Rex Drives into Battle! (...As Pyra's Final Smash!!)

[AnEasterEgg]

I'm not saying they're the same franchise, but they're closely related and have a lot of fan overlap. From a business perspective, that would make it an odd choice to include both a Xenosaga rep and Xenoblade rep, especially when they're both relatively niche. Maybe we could get one in base game and another in DLC, if we're lucky.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm not saying they're the same franchise, but they're closely related and have a lot of fan overlap. From a business perspective, that would make it an odd choice to include both a Xenosaga rep and Xenoblade rep, especially when they're both relatively niche. Maybe we could get one in base game and another in DLC, if we're lucky.

I mean...not like the same series haven't gotten multiple fighters in one game, let alone similar ones. Besides, there may not be as much casual overlap as you'd think. As Xenoblade grows and brings in new fans, many may have no idea what Xenosaga is. Though the existing fans may not let them not know.

Either way, overlap shouldn't really be an issue. Shouldn't being the key word. Hard to really say what their decision criteria are. Like I said, Rex was I think the most requested Xenoblade rep...only for Sakurai to talk about the fans not wanting it. Maybe he was talking about the implementation, but...that second system seemed to be the most accurate to the game. Maybe Sakurai is listening too much to the haters in this case.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Like I said, Rex was I think the most requested Xenoblade rep...only for Sakurai to talk about the fans not wanting it

He never said fans didn't want Rex.

The reason Rex wasn't included was because the Rex and Pyra/Mythra combo was deemed too technically demanding.

 

[Arthur97]

He never said fans didn't want Rex.

The reason Rex wasn't included was because the Rex and Pyra/Mythra combo was deemed too technically demanding.

He did mention the main reason being something about not thinking it was what the fans wanted. He was talking about that at the part for the cheerleader (i.e. most accurate probably) one. So, seemingly either he thought fans didn't want an accurate translation of the gameplay, or it was Rex himself.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

He did mention the main reason being something about not thinking it was what the fans wanted. He was talking about that at the part for the cheerleader (i.e. most accurate probably) one. So, seemingly either he thought fans didn't want an accurate translation of the gameplay, or it was Rex himself.

Give me a source.

Cause the presentation does not say that.

In the interview, he says he thought swapping between the two girls would be better than just solo Rex. Nothing about what fans want.

Sakurai Explains Why Xenoblade's Rex Isn't A Smash Ultimate DLC Fighter

"it was impossible"

www.nintendolife.com

You are making things up.

This thread is starting to see malice where there isn't any. Just like a lot of deconfirmed character threads.

Snap out of it.

Sakurai making a couple of jokes at Chrom's expense didn't mean he hated Chrom.

 

[Arthur97]

Sakurai elaborates on Pyra/Mythra in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate and why Rex isn't a fighter

Last week, Pyra/Mythra was added to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate as the latest DLC character. The two-in-one fighter is the new representative from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 instead of Rex, who has the starring role. You may recall that Smash Bros. director Masahiro Sakurai talked about the decision...

nintendoeverything.com

Paragraph five of the column at the end. There is a discrepancy here, I'll admit. I don't know if one is outright wrong or one is just incomplete. If you can explain it, feel free. As it stands, that column is suspect either way, as why would fans not want a system like that?

And can you blame anyone here for seeing malice? Have you seen how the internet treats Rex?

 

[fogbadge]

Well more unique than solo rex.

would it have been though? what if rex was one character switching between movesets thatd be way more unique than what we got

 

[PSIGuy]

I mean it sounds like the order of ideas went

1. Rex and Pyra fighting together a la Ice Climbers, which was cut because it strained the hardware too much
2. Rex fighting with Pyra/Mythra in the background a la Pokemon Trainer, presumably so he can switch weapons, which was cut because it still had too many models and Sakurai didn't know what to do with the Ether beam
3. Pyra and Mythra fighting, which we got, which was basically the above but easier to handle

So by the time they decided on a concept it was already going to be a stance character. Like comparing Minmin and Ninjara - both were considered but the moveset would've been basically the same concept with only things like Minmin's kicks featuring in some moves and the Arm choices differing. In future Rex could be a Isabelle style 'newcomer' where he has a largely similar playstyle and gimmick but with his Driver Arts as his Specials.

