Road to WHOBO! (updated on 4-19-2013)

[Nike.]

Wtf, it's April already? Guess I should make a thread soon?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yes Nike please.

 

[Teshie U]

n
megabus tickets are now on sale thru september 3rd

purchase at your own risk

 

[Bomber7]

Texassssssssss! We confirmed the date for the next Smashcon convention. It will be for June 29th-30th. We are going to include many new events for you guys like card tournaments and a few other games. The official schedule is being sorted out right now but what we are looking at is to have Smash a couple of fighters on the first day (I'm looking to have it large enough to do doubles and pools Saturday), then Sunday is the rest of our fighters and card tournaments (and hopefully the main bracket for smash). Please mark your calendars for this. I want to see you guys again. Especially everyone I met at Sync's place for HOBO 39. It's going to be so hype!

 

[LOE1]

so im travelin to texas for a lil vacation in the summer, and plan on going to revolution 13 i believe it is. gonna have a fun time

 

[Tesh]

Please change the thread title. Leading off with "lone star circuit cancelled" will just put people off.

Just put "Lone Star Circuit: The Road to WHOBO 5" "LSC2013: The Road to WHOBO" so people know that we haven't cancelled anything, just restructured and rebranded. You'd be surprised by how lightly people can skim something and not grasp whats really going on.

Also ban MK. Its definitely good we moved out of the way of SKTAR in August, but I don't see the appeal of another MK legal WHOBO. I can't think of a single hype moment I enjoyed at WHOBO 3 that involved MK. Even with -40 entrants, WHOBO 4 was waaaay more fun. 2013 might be the year the sun sets on Brawl and if we don't do one last MK banned national, who will? For that matter, SKTAR and Apex will have a much more appealing MK legal event with people coming in from all over the world to swish swords and flap their wings. If I only had 300 dollars to go to 1 national, why would I pick MK legal WHOBO over MK legal SKTAR/Apex.

 

[Airbrush_King]

Please change the thread title. Leading off with "lone star circuit cancelled" will just put people off.

Just put "Lone Star Circuit: The Road to WHOBO 5" "LSC2013: The Road to WHOBO" so people know that we haven't cancelled anything, just restructured and rebranded. You'd be surprised by how lightly people can skim something and not grasp whats really going on.

Also ban MK. Its definitely good we moved out of the way of SKTAR in August, but I don't see the appeal of another MK legal WHOBO. I can't think of a single hype moment I enjoyed at WHOBO 3 that involved MK. Even with -40 entrants, WHOBO 4 was waaaay more fun. 2013 might be the year the sun sets on Brawl and if we don't do one last MK banned national, who will? For that matter, SKTAR and Apex will have a much more appealing MK legal event with people coming in from all over the world to swish swords and flap their wings. If I only had 300 dollars to go to 1 national, why would I pick MK legal WHOBO over MK legal SKTAR/Apex.

I agree with this that the thread title should be changed to LSC2013: The Road to WHOBO 5. Good point tesh! Also if xyro does low tier events for whobo doesnt that count as him being banned cause you cant pick him?

 

[Tesh]

Low Tier is ... It used to be fun to watch because Sonic, Ike, Yoshi, Ness, Luigi were all pretty fun to watch sometimes, but the rest of whats left is kind of boring. It can be pretty awful watching 2 horrible characters clumsily limp around going for abysmal strings and setups so they can just abuse each other's pathetic recoveries for the most part. Maybe thats a bit harsh, its not completely boring, but it doesn't make up for the main event being...MK.

I'm even willing to see GF turn into something like ICs vs Olimar if it means the rest of the bracket can be like...Ryo vs Atomsk or Mc Pee Pants vs Trela.

If anyone else feels the way I do, you should speak up before its too late.

 

[Xyro77]

I wont change it to LSC anything. The circuit is done for. Ill put it as Road to WHOBO though.



