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ChaosDrifter
Smash Lord
so i think we might be taking green greens off the list, if not this monthly possibly next.
i have video proof of the gayness of the stage and i've been thinking about taking it off before too. Any thoughts on this?
i have video proof of the gayness of the stage and i've been thinking about taking it off before too. Any thoughts on this?
T-block
B2B TST
i'll agree to it if luigi's mansion is legalized
i'm too tired to argue right now
i'm too tired to argue right now
DTP
L o s t - in reality~
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2008
- Messages
- 8,125
YEEEESSSSS!!!!
**** that stage. I will seriously take singles more seriously and enter more if it's taken off.
EDIT: Yeah sure, I prefer Luigi's over GG's anyways. That stage can still suck it though.
Limeee
Smash Champion
lets BAN both of those
and marth dittos are the best dittos <3
time to be little havok and main marth mk and snake
and marth dittos are the best dittos <3
time to be little havok and main marth mk and snake
T-block
B2B TST
i'm dead serious btw
i did better against luke's MK on LM than on SV. it was only a few friendly matches, so it doesn't say much, but still.
honestly, what is the concern for LM again? mk/olimar too good? matches going to time? running away? i don't even know anymore - every time someone whines about it it's a different reason
i did better against luke's MK on LM than on SV. it was only a few friendly matches, so it doesn't say much, but still.
honestly, what is the concern for LM again? mk/olimar too good? matches going to time? running away? i don't even know anymore - every time someone whines about it it's a different reason
ChaosDrifter
Smash Lord
it's because you like the stage, so everyone's against it haha
T-block
B2B TST
but i thought it takes no skill to play mk on LM?
Limeee
Smash Champion
T-block
B2B TST
i've never been convinced that mk/oli gain any sort of overwhelming advantage there
yes sonic can time out nicely there. mk can time out nicely on smashville. sonic is garbage anyways, what's he doing with the lead?
yes sonic can time out nicely there. mk can time out nicely on smashville. sonic is garbage anyways, what's he doing with the lead?
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Yes I do.... It's the BEST IC's in the USA vs an ARGUABLE best sonic. X beating lain is an upset. Obviously it's not impossible for sonic to win, but IC's is like top 8 in the game, and shares similar good stages that sonic has.
Mike, show the video proof?
Kuraudo
4Aerith
you have no idea.
--
@ Luke
Give credit where it's due. The tier list got a swift kick in the balls. This is about skill and using what your character has at their disposal to overwhelm and overcome.
Sonic has a fairly decent match-up against Ice Climbers if I do recall. Give Sonic room to run and take his time to seperate the two and as the fastest character in the game he can run with it.
This was only an upset because it's the first time that two top players of their respective characters faced. That and there's still that air surrounding Sonic that he's "not good".
Get real. He's viable. Tough to use, but viable; especially against some of the higher ups.
T-block
B2B TST
ugh that last post of mine was bad. holy
i told you i am TOO TIRED TO ARGUE
i will play your sonic on LM and you can try to time me out all you want. i highly doubt you'll doubt you'll be able to kill before like....190%.
better point: do you honestly think that sonic is unbeatable or close to unbeatable on that stage? if not, then what's wrong with giving sonic a strong CP?
i told you i am TOO TIRED TO ARGUE
i will play your sonic on LM and you can try to time me out all you want. i highly doubt you'll doubt you'll be able to kill before like....190%.
better point: do you honestly think that sonic is unbeatable or close to unbeatable on that stage? if not, then what's wrong with giving sonic a strong CP?
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Mike, see post 6890? Now look ath 6896. You'll see what I mean by fixing your avatar. It's not just your avatar, but your whole profile display I guess.
Brandon... It's an upset because no one would think that lain would lose to X. Like sure there was a possibility, but you can't say it wasn't an upset.
Brandon... It's an upset because no one would think that lain would lose to X. Like sure there was a possibility, but you can't say it wasn't an upset.
Kuraudo
4Aerith
Sonic is not unbeatable on any stage. Even Luigi's Mansion. It is a distinctly unfair advantage based upon the fact that he is that **** fast. Sonic has troubles killing, yes. But he is a great punishing character and can rack up the damage nicely. It just so happens that his punishing options don't fall under the kill category often.
