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Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Lucina's discussion period is now over, or a lack thereof. I was still able to get an overall average with the few ratio inputs that were made though.

:rosalina: [53:47 - 55:45] :4lucina:

I guess in a way, Rosalina handles Lucina a tad better than Marth, though not by too much.

Next up, we'll be analyzing Rosalina's match-up against Kirby.

 

Quickhero

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Lucina definitely does worse than Marth.

You're taking away Marth's main method of taking out Luma reliably when you take out tippers. Your spacing becomes less rewarding and Luma and Rosalina both have plenty of more opportunities to punish.

Just a correction though. I was about to go all mini-ranty but then I remembered that Rosalina has a slightly better score against Lucina than the 50:50 that is Marth vs Rosalina so it's all good. :3
 

mario123007

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Kirby has great recovery, faster Smash then Rosalina. And about the same weight too. Kirby has less attack range, so against Rosalina might be a tough thing to do.
I give 70:30.
 

Quickhero

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Kirby has great recovery, faster Smash then Rosalina. And about the same weight too. Kirby has less attack range, so against Rosalina might be a tough thing to do.
I give 70:30.
Please don't just give out 70:30 to a match-up willy nilly. 70:30 is a HUGE advantage and it means that the latter character (Kirby) has to be almost PERFECT to stand a chance against the former. (Rosalina)

Kirby actually has a good combo game against Rosalina, and you even mentioned some advantages Kirby has against Rosalina. I'm not sure about the actual score, but it's no way that bad. As Ike mains have shown, giving something like 70:30 over a slight advantage just doesn't make any sense and doesn't work out well at all.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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@ mario123007 mario123007 : Quickhero Quickhero does have a huge point there. If you're going to continue posting ratios here, please read the new rule that I implemented during Ike's discussion period; in other words, make a very good explanation for your ratio input.
 

ChikoLad

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Please don't just give out 70:30 to a match-up willy nilly. 70:30 is a HUGE advantage and it means that the latter character (Kirby) has to be almost PERFECT to stand a chance against the former. (Rosalina)

Kirby actually has a good combo game against Rosalina, and you even mentioned some advantages Kirby has against Rosalina. I'm not sure about the actual score, but it's no way that bad. As Ike mains have shown, giving something like 70:30 for no particular reason just doesn't work out.
70:30 isn't "almost impossible, Rosalina's opponents have to be perfect". That's more like 90:10. Keep in mind that 70:30 isn't even going as far as saying "Rosalina is going to win 3 times out of every 4 matches". You're really overexaggerating what we mean when we say 70:30.

60:40 is a slight advantage.
70:30 is a moderate/easily noticeable advantage, though far from unwinnable.
80:20 is a big advantage, real uphill battle for the one on the 20 side, but they can still make it if they play carefully. Generally requires you play defensively, and capitalise on mistakes, rather than make the first move or try to get crazy combos in.
90:10 requires perfect play from the character on the 10 side, or just sheer dumb luck.
100:0 means you're screwed if you're on the 0 side.

Hence, for example, I gave MUs like Marth and Ike 70:30 - I think Rosalina has a noticeable advantage against them, though Marth/Ike can still easily win if they play their cards right. 70:30 doesn't require perfection, it requires a good understanding of both the opponent and your own character if you are on the 30 side, and you'll probably need to practice against players of the character on the 70 side every once in a while. For example, a friend of mine who mains Pac-Man, believes the Rosalina VS Pac-Man MU is 70:30 in Rosalina's favour (I think it's 60:40 Rosalina's favour, but I'll get to that when the Pac-Man discussion comes up). As a result, he makes it a point to practice against my Rosalina for a while every time we have a Smash session.

Keeping in mind that my friend believes the Pac-Man MU is 70:30, he has beaten my Rosalina a few times, and I can assure you he has not played with absolute perfection on all of those occasions. Generally when he beats me, it's because he played a bit smarter and less predictably than I did. In a 70:30 MU, the character on the 70 side may have a noticeable advantage, but they can't exactly sit back with a cup of coffee and get too relaxed, or else the character on the 30 side will still be able to beat them.
 

Parcheesy

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I've played quite a few matches with my friend @ Aunt Jemima Aunt Jemima , and yeah, it's probably in Rosalina's favor without customs. With customs, he has access to an almost strictly better dolphin slash that he can combo into to kill Rosalina off the top at very unfun percents, and make edgeguarding him significantly riskier due to threat of quick stage spikes, so it's a bit more even.

Kirby isn't entirely in a disadvantage in neutral. He'll end up playing a lot similar to a Jigglypuff, waiting for a gap in the wall to weave in with one of his moves. The difference between the two is that Kirby is a combo machine. Even though he's much better at using combos on fast fallers, a simple down air > forward smash or down tilt ( it trips! ) > forward smash is enough to guarantee him stocks on stage. He has the option of making a lot of his approaches 'safe' on shield by following slower options ( down air ) by following them with down tilts, which lower his hurtbox such that Rosalina's fastest out of shield options simply won't hit him ( Jab, up smash, grab, etc ). The Rosalina should win the matchup, but you need to respect the damage a Kirby can do, and wall him out as hard as possible ( I'd recommend not throwing out too many attacks in neutral, just look for the Kirby to commit to an option before moving to stop him ).

Edgeguarding probably goes to Rosalina. While his standard recovery move might be extremely gimpable, he has several jumps he can use to recover with prior to using it. As the Rosalina, you edgeguard him similar to a ROB, where you simply need to keep him offstage long enough for his preferred method of recovering to run out. Once he's out of jumps, it's very simply hitting him out of Final Cutter, which has slow startup, no vertical hitbox, and is generally not very threatening as long as you avoid the meteor. As far as Kirby's edgeguarding goes, his down air is spectacularly good ( Definitely up there in terms of best meteor ). It works very similarly to a Falco down air in Melee, where getting hit by any of the active hitboxes is going to result in a spike. Kirby, being floaty with many jumps can hover below Rosalina's target destination and keep a down air hitbox waiting for her, and because of this it's imperative that you mixup your recovery and stay unpredictable, because being hit by a down air will guarantee a stock loss ( he can always dive deep enough to land a second ).