As for low tier, its not leaving. What i have seen in normal 1vs1 has been seen for 5 years now. THAT is boring. Plus, results are super rare to change. That is why i do low tier and mid tier events. Its not about entertainment value, its about low tier/mid tier chars (who would normally die in regular 1vs1) winning money/feeling like they can actually do well in an event.

 

[Tesh]

Its the SAME THING and you've been calling it LSC for the past half a year. You are just going to confuse people, but I won't argue on that one anymore.

Lets talk about banning MK.

 

[Xyro77]

Its the SAME THING and you've been calling it LSC for the past half a year. You are just going to confuse people, but I won't argue on that one anymore.

Its not the same thing. Dallas bailed. And i dont think Nike is gonna host NikeFest 5 after i talked with espy a few weeks back. The LSC (major cities of texas banding together to make a circuit) is done.

Lets talk about banning MK.

Texas smash sucks really bad right now. The last thing i wanna do is tell all tx MKs (or people who pocket mk) that they cant use their main weapon at WHOBO....that cuts down attendance. 2ndly, part of reviving a scene is getting as much different talent together in one place as possible. Telling the USA's MK mains that they cant enter WHOBO because they main MK only counters "reviving the scene".

If texas was a hype as it was 2-3 years ago, i could handle losing the MK mains due to a ban. its just not worth it this time around. thats why at whobo ill offer mid and low tier events for those who dont wanna deal with MK.

 

[Tesh]

Someone is gonna be upset about MKs legality one way or the other. USAs MKs are probably just going to go to SKTAR and Apex. The MK legal scene doesn't need revival anyway. Quite frankly, who gives a **** if USAs MK mains show up. I was USA's everything else to want to come and banning MK might attract a more diverse pool of talent.

Whobo 4 was during a time when the scene was dead too. Remember how you cancelled the 5th HOBO leading up to it because attendance was getting so low, despite MK being legal? You just hosted a HOBO bigger than any of the HOBOs leading up to Whobo 4 (twice the size of some of them).

People from across the country might be more interested in an MK banned event, especially when the strongest MK legal nationals are established on the east coast. Maybe we still want to see good characters throw down with the bat gone without limiting it down to everyone below GnW or Luigi.

I didn't know SA was dropping out too. I agree it would be dumb to call 4 HOBOs and 1 Tyler event a state circuit. Thats unfortunate. Thread title still could use a change...

 

[Xyro77]

title ill change for sure. as for MK banned, id have to talk to DA and see what he thinks. people have been asking about it being banned for months now

 

[Okuser]

I'd be so sad if I I couldn't go to anymore LSC events because yall ban MK


and besides, in what stone age region of america are they still banning mk in lol?

 

[Tesh]

TX doesn't follow single file behind NY/NJ like the rest of you, sorry. Don't mess with Texas!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd rather attend a 100 man MK banned Whobo than a 400 man MK legal Apex.

 

[Psychoace]

I'd be so sad if I I couldn't go to anymore LSC events because yall ban MK


and besides, in what stone age region of america are they still banning mk in lol?

Australia

 

[Espy Rose]

I'll probably avoid future tournaments if they don't ban MK. I'm done supporting a scene that allows them to roam free.

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

In what stone age region of america are they still banning mk in lol?

My new signature BTW.

