Revolutionizing Yoshi: Parrying (aka supershielding) NEW VID!!

[ArcNatural]

I don't know if this is too much of a mod, but I definitely think doing this would make parrying much easier for you guys.

Just remove the spring from the shoulder button you shield with. Then make sure the little insert you put the shoulder button into the controller doesn't connect. This should give you a pure analog shield button. You should try it, I think it should help a lot for your timing.

I'm surprised that no one has commented on trying this yet. Seriously, try it lol. No lightshield mess ups.

 

[xbombr]

I'm surprised that no one has commented on trying this yet. Seriously, try it lol. No lightshield mess ups.

Not tourney legal.

 

[YOSHIDO]

I'm really loving this thread. This is great insight on the supershield/ parry mechanism. And good ways to practice, awwsome vid.

 

[Bloshi]

I'm not sure what you mean by "it wouldn't work if Fox messed up his spacing"?

I mean if Fox just waited a bit expecting a supershield, like say he let the nair go a bit later, he would hit the jumping animation and not the invulnerable bit like you want him to. It's not uncommon for people to cross-up attacks or delay attacks if the other guy doesn't do anything when he charges. Also if he decided to uair or bair instead the hitboxes would be different, thus throwing the timing off for hitting the shield button, and same thing.

All's I'm saying is that it can definitely get mindgames'd with small, generally safe adjustments on the opponent's part. But you're right to some extent. When people approach they generally commit to that approach, and so you should be able to do it right with reasonable success. This is why it works so well on Ganonmahboi and Marf, because their approaches aren't particularly fast or changeable on the fly, just ranged and abusable, which means getting the parry off becomes easier. Just watch out for those fast ****ers that can change their approach at the last second just because they can!

Supershielding is still great though. It's another option for Yoshi, and a defensive one at that, which is sorely needed for the lovable guy.

 

[ArcNatural]

Not tourney legal.

Plenty of people do it, not tourney legal is not true.

 

[Mind Trick]

Sounds like it would help this specific technique a lot... but Im a bit hesitant on possibly destroying the controller that has served me for the last 7 years or so
My controller is pretty much perfect except for the stiffness of the shoulder buttons, it makes it really hard for me to get the timing down on parry. What do you mean with completely analog? Can you still light shield with it?

 

[xbombr]

Plenty of people do it, not tourney legal is not true.

Could have sworn that anything beyond purely aesthetic mods (Especially trigger mods) was banned by most TO's. Sure it's hard to enforce, but that doesn't make it legal.

 

[Mushinronsha]

I'm pretty sure xbombr is right; controller mods can only be aesthetic. And I'm sure Yoshi's parrying can still be perfected over time on a normal controller. It's just another thing to get used to.

 

[SheerMadness]

The spring doesn't make parrying any harder for me.

 

[yoshiiscool]

Well, I think this technique is pretty useless. I mean, it's cool and all, and it's relatively easy to do(after about a half hour of practicing, I can do all the OoS stuff), but implementing it safely is the biggest problem. Safely being the key word there. There's just too small a window for this to be useful, especially considering that missing this when trying to dodge an attack will lead to being punished a lot of the time. You would need godlike timing and ****in clairvoyance to pull stuff like this off enough for it to be useful. I'll try giving it a shot and using it in some real matches over the weekend, but... it just seems too situational. Also, about using it EVERY time we jump or wavedash or anything, is just silly... Yoshi's slow enough as it is, he doesn't need extra frames on the ground making him have a bowser wavedash.

Also, I don't mean to go against people,(though I seem to do that a lot here on the Yoshi boards) but your video... really wasn't that impressive. All you did was react to the fox getting close to you, and sometimes he'd just jump right over your head, or run through you while you grabbed or DJCd something. What was it really supposed to show, because to me it said "look at how situational this is, and how badly I could get punished for messing up."