In summary, play patient as possible on stage in neutral, and be as vicious as possible once the Kirby is off the edge of the stage. Assuming highest level of play it's most likely 65-35 for Rosalina. There are some times where you'll win against people as equally skilled, or even a little better than yourself simply because of your character choice. This advantage is pretty noticeable.
 

Mazdamaxsti

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No offense to anyone, but I find it a bit unfair that people without any knowledge on Kirby are doing it high in the match-up. As A Kirby main (and a friend who mains Rosa + tourney experience) I personally don't think its too bad. like 60:40 would be maximum. On the kirby boards, we put 50:50, for reasons like comboing (earlier combos), kills (b-air kills way earlier, which is an amazing offstage tool). D-air to d-air/footstool also works better against Rosa due to weight. Also, Luma's up is so easy to stone off stage due to its trajectory and no hurtbox

Rosa's size and shape also helps, being big and light. Getting rid of luma is as simple as n-air their shield, and it knock luma away. Having 6 jumps means getting luma shot at you and HITTING you is tough, and gravitational pull is useless.

I'm not saying its better for Kirby, but there are a ton of points that steps this up from being a clear, moderate advantage. My personal opinion is K/R 45:55, but if it ended up being 50:50 I wouldn't be surprised at all.
 

ChikoLad

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No offense to anyone, but I find it a bit unfair that people without any knowledge on Kirby are doing it high in the match-up. As A Kirby main (and a friend who mains Rosa + tourney experience) I personally don't think its too bad. like 60:40 would be maximum. On the kirby boards, we put 50:50, for reasons like comboing (earlier combos), kills (b-air kills way earlier, which is an amazing offstage tool). D-air to d-air/footstool also works better against Rosa due to weight. Also, Luma's up is so easy to stone off stage due to its trajectory and no hurtbox

Rosa's size and shape also helps, being big and light. Getting rid of luma is as simple as n-air their shield, and it knock luma away. Having 6 jumps means getting luma shot at you and HITTING you is tough, and gravitational pull is useless.

I'm not saying its better for Kirby, but there are a ton of points that steps this up from being a clear, moderate advantage. My personal opinion is K/R 45:55, but if it ended up being 50:50 I wouldn't be surprised at all.
But at the same time there are tons of points putting Rosalina at (at the very least) a moderate advantage. She severely out ranges Kirby, even without Luma (heck, even Luma out ranges Kirby on some points), he's terribly easy to intercept and edge guard, he's even lighter than Rosalina is and Rosalina has a much more powerful moveset on average (fully charged hammer being the exception, but you'll never get her with that), he moves around slower than Rosalina does so he can't make easy getaways, and she can combo him much better than he can her because of her longer reach, better ability to intercept, and Luma co-operation. That's just the tip of the iceberg too.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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No real opinion on the matchup number, but it's important to note that if Kirby copies Rosalina, his own version of Luma Shot cannot be beaten by anything. The fake Luma is completely invincible at all charges.

Kirby also has a small (approx. 3 second) cooldown between Luma Shots for some reason.
 
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Aunt Jemima

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I'm not going to go into detail on customs-off, but without them this MU is basically as Parcheesy said. Kirby without customs just isn't good.

I've already done a mini write-up on the MU over somewhere else, I'll go find it...

If Rosalina decides to go defensive and camp Kirby (with customs on), her Star Bits can be ducked under. If she decides to set Luma down before using it to hurt ducking Kirby, he can just use his multiple jumps to stay up, drop down, shield, then jump OoS again. She can't send Luma out to attack Kirby, as he can duck under everything Luma has. She also can't wall Kirby out when he gets in because he can duck under basically all her moves, and D-Tilt isn't as effective when Kirby has multiple jumps.

Rosalina can't spam her stupidly safe attacks up-close because Upper Cutter is a frame 2 OoS option with invincibility on frame 5, hitting in front of Kirby with 10% (and goes up to cover amazing range), so no more N-Airplane spam, super safe B-Air, or overly strong D-Air.

Rosalina can't juggle Kirby to death when he has Burying Stone, as he has a super-armored falling hitbox that has next to no endlag, making it unpunishable. Rosalina has trouble killing Kirby, too. She can't use F-Smash reliably when Kirby has his crouch, D-Smash doesn't really reliably kill, so... yeah.

She won't be grabbing kills off of edgeguarding, either, as Upper Cutter ends her stock when she tries. This makes it so that her only option is U-Smash, which is a short-ranged move that can't land without a read (unless Kirby is spamming D-Air at high percents, but why would he do that?). Oh, and Rosalina's recovery is complete butt. All Kirby needs to do is hang on the ledge and spam D-Air, as her big frame doesn't let her grab the ledge before she's hit. If she tries to recover above, Kirby can Upper Cutter her as she passes.

Also, Luma sucks against Kirby. Kirby can D-Throw > F-Smash it before Rosalina can act (at mid/high percents), Upper Cutter OoS kills Luma, Luma will get stuck in every combo that Kirby does due to the multi-hit properties (which makes it so she can't Luma spam her way out), and the Copy Ability gives Kirby an invincible projectile that always rams through Rosalina's Luma. Throwing this out at random while Rosalina is trying to do something is hilarious, as it just goes straight through Luma and knocks Rosalina away.

Rosalina is a character that, in theory, should beat Kirby. She just doesn't, though. Most people play the MU wrong or don't have customs... and non-custom Kirby sucks.
It isn't organized in any way, just jumbled up stuff.

