ROB Match-up Ratios(New Ratios!)

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i never found ddd to be that bad. its a disadvantage b/c of the cg but its really not that bad for rob imo.

idk what my tourney results were but they would be out of date since it was over half a year ago i last went only rob in a tourney and right now i am much better then i use to be. I remember i lost to bum's dk but only barely but its bum and now i know the dk MU i think its slightly in favor for rob.

At the last tourney i went to (three or so weeks ago) i played as rob in some friendlies and i beat a wolf (he did not seem that good) i beat a mario he was pretty solid, i should of beaten a marth but did something dumb and got staged spiked (he is a known as a pretty good marth), i beat a ic's/mk but once again i am better now with rob since i have only been playing him since the tourney b/c i relized he was my best character.

Anyway i think rob is a legit character and does not have any un-winnable MU just some tough ones

 

[Sinz]

D3 is a ******** match up. If D3 and Mk didn't exist I would play ROB. Seriously.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

whats to bad about d3? it can't be his cg since he has that on a good deal of the cast and u just have to get use to it. it can't be him spam since its not that hard to deal with. His weight is kinda annoying but still not that big of deal. His b-air is kinda annoying but u can get around it. so i am asking what is it about d3 that makes u think its such a bad MU? (i know i did not name everything d3 has but its late and i am going to bed)

 

[Syde7]

whats to bad about d3? it can't be his cg since he has that on a good deal of the cast and u just have to get use to it. it can't be him spam since its not that hard to deal with. His weight is kinda annoying but still not that big of deal. His b-air is kinda annoying but u can get around it. so i am asking what is it about d3 that makes u think its such a bad MU? (i know i did not name everything d3 has but its late and i am going to bed)

What you've already mentioned PLUS:

1) ROB being weak from below, and DDD's U-air being too good against him.
2) ROB losing vertically to DDD's D-air if he gets his out quicker/you mess up a smidge & DDD's U-air (previously mentioned)
3) Good edgeguarding (ROB & DDD are at that trade-off area, where ROB has the + while edgeguarding, and DDD has the + when he is edgeguarding)
4) U-tilt killing at silly percentages, especially on stages w/ low ceilings (See: Halberd. Not necc a superb DDD cp, but not an awful stage for him in some odd event Delphino/Siege are banned/not chosen)
5) Comparable range to ROB; Grab/D- & F-tilt
6) Multiple jumps to throw you off your camping game if you are trying to be content and just sit in one spot


The "solution" is to camp DDD and keep your space with tilts as he approaches. However, this takes a fair amount of time and if the DDD can PS your projectiles consistently, your efficiency has been cut down tremendously. Couple that with the fact DDD can erase the damage you've spent gaining through camping with one CG.

Along with camping, ROB wins MUs by efficient edgeguarding and survivability/prevention of being edgeguarded. While ROB has the + when guarding DDD, DDD's edgeguarding game can get him a stock back if you slip up. DDD kills at stupid percents and in addition as at least one (maybe two, if that whole inhale tricksy is legit) kill set-ups.

tl;dr: if ROB gets substantially behind in the percentages (say... 25-30%; which isn't that hard with the CG, U-air, low percent U-tilt trixies, a little camping of his own, and a bit of damage-racking edgeguarding) it is INCREDIBLY hard to catch up/even things out/get ahead due to DDD the fact that ROB then needs to approach, setting himself up for more CGs-->more damage-->KO options/edgeguard opportunity. Essentially, a conglomeration of tiny "tid-bits of advantage" that add up in the long run and make the practice of PLAYING the MU difficult.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i would say what you mentioned is true for d3 for almost the whole cast and that rob has it better then much of the cast against him. and about d3's up-tilt when u r in death % u know it is coming so u can avoided it pretty easily imo. it can be a annoying MU but i just get the point of saying if D# did not exist rob would be legit he is not that bad for rob.

New Topic: so rob's row on the MU chart in tactical is almost completely filled in the only MU not filled in are the pt's pokemon. I think we should just come up with ratio's for them pretty fast so we can have a completely filled in row. If no one else wants to do this then whatever it is not a big deal since we already have a pt ratio just throwing this out there.

Anyway idk if these re accurate since i don't play any good pt's but here are my guesses.

Squirt: 55-45 rob or 60-40 rob: he is simailar to wario but not as good and his recovery is lacking and can be gimped. the worst thing about him is his speed but rob has the advantage in this one.