Shame that the Icies 2.0 idea fell through, because it would've been way more interesting.

 

[fogbadge]

I think the main take away is that he determined to have pyra/mythra on screen all the time no matter what

 

[Nihilem]

Yeah, that's the thing, they don't have a super stand out gimmick. Like I said before, nothing wrong with a more basic moveset, but if that's going to be your reasoning...only to pretty much reuse gimmicks....

Speculation is one thing. Why would they reboot the series? Why would you throw away what you have, only to just bring a lot of it back? Unless their goal is to eliminate a lot of the Nintendo stuff to actually fit their marketing of "gaming" but what interest would Nintendo have in actively removing their own content?

Because including and porting all content again (to the next consol - dont believe switch will see another smash) becomes a more and more difficult task the bigger the games gets... In ultimate to make that happen we paid with having less newcomers and extremely less new stages. And this game is quite a bunch bigger than smash 4. And then people still expect new content that exceeds that of another dlc pack (because why should pay 60€-70€ for a new game when a dlc pack costs half of it and gives us 5-6 fighters/stages).
While also voices get louder that the old guard ( Mario, Link, .... ) should get essential reworks to also bring out there full potential. And dont forget about the crowd that wishes for a proper Subspace Emissary type singleplayer.

Not saying that they must or should do that. But most other fighting game franchises had this reboot at same point in time, so it is only logical to assume that sooner or later that will also happen to smash. Can be the next game or the game after that, but at one point it will come.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

The reboot theory is dumb.

Did SNK reboot the King of Fighters series, let alone its plot, after leaving out several characters after KOF '98 and '02? No. Especially considering the financial troubles they faced back then.

Hell, Street Fighter has never rebooted even once, even after officially going into 3D for 4 onwards (only the EX games are non-canon).

Smash has even less of an ongoing plot than many other fighting games. At most I'd expect some third-parties and the more redundant characters to be left out for the sake of base game development ease, but some could always have the chance to come back as DLC due to immunity, if possible.

It's like a Mortal Kombat 9 or Soul Calibur 6 scenario is expected, but even then those only happened because their series were killed off by a previous installment that bombed massively in sales.

The only thing that would be of concern to me is gameplay changes, after all Brawl introduced slower physics and tripping, and the series survived those by leaving them out.

 

[Nihilem]

Reboot in this sense means more like quite significant roster cuts and reworked movesets then new story. I dont think they can just continue to add characters indefinitely.

 

[Arthur97]

Brawl is not a reboot. Smash 4 is not a reboot, but both saw cuts. Next game will probably have cuts, but that doesn't mean reboot. Sakurai if anything seems too dedicated to some existing movesets, so the idea they're just going to throw it out the window and start from scratch seems like a stretch to say the least. If cuts need to be made, make the cuts, but restarting seems like an even greater waste of time and energy, especially when the series is so well established. If it ain't broke, don't fix it after all. Even the "redundant" fighters may not be cut though as they're generally some of the cheapest and easiest to make. I mean, if they really want to save time and money, third parties are probably who they need to look at cutting.

 

[fogbadge]

Brawl is not a reboot. Smash 4 is not a reboot, but both saw cuts. Next game will probably have cuts, but that doesn't mean reboot. Sakurai if anything seems too dedicated to some existing movesets, so the idea they're just going to throw it out the window and start from scratch seems like a stretch to say the least. If cuts need to be made, make the cuts, but restarting seems like an even greater waste of time and energy, especially when the series is so well established. If it ain't broke, don't fix it after all. Even the "redundant" fighters may not be cut though as they're generally some of the cheapest and easiest to make. I mean, if they really want to save time and money, third parties are probably who they need to look at cutting.

yeah licence fees must really add to the needed resources

though i doubt sonic will ever go at this point not unless nintendo and sega have a huge falling out

 

[Nihilem]

Brawl is not a reboot. Smash 4 is not a reboot, but both saw cuts. Next game will probably have cuts, but that doesn't mean reboot. Sakurai if anything seems too dedicated to some existing movesets, so the idea they're just going to throw it out the window and start from scratch seems like a stretch to say the least.

