Robotic Counterpicking (updated as of 4/06/09)

[Jamnt0ast]

Robotic Counterpicking
A guide to counterpicking with R.O.B.
By Jamnt0ast


R.O.B.’s ability to camp and fly gives him some extremely great counterpick stage. I’m going to list some of those stages and why you should counterpick them / who against.


Frigate Orpheon:

This is one of R.O.B.’s best stages for sure.

There are 2 points on the first part of stage which are great for ROB.

• Under the solitary platform. This leaves ROB’s 10:00 / 2:00 weakness completely covered. It also sets up for easy edgehogs with uair /usmash through the platform and dtilts / shorthop nairs for ledge pressure.

• The last point of solid ground that can not be passed through the bottom. You will want to camp here when your opponent is recovering low. You can get an easy fsmash or fair gimp if the opponent’s recovery is poor.


On the second part of the stage there are also 2 points in which to camp.

• Under the center platform is great. You can avoid most projectiles there by crouching, you have access to them from above, and the little valley can be abused to aim your laser and get gyro’s sitting near the ledge.

• The ledge on this part of the stage is your best friend. You attack from there, spam projectiles, and even use up B. The reason for this is the alternating side platforms. On these you can recharge your fuel to keep hold of your ledge.

Don't take Lucario, Dedede, or MK here.

You should counterpick this stage vs people with predictable / short recoveries or those who like to sweetspot the ledge. This includes but is not limited to:
Falco
Marth
Olimar (if he bans Rainbow Cruise)
Link
Mario/Luigi
Zelda


Rainbow Cruise:

This stage can be greatly used to ROB’s advantage through clever use of the multiple platforms and in some places ceilings.

Strategy:

• At the beginning part of the stage you can dtilt infinite against the wall and get low % nair kills from the low ceiling.

• When you reach the “Ladder of Platforms” you can get some quick damage with uair and WoP many characters off to the right of the stage due to lack of ledges to grab. (abuse on tether recovery)

• At the Swing under the falling blocks you can dsmash people into the ceiling in which they are plummeted into the pit unable to recover at obscenely low percentages

• The large horizontal space and low ceiling is great for projectile camping and quick kills off the top. There is also a place to dtilt infinite.

• Do not CP this stage vs Mr. Game and Watch, Kirby, or Meta Knight

Characters that you should take to this stage:
Olimar
Marth
Bowser
Pit
Diddy Kong
Sonic


Brinstar:

LEARN THIS STAGE

Brinstar is not a stage that you would immediately think is good counterpick for ROB, but once you get used to it, Brinstar can be one of your most valuable counterpicks.

Strategy:

• Drop your gyro on the energy tanks to create a bouncing damaging wall. It’s a great place to hide behind and can allow you to approach through it without punishment. Camping the ledge can also be great vs projectiled users because you can shoot your gyro and laser past the vines.



• You can fly under the stage and use fair and nair to rack up damage with little punishment.


• The acid can seem unpredictable to your opponent if they aren’t experienced with the stage, so when the acid starts to rise, and your opponent jumps, use that to your advantage by starting a fair chain or performing your 23% UAir.

• Usmash is extended under the bottom platforms due to the vines. This can lead to EASY EARLY KILLS.

Do not counterpick this stage vs Donkey Kong, Ike, or Mr. Game and Watch.

Characters that you should take to this stage:
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Lucario
Diddy Kong
Peach
Sonic



Luigi’s Mansion:

In the few places this is legal, it is one of your all time best counterpicks.

Strategy:

• Your laser goes through the pillars on this stage

• Performing a dsmash on the lower level will cause the opponent to bounce off the ceiling, and onto the floor, which can lead to a dtilt jab lock all the way across the stage.

• Large boundaries allow for gimp kills rather than killing off the sides and top, so you live forever.

• Camping and stalling is hella easy due to the large circular layout of the stage.

• Do NOT pick this stage vs Olimar, Donkey Kong, Lucario, and Meta Knight.

