Retrospectives and Introspectives: A Look Back at the Nintendo Wii

[Delta-cod]

I dunno, I played a couple levels of it at a Gamestop station one time and didn't have any real difficulty playing it outside of not knowing the controls initially (I was already in some level/world that assumed I knew the controls).

 

[Dre89]

DK64 was the best platformer on N64 but sadly Nintendo had to go and sell Rareware who were then turned to faeces by Microsoft.

Edit: Also creepy/disturbing is not the same as scary.

DK64 being the best 64 platformer is pretty contentious. It still has competition from SM64 and the Banjos.

DK64 is my favourite but I understand the difference between personal value and objective grading.

If we had to pick one, SM64 is probably the most iconic.

 

[Teran]

GoldenEye was the most iconic FPS on N64 that didn't make it the best.

Final Fantasy is the most iconic RPG series, doesn't make it the best.

 

[Dre89]

I never said that being iconic makes it the best.

In fact, I specifically avoid saying a game is the best because it's subjective.

However you try define what constitutes being 'the best' is probably just something you value personally.

It's like music elitists who think that more creative/sophisticated music is objectively better than Brittney Spears simply because it has those traits. They're simply putting what they personally value (sophistication) into the term 'better'.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I don't mind DK being basically worse than Diddy because that means when playing with another the better player can handle DK and the weaker player can have Diddy. To me that balances it out generally. The controls also never bothered me.


And why are people talking about video games like some are the best as if there is indeed an objective method of measuring them. Any methodology of selecting a game as best or better than another would be arbitrary.

 

[Dre89]

Or they can be balanced out so that you're not forced into giving Diddy to the weaker player and you can chose on preference.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I'm not saying what I said is better (I'm not saying what you're saying is better either). I'm just saying I can appreciate what that allowed for me, my brother (a more casual gamer) got to use Diddy while I got to play a slightly harder game by using DK. It was perfect for us really.

 

[Falconv1.0]

If my gimmick is the guy who is mad all the time is Dre's gimmick "guy who disagrees with everyone"? Or is he that genuinely awful? Someone please help me on this I am very easily confused.

On a related note, hey Teran the world being destroyed isn't dark cuz Bowser would do it. You know, because that's been a primary motive of his character over the years, not kidnapping Peach or anything like that.

 

[Luigitoilet]

If my gimmick is the guy who is mad all the time is Dre's gimmick "guy who disagrees with everyone"?

That is accurate. Dre. is very much "about" being contrary.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Christopher Hitchens without the Hitchslaps.

Then again, most people like to be contrary a lot of the time. Kind of like you Falcon.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I'm pretty sure Dre tried to start arguing with me about how I need to not be angry during a game discussion because African babies are starving or something. I feel like that's all the context I need to give as to why I take offense to you saying "kind of like you, Falcon."

I disagree with people on things because I'm an angry miserable spyface screaming at your soul. Dre disagrees with people because doubting evolution is fun.

Oh hey I don't think the Moon is scary! It's clearly meant to be creepy because the inside of it creeped me out more! I disagree with your takes on things that may be symbolic and thus it is not that artistic! I am Dre and my posts make your soul hurt!

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I'm pretty sure Dre tried to start arguing with me about how I need to not be angry during a game discussion because African babies are starving or something. I feel like that's all the context I need to give as to why I take offense to you saying "kind of like you, Falcon."

I disagree with people on things because I'm an angry miserable spyface screaming at your soul. Dre disagrees with people because doubting evolution is fun.

Oh no no no, I didn't mean you are like that for the same reasons or in the same ways he is, that's why I said "kind of". If your shtick is to be angry, than more often than not, you're going to be contrary more than the average poster is all.

Also, I laughed at the African baby reference, that rings a bell or two, I was either posting in that or watching. XD

 

[Dre89]

Holder- Thing is though, if you wanted a challenge you just play a Kong and not use some of their traits eg. not using Diddy's jet barrel. I think by balancing out their traits, you give more versaitility. For one, you're not forced to pick a certain character, but you could still impose restrictions upon yourself for a challenge if you wanted to. It would also make the gameplay slightly different depending on which Kong who use (although I guess it's already like that).

Falcon- I specifically mentioned Bowser and Eggman, because both those characters have in fact attempted to destroy the world before.