Thats unfortunately true...

But it isnt a given that sakurai will always be in charge of Smash. Let the man use his talents for more .... like a new kid icarus game or another revival of one of nintendos long lost franchises? He claimed that he wanted to do something else since melee, at some point in time he will make that statement true.

 

[GolisoPower]

Thats unfortunately true...

But it isnt a given that sakurai will always be in charge of Smash. Let the man use his talents for more .... like a new kid icarus game or another revival of one of nintendos long lost franchises? He claimed that he wanted to do something else since melee, at some point in time he will make that statement true.

Yeah, that or maybe he could contact Q Entertainment and make a new Meteos game. That was basically Sakurai's first-ever project under the Sora Ltd. banner.

 

[Arthur97]

Thats unfortunately true...

But it isnt a given that sakurai will always be in charge of Smash. Let the man use his talents for more .... like a new kid icarus game or another revival of one of nintendos long lost franchises? He claimed that he wanted to do something else since melee, at some point in time he will make that statement true.

Even if it's not Sakurai, why would you take what works, and potentially break it? If it doesn't need fixing, why revamp it? Just make the cuts that need to happen, and continue the series. For everyone that a revamp makes happy, how many are going to be upset by massive restructuring? Honestly though, if they wanted to avoid massive cuts, they might want to look into simply carrying over and expanding Ultimate.

 

[Nihilem]

Even if it's not Sakurai, why would you take what works, and potentially break it? If it doesn't need fixing, why revamp it? Just make the cuts that need to happen, and continue the series. For everyone that a revamp makes happy, how many are going to be upset by massive restructuring? Honestly though, if they wanted to avoid massive cuts, they might want to look into simply carrying over and expanding Ultimate.

Because even it is not broken it can always be better. Movesets of the veterans feel quite old in comparisions to additions of ultimate and especially the dlc in my opinion. Breaking with old traditions can create great products even if they initial have some scepticism. Just look at BotW or Mario Odyssey as examples. Or LoL, which also constanly reworks veteran characters. It quite depends on the execution, if the char becomes just better in the process upset normally quiets down quite quickly. It is of course a risk - I am not denying that.

 

[Arthur97]

Because even it is not broken it can always be better. Movesets of the veterans feel quite old in comparisions to additions of ultimate and especially the dlc in my opinion. Breaking with old traditions can create great products even if they initial have some scepticism. Just look at BotW or Mario Odyssey as examples. Or LoL, which also constanly reworks veteran characters. It quite depends on the execution, if the char becomes just better in the process upset normally quiets down quite quickly.

In your opinion. Also, Odyssey didn't really reinvent the wheel, but moreso went back to an older way of doing things and streamlined it. Just because a moveset isn't kept up with the most recent games doesn't make them bad, or if everyone doesn't get some ludicrous gimmick. Especially something like Mario. He is so old that trying to keep him up with the most recent installment probably isn't worth it. Plus, at this point, Mario's cape is pretty iconic to his moveset. Change that, and you lose something. That's just one example. Either way, this whole reboot thing just seems to be fan thinking with little to no evidence. There is no real reason to think they're going to throw out years of history because a few people online want it.

 

[Nihilem]

Thats the definition of online speculation. I think for more than 90% of the speculations on this forum we have no evidence.

 

[Arthur97]

Still seems like an odd thing to assume. Aren't reboots better suited for when something is dead or just not working anymore? Not coming off your biggest success yet?

 

[fogbadge]

Thats unfortunately true...

But it isnt a given that sakurai will always be in charge of Smash. Let the man use his talents for more .... like a new kid icarus game or another revival of one of nintendos long lost franchises? He claimed that he wanted to do something else since melee, at some point in time he will make that statement true.

i mean hes done several none smash things since then

 

[RawkHawk2010]

To put a rest to the "Sakurai could have implemented a basic reverse Pokémon Trainer setup but didn't" narrative, Pokémon Trainer is already technically too much for Smash or else the trainer would still appear in the background of matches with more than four participants. This isn't something you have to take Sakurai's word for as it's easy enough to ascertain for yourself. If you still need to blame him for something, blame him for introducing the concept of 8-player Smash before Rex ever existed.