Ivy: 70:30 rob (might be better then this: he is like a horrible olimar. His range is not good enough his speed is not very good he hets gimped so badly its kinda sad. I don't se ivy giving rob any trouble at all:

charzard: 60;40 rob: i think he might be easy to just spam, i hear he is bad off the stage when recovering so rob can cause him pain, his fair gimping won't work on rob, idk charzard that well but it seems rob has the advantage to me.

Anyway like i said idk the MU's that well so if anyone feels like it they can say what they think the ratios are and then we can have a complete row.

 

[Mr.E]

Dedede's UAir, lol... Dedede couldn't chase a rock. :/ Dedede is nothing but CG and BAir but I'm not really up to arguing this whole thing.

 

[TheMike]

D3 is a ******** match up. If D3 and Mk didn't exist I would play ROB. Seriously.

Do you really care that much about good Match-ups/Tier List?

Squirt: 55-45 rob or 60-40 rob: he is simailar to wario but not as good and his recovery is lacking and can be gimped. the worst thing about him is his speed but rob has the advantage in this one.

Ivy: 70:30 rob (might be better then this: he is like a horrible olimar. His range is not good enough his speed is not very good he hets gimped so badly its kinda sad. I don't se ivy giving rob any trouble at all:

charzard: 60;40 rob: i think he might be easy to just spam, i hear he is bad off the stage when recovering so rob can cause him pain, his fair gimping won't work on rob, idk charzard that well but it seems rob has the advantage to me.

Squirtle: He's really like Wario with a worst recovery. But lol, as Wario, he can combo with his aerials and make a very good spacing with them, giving us a hard time for punishes. Plus he juggles us so easy... we still have the advantage(small). We can gimp well. We need to live off-stage on this MU because on stage Squritle gets really annoying. 55-45 us.

Ivy: Yeah. Gimps. However, he has some options, such as Nair/Utilt/Bair, but he really sucks and we can choose, camp or gimp. The second one is much better IMO. 65/70-35/30

Charizard: We just need to camp. He's just as good as us when edge guarding. Neutral B, Aerials, Pivot Grab(or normal Grabs predicting Air Dodges) and maybe Rock Smash, but he's a lot worst than us when being edge guarded. Both are big targets, so this isn't a bad disadvantage. 55/60-45/40.




http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=251546&page=2 - Post #30

Like Mr. E, I'll not argue much about the DDD match-up because all i need to say was said on that thread above. But unlike him, I think DDD isn't only CGs and Bairs...

 

[Tin Man]

I care about good match-ups, if the match-up isn't at least 50-50, that bothers me, its why I counter pick, I would like to have every possible advantage, and try to avoid every possible disadvantage to make winning easier.

 

[TheMike]

Yeah, that's obviously. But no maining a char/not playing with him just because of two specific Match-ups is something weird.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

well if no one else has any suggestions for the 3 pokemon then theMike do mind adding the ratio's to your post on the MU chart thread. squritle:55-45 rob, ivy: 70-30 rob, charzard: 60-40 rob.

Also i don't think a 60-40 is a bad MU at all that one is clearly winnable. Anything worst then that is were the MU gets tough if u ask me. Still i don't think rob has any that can't be won.

Also i was looking at the mk vs rob on the MU chart and the mk boards have it as a 60-40 MK. lol i think ROB can win the fight but right now at best i would put it as 65-35 b/c of what i have been able to do and b/c of what i think rob can do. the mk boards having the MU harder for them then we have it is a joke since at this moment there is no reason for them to think its harder then 70-30 for MK (hopefully soon we the robs will make it so the MU is clearly better then 70-30). This makes me think the mk boards lie about there MU so people don't think he is bannable (at least thats the impression i get)

 

[TheMike]

What's strange for me is that in Melee, a +1 advantage for a MU isn't much. But if we look attentive, +1 = 60:40 in Brawl...

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^ yea know thats why 60-40 MU never bothered me. I don't get people who look at a 60-40 and think its a clear easy advantage it really means very little imo

Rob vs MK being a 60-40 now is not true and it was even less true when they discussed that MU.

Edit: i was just looking at the MU ratio's again and i noticed that the 3 pokemon were in there idk how i missed them before my bad. Anyway i really like the changes from the old ratios i feel the new ones are more accurate.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

*sigh*
Brawl ratios are used differently then Melee ratios

Brawl ratios are used on the basis of Praxis' MU Ratio Guide:

50:50
Very even matchup. Definition should be fairly obvious.

55:45
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools,
or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup.
However, the other character does have responses him,
and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent
or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

65:35
One character has options that shut down the other's options.
Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable,
but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.

70:30
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down
the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended -
or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.

