Research on the Chain.

[saviorslegacy]

Tristan was talking about the Chain Jacket the other day and it got me curious.
The chain jacket is really, glitchy.
So here is the hit box of each move when jacketed.
I will make pictures and update later.

video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdzABnFohLM


Jab
There is a hidden hit box behind and up away from Sheik.

f-tilt
There is a hidden hit box behind Sheik on the ground for the full length of the chain.
The f-tilt hit box is up close to Sheik and behind Sheik. The rest of the chain has an electric property.
*coins Thunder Chain*

d-tilt
There is a HUGE hidden hit box behind Sheik.
The hit box is up close to Sheik and behind Sheik. The rest of the chain has electric properties.

u-tilt
There is a HUGE hidden hit box behind Sheik.
The hit box is Sheik and behind Sheik with the rest having electric properties.

Dash Attack
The entire chain is jacketed with Dash Attack aside from the electric tip.

On a side note:
This move combo's into itself. You an hit them with the electric tip behind you which will knock them into Sheik and will be caught by the electric tip if you place it right. From here you can keep on knocking them into you, catching them and repeat.

grab
I wasn't able to jacket this move.

FSmash
There is a humongous hidden hit box all around Sheik. It is so huge that you can hit people on the ground in front of you with a chain in the air. You can also hit people behind you without moving the chain behind you. That's how big it is.

USmash
The body of the chain gets the USmash.
There is also a medium invisible hit box around the chain.

DACUS
Same as USmash.

DSmash
The entire body of the chain gets jacked with an invisible hit box all around it.

Nair
There are hidden hit box's below the chain and out around the tip of the chain.

Fair
The Fair has a hit box directly by Sheik. The rest of the Chain is normal.

Bair
The body of the chain gets jacketed with a large hit box around the tip. There is also an invisible hit box behind Sheik.
The knock back always knocks them behind Sheik.

Uair
The hit box is Sheiks body.
The half of the chain gains electric properties.

Dair
The Fair has a hit box directly by Sheik. The rest of the Chain is normal.

Needle Storm
You jack the Needle's with no added side effect (you can tell by the explosion off of the person).
That and I froze my game by chain camping a Needle.

Chain
Nothing special happens.. surprise surprise!

Vanish
The entire chain jackets Wind. It is very weird, and awesome.

The Chain Jack is like a glitch with no purpose.

Fine, stay naive.

I have tested further and found out that you can be knocked out sometimes.

It also make Fair jacking useful since we can lock up close and when they do get back to use we can hit them with the Fair.

Now onto my favorite jack.
The Vanish
IDK why no one has put two and two together.
Wind + recovering foe= push foe away from ledge without hurting them

We can actually ledge guard with Chain. Simply knock the foe out, Vanish Glide, reappear onto the stage and chain jack. You wouldn't believe how effective it is.
The ONLY way for a for to recover it to go above our heads where there is not chain. They also have to get up there quick because Vanish Chain Jack (Ima refer to it as VCJ) has realy good reach. Thise means we can gimp many characters with little effort.



Well, that's my take on it.
I will use this thread for a list on who all can be chain camped. If we can find the chain cancel it will be listed here too. I will also put links to the original threads here later.
Right now I'm gonna take a break. That was a lot of testing and I have HW to do.

 

[Equalox]

nice nice..
a while back i did a weird chain glitch type thing
i jacked a move but when i didnt move the chain it would curl up in a circle
and start tweaking out i think i still have a replay but it was weird ..

 

[ddonaldo]

ive never really experimented with wind chain jacket since I just assumed it would be like mario fludd, but never put together it would be like a permanent fludd. now if only I could do this at least 80% of the time

 

[saviorslegacy]

nice nice..
a while back i did a weird chain glitch type thing
i jacked a move but when i didnt move the chain it would curl up in a circle
and start tweaking out i think i still have a replay but it was weird ..

Yeah, I did that when I was testing EVERY move. -_-
AT least I can Jacket almost every single time now. Testing really picked up at the end.

Another thing you will notice is more gravity. The chain will fall faster.


One more thing is the most startling. The chain is sometimes longer!
I know it is a stretch but watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Oz3TdIJdY&feature=channel_page

Amazing IMO, what I think is happening is that there is a black hole effect on the chain causing it to warp and stretch from the constant hit box that is being done to it.
That said, my theory is that the Chain is attacking itself, but because it is a God at priority it doesn't fade out.
Maybe that's why it glitch's the game at first. Maybe it has to recognize what the Chain is first, and then recognize the other move.
After that it might do some weird thing that defies game physics and glitch.
Or maybe it doesn't defy anything. Maybe it is just a normal glitch dealing with the decay system remembering a move.
Meh, I dunno. Just thinking out loud.

