will be smaller than what most expect, with the promise of DLC characters, perhaps 3 or so, released every 4-6 months, most likely to be cut characters from Melee/Brawl. That's IF we get DLC, otherwise we'll get a slightly larger roster with more clones, but less total than what we could get with DLC Characters.

As much fun as Nintendo is having with their journey in the world of downloadable content, Sakurai is not the kind of developer to forego delivering a complete game for the sake of down the road content. He'll do what he can with the added benefit of knowing there is a safety net through DLC that will allow him to finish what might not be completed by the time release approaches.

 

[Oasis_S]

hekghf

Wow, you really are a weakling.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Balancing is still a tough act to follow regardless of how big the development team. If that was really the case, every fighting game would have immaculate balance.

I'm just saying that the "balance is hard" argument isn't really too applicable for this situation. I know the balance will never be perfect, but obviously there are fighting games with rosters near 50 with decent balance that have smaller dev teams than SSB4.

Which is why Sakurai has an adequate team around him to tackle this challenge.

Yup.

 

[Big-Cat]

As much fun as Nintendo is having with their journey in the world of downloadable content, Sakurai is not the kind of developer to forego delivering a complete game for the sake of down the road content. He'll do what he can with the added benefit of knowing there is a safety net through DLC that will allow him to finish what might not be completed by the time release approaches.

Which is why I said that Smash 4 would be better of going with the Super approach. Street Fighter IV was very much a complete game, but Super took that game up to 11 in content and balancing.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Wow, you really are a weakling.

Who the hell do you think you are, Zeus? Just sitting and yelling "YOU WEAKLING!" if they don't fulfill their challenge?

 

[Oasis_S]

Street Fighter has all the answers huh.


@Habanero: I'm the Strongest in the whole world.

 

[Big-Cat]

Street Fighter has all the answers huh.


@Habanero: I'm the Strongest in the whole world.

Well, the answer DOES lie in the heart of battle.

And Street Fighter is not the only that has done this. The vast majority of fighting games do updates. Virtua Fighter, BlazBlue, Tekken, Skullgirls, Marvel vs. Capcom, King of Fighters, etc. I only used Super as a reference because of how much content was added in the update (and at $40 to boot).

 

[Starphoenix]

Which is why I said that Smash 4 would be better of going with the Super approach. Street Fighter IV was very much a complete game, but Super took that game up to 11 in content and balancing.

The problem is that is not a part of Sakurai's design philosophy. He enjoys putting his all into every game he develops and getting the most out of that game. This is why every Smash Bros title improves upon its predecessor content substantially (quality aside).

I'm not as worried about balance since Sakurai has acknowledged his need to allow others be involved in the process.

 

[Oasis_S]

Knowing that, Star, why've you been so confident on DLC? You do mean DLC characters, right?

Maybe I put the idea out of my head too early, but I figured for a game like Smash, it would be really hard to get a team together to create DLC characters, and that it would be more worthwhile to just put in everything they could from the beginning. Considering all the resources that must be pulled together, y'know? And for characters that would have to be more on the obscure side, too. Unless Sakurai purposely left out some big names just so they could get peoples interest in buying some no names.

But I suppose... I accept that DLC for Smash would definitely be something everyone would want.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The only thing that would matter is balance patches. I mean, the potential is RIGHT THERE.

 

[peeup]

Are there other fighting games with routine patching to nerf OP characters and buff underpowered ones? I feel like patching for fighters is weird, but I also don't have any experience with fighters that have online capability, so I really got no idea.

Even if they shouldn't patch for balance, though, I'd love for DLC characters to be a thing.

 

[Big-Cat]

Are there other fighting games with routine patching to nerf OP characters and buff underpowered ones? I feel like patching for fighters is weird, but I also don't have any experience with fighters that have online capability, so I really got no idea.

Even if they shouldn't patch for balance, though, I'd love for DLC characters to be a thing.

Define routine.

 

[Oasis_S]

Can't wait for the back room to finish a tier list and then a patch comes out unannounced.


I got some orange cream sherbet ice cream but I think maybe now I should have gotten chocolate chip and cookie dough. Oh well.

 

[peeup]

Define routine.

Not sure exactly, but maybe like every month/couple months they'd try to balance everything out.

Can't wait for the back room to finish a tier list and then a patch comes out unannounced.

Yeah that's what I'd be worried about. The metagame would be wicked dynamic, but also it would be pretty stupid because the character you know backward and forward could completely change.

So has this been done in a fighting game before?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Not sure exactly, but maybe like every month/couple months they'd try to balance everything out.



Yeah that's what I'd be worried about. The metagame would be wicked dynamic, but also it would be pretty stupid because the character you know backward and forward could completely change.

So has this been done in a fighting game before?

Most modern ones.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I got some orange cream sherbet ice cream but I think maybe now I should have gotten chocolate chip and cookie dough. Oh well.

You should of gotten the cookie dough. You kind of screwed up, but at least orange cream isn't half bad ether.