One thing I'd like to add, though, is that Kirby can't throw out Luma randomly when Rosalina has that Star Bit custom. He'll just be hit out of it before it comes out. However, Kirby's jab clanks with Star Bit, and Kirby's jab is f3 turning into a f1 jab when held, so it works nicely. I'd like to expand on "Luma sucks against Kirby" in that... Rosalina does NOT get Luma. I was actually light on this, I guess, but over 80% of this match should have Rosalina without Luma. Everything Kirby does sends Luma flying.

I don't have an MU ratio, though. I'd say it's 70:30 in favor of Kirby, tbh, but I need to fight a Rosalina main that properly utilizes Luma Warp before I make any full decisions. Stage control is the best thing you could take away from Kirby, yet no Rosalina mains do it. There's no risk in sending Luma out for stage control when it'll die anyways.

Oh, I forgot to add in that Rosalina is light, which makes it so U-Tilt > Upper Cutter kills her at 95% without rage or stale move negation. Kirby has a f6 almost lagless way to set up kills against her, lol.

EDIT: Kirby can't combo Rosalina, what are you guys talking about? Rosalina needs to DI out of stuff, the dumb hitlag from Luma allows her to jump out. Kirby doesn't even need combos in this MU when D-Tilt > F-Smash exists, though. Upper Cutter juggling allows Kirby to extend combos pretty far, though, given the circumstances.
 
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ChikoLad

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as he can duck under everything Luma has
I thought this to be true for the longest time, but recently I discovered that when Rosalina crouches, Luma moves down to crouching level too. When Rosalina stands back up, Luma doesn't go back to standing level until a moment after. What this means is that Luma can actually perform all of his attacks at crouching level, and they hit a crouching Kirby just fine. Rosalina just has to crouch, and start whatever attack as she is getting back up. It's pretty safe too, since Rosalina has a fairly quick crouch walk that makes it easy to space herself out. Also, both Rosalina and Luma can angle their Side Smash downwards, so Kirby can easily be hit with it even without the crouching trick.

D-Smash doesn't really reliably kill
D-Smash is one of Rosalina's most reliable on stage KO moves if you hit with the second kick. At the very least, you're always guaranteed to get them offstage at a low angle, perfect for follow-ups. Luma's D-Smash is also great, especially at knocking people into the second kick of Rosalina's. This move takes Kirby out at particularly low percents too, since he is so light.

Rosalina does NOT get Luma.
Yes she does, if you think this, then you aren't playing against players who know how to use Luma (this goes for any MU with Rosalina). A lone Luma is much more mobile than Kirby is if you know how to control him properly, you can easily use him in ways that lead to using Kirby as a football being passed between Rosalina and Luma. Like I said, Luma can even outrange Kirby with some moves too, so it's not that hard to use him as a separate entity, and using him as a disjoint is just as easy.

EDIT: Since I posted, I'm gonna give the MU 70:30 in Rosalina's favour, regardless of customs or default.
 
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Aunt Jemima

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I thought this to be true for the longest time, but recently I discovered that when Rosalina crouches, Luma moves down to crouching level too. When Rosalina stands back up, Luma doesn't go back to standing level until a moment after. What this means is that Luma can actually perform all of his attacks at crouching level, and they hit a crouching Kirby just fine. Rosalina just has to crouch, and start whatever attack as she is getting back up. It's pretty safe too, since Rosalina has a fairly quick crouch walk that makes it easy to space herself out. Also, both Rosalina and Luma can angle their Side Smash downwards, so Kirby can easily be hit with it even without the crouching trick.



D-Smash is one of Rosalina's most reliable on stage KO moves if you hit with the second kick. At the very least, you're always guaranteed to get them offstage at a low angle, perfect for follow-ups. Luma's D-Smash is also great, especially at knocking people into the second kick of Rosalina's. This move takes Kirby out at particularly low percents too, since he is so light.



Yes she does, if you think this, then you aren't playing against players who know how to use Luma (this goes for any MU with Rosalina). A lone Luma is much more mobile than Kirby is if you know how to control him properly, you can easily use him in ways that lead to using Kirby as a football being passed between Rosalina and Luma. Like I said, Luma can even outrange Kirby with some moves too, so it's not that hard to use him as a separate entity, and using him as a disjoint is just as easy.
I had no idea about D-Smash, lol. Sorry about that. Is the second kick hitting in front or behind Rosalina?

Rosalina having to waste time crouching really isn't that big of a deal. Once Luma is crouched down to Kirby's level, Kirby now has the option to approach with SH aerials, as Luma isn't in the way. Rosalina still out-spaces Kirby, but Luma usually would get in the way and end up with a punished Kirby due to hitlag. I know about the crouch thing, as it's particularly useful for hitting Kirby with those shooting Star Bit things, but having to use even that little amount of time screws her up and lets Kirby get in, which you don't want.

Also, about the "Rosalina does NOT get Luma", I'm referring to Kirby being able to knock Luma away so easily. Rosalina doesn't get Luma almost 80% of matches if Kirby is making proper punishes. Using him as a separate entity or a disjoint will end up getting him killed, either way. Kirby can abuse Rosalina during this time, so having Luma fly off the stage isn't that welcoming. It may be a dumb way to see it, but I treat Luma as the Levin Sword. Once it's gone, the character is no longer threatening.
 

ChikoLad

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I thought this was the argument you didn't want anyone using anymore
There are plenty of excellent players who genuinely don't know how to use Luma that well, and can only use him as a disjoint. That's why I specifically mentioned Luma, not Rosalina.

It's completely different to saying "all of the players you play against are crap", which is just straight up **** flinging. What I said is more like saying "that Shulk player you know is really good at spacing his quicker attacks for the Buster Monado Art, but he seems to struggle when he needs to switch to Smash Art and get early KOs with his slower Smash Attacks, so you really shouldn't say Shulk's Smash attacks are crap because of this player".