 

[swordgard]

Or you know, you can just use projectiles and make it useless.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Or you know, you can just use projectiles and make it useless.

Yes but the chain destroys some projectiles while some characters don't have projectiles all together.
You can take it a step further and use it under a platform or at Lylat Cruise where the tilt of the stage makes it harder to hit the person.

The people that you can camp include Marth, MK and maybe even IC's since we turn your Ice Blocks around and that we out range your Blizzard (or at least I think we do).

We can also use it at the ledge.


The Chain is one of the farthest things from even being close to useless

 

[swordgard]

Yes but the chain destroys some projectiles while some characters don't have projectiles all together.
You can take it a step further and use it under a platform or at Lylat Cruise where the tilt of the stage makes it harder to hit the person.

The people that you can camp include Marth, MK and maybe even IC's since we turn your Ice Blocks around and that we out range your Blizzard (or at least I think we do).

We can also use it at the ledge.


The Chain is one of the farthest things from even being close to useless

Oh yeah, go and camp me with that chain, risk getting grabbed all you want XD .



Shield grab doesnt affraid of anything.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Oh yeah, go and camp me with that chain, risk getting grabbed all you want XD .



Shield grab doesnt affraid of anything.

Yeah I'd like to see you shield grab while in the chain. To bad frame data says it is impossible.

 

[stealth3654]

The people that you can camp include Marth, MK and maybe even IC's since we turn your Ice Blocks around and that we out range your Blizzard (or at least I think we do).

Ankoku claimed on the Sheik match-up thread during the IC discussion that blizzard out ranges the chain.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Ankoku claimed on the Sheik match-up thread during the IC discussion that blizzard out ranges the chain.

He is probably right, I am just going by an idea in my head.

 

[Tristan_win]

Ankoku claimed on the Sheik match-up thread during the IC discussion that blizzard out ranges the chain.

yes, yes it does but if the chain can block the blizzard then with priority then I think it's worth testing.

 

[swordgard]

yes, yes it does but if the chain can block the blizzard then with priority then I think it's worth testing.

Blizzard=Transcendent.


Though luck


Also, chain can be shield grabbed from behind. Not only that, but if you do it near the ledge, then your purposingly losing stage control which your gonna need.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Blizzard=Transcendent.


Though luck


Also, chain can be shield grabbed from behind. Not only that, but if you do it near the ledge, then your purposingly losing stage control which your gonna need.

Ah, another reason for me to hate this match up.

No, you can't, you're wrong.
The chain is legit anywhere it can reach.
In fact the worst possible thing you can ever do against Sheik is get hit by the chain behind her. Because then she can reverse chain lock you and I have gotten 50% just from a reverse chain lock before.

 

[ddonaldo]

Ah, another reason for me to hate this match up.

No, you can't, you're wrong.
The chain is legit anywhere it can reach.
In fact the worst possible thing you can ever do against Sheik is get hit by the chain behind her. Because then she can reverse chain lock you and I have gotten 50% just from a reverse chain lock before.

QFT, I always smile when someone rolls behind me when I have chain out

 

[NO-IDea]

Must it be the shortest hop possible to perform? Or can it be any hop, as long as you perform it at the peak and the chain stays out? Is there any fast-falling involved. Or does it just have to be frame perfect when you pull out the chain?

I've been getting it, but inconsistently. I'm ten times better at DACUS than this btw.

Also, do you plan on making videos exhibiting the different hitboxes? I've only been trying this in practice mode with the HRB, just so I can see immediate results. However, I'm curious as to what the other hitboxes look like.

 

[ddonaldo]

Must it be the shortest hop possible to perform? Or can it be any hop, as long as you perform it at the peak and the chain stays out? Is there any fast-falling involved. Or does it just have to be frame perfect when you pull out the chain?

I've been getting it, but inconsistently. I'm ten times better at DACUS than this btw.

Also, do you plan on making videos exhibiting the different hitboxes? I've only been trying this in practice mode with the HRB, just so I can see immediate results. However, I'm curious as to what the other hitboxes look like.

if no-one confirms this in like 12 hours I can, I have a few replays I can check

 

[saviorslegacy]

Must it be the shortest hop possible to perform? Or can it be any hop, as long as you perform it at the peak and the chain stays out? Is there any fast-falling involved. Or does it just have to be frame perfect when you pull out the chain?

I've been getting it, but inconsistently. I'm ten times better at DACUS than this btw.

Also, do you plan on making videos exhibiting the different hitboxes? I've only been trying this in practice mode with the HRB, just so I can see immediate results. However, I'm curious as to what the other hitboxes look like.