Characters you SHOULD take to this stage:
FALCO
Wolf
Fox
Mr. Game & Watch
Toon Link
Snake
Projectile based characters

Jungle Japes:

Japes is a great ROB stage in some situations, but you shouldnt take every character here. Your killing will be mainly off the side for this one, so don’t bother saving your nair as much, use it as a helpful damaging move when you have the chance.

Strategy:

• Camp the sides…. A lot, but NOT the ledges (you will get crocked). They are elevated, you can go under them….. what more could you ask for? Feel free to spam projectiles from there.

• If you get caught in the water, jump with the flow first, then against the flow or else you risk getting swept back in.

• Clap traps come every 10 seconds. They will appear at the right side of the stage when the timer hits a 7. Use this to your advantage and try to lure your opponent into the water or on a ledge.

• Do NOT take the following characters to this stage: Pit, Donkey Kong, Lucario, FALCO, Peach... in fact, BAN this stage vs Falco

You really only want to take Snake and Toon link here.

 

[Darth Waffles]

Nice stuff Jamn... We've been in need of something like this for awhile now.

 

[Mister Eric]

Glad to see this.
It's time to liven the R.O.B. boards back up!

 

[jjvirus]

I like it...two things I wanna correct/ask

1. You said Pit twice in Jungle japes list for people not to CP.

2. Should we really take Toon Link to Brinstar? I've seen Lobos like **** on that stage...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmyIF3oruJY (7:33 is where the Brinstar game starts) I've also seen him beat NinjaLink here...but NL was using Kirby so idk if it means anything

 

[Cubone]

This is great but why don't the forums start a whole stage discussion topic? I noticed quite a few of the other boards have.

 

[Jamnt0ast]

i didnt mean to put toon link for brinstar. haha. it would be better to CP luigis or even japes because he cant kill off the sides very well.

 

[Darth Waffles]

This is great but why don't the forums start a whole stage discussion topic? I noticed quite a few of the other boards have.

http://www.smashbrawl.com/showthread.php?t=187501
This is the general "counterpicking made easy" guide, but it would take up so much space with all of the combinations if every character's list were added together. 35+! is way too long to list in a single thread, so it's just easier to have a single one for a character

 

[GwJ]

I'm still not sure about Brinstar. It gives a lot of characters with strong attacks a huge advantage here.

 

[ZOM~B]

I really like Delfino Plaza with ROB... but it's a common counterpick so lots of people will have experience with it... Bad stage to fight Dedede on too.

 

[JCaesar]

We've had like 2 or 3 other stage threads but they all died. Hopefully this one will last a while.

btw, Brinstar is not that great against Diddy. The goop makes it hard to get rid of bananas, and even if he misses it'll just land right behind you and put you in a dangerous situation. I just feel like he can pressure you way too easily there (not to mention the acid and the close boundaries hurt you much more than they hurt Diddy). You really should be able to get by without resorting to something like this. Diddy is easy to CP. He gets destroyed on Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, Frigate, and Jungle Japes.

 

[Jamnt0ast]

i like fighting him on brinstar. perhaps we have different playstyles vs diddy

 

[Sudai]

He also gets destroyed on Luigi's if you're lucky and it's not banned. Living till 300%? Yesplease.

 

[Mr.E]

I don't think Falco on Japes is a big deal. You can't camp the side platforms against him but his spiking tricks don't work on ROB and the uneven terrain screws with his laser spam.

 

[Mister Eric]

I'm sure you could take a lot more characted to Japes.

 

[Sudai]

Mr E, the point isn't really his laser (which actually -aren't- hindered at all) or his spike tricks. It's the fact that he gets a free escape whenever he wants. Phantasm to one of the two ledges for free invincibility. That combined with the fact that he's very susceptible to dieing off the top and he likes to kill off the sides just means that there's even more advantages for him. There's -much- better CPs vs him and this is where most falcos will want to go.