Is the second kick hitting in front or behind Rosalina?
Behind, which is preferable. It means Luma can knock people into her second kick with his first, and it makes it much better for timing a punish against rolls.

Once Luma is crouched down to Kirby's level, Kirby now has the option to approach with SH aerials, as Luma isn't in the way.
Which are telegraphed enough for Rosalina to react with a shield or simply crouch walk away. Or, if customs are on, Luma Guardian. Will deny every single approach Kirby has, especially up close.

Also, about the "Rosalina does NOT get Luma", I'm referring to Kirby being able to knock Luma away so easily.
You mean like almost every single other character on this roster? Kirby hasn't got anything special against Luma. If a Rosalina player is losing Luma all of the time, they aren't utilising Luma correctly, period (only real immediate exception to this is Pac-Man, where it is genuinely difficult to hold on to Luma no matter what). Luma is inherently easy to knock off, that's why Rosalina players should be going out of their way to make Luma really mobile and learning how to protect him. Or, do what I sometimes do, and outright leave Luma out to the side at regular intervals so he doesn't get hit. Since Luma has amazing KO potential, I want him more at higher percents (and in Kirby's case, relatively low percents since he is so light).
 
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iiGGYxD

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I've played with what was a kirby main, now switched to diddy a good amount of times to have a decent idea on the mu. From what I have played, Kirby being floaty and not having a good option vs Rosalina's juggle game hurts a lot. When Rosalina has kirby in the air that is when you will see the mu swing drastically. It can be extremely difficult to land vs a Rosalina who is watching your landings. Uair beats Kirby's dair and Kirby's down b can be predictable and easily punished.

On the flipside, recovering vs a kirby is one of the scariest things i've encountered in this game yet. Kirby's dair > footstool setup can end a rosa's stock at any % so I recommend recovering high even if it means taking a bit of %...of course this changes if you are in kill % or not.

I personally have not struggled with keeping luma safe in this mu.. Rosalina can safely poke at kirby with jabs and tilts until she gets kirby airborne then commence the juggling. I feel the kill potential is more in Rosalina's favor in this mu and I feel when Rosalina is in the advantageous position she can capitialize on it and close out the stock better compared to Kirby. This isn't a mu to sleep on, but I feel Rosalina can handle this mu just fine with patience and solid spacing.

I'll put the mu down for 6:4 Rosalina
 

9Tales

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There are plenty of excellent players who genuinely don't know how to use Luma that well, and can only use him as a disjoint. That's why I specifically mentioned Luma, not Rosalina.

It's completely different to saying "all of the players you play against are crap", which is just straight up **** flinging. What I said is more like saying "that Shulk player you know is really good at spacing his quicker attacks for the Buster Monado Art, but he seems to struggle when he needs to switch to Smash Art and get early KOs with his slower Smash Attacks, so you really shouldn't say Shulk's Smash attacks are crap because of this player".
Saying all the Rosalina and Luma players some one fought don't know how to use Luma means they don't know how to properly use their character. It's Exactly the same as saying all the Roslina players some one fights are 'crap" or "bad" or "not good" You're just specifying a specific part of all Roslaina player's play as being bad rather than their game over all.

I mean I guess I'm being petty here but with this reasoning I could have said: "based on your comments I'm sure you've only fought "good" captain falcons that happen to be bad at follow ups and combos" rather than saying "you've only fought bad captain falcons" and my argument would have suddenly begun holding weight.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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Kirby would stand a decent chance against Rosa(I'm giving from what I know online)

Rosa is more of a defensive character if I am correct. She does not necessarily have the best approach nor camping ability.
Because Kirby has an average dash speed, he isn't too slow to get in.
She is light, has a... Weird recovery that can be ede guarded or punished.
I would recommend staying on the ground when fighting her.
She does outrange us, most prominently in the air, but we are small and not even she is that fast so her mobility may not be too much of a hastle.
This is where we must be patient, and get in those punishes, if you can get a grab, go for it, Kirby's throws have decent knock back that can send her a far distance while we can quickly Kill Luma. If she does have Luma, that's what is generally recommended to go after first.
Possibly the worst position for us to be in is above her, where her Ariel's and long ranged utilt or usmash can easily juggle us.
(In this case would flat stages be a better stage then platforms?)
Anyway, she has some punishable attacks, which we can capitalize on. Even though we are light, onstage, she actually won't kill us all too easily unless its with Uair.
Been a while since I faced some Rosas online to know much more, but I hope what I explained is enough and/or acceptable.
Overall, I don't really think its anything higher then 65:35, at a minimal its probably 55:45 in Rosas favor.
 

Aunt Jemima

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Behind, which is preferable. It means Luma can knock people into her second kick with his first, and it makes it much better for timing a punish against rolls.

Which are telegraphed enough for Rosalina to react with a shield or simply crouch walk away. Or, if customs are on, Luma Guardian. Will deny every single approach Kirby has, especially up close.


You mean like almost every single other character on this roster? Kirby hasn't got anything special against Luma. If a Rosalina player is losing Luma all of the time, they aren't utilising Luma correctly, period (only real immediate exception to this is Pac-Man, where it is genuinely difficult to hold on to Luma no matter what). Luma is inherently easy to knock off, that's why Rosalina players should be going out of their way to make Luma really mobile and learning how to protect him. Or, do what I sometimes do, and outright leave Luma out to the side at regular intervals so he doesn't get hit. Since Luma has amazing KO potential, I want him more at higher percents (and in Kirby's case, relatively low percents since he is so light).
I don't know if you've fought any custom Kirby players (or any GOOD custom Kirby players), but almost every attack Kirby lands sends Luma flying away. I don't know much about her MUs against other characters, but Kirby can get Luma away as fast as MK can get Luma away (because apparently MK wrecks Luma?). Everything Kirby does sends Luma flying half the stage away into it's death. Kirby does have special things against Luma - being able to launch Luma away just by using a f2 OoS option, having his own Luma that utterly demolishes the real thing, having throw combos that specifically launch Luma away, etc. are all "special things". Luma doesn't live during this MU. It isn't a "utilising Luma correctly" when you can't protect him. This isn't hitting Luma when he's separated or when he's sitting around doing nothing. This is attacking Rosalina while also destroying Luma. Keeping Luma mobile doesn't change much unless he's separated, because then Kirby can just as easily hit both of you.