Destroying the world itself isn't a dark gaming concept, it has been used in non-dark games plenty of times. It's the art style that makes it dark.

I'm pretty sure Dre tried to start arguing with me about how I need to not be angry during a game discussion because African babies are starving or something. I feel like that's all the context I need to give as to why I take offense to you saying "kind of like you, Falcon."

I disagree with people on things because I'm an angry miserable spyface screaming at your soul. Dre disagrees with people because doubting evolution is fun.

Oh hey I don't think the Moon is scary! It's clearly meant to be creepy because the inside of it creeped me out more! I disagree with your takes on things that may be symbolic and thus it is not that artistic! I am Dre and my posts make your soul hurt!

I don't doubt evolution....

I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as anyone else here is. I should be able to state it without having my character criticised.

I never said no problems are real except for those in Africa. What I said is that getting fired up and behaving aggressively in a video game debate is incredibly trivial when you have debated issues that genuinely matter in the world.

I just think it's silly that people get more angry and aggressive over a (perceived) ignorant opinion about video games than what civil people do over ignorant opinions on issues that actually matter in the world. If a person can remain civil when dealing with an opinion such as "women deserved to be *****" etc. then there is no excuse for aggressive behaviour over video games. People use ignorance as a justification for aggression, but it's really just an excuse for immaturity and poor composure.

And I never said X was objectively scary, I specifically stated it was my personal perspective. In fact my whole point is that what's 'better' is subjective, so I don't see where you're getting "I'm Dre and I think X is better than Y and you're all wrong!" from.

And even if I did state that X is objectively better than Y, how is that any different to what Teran did? Teran flat out said DK64 is the best platformer on the 64.

So when Teran makes an objective claim that's ok, but if I make one that you disagree with all of a sudden I'm a jerk who thinks he's always right?

 

[Big-Cat]

But it's the art style of the moon that's disturbing, not that actual concept of the moon itself being a weapon. To be honest I was never creeped out by the moon at all as kid. I was legitimately scared of redeads and gibdos though, but that's because I had nightmare about them killing my family. Couldn't play a Zelda game for like 2 years after that.

Redeads used to creep me out, so I usually just hacked at them until they died. The cutscene where you enter the Royal Tomb was scary due to the lighting and for some reason, the Moblins in the maze scared me as a kid where I had to use a Gameshark to warp behind them. It wasn't until a year or so ago that I properly beat it albeit on Virtual Console.

Now the games that I still find creepy/scary in a good way are Metroid Fusion, Prime, and Prime 2. The first two Prime games had that desolate feel and you felt like an enemy came out nowhere and there was a sense of creepiness thanks to the general atmosphere. Fusion cranked it up with the SA-X providing a rather cool survival horror element to the series. Zero Mission then went for a stealth element at the end as well. Heck, the more I think about it, the Metroid series could use more horror elements or at least a strong sense of urgency.

 

[Dre89]

I found out later that if you walk (as in actually walk, not run) past redeads they won't attack you.

 

[Luco]

One game that shouldn't creep me out but still does because of some regrettable childhood experiences is that final fight with Bowser on Yoshi's island lol. He just comes out of the darkness and he's forever coming close, going to swallow you whole with the darkness.... so evil... it took me a very long time to get to the point where I could stand to verse him again after beating him the first time. >.>

 

[Dre89]

Bowser used to intimidate me as a kid, which is probably why I still think he's so badass today even though he's been turned into comical relief.

I just remember facing him for the first time in SM64 as kid, when you drop down the pipe and the camera moves across to his feet and you realise how huge he is whilst his badass music is playing.

 

[Luco]

I have some bowser fan-art that makes him look seriously cool. It's on my laptop somewhere.

In any case, I found DKCR's controls just as ok as any other DKC, personally I got used to them rather quickly, it really wasn't a big problem for me after the first few levels.

I agree that the lack of Kremlins was a pretty big flaw. In terms of level design though? I felt DKCR delivered more of that goody goodness we see in old DKCs.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I found out later that if you walk (as in actually walk, not run) past redeads they won't attack you.

If this is true im going to be unimaginably sad for having gone this long without knowing it.

That said I usually play MM over OoT anyways and there's far more hilarious ways to take care of redeads in that. Still >_>

 

[Teran]

You never found that out because it was immediate sunssongsunssongsunssongomgomgomgomgomgomgomg ffffffffffffffffffffffff

RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN

Also DK64 is objectively better. Longer, has better graphics, more basic gameplay variety, more overall gameplay variety, more effort into an entertaining and coherent plot with at least a semblance of originality here and there.