Anything past 70:30
Pretty much unwinnable matchups like Dedede vs Donkey Kong.

 

[TheMike]

Everybody knows this... I just said that comparing to Melee.

 

[6Mizu]

Everybody knows this... I just said that comparing to Melee.

TheMIKE if your taking about the post directly above yours......if so it's very true.
random:

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What's so random?

 

[6Mizu]

My dizzy face of course.

 

[Nefarious B]

What have you guys been smoking, how can anyone say ROB vs ZSS is even? Seriously, if you're gonna have a matchup thread like this and throw out things like that... good luck getting anyone to respect what you say.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

What have you guys been smoking, how can anyone say ROB vs ZSS is even? Seriously, if you're gonna have a matchup thread like this and throw out things like that... good luck getting anyone to respect what you say.

ROB 40-60 Zamus thats what was decided on so idk what u r smoking or maybe u just need you eyes checked b/c 60-40 is not even

 

[phi1ny3]

He's saying that there are actually people who've posted numbers (not the general consensus) that said it is even (between 50:50 to 45:55), which is blasphemy.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

still its not like that those were the chosen ratios for the MU. Besides what he posted did not seem directed at any person but instead the whole ROB board so i was just pointing out that the rob boards don't think the MU is even and that there is no point getting upset over ratio's that were not chosen. (kinda tired today so if this does not makes sense tell me)

 

[mountain_tiger]

They're right. Calling it even is laughable. Unlike some other matchups involving infinites, ROB is still at a disadvantage even if it doesnt' exist. If that footstool infinite thing didn't exist, it's still be 40:60 ZSS' favour (some have even argued 35:65). The infinite is simply the final straw.

Oh, and for the record, I think that Peach is 55:45 her favour and Zelda is even.

 

[TheMike]

They're right. Calling it even is laughable. Unlike some other matchups involving infinites, ROB is still at a disadvantage even if it doesnt' exist. If that footstool infinite thing didn't exist, it's still be 40:60 ZSS' favour (some have even argued 35:65). The infinite is simply the final straw.

Oh, and for the record, I think that Peach is 55:45 her favour and Zelda is even.

It's not even the final straw. Footstool infinites are just for fun, they're ridiculous were we're in a serious match.

Zamus has the advantage, and it's not even, but she's not that good against ROB so as to put the MU as a strong advantage for her, who isn't even a counter. 60-40 means advantage, not an even MU, like NAGACE said...

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

as someone who use to main zelda and now mains rob i would say that 55-45 rob is right.

idk much about the peach MU

 

[6Mizu]

I thihk your right about Zelda to ROB Mu ratio NAGACE

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I have to disagree with your MU with Lucas, ROB has much better tools than Lucas which would regularly make it 55:45, but ROB can easily outcamp Lucas by just running away and spacing his PK Fire at the max distance and punish with a laser. ROB also has a Gyro which can easily get him a grab. ROB probably has some silly grab release abuse against Lucas (possibly d-tilt to trip, I'm not sure). Lucas also has an incredibly tough time approaching a ROB because he Lucas even remotely spaces his down air (approach?) wrong he'll easily get f-tilted, if he tries to apprach with n-air, you can d-smash OoS but jab will clash with it. But the thing is, n-air has no priority so as long as you space your n-air any whatsoever, it will beat Lucas n-air. Lucas dash attack is laughable along with his dash-grab, Lucas mains will run behind you can pivot grab before they ever try to dash grab you. 60-40 ROB's favor.

 

[6Mizu]

I have to disagree with your MU with Lucas, ROB has much better tools than Lucas which would regularly make it 55:45, but ROB can easily outcamp Lucas by just running away and spacing his PK Fire at the max distance and punish with a laser. ROB also has a Gyro which can easily get him a grab. ROB probably has some silly grab release abuse against Lucas (possibly d-tilt to trip, I'm not sure). Lucas also has an incredibly tough time approaching a ROB because he Lucas even remotely spaces his down air (approach?) wrong he'll easily get f-tilted, if he tries to apprach with n-air, you can d-smash OoS but jab will clash with it. But the thing is, n-air has no priority so as long as you space your n-air any whatsoever, it will beat Lucas n-air. Lucas dash attack is laughable along with his dash-grab, Lucas mains will run behind you can pivot grab before they ever try to dash grab you. 60-40 ROB's favor.