Luma can't attack while shielding (unless some new tech has been discovered), so if you're going to sit in your shield, not much changes when Kirby has a moving command grab and a f6 grab. I don't have extensive knowledge of Guardian Luma, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't it punishable? Kirby could just charge up his Luma while it's going on. I wonder if Kirby's Luma goes through Guardian Luma... that'd be funny.

D-Smash is cool, although I really don't ever remember being killed by it. Unless I'm at extremely high percents against Rage Rosalina, I've never been killed by her D-Smash. Not doubting it's kill potential, though. Maybe I'm just always hit across the stage.

Also, Kirby being light doesn't change anything when Rosalina is just as light with around the same kill potential. Landing a kill move against Kirby really isn't easy as long as he's mobile (but not using double jumps due to hurtbox expansion), while Kirby can easily land kill moves against Rosalina due to his D-Tilt. Most of Kirby's kills come from edgeguarding her poor recovery or Upper Cutter combos, though.


EDIT: I'd like to remind everybody that everything I'm saying is with customs on. Kirby is pretty much the worst character in the game without customs, so I don't do anything with customs off.
 
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ChikoLad

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Saying all the Rosalina and Luma players some one fought don't know how to use Luma means they don't know how to properly use their character. It's Exactly the same as saying all the Roslina players some one fights are 'crap" or "bad" or "not good" You're just specifying a specific part of all Roslaina player's play as being bad rather than their game over all.

I mean I guess I'm being petty here but with this reasoning I could have said: "based on your comments I'm sure you've only fought "good" captain falcons that happen to be bad at follow ups and combos" rather than saying "you've only fought bad captain falcons" and my argument would have suddenly begun holding weight.
No, someone can be excellent with playing as Rosalina and using Luma as a normal disjoint, but crap at using him as a separate entity. And to be quite frank, this is the case with the vast majority of Rosalina players.

but almost every attack Kirby lands sends Luma flying away.
Again, as I said, every character can do this. This is nothing special.

It isn't a "utilising Luma correctly" when you can't protect him.
...If the Rosalina player can't protect him, they aren't playing the MU efficiently. That's my point.

Luma can't attack while shielding (unless some new tech has been discovered), so if you're going to sit in your shield, not much changes when Kirby has a moving command grab and a f6 grab.
Kirby can't cancel his aerials into Inhale, nor can he grab during them. I was talking about if you see an SH aerial come out, you can shield. If he's using Inhale or something, obviously you're going to use a different option, as shield won't work. Guardian Luma denies all of these though.

but isn't it punishable?
If used in correctly, but that's because it's a counter of sorts. If Kirby is jumping straight into Luma with an attack, Guardian Luma will beat it.

kill move against Kirby really isn't easy as long as he's mobile
I've never had a problem with this. Rosalina is more mobile than Kirby is, in the air and on the ground. This is never a problem.

Most of Kirby's kills come from edgeguarding her poor recovery
It isn't a poor recovery, edge guard attempts can be beat by flying over his head as he tries to make them. Or going under the stage.
 

9Tales

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No, someone can be excellent with playing as Rosalina and using Luma as a normal disjoint, but crap at using him as a separate entity. And to be quite frank, this is the case with the vast majority of Rosalina players.
Just like someone can be excellent at playing Captain Falcon using a normal fast pased zone breaking aggression but crap at following up with combos. :p
 

9Tales

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Alright, well, me being a butt hole aside. I have like straight up zero experience with custom Kirby so i can't speak for that but I def think Rosalina has a significant advantage in standard play. Like enough to warrant the 70:30 ratio.

Rosalina has way way way more space control than Kirby and just beats out everything with disjoint. Kirby's not zone breaky enough to get in on her reliably and doesn't KO Luma well (again can't speak for customs) You also can't argue that Kirby KOs faster, earlier or easier.
 

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@ mario123007 mario123007 : Quickhero Quickhero does have a huge point there. If you're going to continue posting ratios here, please read the new rule that I implemented during Ike's discussion period; in other words, make a very good explanation for your ratio input.
Well sorry about that, I really try to explain it as much as possible.I just really like to give the first shoot. So of course I might change when seeing the later comments. I don't really know much Smash terms. And that is what I think about this MU. Although Kirby can do good combos, his standard hitbox isn't that big than Rosalina's, but I dare say Kirby's dash attack can be a reliable attack on Luma. And like I had said before, Kirby has a more better recovery, so I guess a good Kirby may try to do a good air game on Rosalina.
I'm sorry to just type only a couple of words, are did you put the character lowest limit in the rules? If not, set how my characters at least. I know when I give a ratio needs full explaination, but what is the "full explaination"? Is it I need to explain pros and cons more longer? Like split into two paragraphs?

I low it down this time, I give 60:40.
Not enough? How about a video?
This Rosalina is @ Parcheesy Parcheesy , nice match. :)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zic6paEjSKM
Alright, well, me being a butt hole aside. I have like straight up zero experience with custom Kirby so i can't speak for that but I def think Rosalina has a significant advantage in standard play. Like enough to warrant the 70:30 ratio.