 

[fogbadge]

To put a rest to the "Sakurai could have implemented a basic reverse Pokémon Trainer setup but didn't" narrative, Pokémon Trainer is already technically too much for Smash or else the trainer would still appear in the background of matches with more than four participants. This isn't something you have to take Sakurai's word for as it's easy enough to ascertain for yourself. If you still need to blame him for something, blame him for introducing the concept of 8-player Smash before Rex ever existed.

or we could blame him for preferring to focus on characters he attracted to

 

[Nihilem]

To put a rest to the "Sakurai could have implemented a basic reverse Pokémon Trainer setup but didn't" narrative, Pokémon Trainer is already technically too much for Smash or else the trainer would still appear in the background of matches with more than four participants. This isn't something you have to take Sakurai's word for as it's easy enough to ascertain for yourself. If you still need to blame him for something, blame him for introducing the concept of 8-player Smash before Rex ever existed.

Oh I didnt even knew that ...... but in retrospective things get a lot clearer now ...

 

[chocolatejr9]

Oh I didnt even knew that ...... but in retrospective things get a lot clearer now ...

Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, 8-Player Smash should probably go...

 

[Lamperouge]

Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, 8-Player Smash should probably go...

Or maybe Nintendo could create a more powerful system to handle 8-player Smash without making any sacrifices.

 

[Arthur97]

To put a rest to the "Sakurai could have implemented a basic reverse Pokémon Trainer setup but didn't" narrative, Pokémon Trainer is already technically too much for Smash or else the trainer would still appear in the background of matches with more than four participants. This isn't something you have to take Sakurai's word for as it's easy enough to ascertain for yourself. If you still need to blame him for something, blame him for introducing the concept of 8-player Smash before Rex ever existed.

That seems like a pretty flimsy excuse seeing as...they could just take them away in the same way. It's not the only cuts they make for high fighter matches like Morgana not sowing up in taunts after a certain threshold (doesn't apply to Rex for some reason though). But, the main issue comes down to the line about not thinking the fans would want...something.

As for 8-player, yeah, it should probably go really. How many actually use it, let alone enjoy that much chaos? Yes, I'm sure some do, but even as a party game, 8 just seems like too much. Maybe at least limit it to 6. It seems a pretty niche thing to have to make these kinds of sacrifices for. Not that it will change anything probably. Damage is done.

 

[fogbadge]

Or maybe Nintendo could create a more powerful system to handle 8-player Smash without making any sacrifices.

thats the least likely suggestion yet

 

[RawkHawk2010]

That seems like a pretty flimsy excuse seeing as...they could just take them away in the same way.

I think you're failing to fully recognize what it means to be a Blade. Drivers without their Blade(s) by their side are generally ineffective when it comes to combat, but the inverse isn't true; the entire concept of the Merc Mission system would be invalidated otherwise. Add in the fact that they're not just any Blade but an Aegis and it's obvious Pyra and Mythra are the ones with more combat agency even if Rex spends more time physically holding the weapon. The exclusivity is unfortunate ("A Driver and Blade are one in body and soul. You're not at full strength without him." - Mythra c. 3564), but a technically-strained fighting game prioritizing the more physically capable characters isn't the nefarious anti-Rex plot you're making it out to be.

But, the main issue comes down to the line about not thinking the fans would want...something.

I don't think saying Xenoblade fans wouldn't want to see a nonfunctional moveset is particularly controversial.

As for 8-player, yeah, it should probably go really. How many actually use it, let alone enjoy that much chaos? Yes, I'm sure some do, but even as a party game, 8 just seems like too much.

It's apparently extremely popular in college game rooms and dormitories, but yeah, ideally that feature would have been put on ice for a few more years decades.

 

[Arthur97]

I think you're failing to fully recognize what it means to be a Blade. Drivers without their Blade(s) by their side are generally ineffective when it comes to combat, but the inverse isn't true; the entire concept of the Merc Mission system would be invalidated otherwise. Add in the fact that they're not just any Blade but an Aegis and it's obvious Pyra and Mythra are the ones with more combat agency even if Rex spends more time physically holding the weapon. The exclusivity is unfortunate ("A Driver and Blade are one in body and soul. You're not at full strength without him." - Mythra c. 3564), but a technically-strained fighting game prioritizing the more physically capable characters isn't the nefarious anti-Rex plot you're making it out to be.