For real though, didn't Unity disband in like 2010? I thought the complaining about MK was in the past. Will all that MK experience we've learned over the years just be flushed down the drain? Extremely talented players like ANTi and M2K will have have an even smaller scene to work with- it doesn't fix the problem just pushing all the MKs into retirement or to another state. It just means that they'll be more MKs in different regions, because they're banned in Texas (a huge state that houses a lot of smashers). When MK was released from his chains after people stopped using the Unity ruleset for every tournament he did come back, but there were still restrictions. MK has half the ledge grab limit of every other character, the scrooging rule, and bans on things like infinite dimensional cape. MK may be there but he has restrictions. With proper moderation, MK isn't an unbeatable character on paper that everybody whines about. Remember, player skill will always outclass technical, and if you look at big tourneys today you'll see that more and more people are learning the MK matchup. You can't please everybody, there will always be people complaining about something, but banning MK isn't the solution. It would be like the secession of the south in 1861; Texas would be known as,"That state that bans MK." Rather than, "The home state of extremely talented players like Denti." I don't live in Texas but I hope my opinion is not instantly discredited because of that. I'm really looking forward to my first tournament "Who's Tyler" in a few weeks, and it would be kind of sad if I didn't get to play (against and with) MK, whom which I have a very fun time with. "MK dittos, y'all know this is my jam"-quote from Esu.

 

[Geoberos]

League of Draven?

Super Smash MKs.

 

[TM_icecream]

Stop being bad and learn to beat MK tesh.

Nado is bad and every character has a move that beats it.
Now he can't Nado because you keep beating it, so he starts sheild>ftilting
Sheild his ftilt and ISSDI forward to grab him

Yay you're beating MK
this character is bad

DON'T FORGET WHO'S TYLER 4 IS COMING UP IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS ON THE 20TH! http://smashboards.com/threads/road...hope-50-april-20th-2013-lindale-texas.335078/

 

[Xyro77]

I'd be so sad if I I couldn't go to anymore LSC events because yall ban MK

you still have a REAL character: snake

and besides, in what stone age region of america are they still banning mk in lol?

Doing something different/unique doesnt mean its backwards or "old." You gotta be smarter than that, dude.

For real though, didn't Unity disband in like 2010?

Ive banned mk way before i helped create the URC and the Unity ruleset. The dis-banning of the URC was because the smash "government" aka the anti-ban admins didnt like the fact the BBR couldnt make rulesets anymore. It wasnt disbanned because no one used the Unity ruleset (in fact, at one point, 80% of all events on any given weekend used unity). Your a new gen so you didnt know that.

I thought the complaining about MK was in the past. Will all that MK experience we've learned over the years just be flushed down the drain?

All that "MK" experience has never been gained in the first place. He STILL has no bad MUs He STILL doesnt bad stages. He STILL wins more/places better/earns more money than any character in the game. Meaning he STILL dominates....for 5 years now. Complaining about mk has never been and never will be "in the past."

Extremely talented players like ANTi and M2K will have have an even smaller scene to work with- it doesn't fix the problem just pushing all the MKs into retirement or to another state. It just means that they'll be more MKs in different regions, because they're banned in Texas (a huge state that houses a lot of smashers).

You fail to see what banning mk does in a region like tx. I dont ban it to make other regions have more or less mks. i dont ban him to cause M2k/Anti...ect have smaller scenes/bigger scenes to work with. I ban mk because of the fact he is single handedly responsible for the consistent degradation of this already ****ty game. Year after year we have made rules to restrict mk. From banning levels to scrooge rules to LGLs to timers.....ect. Hell, when i was in the BBR there where threads talking about possibly limiting how many nados a MK could do pure stock. It is literally rediculous that we (as TOs/rule makers/PLAYERS) have to bend this game as far as we have in order to keep batman legal.

When MK was released from his chains after people stopped using the Unity ruleset for every tournament he did come back, but there were still restrictions. MK has half the ledge grab limit of every other character, the scrooging rule, and bans on things like infinite dimensional cape. MK may be there but he has restrictions.

Literally has done nothing (or very little at best) for 5 years now. Read the paragraph above again.

With proper moderation, MK isn't an unbeatable character on paper that everybody whines about.

The people that say hes "unbeatable" are literal new gen nerds who don't represent true pro-ban players. It has been known since day one that metaknight IS beatable. Read a few paragraphs back as to why pro-ban wants him to go.

Remember, player skill will always outclass technical, and if you look at big tourneys today you'll see that more and more people are learning the MK matchup.