Mario can piss off already.

 

[Dre89]

You never found that out because it was immediate sunssongsunssongsunssongomgomgomgomgomgomgomg ffffffffffffffffffffffff

RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN

Also DK64 is objectively better. Longer, has better graphics, more basic gameplay variety, more overall gameplay variety, more effort into an entertaining and coherent plot with at least a semblance of originality here and there.

Mario can piss off already.

I thought it was also pretty cool that if you shot a gibdo with a fire arrow it unravelled into a redead.

Again, I don't like really like saying something is 'objectively' better than something else, because values don't exist in reality. I think you could say the game is more 'developed', or 'polished' though. A game can objectively have higher definition graphics, a more complex plot, gameplay variety, extensive content etc, which is what I'd call a more developed or polished game. I don't think that necessarily makes the game better though. For example TP probably meets all those criteria over OoT, but not many people would say it's the better game.

Also, where did you find originality in the plot? I struggle to see it.

You seem to have something against Mario. I have to say though, I do think the Mario series is really only as big as it is because it was the first one, not necessarily because it's the best. I think if the DKCs came before the SMBs DK would be the dominant franchise.

I really need to play through all the core DK games and finish them. By core I mean the DKCs, 64 and DKCR. I guess you could count Diddy Kong Racing as a core DK game too, because that was a popular game.

That's another thing. I think DKR was more polished than MK, and if it'd come first it'd be the iconic racing game of Nintendo. I don't realy see what MK offers that DKR doesn't, apart from more recognisable (and therefore more likeable) characters.

 

[Teran]

I said "some semblance of originality".

The basic premise of trying have the homeland from being destroyed isn't original (technically almost nothing is really), but a giant crocodile king with a floating island equipped with a massive laser he's rigged to blow up an island is hilariously random and a somewhat entertaining new twist on it.

Also the fact that he jacks all the golden bananas to distract DK while he's building his machine back up.

Also the 7th boss being a giant cut out of King K. Rool was pretty hilarious, along with Cranky Kong's revelation about being the Donkey Kong in DK Arcade.

I mean yeah I do have something against Mario in that it is literally just a glorified tech demo these days. It's not necessarily a bad game, in fact in terms of pure gameplay Mario games are very engaging, but they're not exactly particularly affecting if you know what I mean. I don't end up thinking about Mario in idle thought, but other games may actually cross my mind.

**** even Monster Hunter, being pretty much devoid of any plot, crosses my mind sometimes because of the scope and grandeur of the monster battles etc. Mario is just like LOL MOUSTACHE

 

[Dre89]

I said "some semblance of originality".

The basic premise of trying have the homeland from being destroyed isn't original (technically almost nothing is really), but a giant crocodile king with a floating island equipped with a massive laser he's rigged to blow up an island is hilariously random and a somewhat entertaining new twist on it.

Also the fact that he jacks all the golden bananas to distract DK while he's building his machine back up.

Also the 7th boss being a giant cut out of King K. Rool was pretty hilarious, along with Cranky Kong's revelation about being the Donkey Kong in DK Arcade.

I mean yeah I do have something against Mario in that it is literally just a glorified tech demo these days. It's not necessarily a bad game, in fact in terms of pure gameplay Mario games are very engaging, but they're not exactly particularly affecting if you know what I mean. I don't end up thinking about Mario in idle thought, but other games may actually cross my mind.

**** even Monster Hunter, being pretty much devoid of any plot, crosses my mind sometimes because of the scope and grandeur of the monster battles etc. Mario is just like LOL MOUSTACHE

I think the atmosphere in the 3D Marios and the RPGs is pretty good, and that's why I think of Mario at times (well it's more Bowser and random Mushroom Kingdom citizens rather than Mario himself). I didn't play the SMBs as a kid, so I don't find them to be anything special. I didn't play the DKCs either, but I find them amazing.

I guess I'm kinda strange though. I was never that big on OoT or SM64.

Thing is Mario himself is actually a pretty bland character. He's just your generic hero for kids, and Peach is your generic damsel in distress. It's the other characters in the series that really have alot of well...character...