I meant take them away graphically if there are too many fighters on screen. It would just be a cosmetic change to make the game, you know, run, and not impact 4 players or less. Again, like the trainers.

And it's not like actually trained drivers would be helpless on their own. Rex actually does fight on his own in game (even if there's a bit of slight of hand as he apparently has an invisible blade equipped in gameplay) seeing as he doesn't become a driver till the very end of chapter 1.

Besides, "physically fit" may not be the best argument when you got someone like Rosalina or Isabelle that hardly does anything in their own games.

I don't think saying Xenoblade fans wouldn't want to see a nonfunctional moveset is particularly controversial.

It wasn't even that. The way he said it after going over the technical hurdles was along the lines of more than that, they just thought that fans wouldn't want it. Giving the implication that fan desire was the biggest factor. Or at least what they thought it would be. I don't really see why Pyra in the background would be so taxing, especially as they could just remove her after crossing a player threshold. Affinity I could see less on a technical level and more on a how does it work level.

Either way, at the end of the day, it's also a poor representation of the source game. Especially after they seemingly went all out for ARMS and Minecraft. Sakurai's own wanting them to stand out argument doesn't even really seem to apply to all the DLC. I'm a proponent of not needing a super gimmick, but at least be consistent in your own reasoning, Sakurai. Don't shoot one down while you also made Banjo and Kazooie and the Byleths.

 

[fogbadge]

again the two of them are in cause sakurai's attracted to them he pretty much gave them game away in the presentation

 

[Nihilem]

I meant take them away graphically if there are too many fighters on screen. It would just be a cosmetic change to make the game, you know, run, and not impact 4 players or less. Again, like the trainers.

....


It wasn't even that. The way he said it after going over the technical hurdles was along the lines of more than that, they just thought that fans wouldn't want it. Giving the implication that fan desire was the biggest factor. Or at least what they thought it would be. I don't really see why Pyra in the background would be so taxing, especially as they could just remove her after crossing a player threshold. Affinity I could see less on a technical level and more on a how does it work level.

You cant just remove Pyra when she has some mechanic attached to her be it affinity or something else. Trainers can be removed because their only purpose is to look good.

And having Rex without any interaction with pyra/mythra wouldnt really represent XC2 also.

Btw, do we have someone here who speaks japanese? I would like to know what this „XC would not want this“ actually refers to. And in my experience translations from some magazines are quite susceptible to errors.

 

[Arthur97]

You cant just remove Pyra when she has some mechanic attached to her be it affinity or something else. Trainers can be removed because their only purpose is to look good.

And having Rex without any interaction with pyra/mythra wouldnt really represent XC2 also.

Btw, do we have someone here who speaks japanese? I would like to know what this „XC would not want this“ actually refers to. And in my experience translations from some magazines are quite susceptible to errors.

Depends on if being close actually mattered. If she was just there cosmetically for it, then...she wouldn't have to be there. Depends on if she helped I suppose.

True, it wouldn't, but it'd at least be slightly more accurate than having the mostly passive members doing the fighting, and I imagine it would have mirrored them with the girls being relatively present for NPCs. Either way, you can't really look at this and go, "Wow, they really incorporated XC2 into Smash extremely well." And, it's not like Pyra and Mythra are extremely "DLC" so there goes that argument. Let's be honest, whether or not they are the source of the power, they don't physically do a lot during gameplay.

That might be ideal. If that translation could be debunked, hey, great, but as it stands, it shouldn't be ignored.

 

[meleebrawler]

Torna kind of shoots any notion of blades handling fighting solo being inaccurate in the foot.

 

[fogbadge]

Torna kind of shoots any notion of blades handling fighting solo being inaccurate in the foot.