Rosalina has way way way more space control than Kirby and just beats out everything with disjoint. Kirby's not zone breaky enough to get in on her reliably and doesn't KO Luma well (again can't speak for customs) You also can't argue that Kirby KOs faster, earlier or easier.
I used think the match up ratio the same as you too. But don't forget Kirby and Rosalina are the weight. I think it is the air game it depends. Kirby has a much more controlable recovery than Rosalina, it is slow(Which may give Rosalina a chance attack him), but very easy, and if Rosalina didn't lauch Kirby far enough, he will always come back. Rosalina can then use Luma to taje Kirby down or give him damage. So again, because of Luma, Kirby will mostly have disadvantage in this MU, but when without Luma, I think the MU is pretty fair. And that's right, Kirby's Smash are just so fast, so if Kirby managed to give enough damage on Rosalina, he could KO her with just a quick Smash within 90% damage near the edge.
 
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Mazdamaxsti

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But at the same time there are tons of points putting Rosalina at (at the very least) a moderate advantage. She severely out ranges Kirby, even without Luma (heck, even Luma out ranges Kirby on some points), he's terribly easy to intercept and edge guard, he's even lighter than Rosalina is and Rosalina has a much more powerful moveset on average (fully charged hammer being the exception, but you'll never get her with that), he moves around slower than Rosalina does so he can't make easy getaways, and she can combo him much better than he can her because of her longer reach, better ability to intercept, and Luma co-operation. That's just the tip of the iceberg too.
Severely outranges? lolno. Wanna know who severely outranges Kirby? Characters like Shulk and Marth with their long disjoints. Rosa does not, at all. Kirby has sooo many tools to get rid of luma (b-air, f-air or retreating f-air, n-air ((my personal favourite, since it pushes Rosa too far while in sheild yet still knocks luma away, and since it has no landing lag you can almost immedicately grab her without consequence after fastfall)), all of his specials, and even all his tilts.

Rosalina is more powerful, yet Kirby can duck under F-smash , jab (at least most hits I think), and many more. Rosa has to crouch for luma to hit him, but by then Rosa just left herself open/given Kirby enough time to Shield. Kirby can make easy getaways, it isn't hard. Also, that point about long/short reach determining combo potential is 100% false. It is knockback, and Kirby can combo rosa easier.

To recap: Kirby gives Rosa a hard time, so it is no means a moderate advantage. Reach is not a big factoring thing unless you're against the big reaching boyz, comboing is not as easy but can now kill combo, edge-guarding a rosa is a piece of cake (like really lol, a well timed rock/d-air can decimate Rosa at like 50%), luma is literally dead most of the game, and more. Also, Rosa's famous u-air to u-air will hardly work on a Kirby due to him being too light to combo kill with it, but when at kill percent it won't combo.

I am starting to rotate over to Reserved's side for Kirby having the advantage, but I don't wanna stretch it. I'mm sticking with 50:50 (which can be easily agreed on) until somebody convinces me Kirby can do better, because there is no way I'm moving past 40:60.

EDIT: Forgot to add that Kirby has more kill set-ups on Rosa due to her weight than Rosa has because of Kirby's weight.
 
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ChikoLad

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>"You know who out ranges Kirby? Marth."

Rosalina out ranges Marth.

Like oh my god the more and more I visit this thread the sillier it gets.
 

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>"You know who out ranges Kirby? Marth."

Rosalina out ranges Marth.

Like oh my god the more and more I visit this thread the sillier it gets.
Oh, about marth, I didn't just mean sword length. I meant disjoints + length. Marth has more (and better) disjoints than Rosa, which makes it even harder for Kirby to hit since range. Sorry for not being clear about that one.
 

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No please...I was doing awful that game, and slopes only made Kirby's height more of an issue. Let's all just pretend that video was never made and shove it back into the dark alley of embarrassing losses.
Oh... I only found two videos of Rosalina vs Kirby, and I didn't know it was you until I saw the title. yeah honest to sayyou were a bit awful, but it was a nice match to me.
Well what about this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zPKxiBNjxs
 

ChikoLad

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Oh, about marth, I didn't just mean sword length. I meant disjoints + length. Marth has more (and better) disjoints than Rosa, which makes it even harder for Kirby to hit since range. Sorry for not being clear about that one.
Utilt, Dtilt, Uair, Dair, Fair, and DSmash are all disjoints of Rosalina's and they out range Marth's.

And you know, that little star guy we all keep forgetting about for some reason.

In regards to Kirby though, he's severely outranged by nearly every character in the game, and has nothing that offsets that weakness. It's why he's considered one of the worst in the game. Just look at his stubs he calls arms and feet. They are not outranging anything.

What the heck do I keep coming back to this thread for? It's seriously just mains of other characters trying to claim Rosalina is crap against their character with no substance. It's all character pride and no legitimacy.
 
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mario123007

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Utilt, Dtilt, Uair, Dair, Fair, and DSmash are all disjoints of Rosalina's and they out range Marth's.

And you know, that little star guy we all keep forgetting about for some reason.

In regards to Kirby though, he's severely outranged by nearly every character in the game, and has nothing that offsets that weakness. It's why he's considered one of the worst in the game. Just look at his stubs he calls arms and feet. They are not outranging anything.

What the heck do I keep coming back to this thread for? It's seriously just mains of other characters trying to claim Rosalina is crap against their character with no substance. It's all character pride and no legitimacy.
Kirby to be honest really doesn't have much range... but his Smash grabs, and recovery are just somewhat superior than Rosalina.

I don't mind you coming back to this thread. And why can't you right? Everyone has their own opinions as long as they sound legit.
Yeah, I don't really like to see a comment that just keeps despising Rosalina rather than logically analyze her pros and cons, but please aware there will be some characters are just favorable against Rosalina, while some are unfavorable. We want MU analysis, no flaming.
 
