Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

[Macchiato]

It's listed as one of your tools to get rid of luma while another guy said to pressure with it. I don't see how Zelda beats a character with more range and better mobility than her. Not to mention having the potential to kill Zelda at dumb early percentages. Honestly opening mu discussion and bringing up dins fire in the first sentence is a good way for me to ignore whst you have tp say. Using it as a " pressure " is even more non sense. But that's just me. With that said Zelda's up B oos is pretty her most threatening option.

Luma is super easy to get rid of so then the range is equal. Rosalina kills like 20% later than zelda, zelda beats mario and guess why. He's faster. Your arguments are all invalid.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Luma is super easy to get rid of so then the range is equal. Rosalina kills like 20% later than zelda, zelda beats mario and guess why. He's faster. Your arguments are all invalid.

Rosalina's fsmash and usmash actually kill at like 120ish, so if Luma isn't with her (which it probably won't in this MU) Zelda is going to easily have the killing advantage, KO'ing her at like 80%

 

[Macchiato]

Rosalina's fsmash and usmash actually kill at like 120ish, so if Luma isn't with her (which it probably won't in this MU) Zelda is going to easily have the killing advantage, KO'ing her at like 80%

Hell, the elevator kills her at 70%. Her lightning kicks kill her at like 65%

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Just as a reminder, please try to keep all discussions civilized, okay?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Luma is super easy to get rid of so then the range is equal. Rosalina kills like 20% later than zelda, zelda beats mario and guess why. He's faster. Your arguments are all invalid.

Faster and out range Zelda. If the range is even without Luma then it's a push for those 13 seconds. I understand your p.o.v more than ylu think buf this is a simple fact you should except Zelda is a worse rosalina in most aspects of the game. There's nothing Zelda has that gibes her an advantage. Zelda is a slower Rosalina with worse range and slower attacks. Do you get why this is a bad MU for you?

 

[Macchiato]

Faster and out range Zelda. If the range is even without Luma then it's a push for those 13 seconds. I understand your p.o.v more than ylu think buf this is a simple fact you should except Zelda is a worse rosalina in most aspects of the game. There's nothing Zelda has that gibes her an advantage. Zelda is a slower Rosalina with worse range and slower attacks. Do you get why this is a bad MU for you?

luma is like nonexistent in this MU. They aren't even alike, they have different styles and their movesets are different. That is a foolish statement comparing her to zelda just because they have 1-2 similar moves. Zelda has a killing advantage, combo advantage, edgeguarding advantage. Read my post from page 7

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY : Please read this post if you're not convinced with what Macchiato is saying.

Also, in case anyone is confused with how quickly Rosalina can KO stuff, refer to my Complete Coverage Thread. I will tell everyone right now that Rosalina's strongest attack is Power Luma Shot, which KOs Mario at 68% damage when it's fully charged. However, it is slow, and can be reflected right back at Rosalina.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

luma is like nonexistent in this MU. They aren't even alike, they have different styles and their movesets are different. That is a foolish statement comparing her to zelda just because they have 1-2 similar moves. Zelda has a killing advantage, combo advantage, edgeguarding advantage. Read my post from page 7

Read it already man you didn't say anything in there that leads me to believe this is in Zelda's favor. They're alike in my mind I group characters a certain way. To me the presence of Rosalina invalidates Zelda. I have no clue what's going on in the Zelda boards. But her MU's aren't determined on din's fire or LK. The fact that you bring those moves up is a each to me like Isaid before about din's. Also I don't need a lesson on Zelda I'm good in that regard.

Combos are nice and all but you're going to need to land that hit. With the lack of mobility coming from Zelda you're going to need to force Rosalina into a mistake. The problem with that is there's nothing Zelda has to force mistakes onto Rosalina. Din's fire isn't that options it's slow easy to get around and easy to punish. Since Zelda can't force mistakes on Rosalina the question becomes how effective is LK? Truthfully not that effective yes Rosalina is a big target however lk shines whrn you're going to punish something. As Rosalina I don't really have to commit to anything that's easily punishable because I have the range advantage. Since my space tools out range Zelda's I csn stay at ranges that alllow me to poke at Zelda while remaining safe. You also failt to take into account Rosalina crouch. Which lowers her hurt box and gives less opportunity for lk to be successful.