This is mathematically/mechanically/financially/ecologically/environmentally/physiologically/ false and has been false since month 2 of brawls life.

You can't please everybody, there will always be people complaining about something, but banning MK isn't the solution.

I know you cant please everybody
I know people will always complain about something
Banning mk IS the solution if mk is wrecking your brawl.

It would be like the secession of the south in 1861; Texas would be known as,"That state that bans MK." Rather than, "The home state of extremely talented players like Denti."

I literally do not care about our states reputation because people will think what they may. Our players winning/losing on a national level builds/destroys our rep.

I don't live in Texas but I hope my opinion is not instantly discredited because of that.

nah. its discredited for other things

I'm really looking forward to my first tournament "Who's Tyler" in a few weeks, and it would be kind of sad if I didn't get to play (against and with) MK, whom which I have a very fun time with. "MK dittos, y'all know this is my jam"-quote from Esu.

LMAO a MK user defending using MK. literally a textbook anti-ban.

Stop being bad and learn to beat MK tesh.

Nado is bad and every character has a move that beats it.
Now he can't Nado because you keep beating it, so he starts sheild>ftilting
Sheild his ftilt and ISSDI forward to grab him

Yay you're beating MK
this character is bad

it is safe to say, you know less about smash than a dead hamster

 

[TM_icecream]

I know I can beat u in a mm Leggo nerd

No but for real though. MK is the best, but he isn't broken. I don't ban MK because I don't need to. Tx has 3 MK's that could do anything at a national level. But we have many olimars/ZSS's/ had razer and we have trela and kinda gnes. Aside from gnes now and then most of our top players don't use MK. He's the best, but not leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else(above mid-tier)
Everyone uses MK because he's the best. If every tourney ever banned him, everyone would use Oli or ICs because they're the best. Then they'd dominate every tourney.
F, we should ban Oli and ICs.
Banning MK is only a short-term solution that really solves nothing.

I don't support MK banned whobo

 

[Zano]

whobo 4 was mk banned and it was pretty **** fun. I could care less either way tbh, it's the people I go to see that I care about.

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

Banning MK is only a short-term solution that really solves nothing.

What I was trying to get across, but Xyro makes many extremely valid points that I will be expanding on in a bit. Man I love smashboards so much more than AiB. The maturity and calm nature of this discussion really keeps me coming back. As opposed to the 12 year old trolls on AiB blogging about their life story and how they have no friends.

 

[Tesh]

Dang, Xyro said pretty much everything I wanted to say,

Its just plain stupid to assume I want MK banned because I don't know the matchup or can't beat MKs. Its just plain stupid to worry that 1/37 matchups will be flushed down the drain when his presence trivializes the need for knowledge in so many matchups.

And come on, you think local MKs are going to flee the region to play Brawl in another state.

I'm trying not to be mean about any of this, but its hard to respect your opinion when you haven't even considered that everything you say applies to the other side the argument (usually better).

 

[Sinister Slush]

No but for real though. MK is the best, but he isn't broken.

No he's pretty much an annoying character.

I don't ban MK because I don't need to.

Cause your money goes to Denti while the only MK that can get 2nd or 3rd is Infinity.

But we have many olimars/ZSS's/ had razer and we have trela and kinda gnes. Aside from gnes now and then most of our top players don't use MK.

That's cause when it comes to top players they can handle most MKs but still find him annoying. You sometimes have to sadly cater to lower leveled players. Frankly I probably wouldn't go to much tournaments if they were MK legal. WHOBO 5 is hit or miss just cause it'd be the third one I've gone too.

He's the best, but not leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else(above mid-tier)

If every tourney ever banned him, everyone would use Oli or ICs because they're the best. Then they'd dominate every tourney.
F, we should ban Oli and ICs.

So? It's easier to punish bad Olimars and ICs that know a decent amount about the game compared to bad Meta Knights that know some things.