The two of them are hardly accurate to that either

 

[Arthur97]

It's not impossible, but it's not exactly accurate to the core gameplay. Torna was the side story, remember? Even then, they weren't fighting purely on their own. Technically you fought solo blades in the base game, but you didn't play as them. Possible or not, it's simply a poor showing of what the game is. Especially when drivers and blades are actually plot important. If Pyra and Mythra could have just done it all on their own, why didn't they?

And, yes, solo Rex would have not properly portrayed the dynamic either, but gameplay, drivers were the important ones. Even in the story, there are several points (at least four with two of them being almost entire chapters) where Pyra and Mythra aren't there, but Rex is always present. In the final boss, they don't actually say that much.

 

[meleebrawler]

It's not impossible, but it's not exactly accurate to the core gameplay. Torna was the side story, remember? Even then, they weren't fighting purely on their own. Technically you fought solo blades in the base game, but you didn't play as them. Possible or not, it's simply a poor showing of what the game is. Especially when drivers and blades are actually plot important. If Pyra and Mythra could have just done it all on their own, why didn't they?

And, yes, solo Rex would have not properly portrayed the dynamic either, but gameplay, drivers were the important ones. Even in the story, there are several points (at least four with two of them being almost entire chapters) where Pyra and Mythra aren't there, but Rex is always present. In the final boss, they don't actually say that much.

Smash doesn't care how integral or not you are to a game's story. You don't win Smash fights by talking your opponents down through their motivations or providing therapy (you can't tell me Rex wouldn't simply get pasted instantly against something like the final boss instantly on his own, compared to his Aegis friends who, while they'd probably lose on their own as well, could at least put up something resembling a fight). And we just need to accept at this point that being the main character of a game can no longer be considered a free pass to be invited to Smash.

Not that it helps for RPG characters that there's frequent disagreement between how gameplay and story says how things work, even in their own games. Plus some mechanics that are just plain unsuited for competitive action, no matter how much you may wish to reference them, like type matchups in Pokemon, not even Pokken, a dedicated Pokemon game bothered with them. The work that goes into turning things like blade specials from just flashy animations with numbers attached to practical combat moves is hard enough.

 

[AnEasterEgg]

Don't forget Brighid fought (and was defeating) Rex, Pyra, Nia, and Dromarch, while Morag was on another titan.

 

[Arthur97]

Smash doesn't care how integral or not you are to a game's story. You don't win Smash fights by talking your opponents down through their motivations or providing therapy (you can't tell me Rex wouldn't simply get pasted instantly against something like the final boss instantly on his own, compared to his Aegis friends who, while they'd probably lose on their own as well, could at least put up something resembling a fight). And we just need to accept at this point that being the main character of a game can no longer be considered a free pass to be invited to Smash.

Not that it helps for RPG characters that there's frequent disagreement between how gameplay and story says how things work, even in their own games. Plus some mechanics that are just plain unsuited for competitive action, no matter how much you may wish to reference them, like type matchups in Pokemon, not even Pokken, a dedicated Pokemon game bothered with them. The work that goes into turning things like blade specials from just flashy animations with numbers attached to practical combat moves is hard enough.

I mean, most of the time it does seem to matter if you are a protagonist. At least if that's the only showing of the cast, and don't give me the strength argument when Olimar is like an ant, or a literal secretary. If anything, story importance should matter more, cause canonical strength goes out the window. Who is more capable, cyborg ninja, or Snake? Yet they went with the relatively normal solider guy. Roy is hardly the most capable guy in his game, yet here he is. Even being able to fight is largely irrelevant. Villagers anyone? Wii Fit Trainers? Duck Hunt? Rex already had an advantage there in that he could fight. More importantly, he is the main fighter of the team. Standing out seems suspect as, well, the Pokemon Trainers kinda do Pyra and Mythra's main gimmick, but arguably more interestingly since Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are more different from each other.

Don't pretend that it isn't almost exclusively the main protagonist from one offs. Much like Chrom, Rex kinda got screwed. Unlike Chrom, there may have been more to it than movesets if the column is to be believed. At least with Chrom, removing him didn't negatively impact the game's implementation. You could also argue Red wasn't the first choice, but Pikachu is the mascot of the series, so that kinda fills the same void.

And, yes, there are a few instances of solo blades, but they are the exception, not the rule. Why would you make the exception the basis of your Smash fighter?