Some tips to those crazy enough to try this, I suppose there's a few things you should know, so you don't just get pissed and give up. Yoshi's hitboxes are pretty funny, in that he ducks back into his egg shield. So... in other words, it is **** near impossible to supershield something that is going for your head when you're standing up. So, just know about Yoshi's body in relation to where his shield comes up (Crouching is normally your best bet, though for some reason, I tend to have success with dash-ins too) And for the timing of actually canceling the shield, I just think of it as a reverse wavedash Also, it's easier to use the opposite button you're used to using for wavedashing, if you wanna be able to wavedash out with relative success, since you can then alternate triggers to shield, then jump, then wavedash.

Overall, **** this though. I was hoping this would just be a fad for the yoshi boards, and eventually die out, but oh well, never expected that I'd be the conservative Yoshi guy xD.

 

[Shiri]

Hmm.

I am just realizing how many people have clearly never used this or bothered to learn it even after the information was made blatantly public like four years ago.

 

[Mushinronsha]

@yoshiiscool
I totally understand where you're coming from -- you're trying to be as realistic as possible so that people aren't mislead into an ENORMOUS waste of time. However, considering Yoshi's standings in tiers, tournaments, players' conceptions, etc., what is there to lose? If there are truly dedicated players who are going to take this tech (or any others) and try to do some serious stuff with it, we shouldn't discourage that. Maybe it's not going to change anything, but if there's even a chance that after 10 years of this game something can change for a character, why not break new ground and experiment?

 

[DstyCube]

I thought it was great video. There's nothing wrong with adding more to your tech-repertoire, it will just give you more options to choose from. I don't believe that you should use it ALL the time (replace shielding with supershielding,) but it definitely has its uses. I don't think me being able to reflect samus missiles whenever I want is a necessary skill, but I'm glad that I can do it.

Generally I would prefer to not be caught in a situation where I'd have to use super shielding or become reliant on it. I'm still working on my own game, but I have used supershielding (on accident) to get out of some combos where there is just no time to do anything else.

 

[SheerMadness]

Pretty synical yoshiiscool!

Perhaps you need to watch some Yoshi ssb64 vids to truely see how useful parrying can be. It's just as hard to do in ssb64 but you have multiple Yoshi players (including me) who can parry with great success in real matches. Heres a short clip of me parrying 3 jabs in a row against one of the top ssb64 Fox players which led from him killing me to me killing him because of parries:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IE7rJNuSTA

Heres a vid of the top ssb64 Yoshi player :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPRh1maGnMc

I know you're thinking ssb64 is not melee but I can honestly tell you its not any harder parrying in melee than ssb64.

 

[yoshiiscool]

@Shiri - I'm assuming you're talking about me, and I can honestly say, 4 years ago this tactic didn't seem necessary to me, and I already sucked bad enough normally to be worrying about some hardcore techs like this. So, again, I was just kinda hoping it would die out and that Yoshi players wouldn't have to rely on this to be considered good. I'm only actually entertaining the thought of using this now, as it seems that people will be taking it seriously, and I feel my skills with Yoshi are good enough so that focusing some energy into this won't harm the game I already have with him.

@Mushin - I'm not trying to discourage anybody from doing this, I even gave some tips to help the people that would like to use this. What I am doing is just providing the devil's advocate, like mister Bloshi, and letting people know there are disadvantages to this technique, and it takes a pretty insane amount of skill other than just timing.

@Sheer - I don't think any less of 64, I've actually had a few friends get into it, so I've also dabbled here and there with the game. You're very impressive at 64, I watched other videos that I found since I'm more skeptical about use in-match that doesn't rely on luck. I'm not trying to talk badly about your skill, I'm just looking for situations where human reaction alone, can provide for an efficient use of this tech. Supershielding a jab seems like lucky input to me, rather than something you truly reacted to, and managed to time. The reason why I want something that is managable with human reaction is because things like a jab, or a fox n-air/u-smash can be varied so much on timing, that getting a supershield off of the attacks, I would just consider luck, and implausible to rely on. I'd love to be proved wrong though, and since you seem to be comfortable with the technique, you're prolly the best person to go against my opinion. Get some melee match vids up ^^.

 

[Bloshi]

TN Yoshis are so cynical.

 

[YOSHIDO]

Lol I rembered that old thread shiri. But I know with atleast me I rarely practiced the techinque and never really commited it to my game besides not getting grabbed. Like i said i guess I like the easy made on the go vid showcase applications. Lol I remmeber you being quite hype when it was found out. The same goes for that rapid powersheilding.