I would trust him if I were you (by which I mean everyone)...He has to deal w/ this MU on a weekly basis.
We fight each other every weekend.
Or you make it (55:45 - 60:40) ROB's fav.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

We're talking about vBrawl here Mizu, there's absolutely no way that it can be 55-45 for Lucas because Lucas PK Fire doesn't even hurt that much when you get hit. That's probably the MU in BBrawl you're thinking of. (BTW I think that your d-tilt and d-smash are gaurenteed after grab release, if you trip with d-tilt then you probably get another grab)

 

[6Mizu]

No i'm not thinking about Bbrawl.
I'm thinking like my other ROB buddies.
When they Lucas they think difficult to camp...sort of like Kirby after he has ROb's laser.
Because to actually camp Lucas.... lets just say it takes time to learn.
So that's why.

 

[Chuee]

We're talking about vBrawl here Mizu, there's absolutely no way that it can be 55-45 for Lucas because Lucas PK Fire doesn't even hurt that much when you get hit. That's probably the MU in BBrawl you're thinking of. (BTW I think that your d-tilt and d-smash are gaurenteed after grab release, if you trip with d-tilt then you probably get another grab)

lol neither are guarenteed out of grab release. If my CPU lucas can break away far enough then so can we.
Don't worry about Dsmash. It's fairly easy to SDI out of.

 

[6Mizu]

He know about ROb's D-smash.
Didn't you see what i said about him fighting this MU on a weekly basis.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lol, I forgot about grab release range, and was only thinking of frames. F-tilt might be gaurenteed. (He doesn't do gay stuff like that to me though because Mizu knows that it's stupid to do that stuff in friendlies)

BTW, to camp Lucas, just learn the range of his PK Fire and get out of it and shoot your laser. Obviously, keep pressure with a Gyro...

 

[6Mizu]

WTF! rPSI are you saying i'm too nice?

no ******, that's not the only things you need to do to camp lucas.....even tough those maybe some of the key components.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'm saying that you think it's stupid to do stuff silly stuff in friendlies when you could be experimenting

 

[6Mizu]

Yea....that's true about me.

 

[Teh Future]

ROB 10-90 MK
ROB 50-50 Snake
ROB 30-70 Wario
ROB 30-70 Falco
ROB 20-80 Diddy
ROB 30-70 DDD
ROB 40-60 Marth
ROB 30-70 G&W
ROB 40-60 Pikachu
ROB 10-90 Olimar
ROB 20-80 IC
ROB 40-60 Kirby
ROB 30-70 Lucario
ROB 1-99 Zamus
ROB 20-80 TL
ROB 40-60 Pit
ROB 30-70 DK
ROB 30-70 Peach
ROB 40-60 Luigi
ROB 30-70 Fox
ROB 40-60 Wolf
ROB 40-60 Sonic
ROB 20-80 Sheik
ROB 30-70 Bowser
ROB 40-60 Zelda
ROB 20-80 PT
ROB 10-90 Squirtle
ROB 50-50 Ivysaur
ROB 20-80 Charizard
ROB 30-70 Ike
ROB 40-60 Lucas
ROB 30-70 Mario
ROB 30-70 Ness
ROB 40-60 Yoshi
ROB 30-70 Samus
ROB 30-70 Jigglypuff
ROB 35-65 Falcon
ROB 70-30 Link
ROB 60-40 Ganondorf

ROB is SooooOOOOOooOOoooOooooOOoOOooooo bad

 

[Nefarious B]

He's saying that there are actually people who've posted numbers (not the general consensus) that said it is even (between 50:50 to 45:55), which is blasphemy.

This, pretty much. I still think you guys are cracked out though for saying it's anything better than 35:65 for you. Think about it a bit and you'll realize that ZSS exploits all of ROB's vulnerabilities better than any other character besides MK, and then throw an infinite on top of that starting from a dsmash that rivals the range of your ftilt. It shouldn't be hard to see why it's a bad matchup for you.

 

[Browny]

Is there any videos, or examples, of this infinite affecting a tournament match?

I dont doubt it, it just seems a little overhyped thats all (I'm thinking its not exactly the easiest infinite to pull off)

 

[TheMike]

Is there any videos, or examples, of this infinite affecting a tournament match?

I dont doubt it, it just seems a little overhyped thats all (I'm thinking its not exactly the easiest infinite to pull off)

No. Especially because most of the ROB players prefers the air.



And everybody knows that Zamus isn't a good MU for us; not even, as everybody said, but the infinite isn't that much on that MU IMO. Zamus is better on other aspects and as I said, everybody knows. :]

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Hey guys, I'm excited! Lucas boards are starting their discussion of ROB. Here's the for you guys. You're input is appreciated. (Stares at Mizu)