I'm probably being bias(bias or biased?), because he's one of my favourite characters but I think Diddy needs his own platformer. I just think there's so much potential with his jet barrels, popgun, orange grenades and the like. Also, he's agile, which suits the fast paced nature of platformers more than the lumbering power of DK does in my opinion.

 

[Teran]

Biased if you're desperate to know.

But that's a reason why DK64 was so good, it fully utilised 5 members of the DK crew. Even though DK is the main character in spirit, there is pretty much equal involvement, and even the final battle is a team effort.

 

[Pink Reaper]

idk, I've always considered DK64 to be pretty objectively bad, and it's a game i honestly love.

In terms of design it's hugely flawed. It introduces 90% of it's elements in its first few stages and then never deviates from them, the fact that you have to collect an absurd amount of **** and can only collect certain things with certain characters is ********. I can kind of understand having specific powers on specific kongs but at the end of the day having to keep switching to collect bananas(REQUIRED to fight the boss) and blueprints(REQUIRED to give you time during the last level) is really really poor design. I honestly never felt like the 5 kongs were being "Utilized" so much as they were being "forced" in that you could achieve the same level of gameplay by just giving 1 character 5 powers and then letting him do everything himself.

 

[Dre89]

Multiple Kongs was a good idea but it was definitely forced, just like motion controls in nearly every Wii game.

The problem with collectables in the DK series is that they've never been that beneficial.

You collect way more coins in DK64 than you need. But atleast in DK64 collectables served different purposes, other than just all giving lives.

 

[Teran]

Yes you seem to forget that mapping all those powers to one character would be impossible.

It wasn't forced, every platformer is a collection fest. DK might have done a bit more of that with all the different types of bananas and coins and stuff, but really it wasn't anything you had to go so far out of your way for. It's how you utilise the small amount of MB you have in a cartridge. Multiple characters being able to do different things within the same map.

It is good design, the idea of getting more from less.

Also really complaining about exploration and collection in an adventure/platformer?

Wat?

Wtf else are you meant to do? It's 3D jumping on spasticated creatures doesn't cut it.

 

[deepseadiva]

Also the 7th boss being a giant cut out of King K. Rool was pretty hilarious, along with Cranky Kong's revelation about being the Donkey Kong in DK Arcade.

I had totally forgotten how amazing that game was. God yes.

 

[Pink Reaper]

It honestly wouldnt have been that hard Teran. Every characters individual power might have been difficult but they're Crystal Coconut powers all activate in barrels, their weapon/instruments only serve to hit different switches rather than having any actual benefit and honestly a lot of it could have been solved by making it more banjo-kazooie like.

And yes im complaining about collecting in a platformer because it's too damn much. There are, let me think here, at least 10 different items(11 if you count faeries but those are w/e) that you have to collect but most serve little to no purpose whatsoever and again it goes back to being FORCED to collect a bunch of pointless **** and then having to switch characters to do it again just to be able to fight the boss. I remember as a child getting pretty pissed off at the game because in creepy castle I didnt have enough bananas to fight the boss(I was short like, 20 or something) and had to go around randomly searching for them and then when i found them, I had to find a god damned switch barrel just to be able to collect them.

This is not good game design. It's literally the opposite of the mario design wherein it gives you things you can collect but never punishes you for not doing it. DK64 would have been a better game if it had stripped itself back a bit, didnt try and force 5 characters, got rid of some of the completely pointless bull****(Battle Crowns? The ****?)

And that's not even mentioning really stupid things like the Nintendo/Rareware coins which are both necessary to beat the game and then never even mentioned.

6/10 would still play again because I honestly do really like DK64 but lord knows it's not a masterpiece by any means.

 

[Teran]

The whole point of platforming games is exploring, collecting, and continuing. The reason you were frustrated as a kid is you didn't have the wits to match Rareware and you got mad at them for it.

And yet then we'll have something like LoL or some stupid MMO which forces hours of grinding or experience unlocks to get to an acceptable point in terms of competition and oh **** what a great mechanic that is!

 

[Dre89]

I think the Rare and Nintendo coins were cool, but I agree that switching Kongs to basically collect the same stuff again was repetitive and annoying.

I don't think they should've reduced the amount of Kongs, because that's what separates it from the other 64 platformers.

Pink Reaper is right though, they introduced everything at the start of the game then did nothing different at the end of the game, except having to use all five Kongs in the last level.

