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Revolutionizing Yoshi: Parrying (aka supershielding) NEW VID!!

SheerMadness

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EDIT UPDATE NEW VIDEO!!

Heres a video of me practicing parries against a real player. The video is real time against a real person, no editing and its not TAS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVLRJ4jCBeI

Best ones start around 0:23. They include me jump and grab parrying. Some of the jump parries include me countering with DJC nair.




I'm a ssb64 Yoshi player and I have a unique knowledge of parrying, or what the melee Yoshi boards have coined as "supershielding". The ssb64 community calls it parrying so excuse me if I call it that instead. Judging by the only info I found on "supershielding" thus far it leads me to believe most Yoshi melee players don't really understand how its done or why it's useful. Here's a visual example of parrying in melee:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGd_MPsAsvc

Here's some examples in ssb64 just to prove to you guys I'm not talking out of my hat lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEUW9cMOjhE

I parry at .58, 2:52, and 4:10.

The basics behind parrying

In melee, there is a small window between when you input Yoshi's shield and when it actually comes up. During this window Yoshi is invincible, esentially the same as the invinicibility frames you get when right when you spawn a new stock.

The key here is that during this time you can actually jump and upsmash unlike when his real shield comes up. If you time this window correctly against your opponents attacks you can absorb their attacks and counter with your own at the same time, like shown in the videos above. There are 4 types of parries:

Regular parry - when you quickly tap shield and yoshi bobs his head

Jump parry - when you hit shield and jump at the same time (example in melee and ssb64 vid)

Grab parry - when you hit shield and grab at the same time (example in ssb64 vid)

Upsmash parry - when you hit shield and upsmash at the same time (example in melee vid)


Now while the window to execute a parry is very small (not sure about melee yet but probably 3-6 frames) it is very possible to execute at a high to perfect % rate.

This is the most important part of the thread so read carefully

Every Yoshi player in the world should ALWAYS parry when they jump, grab, or upsmash. Why? Because theres absolutely no drawback, the worst possible thing that could happen is you parry an attack which is obviously a plus. It's not hard either. All you have to do is hit input shield the same time you jump, grab, or upsmash. And doing so will very likely lead to ATEAST several unintentional parries a game, which very well could be gamechanging.

But I'd also recommend practicing intentional parries too! Post here if you have any questions about parrying!
 

darkgirku

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Thanks a lot for this sheer

You know, me and my brothers have been fascinated with yoshi for quite some time now, and one of us has an incredibly good yoshi. I'm even trying to second the lil guy xD

And as for your advice on always parrying before a jump/grab/Upsmash, we will start trying/practicing that at once ;)
 

SheerMadness

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And as for your advice on always parrying before a jump/grab/Upsmash, we will start trying/practicing that at once
Not before. All you have to do is hit shield the same time you ever jump/grab/upsmash. =]
 

Mind Trick

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Ive been trying for some time now to implement intentional parry into my playstyle against the likes of Ganon and Marth, but never even thought about always trying to use it before jumping, it sounds like something really usefull to make second nature, good **** to you sir.

I'm still working a bit on the timing for that, but is it true if you jc your shielding animation, you don't actually see your shield? And that it's kind of hard to notice if you're doing it right because of similiar animation of shielding and jumping (ducking to the ground) or am I just doing it completely wrong? :p

For grab I think I still prefer dash grab, you might get lucky and get a parry but most of the time a dash grab is much better and not as easily punished if you miss.
 

SheerMadness

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Yes it is hard to notice if you're doing it right since the shield doesn't come up. Just make sure to hit shield and jump/grab/upsmash at exactly the same time and you'll know you're doing it right.

A parry grab is no different than a dash grab. In essence, a parry grab is simply the addition of inputing the shield button at the same time you input the grab. So no, you don't have to stop dash grabbing. Just make sure you input shield at the same time you dash grab.
 

Mind Trick

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Are you sure it still has the properties of parry then?

I think the moment you activate shield it cancels your dash, so you will always do a standing shieldgrab. I think your inputting grab like 1/30 of a second or so before the shield, so it will have no properties of supershield/parry (which isn't that usefull for grabs imo).

For jcing the shielding animation I agree though you have to aim for about the same time of input, because having an interval of 2 frames between two inputs sounds really hard to time.
 

SheerMadness

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At the same time I mean the same motion. Shield does have to be input before jump/grab/upsmash.
 