Now what are Zelda's approaches? Dash attack dash grab? How slow? How safe? SH nair? I'm not feeling it at the very least Zelda dtilt and dsmash match the speed of Rosalinas. Otherwise you'd be in ever more trouble. The effective rangers Zelda can play at are rangerd Where rosalina shines at.

I'll stop here because this is mkre thsn I wanted to right on this silly MU. But I think the Zelda players are getting beyond themselves and some of their claims are ridiculous. Especially Din's fire as a pressure tool.

 

[Macchiato]

Read it already man you didn't say anything in there that leads me to believe this is in Zelda's favor. They're alike in my mind I group characters a certain way. To me the presence of Rosalina invalidates Zelda. I have no clue what's going on in the Zelda boards. But her MU's aren't determined on din's fire or LK. The fact that you bring those moves up is a each to me like Isaid before about din's. Also I don't need a lesson on Zelda I'm good in that regard.

Combos are nice and all but you're going to need to land that hit. With the lack of mobility coming from Zelda you're going to need to force Rosalina into a mistake. The problem with that is there's nothing Zelda has to force mistakes onto Rosalina. Din's fire isn't that options it's slow easy to get around and easy to punish. Since Zelda can't force mistakes on Rosalina the question becomes how effective is LK? Truthfully not that effective yes Rosalina is a big target however lk shines whrn you're going to punish something. As Rosalina I don't really have to commit to anything that's easily punishable because I have the range advantage. Since my space tools out range Zelda's I csn stay at ranges that alllow me to poke at Zelda while remaining safe. You also failt to take into account Rosalina crouch. Which lowers her hurt box and gives less opportunity for lk to be successful.

Now what are Zelda's approaches? Dash attack dash grab? How slow? How safe? SH nair? I'm not feeling it at the very least Zelda dtilt and dsmash match the speed of Rosalinas. Otherwise you'd be in ever more trouble. The effective rangers Zelda can play at are rangerd Where rosalina shines at.

I'll stop here because this is mkre thsn I wanted to right on this silly MU. But I think the Zelda players are getting beyond themselves and some of their claims are ridiculous. Especially Din's fire as a pressure tool.

Who said she needed to approach, umm let's see can rosalina force an approach. Okay we're the ridiculously one? Yew barely put up a arguement. If yew really wanna know how the MU is then let's play a few rounds. Let's play and see. Yew really do need a lesson on her. They are nothing alike at all, her Usmash is like megamans so does that mean they're alike NO

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY : Please don't make this any harder on yourself. If there's evidence suggesting that Zelda can go toe-to-toe against Rosalina, then we should pretty much take what we get.

 

[Ffamran]

For reference on characters' attack speeds and how they compare, check this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/list...-initial-frame-to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/. Remember to thank @ItsRainingGravy.

Disclaimer: None of this accounts for range, Specials, priority, end lag, etc.
Here's 's.

Spoiler

Jab: 8th fastest at frame 8; out of 3 characters. Faster than Zelda by 3 frames.
Dash Attack: 3rd fastest at frame 6; out of 9 characters. Ties with Zelda.
Ftilt: 4th fastest at frame 7; out of 6 characters. Faster than Zelda by 5 frames.
Utilt: 7th fastest at frame 9; out of 5 characters. Slower than Zelda by 2 frames.
Dtilt: 3rd fastest at frame 5; out of 10 characters. Ties with Zelda.
Side Smash: 7th fastest at frame 16; out of 7 characters. Ties with Zelda.
Up Smash: 4th fastest at frame 8; out of 6 characters. Faster than Zelda by 1 frame.
Down Smash: 3rd fastest at frame 6; out of 7 characters. Slower than Zelda by 1 frame.
Nair: 8th fastest at frame 9; out of 3 characters. Slower than Zelda by 3 frames.
Fair: 7th fastest at frame 11; out of 5 characters. Slower than Zelda by 2 frames.
Bair: 6th fastest at frame 9; out of 8 characters. Slower than Zelda by 3 frames.
Uair: 6th fastest at frame 8; out of 5 characters. Faster than Zelda by 6 frames.
Dair: 14th fastest at frame 17; out of 7 characters. Slower than Zelda by 3 frames.
Grab: The fastest at frame 6-7; out of 22 characters. Faster than Zelda by 4 frames.
Dash Grab: The fastest at frame 8-9; out of 20 characters. Faster than Zelda by 3 frames.
Pivot Grab: 2nd fastest at frame 9-10; out of 17 characters. Faster than Zelda by 2 frames.