Yes, the shortest hop possible
No fast falling
it can be any hop, it just needs to come out on a certain frame (think of it coming out on the ground but it is an air chain)

I guess I can make a video....

if no-one confirms this in like 12 hours I can, I have a few replays I can check

Speaking add replays I forgot to add you so I can make vids. >,<
Sorry, I forgot. I have Spanish I need to study for so I'll get ya in a bot after this test tomorrow.

 

[NO-IDea]

Your video was okay... it was just like every other chain jacket tutorial out there.

I suppose more instruction and key signals would have been better. For example, when performing DACUS, I was taught that it was a three step technique:

1) Dash
2) Attack
3) Up+Attack

And I literally perform DACUS while listening to the three clicks on my controller; dash, C-stick and then Up and R (Up+R make one click noise) in that order (I set R as my second attack button) I get it every time now. I would suggest this to Sheik mains rather than trying to getting in all the clicks as fast as possible. The only times where I cant get it as consistently is when I'm walking one direction, then suddenly DACUS the other way. (So jealous of you Light.) So that would be an auditory way of getting the timing down.

And then there are visual instructions (like, the best DACUS tutorial out there IMO), where it's a four-step technique, but steps three and four (Up and attack) can be combined. And, if tap jump is off, Up can be inputted before Attack.

At first, I realized that I've been having trouble getting out the jacket (like once every ten times) because there's no auditory signal... I'm trying to add rhythm to the sound of hitting X and the control stick afterwards... which isn't working because I don't know the rhythm yet lol. (And I tend to play brawl without sound and listen to music,, so I don't rely too heavily on the change in the chain sounds.)

I'm also trying visual cues like making sure the dust comes out her shoulders. I've tried this:

(In this pic, BEGIN to deploy the chain at THIS point - the point where Sheik is about to curl up. If done right, she will never curl up. By the time the chain is at mid-length, you should be firmly on the ground. If it's not working, try waiting a fraction of a second longer. It may seem like it's too late, but just try it out.)

taken directly from the Sheik guide. Following that, I've been getting it like once every 5 times. Maybe it's not at the peak, but half a second past the peak? When I wait a little longer, I find more success. =/

TBH, I don't think it's possible to make a better video for this AT. It's only two steps after all, and I guess practice makes perfect. You can't help but wonder why Sheik mains don't bother with this tech at all in their gameplay. For those who approve of regular chain usage in certain match-ups, why not this tech?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Your video was okay... it was just like every other chain jacket tutorial out there.

I suppose more instruction and key signals would have been better. For example, when performing DACUS, I was taught that it was a three step technique:

1) Dash
2) Attack
3) Up+Attack

And I literally perform DACUS while listening to the three clicks on my controller; dash, C-stick and then Up and R (Up+R make one click noise) in that order (I set R as my second attack button) I get it every time now. I would suggest this to Sheik mains rather than trying to getting in all the clicks as fast as possible. The only times where I cant get it as consistently is when I'm walking one direction, then suddenly DACUS the other way. (So jealous of you Light.) So that would be an auditory way of getting the timing down.

And then there are visual instructions (like, the best DACUS tutorial out there IMO), where it's a four-step technique, but steps three and four (Up and attack) can be combined. And, if tap jump is off, Up can be inputted before Attack.

At first, I realized that I've been having trouble getting out the jacket (like once every ten times) because there's no auditory signal... I'm trying to add rhythm to the sound of hitting X and the control stick afterwards... which isn't working because I don't know the rhythm yet lol. (And I tend to play brawl without sound and listen to music,, so I don't rely too heavily on the change in the chain sounds.)

I'm also trying visual cues like making sure the dust comes out her shoulders. I've tried this:



taken directly from the Sheik guide. Following that, I've been getting it like once every 5 times. Maybe it's not at the peak, but half a second past the peak? When I wait a little longer, I find more success. =/

TBH, I don't think it's possible to make a better video for this AT. It's only two steps after all, and I guess practice makes perfect. You can't help but wonder why Sheik mains don't bother with this tech at all in their gameplay. For those who approve of regular chain usage in certain match-ups, why not this tech?

I made that video because of Choknater. In fact this entire thread is because of him.
He requested a video showing the exact frame of the Chain Jacket. So that is what I did.

I was already working on the Jack so I also went ahead and done research on every jacketed move.

 

[NO-IDea]

I made that video because of Choknater. In fact this entire thread is because of him.
He requested a video showing the exact frame of the Chain Jacket. So that is what I did.

I was already working on the Jack so I also went ahead and done research on every jacketed move.