DstyCube

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Why? Because theres absolutely no drawback, the worst possible thing that could happen is you parry an attack which is obviously a plus.
Worst possible thing is you mess it up and get trapped in your shield lol. The drawbacks in melee are bigger than in 64 since yoshi could still jump oos if you dont time it right.

I think the moment you activate shield it cancels your dash, so you will always do a standing shieldgrab.
This ^^

It's too gimmicky imo. But if you want to practice it, turn your background music off and turn up your tv volume. You can hear the shield come up if you did it right.
 

SheerMadness

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It's too gimmicky imo. But if you want to practice it, turn your background music off and turn up your tv volume. You can hear the shield come up if you did it right.
Cool, thanks. I know you can hear the shield noise in ssb64 if you do it right but I haven't heard it in melee. Probably because, like you said, the music.

Haha and you're right getting caught in your shield is the worst scenario. Although it's not the least bit difficult to hit shield a frame or 2 before you jump so you really shouldn't be getting caught in your shield much.

Doesn't seem gimmicky to me. Especially since I've been parrying for 3 years in ssb64. The potential of completely countering an attack every time you jump/grab/upsmash easily outweights any negatives IMO. And thats just unintentional parrying. When you get to the point of being able to intentionally parry any attack or projectile, I can tell you from experience that it's absolutely game changing. If you don't believe me watch some of my ssb64 vids or ask the people I play against.

Anyway I'll certainly be practicing melee parries, hopefully some of you will join me!
 

Nogzor'z

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Wow... i never thought about just hitting shield before those actions mentioned.

I have always told myself that supershield was too technical for me to implement and that my hand'z weren't fast enough., but now I'm thinking, with some practice, It'z completely possibly.
(Beware WereTiger! Im gonna destroy you even harder with yoshi now)
 

D1

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Olded...I posted a video about this on my youtube as well and I remember me and Shiri getting mad hype about it and sharing this on SWF.

Good to bring up again for the new players though, much appreciated <3.
 

SheerMadness

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Tru I figured most serious Yoshi's had seen the Fumi video before. But I also figured 99% of the Yoshi population either didn't understand what is was, didn't know how to do it, or how to incorporate it in their game.
 

Lordydennek

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ok I watched the vids and read how to do it. still makes no sense to me.... ugh. do you hit sheild all the way down or just lightshield? cuz everytime i do it he just jumps or sheilds and the usmash never comes out
 

DstyCube

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It doesn't matter if what type of shielding you do. You are canceling the shield before it ever comes out. The timing is pretty strict, you just got to make sure you do everything in the right order. I think it's easiest right as you shield to jump cancel with the control stick, and jam up the c-stick at the same time.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: You have to full shield it. This doesn't work out of lightshielding.
 

SheerMadness

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Yah you have to full shield. And you want input the jump as fast as possible after you input shield. While I'm technially jumping a frame or 2 after I hit shield it really feels like I'm hitting them at the same time, thats how fast you need to do it.
 

Bloshi

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I intentionally supershield stuff occasionally. I don't jump out though because I don't have the timing, so I generally just unshield and hit them with something fast. So I guess I'm not using it to its full potential, but supershield doesn't give shield stun so it's still better than normal shielding the hit.

I put up a video a long time ago of supershieldgrabbing. Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M0rLomJK1Q I am doing this by myself so I would input on one controller and quickly grab the other to supershield, so I could only do simple things. However stuff like Ganon's fair and Falcon's dair are entirely possible to see coming and react to, although for falcon it would have to be an usmash since the situation is NEVER that he's coming down on top of you.

As for implementing it out of habit, I thought of it last summer, but I am too lazy to practice seriously. Last time I practiced seriously by myself just me and the cube was over 3 years ago.
 

DstyCube

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Not at all lol, I just don't recall anything about having to full shield in any of the previous posts on it. This is actually really helpful as to why I thought I had the timing, but it would never work (I figured if you light shielding is faster so it would be more precise than having to full shield.)
 

SheerMadness

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So I was playing with some friends today and was parrying quite a bit. It really doesn't seem any harder than ssb64 to intentionally utilize in a match. I was jump parrying Falco's dair into a DJC'ed nair like 75% of the time. I can parry his lasers and most other projectiles in the game really well too. I'm just not very good with everything else about Yoshi yet since I just started playing him haha.
 

Mind Trick

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I just realised you can do this before wavedash as well... lol (ugggh have to learn to use both R and L)
It's really hard for me to add it in though, I've been doing it about 10 min a day and still find myself not doing it in matches against other players :p

It's like... learning Yoshi all over again because of that extra input.
 

ArcNatural

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I don't know if this is too much of a mod, but I definitely think doing this would make parrying much easier for you guys.