Edit: Oh yeah, Jamn, add stuff for FD and Yoshi's (or I could if you want) because there's some character's I'd honestly prefer to take there over a lot of the counter picks. You have to remember, Luigi's is banned in 80% of tournaments and Japes is banned in 30% or so, so that leaves 1 good CP choice (I can't think of many characters who you can take to Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise and be good either way) and if the opponent is knowledgeable, it's gonna get banned.

 

[joenopride]

Great thread! I'm glad to see that I've been counterpicking the right stages all this time.

Would it be possible to do a stage ban thread as well, or have that included? I have a general idea (BF lol), but I'm not sure about some other stages that are a bit more matchup specific.

 

[Jamnt0ast]

you do yoshi's i'll do FD. and mr. e. you're freaking ********

 

[Jamnt0ast]

Great thread! I'm glad to see that I've been counterpicking the right stages all this time.

Would it be possible to do a stage ban thread as well, or have that included? I have a general idea (BF lol), but I'm not sure about some other stages that are a bit more matchup specific.

you generally shouldnt ban fd it can be a good counterpick as well

 

[Mr.E]

You should ban FD if it's a bad stage in the matchup (e.g. Diddy) as much as you should ban another stage against anyone else.

and mr. e. you're freaking ********

Hey man, there's no room in this here forum for pointless flaming. Don't be a douche.

I just don't feel the added annoyance of what Falco can do with his Phantasm on JJ (abusing the ledges and whatnot) is worse than the Blaster spam he can do against ROB on most any other stage. Since none of his spiking tricks there work on ROB, that's basically what a CP there boils down to: it becomes even harder than it already is to punish the Phantasm, but in exchange he can't laser camp very well due to uneven terrain. If my opinion doesn't resonate with most other ROB players, that's fine, but I'm not particularly uncomfortable fighting him there and I'm the one playing my matches, so what do you (or Sudai) care? There's no need to flame.

Granted, there's only one other stage to really ban against Falco anyway, and that's FD. Just about everywhere else sucks equally for both characters (e.g. Norfair) or tips the match in ROB's favor. *shrug* Pointless argument.

 

[joenopride]

you generally shouldnt ban fd it can be a good counterpick as well

Uh.. am I missing something? In my original post I was talking about Battlefield.

 

[Sudai]

Mr. E's right on the flaming point. Watch your double posting too, please.

I'm not gonna get into the discussion on the ROB boards (we had our quibble in the XatChat), but everyone should know, if someone decides to start arguing it, I will be handing out infractions for any and all flames that come from anyone. This is everyone's warning for this thread.

 

[Mr.E]

Opposite side of the same coin, joe. BF is an obvious ban against Marth or G&W as much as FD is the obvious CP against Ike, but usually you'll want to put a little more thought into it. Keep in mind that, though ROB can get ***** from below due to the platforms, most characters share that weakness and ROB has his fair share of useful platform tricks as well and it's actually a good CP against aerial-heavy characters like Wario.

BF is a good "general" ban if you can't think of anything else to ban. Furthermore, many players are apt to stick to neutral stages and are uncomfortable on CP stages in general, making any ban on a neutral stage advantageous against those type of players.

 

[stingers]

Question:

Why do people consider Norfair a bad stage for ROB? I never see it mentioned on any CP lists, but it's always my first CP against Diddy and DDD.

It ****s with your gyro or something? Once you learn to play that stage you won't ever get your gyro stuck. I hardly ever shoot my gyro unless its fully charged. Honestly the stage limits your gyro games more then the lava does, and all you need to do is adjust your playstyle to be less reliant on the gyro. I guess that might be a problem for someone like Ninjalink, but it really doesn't hurt ROB as much as you might think due to all of the other advantages you get from the stage.

Besides the gyro thing, what does ROB have problems with there? As long as you can manipulate your opponent you can get a LOT of gimps there. Like really, a Bair on a top left or top right platform with proper edgeguarding will lead to many gimps. Proper edgeguarding being the kind that forces them to recover low (to that center platform).