Here's 's.

Spoiler

Jab: Slowest at frame 11; hers alone. Gee, I wonder if she's slower? Slower than Rosalina by 3 frames.
Dash Attack: 3rd fastest at frame 6; out of 9 characters. Tied with Rosalina.
Ftilt: 9th fastest at frame 12; out of 5 characters. Slower than Rosalina by 5 frames.
Utilt: 5th fastest at frame 7; out of 7 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 2 frames.
Dtilt: 3rd fastest at frame 5; out of 10 characters. Tied with Rosalina.
Side Smash: 7th fastest at frame 16; out of 7 characters. Tied with Rosalina.
Up Smash: 5th fastest at frame 9; out of 5 characters. Slower than Rosalina by 1 frame.
Down Smash: 2nd fastest at frame 5; out of 5 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 1 frame.
Nair: 5th fastest at frame 6; out of 8 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 3 frames.
Fair: 5th fastest at frame 9; out of 5 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 2 frames.
Bair: 3rd fastest at frame 6; out of 7 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 3 frames.
Uair: 12th fastest at frame 14; out of 2 characters. Slower than Rosalina by 6 frames.
Dair: 11th fastest at frame 14; out of 8 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 3 frames.
Grab: 5th fastest at frame 10-11; out of 2 characters except Olimar's end frames are unknown. Slower than Rosalina by 4 frames.
Dash Grab: 4th fastest at frame 11-12; out of 3 characters since Zelda ties with Ganondorf and Yoshi, but Yoshi's ends at frame 21. Slower than Rosalina by 3 frames.
Pivot Grab: 4th fastest at frame 11-12; out of 9 characters. Slower than Rosalina by 2 frames.

Why did I go to this trouble of making this? Well, to clarify some things about who's slower and who's faster. The thing is that sometimes, frame data might not matter that much. For an example Ike and Falco. Ike has slow attacks, but his range, ground mobility?, and raw power makes up for it while Falco has fast attacks, but his mobility kills everything about his fast and powerful attacks. Or you could look at Ganondorf and Triple D who are slow, but powerful. There isn't one for Ike, but there is one for Mario, Falco, and Samus and as of now, Rosalina and Zelda.

Here's a link to ItsRainingGravy's ranking of Mario: http://smashboards.com/threads/list...-to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/#post-18462854.

Falco and Samus's here: http://smashboards.com/threads/list...-to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/#post-18477590.

Edit: I forgot about this, but Zelda is slower than Rosalina in only 7 moves: Jab, Ftilt, Up Smash, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, and Pivot Grab. That's fine and dandy, but in practice it might not mean anything. Case in point: FALCO. MOVE FASTER, FALCO! BE A MARATHON SPRINTER, DAMN IT! FLAP THOSE WINGS, YOU PHEASANT!

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Unfortunately, there aren't any stuff to rank their Specials and I bet it's because everyone's Specials are different and because finding data on that can be a pain. Trust me, I tried to Falco's Blaster, Phantasm, and Custom start-up/end frames and it was a horrible experience.

Edit 3: Edit With a Vengeance: I forgot to put a disclaimer about range, end lag, and such.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's ridiculousto sit here and discuss a MU and not mention Luma at all. It's actually absurd. Please stop it.

I've already looked at the frame data run speed walk speed air speex weight and w.e. is needed. The only area that Zelda is better at is air speed. The key moves in the MU the spacing tools advantage goes to Rosalina. Since I can poke outside of Ranges Zelda is comfortable at. When your best spacing tool is out ranged by mine you have a problem. When my moves are faster than yours snd out range yours you have a problem. When my moves are faster than yours and out ranges yours you have a problem.

@ Macchiato I'm good on the Zelda lesson trust me. If you want to play we can play.

@ Mario & Sonic Guy there's really nothing there but a bunch of overstated opinions such as pressure with din's fire and excellent edgeguarding. Zelda has none of that. Zelda maybe able to exploiy her recovery but that's nothing new . It's probably weaker than most other characters. Since her only real option is dair. Vs other characters you have to worry about so much more. That still relies on a hard read.

I

 

[Macchiato]

It's ridiculousto sit here and discuss a MU and not mention Luma at all. It's actually absurd. Please stop it.