Banning MK is only a short-term solution that really solves nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cVlTeIATBs#t=6s
wrong.

I don't support MK banned whobo

Oh well, just don't go.

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

Ive banned mk way before i helped create the URC and the Unity ruleset. The dis-banning of the URC was because the smash "government" aka the anti-ban admins didnt like the fact the BBR couldnt make rulesets anymore. It wasnt disbanned because no one used the Unity ruleset (in fact, at one point, 80% of all events on any given weekend used unity). Your a new gen so you didnt know that.

True, I am new gen. I got in to the competitive scene last summer, and have learned a LOT since then through watching all the tourneys I could find on youtube and checking smashboards (even though I didn't have an account then). But I do know that I lack heavily in the experience department. Heck last month was the first time I've played against active competitive players (Gunner and Okuser) other than my friend who lives here. But I personally like the Apex and Japanese rulesheets just because I've only been active for almost a year. Rulesheets that have a more strict starter and counterpick list (the absence of Brinstar, Rainnbow cruise, and Pokemon stadium 2) seems more fair and competitive to me. And the banning of MK: I was pretty much a bandwagoner when I first started since I didn't know anything back then and my friend told me that MK is banned. It wasn't unil I watched Apex 2012 when I thought,"Hmmmm, MK isn't God." I never had any connection with the Unity so the MK ban was something I perceived as "in the past" when someone told me that Unity disbanded.

All that "MK" experience has never been gained in the first place. He STILL has no bad MUs He STILL doesnt bad stages. He STILL wins more/places better/earns more money than any character in the game. Meaning he STILL dominates....for 5 years now. Complaining about mk has never been and never will be "in the past."

I mean, is Salem winning Apex 2013 not an eye opener for you that MK is getting beaten? All the MKs of Team The World (ZeRo, Kakera, Rain, Otori) got beaten in crews (Apex 2013). Yeah he's still winning more than every other character, but to me it looks like he's getting beaten and figured out more and more, even with all these advantages. I haven't been in the Smash community for a long time, so I don't know personally don't know the track record. But it seems a little ignorant to say that "No MK experience has ever been gained in the first place."

You fail to see what banning mk does in a region like tx. I dont ban it to make other regions have more or less mks. i dont ban him to cause M2k/Anti...ect have smaller scenes/bigger scenes to work with. I ban mk because of the fact he is single handedly responsible for the consistent degradation of this already ****ty game. Year after year we have made rules to restrict mk. From banning levels to scrooge rules to LGLs to timers.....ect. Hell, when i was in the BBR there where threads talking about possibly limiting how many nados a MK could do pure stock. It is literally rediculous that we (as TOs/rule makers/PLAYERS) have to bend this game as far as we have in order to keep batman legal

I wasn't assuming that your goal was to gimp MK players outside of your region. I mean what did you think I was thinking? "Omg he just wants 2 attack MK anyway he can cuz hes a h8er and will do anything to gimp him in 'Merica." lol I'm trying to think this logically, with deductive reasoning and educated guesses.

The people that say hes "unbeatable" are literal new gen nerds who don't represent true pro-ban players. It has been known since day one that metaknight IS beatable. Read a few paragraphs back as to why pro-ban wants him to go.

And I'm glad that I'm conversing with someone of a high stature (absolutely no sarcasm intended. I'm discussing a topic with someone who helped create a defining rulesheet in the Brawl community) rather than the people you are discrediting.

This is mathematically/mechanically/financially/ecologically/environmentally/physiologically/ false and has been false since month 2 of brawls life

please explain? With this counterstatement one could draw the conclusion that a new MK player that started today will beat Ally.

I know you cant please everybody
I know people will always complain about something
Banning mk IS the solution if mk is wrecking your brawl.

In your very logical opinion MK is wrecking our brawl. I see him more as a challenge. It's fun to me to play MK. But maybe that's because I haven't played enough different MKs.