Also the platforms will almost always nearly help you more then your opponent (unless you're playing a smart Link or Oli or something, I wouldn't recommend you take them here anyway for obvious reasons) and any ROB main should know how to take advantage of platforms to their fullest. 20% Uair, easy kills with Usmash, and a great Ground -> Air game on this stage make it something ROB mains should be happy about.

ROB has no trouble with the lava due to his versatile recovery. I'd imagine someone like Falco would have a lot less trouble (faster, better jumping height + super fast horizontal moves like the phantasm) but ROB isn't bad at all. The lava has always helped me a lot more then my opponent, anyway. Bair is a godsend here, you can really surprise your opponents with it because the first thing on their mind seems to be getting away from the lava, not you. Bair in the face, into the lava = too good.

Oh and I havent even talked about the laser yet. Huge stage = more room for camping = more lasers. The way the stage is angled makes it really easy to hit from just about anywhere too.

This is a stage ROB mains are really overlooking. Coupled with Frigate and Japes, there is no reason a ROB should have trouble CPing a character.

 

[GwJ]

Falco's blaster isn't really hindered on JJ. It may be in a minute way, but it really isn't that bad. SH blasters still skim over the platform, so unless you're in the air or you dodged, you're in his range.

The reason Norfair is a bad ROB stage is because of the platforms. ROB simply can't gimp well here. There's too many places to grab the ledge on, that and lava. If his gyro is stuck in the lava, you're out 30 seconds or so from your gyro.

 

[stingers]

I've gotten gimps on that stage...a lot...it's a matter of using the right move. You can't spam Nair and gimp their recovery, you have to get them in the right place and then use the right move (I find bair works) to send them horizontally. And unless you're playing a Pit or something, they really won't get back.

It's really not that difficult, try playing on Norfair for a bit.

Also, if you get your gyro stuck you don't know what your doing. Really. 1. You shouldn't be using weak gyros on Norfair (that's just a part of the stage you'll get used to, sure it hinders ROBs projectile game a bit but honestly, it's nothing major). 2. You shouldn't be predictable enough with your projectiles that your opponent can catch them. Unless you're playing Hugs or someone with godly reflexes. Then...tough luck

 

[Mr.E]

Norfair just isn't a good ROB stage in general. Losing the Gyro to lava for extended periods of time isn't the real problem, it does still have a hitbox and lends itself to unique trap setups. But the multiple ledges make edgeguarding most character nigh impossible, nullifying ROB's biggest strength, and the vertical gameplay really hurts ROB if he's the one stuck on top. That doesn't mean it isn't a good CP against select characters who hate playing the matchup there even more, it's just a place ROB doesn't want to fight most characters.

Falco's blaster isn't really hindered on JJ. It may be in a minute way, but it really isn't that bad. SH blasters still skim over the platform, so unless you're in the air or you dodged, you're in his range.

I was assuming ROB is the one in the middle, in which case any lasers shot will simply fly over your head and make it very difficult for Falco to approach. Falco can still camp the central platform as well as anyone, but at least you can SH over the lasers or abuse ledge invincibility. Contrast this to FD, where he can SHDL to his heart's content and, though he won't grab a ledge at the end of it, can still attempt to Phantasm back and forth through you constantly with such a large space. Unless you hit him in the middle of the attack, Phantasm is largely unpunishable whether or not he has ledge invincibility at the end of it anyway. :/ (Not as recovery, where it's highly punishable, but as a keep-away move.)

Personally, I'd just rather do the fight on JJ, although it doesn't matter much since these two stages are the only ones that stand out as ban-worthy against Falco anyway. If most of you would prefer to fight on FD instead, that's your prerogative, I'm just trying to justify that JJ doesn't make it some super-hopeless matchup in his favor. Falco's a good camper in general and he can camp and/or run away from ROB on most any large stage if he gets a lead but JJ doesn't really play to that strength any more than FD does.

 

[stingers]

I've really never had a trouble edgeguarding, gimping, or killing on Norfair.