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Mazdamaxsti

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Utilt, Dtilt, Uair, Dair, Fair, and DSmash are all disjoints of Rosalina's and they out range Marth's.

And you know, that little star guy we all keep forgetting about for some reason.

In regards to Kirby though, he's severely outranged by nearly every character in the game, and has nothing that offsets that weakness. It's why he's considered one of the worst in the game. Just look at his stubs he calls arms and feet. They are not outranging anything.

What the heck do I keep coming back to this thread for? It's seriously just mains of other characters trying to claim Rosalina is crap against their character with no substance. It's all character pride and no legitimacy.
Have you ever played Marth, or ever SEEN marth either? Better yet, have you see YOUR MAIN? Rosa's disjoints are not as big as Marth's, plus Marth has more of them.

A common misconception is how Kirby's range makes him one of the worst characters in the game, but that simply ain't true. Kirby has so many things to simply counter people who have that impression, and its quite great actually.

Anyways, since Kirby is so controversial right now, can we just agree on 50:50 .-.
 

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Have you ever played Marth, or ever SEEN marth either? Better yet, have you see YOUR MAIN? Rosa's disjoints are not as big as Marth's, plus Marth has more of them.

A common misconception is how Kirby's range makes him one of the worst characters in the game, but that simply ain't true. Kirby has so many things to simply counter people who have that impression, and its quite great actually.

Anyways, since Kirby is so controversial right now, can we just agree on 50:50 .-.
My brother mains Marth, so I know him too well.
But hey, this isn't Marth MU discussion any more. Talk about Kirby.
 

ChikoLad

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Kirby to be honest really doesn't have much range... but his Smash grabs, and recovery are just somewhat superior than Rosalina.

I don't mind you coming back to this thread. And why can't you right? Everyone has their own opinions as long as they sound legit.
Yeah, I don't really like to see a comment that just keeps despising Rosalina rather than logically analyze her pros and cons, but please aware there will be some characters are just favorable against Rosalina, while some are unfavorable. We want MU analysis, no flaming.
Smash grabs?

Also Rosalina has the better recovery, quicker and therefore more difficult to intercept compared to Kirby. Especially with customs on, Launch Star Plus gets her back to the stage near instantly.

Have you ever played Marth, or ever SEEN marth either? Better yet, have you see YOUR MAIN? Rosa's disjoints are not as big as Marth's, plus Marth has more of them.

A common misconception is how Kirby's range makes him one of the worst characters in the game, but that simply ain't true. Kirby has so many things to simply counter people who have that impression, and its quite great actually.

Anyways, since Kirby is so controversial right now, can we just agree on 50:50 .-.
I've played a ton of great Marth's and if they ever beat me, it's never because they had better range or disjoints than me, because they simply don't.

"So many things to simply counter people with that impression"

What is that even supposed to mean? I wasn't aware countering impressions was a part of the Smash meta.

And there isn't anything controversial here, most people think this is easily in Rosalina's favour. I'm standing by my 70:30 score (with or without customs), and nothing you have said has even remotely changed my mind.
 

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Smash grabs?

Also Rosalina has the better recovery, quicker and therefore more difficult to intercept compared to Kirby. Especially with customs on, Launch Star Plus gets her back to the stage near instantly.



I've played a ton of great Marth's and if they ever beat me, it's never because they had better range or disjoints than me, because they simply don't.

"So many things to simply counter people with that impression"

What is that even supposed to mean? I wasn't aware countering impressions was a part of the Smash meta.

And there isn't anything controversial here, most people think this is easily in Rosalina's favour. I'm standing by my 70:30 score (with or without customs), and nothing you have said has even remotely changed my mind.
Um... what I used to mean was just his front Smash, Grab, I just suddenly got a bit Smash on my tongue too much. Kirby has quite a powerful down throw I should say.
Rosalina's recovery is good too, but it's a bit hard to control in my opinion, you might just miss the edge. but Kirby all you have to do is just float and then up B.
 
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Mazdamaxsti

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Smash grabs?

Also Rosalina has the better recovery, quicker and therefore more difficult to intercept compared to Kirby. Especially with customs on, Launch Star Plus gets her back to the stage near instantly.



I've played a ton of great Marth's and if they ever beat me, it's never because they had better range or disjoints than me, because they simply don't.

"So many things to simply counter people with that impression"

What is that even supposed to mean? I wasn't aware countering impressions was a part of the Smash meta.

And there isn't anything controversial here, most people think this is easily in Rosalina's favour. I'm standing by my 70:30 score (with or without customs), and nothing you have said has even remotely changed my mind.
Rosalina has an easily intercepted recovery, how dont you know that yet? It may be fast, but simply timing an easy stone can kill Rosa at 80%, you can even use a d-air for a guaranteed kill if you follow it up at LOWER percents.

I never said Marth outranges Rosa so it's bad for Rosa. Marth's range leaves Kirby at a disadvantage. Rosa does have good range/disjoints (u-air and d-air come to mind first), but overall Marth has more and more USEFUL against Kirby. Rosa's range outranges Kirby, but not enough to create a disadvantage about it.

What I mean by "Counter people with that impression" was that if people think Kirby's range is too short, first they're wrong and second they are using the wrong mindset. When Kirby gets in (which trust me, he will), they will be going on a wild ride, since Kirby's combos are what puts him back in.

Have you ever faced a good Kirby? I extremely doubt it.

F-air and b-air actually have ok range, d-air too, only u-air is the stubby one. F-smash has reaaallyyy good reach too. U-air and U-smash are stubby but useful, but d-smash is situational.

Anyways, Kirby simply has too many tools to be considered 30:70. Early kill setups, a ton of luma pressure, easy off-stage kills (no customs, but with customs the score would stay the same), etc.