Just remove the spring from the shoulder button you shield with. Then make sure the little insert you put the shoulder button into the controller doesn't connect. This should give you a pure analog shield button. You should try it, I think it should help a lot for your timing.
 

Shiri

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Not at all lol, I just don't recall anything about having to full shield in any of the previous posts on it. This is actually really helpful as to why I thought I had the timing, but it would never work (I figured if you light shielding is faster so it would be more precise than having to full shield.)
:yoshi: Is it really not in the Project thread?

I remember that being one of the first things I talked to D1 about because it's so major. o_o;

(also tell your friend to hit the dair later and you have no chance to use djc nair :p)
Yes.

Well.

If they down air shine, the jump may come out before the shine, the shine would stop the jump, and then you could neutral. You would have to wait to input your neutral after the shine, though, making the timing extremely janky and gimmicky.

P.S. - Wow, it really WASN'T in the Project thread, so I went ahead and updated it. Anybody feel like finishing my and D1's research on rapid powershielding? :D
 

DstyCube

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I love gimmicks.

My knowledge of rapid power shielding is as follows:

1.) Dodge out of dash
2.) Hold shield
3.) ???
4.) Profit!

Honestly I have no idea how it works, sometimes I randomly get a power shield even if I don't do the dodge out of dash thing... I don't understand it at all.

It's like... learning Yoshi all over again because of that extra input.
Oh noes your yoshi is so good! Don't do that! lol
 

SheerMadness

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If they down air shine, the jump may come out before the shine, the shine would stop the jump, and then you could neutral. You would have to wait to input your neutral after the shine, though, making the timing extremely janky and gimmicky.
Trust me its not a gimmick. I don't play with noobs haha. If any of you know who Colbol is, hes been in my crew for 4 years and is insanely good with any character and I was parrying his Falco's dairs into a DJC nair. So it's not like I'm doing this against people who don't know what they're doing...

I made a video last night too. Hopefully my friend will put it up today. It's just a 1-2 minute practice session of my friend running at me with Fox nairs/upsmashes and me attempting to parry them. It will be an uedited clip so it will give you a good idea of how practical parrying actually is since it shows my success rate.
 

Mind Trick

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Trust me its not a gimmick. I don't play with noobs haha. If any of you know who Colbol is, hes been in my crew for 4 years and is insanely good with any character and I was parrying his Falco's dairs into a DJC nair. So it's not like I'm doing this against people who don't know what they're doing...

I made a video last night too. Hopefully my friend will put it up today. It's just a 1-2 minute practice session of my friend running at me with Fox nairs/upsmashes and me attempting to parry them. It will be an uedited clip so it will give you a good idea of how practical parrying actually is since it shows my success rate.
Sorry I doubted you... if you can do that **** against a player like Colbol you might just be my new Yoshi god :D
(*back to practise :lick:*)
 

SheerMadness

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Haha I might be a god at parrying but my Yoshi is probably one of the worst Yoshis on here. I just picked him up and I'm still awful! Hopefully vid will be up by tonight.
 

SheerMadness

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Thanks Garb, much appreciated! Like Garb said the best ones start around 0:23 but I'd recommend watching the whole vid as a good example of my success rate.

I grab and jump parry in the video. Some of the jump parries I counter with DJC nair.
 

Bloshi

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I noticed in the video that it wouldn't work entirely if fox just messed up the spacing a little bit. You really have to see the attack coming and know exactly where I suppose. But it is still useful. And the second nature thing is still valid.
 

SheerMadness

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I'm not sure what you mean by "it wouldn't work if Fox messed up his spacing"?

The beauty of parrying is how instantaneous it is. You can input shield the exact frame you're hit and it will still parry. Yes it is easier to parry if they're attacking very predictably but if you have decent reactions you should be able to see their move and parry it no matter how close they are.

People who know how well I parry in ssb64 try to bait my parries and they get me with it a lot. But if you get baited you just DJC a nair or something and since its so fast you can usually recover in time before they approach again.

It's really not tht hard to intentionally parry in matches. it just takes A LOT of practice since the timing window is so small. Only reason I can parry like that is because I've been parrying in ssb64 for 4 years.
 

t3h Icy

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I honestly think Yoshi has the most potential still out of all the characters. He has a lot of gimmicks and uniqueness to his playstyle, and he has several Yoshi-only ATs.

I picked up Yoshi recently as a tertiary and he's a blast to play.

Sheer, get Yoshi up to Low Tier plzkthx.
 
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