Pressure to the top left/top right with Fair, Uair, and ftilt (trust me it works)
Hit them with a bair going towards the blast zones (there should be very minimal vertical movement, DI should not bring them up enough to be very helpful)
Edgeguard.

It's EASY.

 

[Mr.E]

If your opponent gets edgeguarded on Norfair, then they're DOING IT WRONG. It's pretty easy to bait people like that on most stages but it just doesn't work very well when they can just drop past you and there's still two ledges waiting to be grabbed. And ROB still gets owned from below in general, which is encouraged by the stage layout.

 

[stingers]

I've never had trouble spacing the bair to hit someone dropping through the platform. Of course they could just...jump out of the way, or run to the ledge, but there's nothing foolproof in Brawl anyway.

That doesn't stop it from being a reliable, unpunishable gimp attempt.

Yeah ROB does have a weak spot from below, that's a problem that seems like it could come up but honestly not many people I've taken to Norfair have tried to capitalize on that. That's something to keep in mind though, but like with the gyro, playing smart and safe on this stage will be what sets apart the new ROBs and the Veteran ROBs.

 

[Cubone]

http://www.smashbrawl.com/showthread.php?t=187501
This is the general "counterpicking made easy" guide, but it would take up so much space with all of the combinations if every character's list were added together. 35+! is way too long to list in a single thread, so it's just easier to have a single one for a character

Two totally different ideas.

I'm thinking like the G&W boards do, they stickied a stage discussion topic and inside just put the link to the posts about each stage and a short summary of it. Its mostly for the board to share tips on the stage and we also went to include what characters do poorly on the stage and which ones not to take there.

It helps with counterpicking but its based more on what the stage does to help or hurt the character.

Ex. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201905

 

[JCaesar]

Maybe it would help to go through one stage at a time instead of this cluster**** of ideas...

Mr. E is right, against Falco I would ban FD in a heartbeat over JJ. FD is much more annoying against Falco.

Stingers, how could it possibly be easier to gimp on a stage with randomly rising/interfering lava and 3 ledges, than a neutral stage with a single ledge to guard and no random lifesavers? Your argument doesn't make any sense. But I do agree that Norfair is a great CP against Diddy and DDD, because they both do terrible there, but beyond that I wouldn't touch that stage. In fact I would ban it in several matchups.

 

[stingers]

I never said it was easier to gimp there then any other stage XD. I normally get my kills with F/USmashes on Norfair. I'm just saying it's possible, because many ROBs seem to think it's really really hard or something.

 

[GwJ]

It's possible, just not recommended. It's possible to get kills on bad ROB stages, but that doesn't mean we're choosing it. Stages aren't people, they won't get offended if we don't use them.

 

[JCaesar]

It's harder to gimp on Norfair than on 80% of the other stages available, so, apart from fighting a character who naturally does really poorly there, why would I ever want to go there? There are multiple better CPs for every character I can think of other than Diddy and DDD.

 

[Deadweight]

I don't think Falco on Japes is a big deal. You can't camp the side platforms against him but his spiking tricks don't work on ROB and the uneven terrain screws with his laser spam.

^ This is wrong
Japes is made for Falco
The platforms are spread out just enough to phantasm across. Spike into water is deadly. I've seen falcos camp here all day long.
Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Phantasm
Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser
Phantasm
Its not a fun fight

Edit:
It didnt seem like he was arguing FD vs JJ it seemed like he was saying Falco wasnt amazing on japes. Id perfer banning Japes tbh, I can gimp easier on fd. And can abuse Falco's bad Up B more... Both stages are bad vs Falco really its your prefrence i guess :D

 

[stingers]

It's harder to gimp on Norfair than on 80% of the other stages available, so, apart from fighting a character who naturally does really poorly there, why would I ever want to go there? There are multiple better CPs for every character I can think of other than Diddy and DDD.

By focusing on the one point of the stage that harms ROB (harder to get gimps), you're ignoring many of the positives for ROB that I've already outlined in earlier posts.