I've already looked at the frame data run speed walk speed air speex weight and w.e. is needed. The only area that Zelda is better at is air speed. The key moves in the MU the spacing tools advantage goes to Rosalina. Since I can poke outside of Ranges Zelda is comfortable at. When your best spacing tool is out ranged by mine you have a problem. When my moves are faster than yours snd out range yours you have a problem. When my moves are faster than yours and out ranges yours you have a problem.

@ Macchiato I'm good on the Zelda lesson trust me. If you want to play we can play.

@ Mario & Sonic Guy there's really nothing there but a bunch of overstated opinions such as pressure with din's fire and excellent edgeguarding. Zelda has none of that. Zelda maybe able to exploiy her recovery but that's nothing new . It's probably weaker than most other characters. Since her only real option is dair. Vs other characters you have to worry about so much more. That still relies on a hard read.

I

Ok add me and let's play the MU

 

[Ffamran]

I don't use Zelda, but I believe Phantom Slash can edgeguard in a way like Palutena's Reflect Barrier, (Dark) Pit's Guardian Orbitars, Ike's Eruption (customs), and Ganondorf's Volcano Kick. I'm not sure though, but someone in the Zelda boards mentioned that they pushed Ike away from the ledge by using Phantom Slash. It might be an Ike, Little Mac, etc. only thing, but it's worth a mention.

No matter how situational or niche of a move is, it's still useful, but not as useful as say, a sex kick which can be used in plenty of situations in matchups whereas Phantom Slash might have only 1 usage in a matchup.

 

[Macchiato]

If any other rosalinas would like to play the MU. Then add me

 

[Mericus]

Read it already man you didn't say anything in there that leads me to believe this is in Zelda's favor. They're alike in my mind I group characters a certain way. To me the presence of Rosalina invalidates Zelda.

It's ridiculousto sit here and discuss a MU and not mention Luma at all. It's actually absurd. Please stop it.

Can you elaborate on this?
I'm legitimately confused as to how they are the same character yet you acknowledge they are different with by demanding attention to Luma.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Can you elaborate on this?
I'm legitimately confused as to how they are the same character yet you acknowledge they are different with by demanding attention to Luma.

What I'm saying is while I see Zelda as a craplier Rosalina you can't compare frame data and leave out luma.

 

[Macchiato]

GGs @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY now do yew see how they aren't similar. Zelda isn't an easy MU. What are your thoughts on the MU now.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

GGs @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY now do yew see how they aren't similar. Zelda isn't an easy MU. What are your thoughts on the MU now.

The exact same......

 

[Macchiato]

The exact same......

What are yew talking about. I edgeguard we yew, I like won 90% of our matches too. What?!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What are yew talking about. I edgeguard we yew, I like won 90% of our matches too. What?!

Yeah you won the overwhelmingly majority of the matches. I'd explain to you why I feel as though the MU is in Rosalina's favor still. But I'd probably get banned. So I'll just leave it alonge . No excuse you beat me.

 

[Macchiato]

Yeah you won the overwhelmingly majority of the matches. I'd explain to you why I feel as though the MU is in Rosalina's favor still. But I'd probably get banned. So I'll just leave it alonge . No excuse you beat me.

Yew said that zelda cant edgeguard and I did very well and also outspaced yew.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

so macchiato won 32 out of 35 matches as zelda vs rosalina

it's CLEARLY in rosalina's favour :^)

 

[BJN39]

so macchiato won 32 out of 35 matches as zelda vs rosalina

it's CLEARLY in rosalina's favour :^)

BUTBUTBUT was their skill level even equal?!?!? D:

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

so macchiato won 32 out of 35 matches as zelda vs rosalina

it's CLEARLY in rosalina's favour :^)

Yeah man the MU's in Rosalina's favor.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

BUTBUTBUT was their skill level even equal?!?!? D:

WHAT DOES THE SCOUTER SAY ABOUT MACCHIATO'S POWER LEVEL

IT'S OVER 9000?!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You guys xan troll as much as you want but that doesn't change anything about how I feel about the MU. Even playing that guy didn't change anything. If you guts are willing to use him as your Zelda rep then by all means. Go ahead if you guys continue to troll I will stop holding back. Also I reported the guy above for trolling.

Anyways I'll play any of you guys if you wish. My NNID is almostlegendary. I don't run hide or make excuses for my performance. If you're going to talk trash on tbe sidelines that's fine but if you wish to play I'll play whoever.