 

[Bloshi]

A side effect of the supershield: if the enemy charges you and you go in your shield (the normal shield) out of reflex and they attempt a grab, it will miss, and your enemy will say WTF, giving you time to roll away and not fall for it again.

 

[Shiri]

Moo, if I was talking specifically to you, I would have said, "Moo, I'm talking to you."

I was speaking of the general membership.

I don't play children's word games; I try to be as transparent as possible.

 

[Lordydennek]

Not that my opinion matters or anything, but I can never consistently do this. I get it once out of like 5 matches on a good day. Given i am just now trying to put it into my game, but still it seems really hard to do as a reaction. the only time i use it is against an obvious cfalcon knee. and after i get it im too excited that i got it to follow up....... so idk. i guess ill practice it more and see where it goes.

 

[Shiri]

Dennek, that's a pretty good place to start if you're intent on actually using this technique.

Like most fighting game stuff (for me, at least), whenever I am learning a new technique that is very dependent on timing, I learn how to improve the timing by starting with the most blatant situations possible that yield the largest margin of error. Once you get that down, you continue on to less and less forgiving situations. It's a process, I think.

Once you actually get the timing, being able to react is both a reflex and an effort of knowing the player you're fighting and considering both the player's playstyle and the character's playstyle. Supershielding is a great punisher, especially for people who are just spamming you because they either don't know the matchup or feel that effort isn't necessary.

 

[Lordydennek]

well my yoshi's worst matchup is against cfalcon... even worse than sheik... that knee just...well you know. I will say that the technique is pretty awesome when done, but its a ***** to get it.

 

[SheerMadness]

I played a lot of Yoshi on saturday. I can fairly consistently consistently parry vs some of the best players in Florida. I still suck with Yoshi though so I get wrecked a lot lol.

I'll try to record some matches soon. That way you guys can see me parry AND most of all critique my Yoshi because it needs it!

 

[DstyCube]

well my yoshi's worst matchup is against cfalcon... even worse than sheik... that knee just...well you know. I will say that the technique is pretty awesome when done, but its a ***** to get it.

"Don't get hit."

 

[Lordydennek]

"Don't get hit."

thanks Isiah...

 

[-Sinister-]

Isiah

Isai - fixed....scrub

 

[yoshiiscool]

So... This is pretty good. I honestly never thought I'd become very good with it, but the more I practice it, and look for places to use it, the more second-nature, and simpler it's becoming. I really like this, and I'm using it a lot more, but now I'm coming to the point in using it where I'm questioning what to do from it, so I was wondering what you guys all think about Yoshi out of shield options.


I'm trying to look for some of the quickest, most efficient ways to punish out of shield for Yoshi, and I've had some pretty decent ideas, just gonna run some of them by you guys to see what you all think.

I'll start everyone off with some basic frame data: Yoshi's jump has a 5 frame start up, his n-air hits on the 3rd frame, his u-air hits on the 5th frame, his u-smash hits on the 11th frame, d-smash on the 6th frame, u-tilt 8th frame, f-tilt 6th frame. I list all of those because they're what I deem as the best possibilities to use out of shield, as they will be the best, and quickest options to either lead to combos and/or edgeguarding situations.

As all of you should know, Yoshi has a property of his double jump to make him descend for awhile at first, making it possible to do what we call a double jump land. We also know that Yoshi's shield-dropping animation is slightly longer than everyone elses, so my question is this (kinda posing this to you Shiri, as you're the yoshi mechanics guy) would it be quicker if we DJL after a supershield to do a grounded attack, or if we just drop our shield regularly, since there's no shield stun? I'm just looking for some frame data on the DJL to prove my thoughts on it being faster than just a regular shield-drop. Anyways, whichever one is faster will be there to set up for most likely a f-tilt or d-smash, as those are Yoshi's fastest ground attacks other than the jab, which would be kinda useless. Obviously use f-tilt for comboing, and d-smash for power.