I literally do not care about our states reputation because people will think what they may. Our players winning/losing on a national level builds/destroys our rep

Maybe to higher ups, but to the general community do you really think that people will see through that to respect the state? Remember, the internet is FULL of *******. The general smash community may be more mature than that so I might be wrong.

nah. its discredited for other things

Like what?

it is safe to say, you know less about smash than a dead hamster

Check the first response. Also throwing insults isn't cool man.

 

[Zano]

it's people like you and ice cream that don't know how to argue that make the pro mk side look bad, plz stop, or use better reasoning.

 

[TM_icecream]

Ok. Look.

I was pro MK when I mained puff. I was pro MK when the URC took the vote for the MK ban(though I voted to ban him because I thought it'd be interesting to see results without him.)

I'm technically a new gen if you go on xyros definition(aka didn't play melee before brawl was released) but my first tourney was January 2011. I've been in the scene, started a scene, learned a LOT, and am honestly a very knowledgable player. I know a lot about smash.

That being said, if 50% of the community uses MK, 40% of them suck with MK. Sure you kinda gotta look out for lower level players, but if MK is 50% of the community, and MK is banned, you lose a lot more players than you would should he be legal.
Since you can't please everybody, do you please MK mains or non MK mains?

Also we would get a lot more progress done if you guys would say "I disagree" and not "you're wrong. Idiot."

 

[Geoberos]

That's assuming that ALL the players that "suck with MK" don't switch to another character and leave the game completely.

 

[Espy Rose]

Salem winning Apex wasn't an eye opener because it's something most veterans have seen before. A character beats a Meta Knight at a few tournaments (in this case, just one), becomes a flavor of the month, then falls into the dark depths of obscurity once more.

Tell me, what's Zero Suit done since then that suggests that she's an MK slayer? Salem's lost when it matters just as much, if not more, than he's won since Apex.

What Salem did is just another short chapter of another useless character's 15 Minutes of Fame. Soon she'll be at the end of the list with Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Olimar, and every other good character who managed to sneak away with the W at some point or another.
Oh, and Yoshi too.

 

[TM_icecream]

Honestly, MK hasn't won that many nationals.
So Salem probably didn't open anyone's eyes to anything except maybe that high tiers can be viable at a national level.

Equally, everyone uses the FAMAS online in black ops(or noob tubes)
People want the best chance to win. That's why I use MK, I'm a gay tier ***** scrub who wants MK so I can do better, and I'm not ashamed of it.
Ban MK, I'll probably pick up Olimar, ICs, or maybe ZSS or snake cause they're fun

 

[Tesh]

Icecream, the way you try to support your views doesn't make you sound knowledgeable. As Zano said, there are better anti-ban arguments and there is merit on both sides. Just like there are better pro-ban arguments than the words you and ramsaur tried to strawman me with.

I only don't think Whobo 5 going MK banned is going to shrink the scene for Anti and M2K as you said. They have the rest of the world to glide across.

The fact of the matter is that alot of things are already banned because we just don't like them. Many stage tactics, "stalling" issues and items don't create unbeatable tactics, but it creates an atmosphere the majority of players didn't want. I'm not advocating for MK to be banned just for me, I'm asking for Xyro and the other TOs involved to consider banning him and reaching out to their scenes for feedback.

edit: in any case, last whobo was lead into by many MK LEGAL events, so its not like xyro would be forcing you into making your tournament mk banned. since you are the only city not dropping out, the rest of the circuit is basically his to run as he pleases.

icecream send me the gct you are using for tyler's event

 

[TM_icecream]

Idk what a gct is


I'm mostly disagreeing with slush, since he practically said "the problem with MK isn't that he's unbeatable it's that everyone uses him"
After I said "ban MK and everyone will use Oli/ICs"
Then he said "that's ok though because you can actually beat those characters"

Most of the Tyler scene wants MK legal so he's legal at my events. I will probably ban him at WT5 or 6 though. I'm an MK ban agnostic like I'm cool with either but lean towards no ban

 

[DeLux]

Two out of those three statements in that argument flow are incorrect >_>

 

[TM_icecream]

There are like 50 arguments on this page alone pls specify

 

[Geoberos]

He didn't say anything about beating those characters. In response to "Instead of everyone playing MK now will play Oli/IC," he's saying that it's "easier to punish" bad Oli/ICs than bad MKs.