 

[Macchiato]

Yeah man the MU's isn't in Rosalina's favor.

Fixed it

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

BUTBUTBUT was their skill level even equal?!?!? D:

Chances are, no. If Macchiato was able to defeat AlMoStLeGeNdArY's Rosalina with Zelda in 32/35 matches, he's probably a way more skilled player.

The results would probably be closer to even if the Zelda and Rosalina players were at the exact same skill level.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Chances are, no. If Macchiato was able to defeat AlMoStLeGeNdArY's Rosalina with Zelda in 32/35 matches, he's probably a way more skilled player.

The results would probably be closer to even if the Zelda and Rosalina players were at the exact same skill level.

Na if there were two equally skilled Zelda and Rosalina players the matches would favor Rosalina. As for the skill level difference I'll say no comment.

 

[Ffamran]

You guys xan troll as much as you want but that doesn't change anything about how I feel about the MU. Even playing that guy didn't change anything. If you guts are willing to use him as your Zelda rep then by all means. Go ahead if you guys continue to troll I will stop holding back. Also I reported the guy above for trolling.

Anyways I'll play any of you guys if you wish. My NNID is almostlegendary. I don't run hide or make excuses for my performance. If you're going to talk trash on tbe sidelines that's fine but if you wish to play I'll play whoever.

You do realize the "guy above" is a staff member, right? And you do know that it was a damned joke, right? There's a difference between joking and trolling.

 

[Macchiato]

Na if there were two equally skilled Zelda and Rosalina players the matches would favor Rosalina. As for the skill level difference I'll say no comment.

No rosalina would lose. Get me a Rosie player that's skilled as me and I'll play them

 

[Deleted member]

Me right now:

Spoiler

 

[Latte]

I don't think I've ever lost to a Rosalina as Zelda.

I can't quite place my finger on why, but I do agree that this match-up is either a tie or in Zelda's favor. I'll try to make a post that's more specific later.

Yeah you won the overwhelmingly majority of the matches. I'd explain to you why I feel as though the MU is in Rosalina's favor still. But I'd probably get banned. So I'll just leave it alonge . No excuse you beat me.

I've been following this discussion, and I would like to know what your reasons are. I don't see how you would get banned as long as your reasons are logical and help push this MU discussion forward.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Me right now:

Spoiler

With the way the Zelda match-up discussion is going, I'll be looking forward to when this thread starts transitioning over to Duck Hunt; Duck Hunt's discussion period will begin on 2/2.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't think I've ever lost to a Rosalina as Zelda.

I can't quite place my finger on why, but I do agree that this match-up is either a tie or in Zelda's favor. I'll try to make a post that's more specific later.

I've been following this discussion, and I would like to know what your reasons are. I don't see how you would get banned as long as your reasons are logical and help push this M discussion forward.

If I give a breakdown of the matches I'd get banned pretty quickly. It would probably seem like sour grapes so it's kinda pointless. I already got banned from another section of this site. So I'm almost certain I'd get banned.

You do realize the "guy above" is a staff member, right? And you do know that it was a damned joke, right? There's a difference between joking and trolling.

So what's your point only mods can break the rules?

 

[Macchiato]

If I give a breakdown of the matches I'd get banned pretty quickly. It would probably seem like sour grapes so it's kinda pointless. I already got banned from another section of this site. So I'm almost certain I'd get banned.


So what's your point only mods can break the rules?

Tbh yew sound like yew don't have a reason and are giving an excuse. Honestly yew sound like those character fans that go around and are super bias. Give us a validated reason.

 

[Latte]

If I give a breakdown of the matches I'd get banned pretty quickly. It would probably seem like sour grapes so it's kinda pointless. I already got banned from another section of this site. So I'm almost certain I'd get banned.

I'm fine with you not wanting to risk getting banned, but please know that If you don't have confidence in your ability to present logical points to support your opinion (as long as your points are logical and presented well, you will not sound bitter), it is difficult to take your opinion on this MU seriously.

 

[Ffamran]

So what's your point only mods can break the rules?

My point was that people have a right to crack jokes and have fun without hurting others.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm fine with you not wanting to risk getting banned, but please know that If you don't have confidence in your ability to present logical points to support your opinion (as long as your points are logical and presented well, you will not sound bitter), it is difficult to take your opinion on this MU seriously.

If you've followed the discussion you'd already know what points I've made. Nothing has changed sine the matches were played.