Now comes another hard part, what is the absolute fastest way to punish out of a supershield? Yoshi has some quick aerials, and a relatively slow u-smash, but the u-smash can come out almost instantly out of the supershield being jumpcanceled, whereas a n-air or u-air has to wait for the 5 frame jump to go, and as all Yoshi players know, you must wait awhile before attacking to give yourself a bit height to be able to DJC the attacks well. In my opinion, factoring in human timing, we won't be able to do consistently perfect n-airs, or u-airs, so the u-smash is the quickest way we can punish out of our supershield, but that's just my opinion. I'm a little sad to say this though, because the u-smash is probably the least effective thing we have for punishing, and I would much rather take the risk of u-airing at low%s to try to get into a combo, rather than going for an u-smash which would possibly lead to a tech chase at best. (Also something to note is that a quick djc n-air at low%s just pushes the opponent away slightly, without making them fall, so you can normally get a dash grab out of it hehe.)

So yea, questions, comments? What do you guys think of the most effective way for Yoshi to actually punish after using this tech? Btw, I'm looking for the fastest ways because most of what I supershield, is approaching aerials, because it's easy to crouch supershield against them, so I've had the most luck crouch supershielding an approaching fox/falco into a JCu-smash. Obviously the quicker the supershielded attack is, the quicker we have to be to punish, or it'll all be for naught that we successfully supershielded in the first place.


Also supershielding projectiles into JCeggs is ****in cool >.>

Peace~

 

[Dr Peepee]

So... This is pretty good. I honestly never thought I'd become very good with it, but the more I practice it, and look for places to use it, the more second-nature, and simpler it's becoming. I really like this, and I'm using it a lot more, but now I'm coming to the point in using it where I'm questioning what to do from it, so I was wondering what you guys all think about Yoshi out of shield options.


I'm trying to look for some of the quickest, most efficient ways to punish out of shield for Yoshi, and I've had some pretty decent ideas, just gonna run some of them by you guys to see what you all think.

I'll start everyone off with some basic frame data: Yoshi's jump has a 5 frame start up, his n-air hits on the 3rd frame, his u-air hits on the 5th frame, his u-smash hits on the 11th frame, d-smash on the 6th frame, u-tilt 8th frame, f-tilt 6th frame. I list all of those because they're what I deem as the best possibilities to use out of shield, as they will be the best, and quickest options to either lead to combos and/or edgeguarding situations.

As all of you should know, Yoshi has a property of his double jump to make him descend for awhile at first, making it possible to do what we call a double jump land. We also know that Yoshi's shield-dropping animation is slightly longer than everyone elses, so my question is this (kinda posing this to you Shiri, as you're the yoshi mechanics guy) would it be quicker if we DJL after a supershield to do a grounded attack, or if we just drop our shield regularly, since there's no shield stun? I'm just looking for some frame data on the DJL to prove my thoughts on it being faster than just a regular shield-drop. Anyways, whichever one is faster will be there to set up for most likely a f-tilt or d-smash, as those are Yoshi's fastest ground attacks other than the jab, which would be kinda useless. Obviously use f-tilt for comboing, and d-smash for power.

Now comes another hard part, what is the absolute fastest way to punish out of a supershield? Yoshi has some quick aerials, and a relatively slow u-smash, but the u-smash can come out almost instantly out of the supershield being jumpcanceled, whereas a n-air or u-air has to wait for the 5 frame jump to go, and as all Yoshi players know, you must wait awhile before attacking to give yourself a bit height to be able to DJC the attacks well. In my opinion, factoring in human timing, we won't be able to do consistently perfect n-airs, or u-airs, so the u-smash is the quickest way we can punish out of our supershield, but that's just my opinion. I'm a little sad to say this though, because the u-smash is probably the least effective thing we have for punishing, and I would much rather take the risk of u-airing at low%s to try to get into a combo, rather than going for an u-smash which would possibly lead to a tech chase at best. (Also something to note is that a quick djc n-air at low%s just pushes the opponent away slightly, without making them fall, so you can normally get a dash grab out of it hehe.)