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

Salem winning Apex wasn't an eye opener because it's something most veterans have seen before. A character beats a Meta Knight at a few tournaments (in this case, just one), becomes a flavor of the month, then falls into the dark depths of obscurity once more.

Tell me, what's Zero Suit done since then that suggests that she's an MK slayer? Salem's lost when it matters just as much, if not more, than he's won since Apex.

What Salem did is just another short chapter of another useless character's 15 Minutes of Fame. Soon she'll be at the end of the list with Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Olimar, and every other good character who managed to sneak away with the W at some point or another.
Oh, and Yoshi too.

Someone that's not MetaKnight winning the world tournament is significant to this topic. Of course people beat MK at tournaments; that just reinforces my points about MK getting beaten and figured out.

Tell me, when the freaking crap did I suggest that ZSS is an MK slayer? Pulling random claims of things I never said out of the air does nothing to this conversation. "Salem lost when it matters just as much, if not more, than he's won since Apex." Another statement that reinforces one of my points; that player skill beats technical skills. It wasn't just ZSS that beat M2K, it was Salem. Salem lost to M2K at rescue 2; so that means Apex 2013 was just a fluke right? Of course not!!! M2K's player skill was just that much better than Salem's since the last time they met.

What Salem did, is another chapter of competitive smash's history, that will be remembered fondly as someone other than MK winning the biggest tournament in the world. If you always have a negative view on these things and other characters, then it will never get better. I wasn't trying to say that Salem winning Apex means that every MK main is beatable now. That would be very ignorant of me to have such a narrow viewpoint. Players like Nairo, Tyrant, and ZeRo are still going to place very high at tournaments because they are good players. It's just another case that helps me with my claim that MK isn't as terrible as he is being debated about right now on this thread.

 

[Espy Rose]

Meta Knight is toxic to the game. It would take a consistent stream of Salem's over a long span of time to ever refute that. Negative or not, I'm not going to fool myself into believing something that just isn't true.

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

Why you say MK is "toxic" to the game is because you're looking at him and not giving credit to the huge mass of non MK mains that win and place high in tournaments. We have "Salems." Extremely talented players that play other characters place very high at national tournaments: ESAM, Vinnie, DEHF, Dabuz, Denti, ADHD, Zienoto, Ally, Ultimate Razor, Neo, MikeHaze, I'd be here for a long time stating the high placing "Salems"; and there are maaaaany people like You who place high in state level tournaments who don't play MK. I've seen your Sonic, it's freaking ridiculous, I studied it when I had Sonic as a secondary! You're not fooling yourself if you look past the many high placing MKs to see that players with characters other than MK play at a ridiculously high level.

Let's say there's this compound that an organ needs that comes from your favorite food. Without this organ, you have no reason to eat your favorite food. But you get too much of it because of an overdose of your favorite food, and your body becomes poisoned because you ate too much of that food. You can remove the toxic organ and the poison will be gone, but so will your organ, leaving you without a certain function that your body once had. Feeling somewhat empty because you remember that gap used to be filled with something. Or you wait for the toxic to leave your body with the aid of different compounds from different foods, and your body's immune system ganging up on that compound you got too much of. The compound wouldn't be overpowering your organ anymore, you get to keep that organ; and you learn through trial and error that other foods are very pleasing to you, and you still get to eat your favorite food.

Everybody wins in that parable if you look and see that MK is getting beaten.