By the way, who would you ban this against? Off the top of my head I can only really think of Zero Suit, Olimar, and Link. Olimar and Zero Suit are both pretty rare characters in tournament play too, but of course it's great to know what stages not to use against them.

My point being there that Norfair is rarely a stage you should choose to avoid. Of course there are prefered CPs against certain characters (I mean you should take a Snake to Japes, or a Falco to Frigate) but what happens when they ban those stages? You should always have a semi-reliable CP in store for backup. Against characters that you won't be gimping much anyway (like Pikachu, Kirby, or Meta Knight) why not go somewhere like Norfair?

 

[Jamnt0ast]

1st, why are we arguing about norfair?
2nd, Japes and FD are good for falco, but you can gimp him on FD
3rd, sorry for flaming mr. e, it just seemed as though i were arguing with a brick wall.
4th, if you have a quarrel with something posted on the reason this thread was made, make a new version of it and out class mine. >_>

 

[Mr.E]

We're arguing about Norfair because it's on-topic? *shrug* I'm not really sure where this topic is going anyway, if anywhere, but don't kill the discussion going on. (I think it more prudent to discuss CPs on a per-character basis, such as the weekly character discussions that Sudai is slacking a bit on , more than just discussing a stage of its own accord and then suggesting which characters to possibly take there.) What else do you want us to talk about?

Japes is made for Falco
The platforms are spread out just enough to phantasm across. Spike into water is deadly. I've seen falcos camp here all day long.
...
Edit:
It didnt seem like he was arguing FD vs JJ it seemed like he was saying Falco wasnt amazing on japes. Id perfer banning Japes tbh, I can gimp easier on fd. And can abuse Falco's bad Up B more... Both stages are bad vs Falco really its your prefrence i guess :D

Japes is a fantastic stage for Falco in general, I just don't think it's all that special against ROB. It's like ROB picking FD against Dedede -- you get more room to camp him but give him more space to CG if he does grab you.

Likewise, Falco gets a more protected Phantasm... but loses some ability to blaster spam. His DThrow tricks gain nothing, as they don't work on ROB in the first place FYI. High ceiling makes it tougher for ROB to kill with NAir but does the same for Falco's USmash. ROB can only gimp on the left side of the stage, fair enough. It changes the matchup in ways other stages won't but it's nothing that screams "omg BAN IT NOW !!" to me, it's just different.

 

[JCaesar]

By focusing on the one point of the stage that harms ROB (harder to get gimps), you're ignoring many of the positives for ROB that I've already outlined in earlier posts.

By the way, who would you ban this against? Off the top of my head I can only really think of Zero Suit, Olimar, and Link. Olimar and Zero Suit are both pretty rare characters in tournament play too, but of course it's great to know what stages not to use against them.

My point being there that Norfair is rarely a stage you should choose to avoid. Of course there are prefered CPs against certain characters (I mean you should take a Snake to Japes, or a Falco to Frigate) but what happens when they ban those stages? You should always have a semi-reliable CP in store for backup. Against characters that you won't be gimping much anyway (like Pikachu, Kirby, or Meta Knight) why not go somewhere like Norfair?

I just don't see what advantages this stage gives ROB. ROB camps best horizontally, and this stage really limits that. You have to be really careful with the gyro or you could lose it for long periods of time, and you basically can't use it at all on the bottom platform. Most of the things you said you like about this stage (such as getting kills with bair off the stage) apply to basically every stage.

I can't think of any characters where this stage would be a 2nd choice either if they ban your 1st choice. There's just always a much better option.

I'm not saying this is the stage to ban in most cases, it certainly isn't. Generally you want to ban whatever stage your opponent likes most, which is usually not Norfair. I'm just saying that, if you made a general tier list of how good all the legal stages are for ROB, this stage would easily be bottom tier.

 

[jjvirus]

Of course there are prefered CPs against certain characters (I mean you should take a Snake to Japes, or a Falco to Frigate) but what happens when they ban those stages? You should always have a semi-reliable CP in store for backup.

1. Frigate

If its banned go to either


2. Rainbow/Japes