Luigi's Mansion becomes nothing but a big campfest on the first floor where absolutely no deaths occur. Also, I don't need Luigi's Mansion to time people out either. Give me room to run and I will take my sweet time waiting for openings out of you, whether you're impatient or not.
[EDIT]
Here's the thing though, Luke. X has proven in the past that he's conquered top players in the past. INCLUDING being the closest Sonic to even defeating Mew2King in a set. If you were expecting Lain to win or at least win more soundly, you're sorely mistaken. It's cool that X pulled off the win on Lain like that, but it's only an upset because of the ignorance that everyone has over what the guy's accomplished against other achieving players.
Luigi's Mansion becomes nothing but a big campfest on the first floor where absolutely no deaths occur. Also, I don't need Luigi's Mansion to time people out either. Give me room to run and I will take my sweet time waiting for openings out of you, whether you're impatient or not.
[EDIT]
Here's the thing though, Luke. X has proven in the past that he's conquered top players in the past. INCLUDING being the closest Sonic to even defeating Mew2King in a set. If you were expecting Lain to win or at least win more soundly, you're sorely mistaken. It's cool that X pulled off the win on Lain like that, but it's only an upset because of the ignorance that everyone has over what the guy's accomplished against other achieving players.
T-block
B2B TST
they look identical to me
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Sooooooo... You're saying LM's shouldn't be banned?
Kuraudo
4Aerith
I'm saying that it's unfair enough that it JUST makes the banned list, in my opinion.
That first floor is counterproductive as hell. It's like Hyrule Temple from Melee, only not as big.
That first floor is counterproductive as hell. It's like Hyrule Temple from Melee, only not as big.
T-block
B2B TST
yeah that really sounds like support for LM to me...is it?
"distinctly unfair advantage" is not bad, and i can say that "objectively" because that's the precedent we set.
nobody's gonna listen to me for this paragraph, but unless the percents and stocks are perfectly tied, no deaths occurring will WITHOUT DOUBT be advantageous for one player. this SHOULD encourage the other player to remove the ceiling.
Kuraudo
4Aerith
I'll use it if it's available, but thinking about the whole roster and metagame as a whole, I don't think it's a legit counterpick. It's close to being one though.
Could go either way based upon TO decision.
Could go either way based upon TO decision.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Brandon you're so confusing. You made a post which heavily supported LM being CP .
.
T-block
B2B TST
it's close to being one... do you realize you're not really saying anything when you say that?
what does that mean? how is it "close" to being one? where is the line that we crossed that made it not legit? can you define that line?
what does that mean? how is it "close" to being one? where is the line that we crossed that made it not legit? can you define that line?
Kuraudo
4Aerith
Didn't think I was, sorry; I'll go over it one more time.
Points towards it being a CP?
• The design itself. No damaging hazards to speak of and is rather basic.
Just one point, in my opinion.
Now for being banned,
• Emphasis on bottom floor that is counterproductive to taking stocks from your opponent in order to win.
• Timing out is highly encouraged when a lead is had. Characters such as Sonic or Meta Knight excel at this when it's all they focus on.
• Destruction of top and bottom floors only for the process to repeat over and over again, thus bottom floor/timing out shenanigans rinse and repeat.
If the bottom floor wasn't the way it was, then I'd be all over this. It becomes silly when you can't kill and it becomes a game of how well you can tech. You get punished for your mistakes but live because you know how to hit the shield button just right and stop yourself.
The cons outweigh the pro in this situation, I find.
Points towards it being a CP?
• The design itself. No damaging hazards to speak of and is rather basic.
Just one point, in my opinion.
Now for being banned,
• Emphasis on bottom floor that is counterproductive to taking stocks from your opponent in order to win.
• Timing out is highly encouraged when a lead is had. Characters such as Sonic or Meta Knight excel at this when it's all they focus on.
• Destruction of top and bottom floors only for the process to repeat over and over again, thus bottom floor/timing out shenanigans rinse and repeat.