Kirby is one of the most controversial characters in Smash rn, in SWF Tier List he got -7 +6 or something, second most up votes and down votes in his tier. Some lists put him high, some low. All Kirby mains in this thread haven't gone down past even 40:60, and one of our best Kirby mains voting 70:30 in Kirby's favour.

My vote is 50:50, and so far you've given so little points except for range, and "this point is kind of sort of inaccurate-ish!".
 
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ChikoLad

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Rosalina has an easily intercepted recovery, how dont you know that yet? It may be fast, but simply timing an easy stone can kill Rosa at 80%, you can even use a d-air for a guaranteed kill if you follow it up at LOWER percents.
Oh it's easily intercepted if you use it like a scrub, but then you remember that you can literally fly under the stage to escape people trying to gimp you, you can angle it high, etc. Also it's quick. Kirby just slowly floats back. He can attack during this time, but his aerials won't beat Rosalina's (or Luma's).

I never said Marth outranges Rosa so it's bad for Rosa. Marth's range leaves Kirby at a disadvantage. Rosa does have good range/disjoints (u-air and d-air come to mind first), but overall Marth has more and more USEFUL against Kirby. Rosa's range outranges Kirby, but not enough to create a disadvantage about it.
If Kirby is outranged by Marth (and you claim that's a problem), who is outranged by Rosalina, how can Rosalina's range not leave Kirby severely outranged and be a problem? You aren't making any sense here.

What I mean by "Counter people with that impression" was that if people think Kirby's range is too short, first they're wrong and second they are using the wrong mindset. When Kirby gets in (which trust me, he will), they will be going on a wild ride, since Kirby's combos are what puts him back in.
Kirby has good combos, but Rosalina has better combos (both in terms of how long they can be kept going, damage output, and possible finishers for KOs), and they are easier to land hits with because of the much better range. Kirby has bad range, and nothing substantial enough to make up for it. He has good combos, but they don't surpass Rosalina's, or many other characters for that matter, in part because his landing lag is (unfortunately) bad in this game compared to past games. This is in contrast to Rosalina's mild landing lag overall and her ability to have Luma throw out aerials without suffering any landing lag herself.

F-smash has reaaallyyy good reach too.
It's alright, but it doesn't reach across a third of FD under any circumtances:




(This is actually a downward angled "Luma Teeter Boost" F-Smash, it would actually go further if angled straight.)

My vote is 50:50, and so far you've given so little points except for range, and "this point is kind of sort of inaccurate-ish!".
I've given way more than that and your statement right here proves that you are both intentionally being ignorant and only wish to spread fallacious information for the sake of "muh character pride".

Seriously I shouldn't post in this thread, it's a cancerous pool of ignorance. But I see that ignorance and I just have to say something.
 
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Dee-SmashinBoss

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Rosalina has an easily intercepted recovery, how dont you know that yet? It may be fast, but simply timing an easy stone can kill Rosa at 80%, you can even use a d-air for a guaranteed kill if you follow it up at LOWER percents.

I never said Marth outranges Rosa so it's bad for Rosa. Marth's range leaves Kirby at a disadvantage. Rosa does have good range/disjoints (u-air and d-air come to mind first), but overall Marth has more and more USEFUL against Kirby. Rosa's range outranges Kirby, but not enough to create a disadvantage about it.

What I mean by "Counter people with that impression" was that if people think Kirby's range is too short, first they're wrong and second they are using the wrong mindset. When Kirby gets in (which trust me, he will), they will be going on a wild ride, since Kirby's combos are what puts him back in.

Have you ever faced a good Kirby? I extremely doubt it.

F-air and b-air actually have ok range, d-air too, only u-air is the stubby one. F-smash has reaaallyyy good reach too. U-air and U-smash are stubby but useful, but d-smash is situational.

Anyways, Kirby simply has too many tools to be considered 30:70. Early kill setups, a ton of luma pressure, easy off-stage kills (no customs, but with customs the score would stay the same), etc.

Kirby is one of the most controversial characters in Smash rn, in SWF Tier List he got -7 +6 or something, second most up votes and down votes in his tier. Some lists put him high, some low. All Kirby mains in this thread haven't gone down past even 40:60, and one of our best Kirby mains voting 70:30 in Kirby's favour.

My vote is 50:50, and so far you've given so little points except for range, and "this point is kind of sort of inaccurate-ish!".
I think this is only slightly in Rosa's favor 60:40
Lets be honest, kirby actually fares pretty well against most of the top 10, like sheik or villager or (sometimes) Diddy.
Kirby's lack of range isn't as big of a problem people think. To me, its generally his approach.
But Kirby has the lowest crouch correct? This I significant in MU like shiek or ZZS, where if they can't use their projectile or land some of their attacks, he has the advantage right there, his attacks in terms of speed, is comparible to the other characters.
He sometimes doesn't have to approach, but space, poke and punish, or even force the opponent to approach him.

Now Rosa, she is defensive, and Kirby is likely go into have to approach, let's be honest Rosa's approach nor ability is really any better then Kirby's because some of her attacks are easy to dodge and punish and Kirby has faster attacks overall(on the ground at least) So Kirby will rely on punishes and separating her from Luma, which isn't too hard,
What we do suffer from her, is her Uair, Utilt Usmash, because we do have a hard time landing without getting hit from one of those, but our multiple jump slightly compensates for that.
She is.... Not TOO difficult to edge guard because if they go for Ledges just try and time something like a nair, and because she goes so high, if she goes onstage she may still be in the animation before she lands taking additional lag.
Luma will be a hastle if not taken care of, but in a way, our Lima(if we get inhale) may be superior because of its knock back and I think it out powers her if you were to release it at the same time
I can't explain much more typing on this tablet is too annoying.
Overall I think Rosa still has this, but only ever so slightly because we can still hold our ground.
 
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