So yea, questions, comments? What do you guys think of the most effective way for Yoshi to actually punish after using this tech? Btw, I'm looking for the fastest ways because most of what I supershield, is approaching aerials, because it's easy to crouch supershield against them, so I've had the most luck crouch supershielding an approaching fox/falco into a JCu-smash. Obviously the quicker the supershielded attack is, the quicker we have to be to punish, or it'll all be for naught that we successfully supershielded in the first place.


Also supershielding projectiles into JCeggs is ****in cool >.>

Peace~

Yoshiiscool for best Yoshi.

 

[skrach8]

lets see some tech vids with yoshi. UNLEASH HIS POTENTIAL... I LOVE THIS GAME!

 

[Bloshi]

Wow Yoshiiscool ahd a pretty quick change of heart there. Has he been practicing against someone?

Naw mang usmash is good at low percentages. Leads to combos pretty well.

I normally just drop my shield if I get the supershield off. Its easier than having to jump out by a good stretch.

I need to practice -.-

 

[Shiri]

Bloshiiiiiiiiiiiiii you should really jump outttttttttt~ :D

P.S. - Moo, good stuff. I forget off the top of my head the shield drop for Yoshi (I think it's the same as everyone else, actually), but I don't think you're too far off with DJL being faster. I think even Peach's DJL out of shield is faster than dropping (and most definitely faster than wavedashing out). Upsmash is great out of supershield, but it really depends on the character. For kids like Falco and Fox, you would want the quickest possible option like upsmash (you get cool invulnerability, too), but for characters that are comboable, you would want a launcher or the most combo friendly move. For characters that you can't grab, but can **** when you do, supershieldgrab is a not-so-terrible option. I think it really varies almost exclusively on the character you're playing against.

P.P.S. - Wow @ supershield to JC egg, LOL. This is why people need to supershield more. :D

P.P.P.S. - I should really get back on my grind; I used to have this entire game memorized in terms of numbers. >_<

 

[SheerMadness]

Haha yoshiiscool went from saying parrying is completely useless to making a giant post about how excited he is about it's potential. (sorry guys im gonna keep calling it parrying since I'm a ssb64 player)

I'd recommend djc'ing nairing as your best parrying option in most cases. It comes out extremely quickly and is way less punishable than upsmash and grab if you miss.

As displayed in my video if you parry an approaching aerial a DJC'ed nair will almost always be fast enough to punish them.

 

[Lordydennek]

Wake up yoshi thread. where's the activity...

 

[DstyCube]

... midterms.

 

[Lordydennek]

lolz true. I just finished mine! sorry guys..

 

[Mind Trick]

yeah I'm bringing this back up

So I'm kinda back on getting my Yoshi tech skill back, thinking of being one character guy again. Practising this in training mode I finally realised (took me long enough lololol) that you can only do it when you full shield, you should definitely mention that somewhere in the first post xD I am finally consistent with it, now only to learn to time it against people.
EDIT: Shiri already covered this lol after reading the thread again, it didn't stick with me though xD

It might be a idea to have one shoulder button for light shield and the other for full shield, powershield, parry. It helps to hold it down halfway before you plug in your controller, so there's no lightshield possible. The only minor drawback is switching between the 2 modes while already in shield is one action more, but shouldnt be too hard getting used to. It makes powershielding a ton easier as well imo.

Another thing made much easier with using two shoulder buttons is trying parry before every potentailly dangerous wavedash, although you'd be getting like 2x fox apm, perhaps only possible in theory to get that technical consistent. I'll be definitely putting the work in though.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Wavedashing out of parry sounds so sexy.

It makes sense that only the full analog shield triggers parries, since it's the same deal for power shielding.

 

[SheerMadness]

Hmmm parry wavedashes...

I have no idea if that would work and what it would look like lol. I'll try it right now vs computer falco lasers.

I still parry all the time in matches. I think my Yoshi is getting better too. Hopefully I can get some vids up one day.

 

[SheerMadness]

I tried to parry wavedash for 5-10 minutes and couldn't do it. Mainly because I'm too used to only using the L button and now I have to incorporate R which feels weird.

It seems like it would be possible but who knows. I'm quite curious to see what it would look like too.

 

[skrach8]

lets see some matches!