If the bottom floor wasn't the way it was, then I'd be all over this. It becomes silly when you can't kill and it becomes a game of how well you can tech. You get punished for your mistakes but live because you know how to hit the shield button just right and stop yourself.
The cons outweigh the pro in this situation, I find.
Kuraudo
4Aerith
The reasoning for wanting Luigi's Mansion is for the people who can better tolerate the cons I listed, in my opinion.
I'll take it if it's available since asides Yoshi's Island, Final Destination and Pictochat, it's a big advantage for my character. That's the only reason.
I'll take it if it's available since asides Yoshi's Island, Final Destination and Pictochat, it's a big advantage for my character. That's the only reason.
T-block
B2B TST
That's a huge question, Darren, and it'd take a long time for me answer that.
First of all, there's the idea that we should (and I say "should" with caution... there's no one correct way to play the game really) aim to preserve as much of the original game as possible. You could say "why keep it in", but in many ways it makes more sense to say "why take it out". You hear the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" said a lot, and it can be applied here: "legal until proven bannable". From an idealistic point of view, why do we ban things at all? Why do we remove elements of the game that were intentionally programmed into it? We do so because competition is impossible otherwise. Following that line of thought, if competition is still possible on a stage, in this case Luigi's Mansion, and I argue that it is, it should not be banned; and by "should not be banned", I mean "does not need to be banned".
But, Alberta has shown itself time and time again to throw idealistic approaches (and by idealistic I mean approached-from-an-ideals-perspective as opposed to non-realistic) out the window, and constantly take a more practical approach, which statements such as "if it makes the game better, why not ban it". To that, I say that making the game "better" is incredibly subjective. There is a rather popular school of thought that asserts that requiring intelligent stage use makes the game "better". There is another school of thought that asserts that focusing on player-to-player interactions makes the game "better". While members of one school obviously will not agree with those from the other school, I would hope that they can at least acknowledge that no side can be 100% correct, and that there will always be a non-trivial amount of subjectivity in this matter. This is why I never give any weight to statements of the "it makes the game better" nature - because it can only be opinion, and never truth.
Now, to answer your question on a more concrete level, the stage actually does have things to offer by its inclusion. The first, and most controversial, is the strategic depth required to play this stage properly. There is no doubt that manipulating the state of the mansion requires very tactical play, although some do question (perhaps legitimately so) whether optimal tactics are enough to overcome the advantages this stage may offer one character. A stage that requires tactics and strategy will always add competitive depth, which I support, although some may not think that depth makes the game "better". Then, there's the unique stage size. Stage boundaries are perhaps the least intrusive counterpick element in a stage. Different sizes do not drastically affect gameplay on a move-by-move basis, yet they can have a significant effect on the overall dynamic of the match. Allowing Luigi's Mansion introduces a stage into the selection pool with a high ceiling and far blast zones, and several characters will counterpick based on that quality alone. Stages with unique boundaries, ignoring the other features of the stage for a moment, add diversity to the stage pool, which is generally a good thing. Finally, it does change the balance within the character-stage universe. Most only look at the bad aspects of this - Meta Knight and Olimar being too good on this stage (again, I'm not convinced), etc. But there is also a positive way to look at that. It gives Lucario a good counterpick, for example, and that's not really a bad thing.
I hope you can appreciate how hard it is to answer a question such as "what does it add to the game though?", and see why I prefer to refute points against than provide points for (again, innocent until proven guilty). But you're absolutely right - this game does not suffer much from the loss of Luigi's Mansion. But is that really the approach you want to take? Jigglypuff is the most underplayed character in the game. She has zero dedicated mains, and has very negligible tournament results. Her optimal play also revolves heavily around planking, air camping, and stalling in general. She's a pretty boring character. Let's ban her - the game doesn't really lose anything, right?
--
now look what you've done... you made me make a proper post ._.