I think the atmosphere of the game and the characters were really engaging though, moreso than Mario 64.

 

[Teran]

They introduced the essential mechanics fully over the first half of the game so, you know, you get to grips with the ESSENTIALS by the end of the game. Horrible game design for sure.

Not to mention you get a bunch more powerups and additional things in the latter half of the game too.

I don't get it, since when did pretty much any other games add any highly significant game mechanic right near the end of the game?

Really?

That's usually not a good idea.

Fierce Deity's Mask is the only exception because of its underlying story.



Edit: Well I imagine someone is going to reply soon with another wall.

Here is a pre emptive rebuttal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D4dccf9m10

 

[Dre89]

They introduced the essential mechanics fully over the first half of the game so, you know, you get to grips with the ESSENTIALS by the end of the game. Horrible game design for sure.

Not to mention you get a bunch more powerups and additional things in the latter half of the game too.

I don't get it, since when did pretty much any other games add any highly significant game mechanic right near the end of the game?

Really?

That's usually not a good idea.

Fierce Deity's Mask is the only exception because of its underlying story.

It's not so much about game mechanics but rather giving people new things to do. DK64 was mostly about hitting switches and collecting the same things over and over again. SM64 was more about simply traversing obstacles, and the ways you would do that would vary.

 

[Teran]

And the ways you would reach the switches, gain golden bananas, and get through the map would also vary in DK64.

You would even turn into different creatures man. o.o

OO AH OO AH

 

[Luco]

Ey, where did my post go? I thought I made a post about iconism. Oh well.

Basically Teran, I have to point out that he wasn't talking about which one was better, simply which one was more iconic.

And that, is absolutely, definitely, without a doubt, no argument, SM64. It's like how even if you prefer MM, OoT is definitely more iconic.

 

[Teran]

Yeah but how iconic it is was completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[Luco]

Was it? I could be wrong but I whought dre was originally talking about iconism?

 

[Dre89]

Yeah I was talking about what was more iconic.

I don't say games are better than others because that's subjective and putting too much authority into my own opinion.

I find it funny that people who think some games are objectively better always seem to like those games. It just happens to be a massive coincidence that all the games they like are the objectively best ones.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I find it funny that people who think some games are objectively better always seem to like those games. It just happens to be a massive coincidence that all the games they like are the objectively best ones.

I think that if you like something more than something you think is objectively better, you might have something seriously ****ing wrong with you.

This "something" of course is what we call "being Dre syndrome". Symptoms of this include disagreeing with the only person really using a rational argument to support his views, talking about **** with phrases like "ontologically prior reality" because nothing says being Dre quite like being the guy that no one can understand because when you google what the **** he's going on about, you GET THE THREAD HE POSTED ABOUT IT IN RIGHT ****IN AWAY, and being named Dre.

Now excuse me, I need to go shove my head in a tub full of acid and prepare for a ****ty night at a ****ty wedding. I'll leave you with this preemptive rebuttal to the white noise you call "logic" (another symptom of being Dre syndrome).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1iqJqNHX_g

 

[Firus]

I find it funny that people who think some games are objectively better always seem to like those games. It just happens to be a massive coincidence that all the games they like are the objectively best ones.

I think it's more that people aren't going to go out of their way to defend a game as objectively better if they don't like the game. I mean, I recognize that Mirror's Edge has a number of objective flaws, but it's still one of my favorite games of all time. But I'm not going to enter into a discussion arguing that X game is objectively better than Mirror's Edge arguing on the side of Mirror's Edge (maybe to refute some points, but not on the side against Mirror's Edge), because I like the game a lot and the last thing I want to be doing is talking about how it's actually fairly flawed and I just really like it anyway because of atmosphere and crap.

On the other hand, I will be more than happy to enter into a discussion arguing that basically any older 3D Sonic game is objectively better than Sonic Unleashed, because I like the older 3D Sonics a lot and Sonic Unleashed was one of the worst gaming experiences I've ever had, and if anybody tries to argue about the objective goods about the game, I want to refute them.

I think that if you like something more than something you think is objectively better, you might have something seriously ****ing wrong with you.

Not necessarily, you can like something for really stupid reasons / really subjective reasons (e.g. nostalgia or X person really likes it) and recognize that you like it for those reasons and therefore it's not objectively as good as other games.