First of all, there's the idea that we should (and I say "should" with caution... there's no one correct way to play the game really) aim to preserve as much of the original game as possible. You could say "why keep it in", but in many ways it makes more sense to say "why take it out". You hear the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" said a lot, and it can be applied here: "legal until proven bannable". From an idealistic point of view, why do we ban things at all? Why do we remove elements of the game that were intentionally programmed into it? We do so because competition is impossible otherwise. Following that line of thought, if competition is still possible on a stage, in this case Luigi's Mansion, and I argue that it is, it should not be banned; and by "should not be banned", I mean "does not need to be banned".
But, Alberta has shown itself time and time again to throw idealistic approaches (and by idealistic I mean approached-from-an-ideals-perspective as opposed to non-realistic) out the window, and constantly take a more practical approach, which statements such as "if it makes the game better, why not ban it". To that, I say that making the game "better" is incredibly subjective. There is a rather popular school of thought that asserts that requiring intelligent stage use makes the game "better". There is another school of thought that asserts that focusing on player-to-player interactions makes the game "better". While members of one school obviously will not agree with those from the other school, I would hope that they can at least acknowledge that no side can be 100% correct, and that there will always be a non-trivial amount of subjectivity in this matter. This is why I never give any weight to statements of the "it makes the game better" nature - because it can only be opinion, and never truth.
Now, to answer your question on a more concrete level, the stage actually does have things to offer by its inclusion. The first, and most controversial, is the strategic depth required to play this stage properly. There is no doubt that manipulating the state of the mansion requires very tactical play, although some do question (perhaps legitimately so) whether optimal tactics are enough to overcome the advantages this stage may offer one character. A stage that requires tactics and strategy will always add competitive depth, which I support, although some may not think that depth makes the game "better". Then, there's the unique stage size. Stage boundaries are perhaps the least intrusive counterpick element in a stage. Different sizes do not drastically affect gameplay on a move-by-move basis, yet they can have a significant effect on the overall dynamic of the match. Allowing Luigi's Mansion introduces a stage into the selection pool with a high ceiling and far blast zones, and several characters will counterpick based on that quality alone. Stages with unique boundaries, ignoring the other features of the stage for a moment, add diversity to the stage pool, which is generally a good thing. Finally, it does change the balance within the character-stage universe. Most only look at the bad aspects of this - Meta Knight and Olimar being too good on this stage (again, I'm not convinced), etc. But there is also a positive way to look at that. It gives Lucario a good counterpick, for example, and that's not really a bad thing.
I hope you can appreciate how hard it is to answer a question such as "what does it add to the game though?", and see why I prefer to refute points against than provide points for (again, innocent until proven guilty). But you're absolutely right - this game does not suffer much from the loss of Luigi's Mansion. But is that really the approach you want to take? Jigglypuff is the most underplayed character in the game. She has zero dedicated mains, and has very negligible tournament results. Her optimal play also revolves heavily around planking, air camping, and stalling in general. She's a pretty boring character. Let's ban her - the game doesn't really lose anything, right?
--
now look what you've done... you made me make a proper post ._.
Limeee
Smash Champion
what is the point of trying to keep the game as close to the original as possible?
the premise of the game was customization, sakurai made it so that you can have whatever rule set you want, so why keep it as default as possible?
IMO we should adjust the rules to make the game as exciting and competetive as possible (competetive is not mario party stagelist)
bottem line, the game is more exciting on neutral ( or fairer) stages
inb4madmaiko (i don't feel like reading all of your post, i read like the first sentence before i fell asleep)
the premise of the game was customization, sakurai made it so that you can have whatever rule set you want, so why keep it as default as possible?
IMO we should adjust the rules to make the game as exciting and competetive as possible (competetive is not mario party stagelist)
bottem line, the game is more exciting on neutral ( or fairer) stages
inb4madmaiko (i don't feel like reading all of your post, i read like the first sentence before i fell asleep)
T-block
B2B TST
why do you even say anything then? i could respond, but it would be copied from the post you didn't read. are you not gonna read that either?
do you just talk for the sake of talking?
do you just talk for the sake of talking?
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
looks like another "cp" to get gayed on again.
T-block
B2B TST
man you have terrible communication skills
I was definitely too tired
Because Snake got AIR CAMPED lol
Limeee
Smash Champion
because i felt like saying something. i probably wouldn't read that either
pretty much
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