Even if we knew the exact frame, can we honestly use that visual cue? It would be like saying "learn to DACUS by performing the AT at this moment"

That's physically impossible (anyone who says they actually do DACUS by watching their animation is ********. Your eyes aren't that good.) People who DACUS consistently have gotten it more on muscle memory formed through literally watching their fingers to learn the timing, or listening to their controllers. Animations can only be used for estimating the correct time. But knowing it's on frame 6, etc., won't truly help. It's hard to learn through frames.

But yeah, seeing a video displaying what the hitboxes look like would be helpful. I totally agree with that part of your research.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Even if we knew the exact frame, can we honestly use that visual cue? It would be like saying "learn to DACUS by performing the AT at this moment"

That's physically impossible (anyone who says they actually do DACUS by watching their animation is ********. Your eyes aren't that good.) People who DACUS consistently have gotten it more on muscle memory formed through literally watching their fingers to learn the timing, or listening to their controllers. Animations can only be used for estimating the correct time. But knowing it's on frame 6, etc., won't truly help. It's hard to learn through frames.

But yeah, seeing a video displaying what the hitboxes look like would be helpful. I totally agree with that part of your research.

Chain Jacket= muscle memory
If you watch the video you will get around the idea of when to perform it then you just fiddle with it forever until you get it down. That is what I did.

I totally learned DACUS by watching my animation.

Meh, I'll do that after I finish something else.

 

[NO-IDea]

Chain Jacket= muscle memory...

I totally learned DACUS by watching my animation.

First part, agreed.

Second part, wtf? Okay, yes you can learn from watching your animation if you're learning the mistakes you made. Such as if you did d-air, or hyphen smash, or d-smash, or dash attack. But, honestly, that's just learning the order of pressing buttons.

It's impossible to learn the timing from watching the animations. You learn it through rhythm and practice, and eventually it becomes muscle memory.

 

[saviorslegacy]

First part, agreed.

Second part, wtf? Okay, yes you can learn from watching your animation if you're learning the mistakes you made. Such as if you did d-air, or hyphen smash, or d-smash, or dash attack. But, honestly, that's just learning the order of pressing buttons.

It's impossible to learn the timing from watching the animations. You learn it through rhythm and practice, and eventually it becomes muscle memory.

Uh huh.. ever tried it with Snake in 1/4 by hitting someone first and then performing USmash?
That is where I started when I was trying to learn DACUS.

 

[NO-IDea]

Uh huh.. ever tried it with Snake in 1/4 by hitting someone first and then performing USmash?
That is where I started when I was trying to learn DACUS.

Why try in 1/4? Snake's DACUS is extremely easy to perform. The timing is very loose (you can hit with the dash attack before even canceling it to u-smash.) You don't even need an alternative attack button for it (use Z.)

I suppose you could slow it down when learning for Sheik. But, why not practice in real time, learn the order of buttons from mistakes and the timing from rhythm?

Meh... anyway, yeah, those hitbox vids. Kind of excited to see the vanish cancel hitbox.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Why try in 1/4? Snake's DACUS is extremely easy to perform. The timing is very loose (you can hit with the dash attack before even canceling it to u-smash.) You don't even need an alternative attack button for it (use Z.)

I suppose you could slow it down when learning for Sheik. But, why not practice in real time, learn the order of buttons from mistakes and the timing from rhythm?

Meh... anyway, yeah, those hitbox vids. Kind of excited to see the vanish cancel hitbox.

I done that like a year ago cuz I wanted to know its exact hit box.

Vanish Jacket= The Chain's body has a wind box while there is a larger body around the tip.
You just like hit them with a Chain that does no damage but push them back.

 

[ddonaldo]

no problem savior, ive been really busy myself and probably wont be able to send them this year since im not going to take my wii with me to uni, so dont hassle yourself

 

[B!squick]

This seems retardedly awesome. My only question is, how do you do it? O.o?

 

[ddonaldo]

perform your attack, short hop and pull out your chain while still airborne. The frames where you have to pull out your chain are very precise. There is more info in the sheik guides though

 

[GodlyOwnage]

I don't mean to sounds nubbish. But what exactly is so great about pulling the chain out in mid air when there are so many other options?

And i'm like the guy above i DACUS on sound of my controller Dash>C-stick down> X-for attack since R+A is a faster grab than Z. Though i still have the bad habbit of pressing Z V.V
I'm fairly decent at DACUS once i have had time to warm up a little since im still new to it. I can do it out of a dash dance now which just looks so flashy when i DACUS to a DD and then straight into another DD. XD

 

[Judo777]

Saviors it depends on which chain u use cause i have benn grabbed out of someone power shielding and gotten grabbed out of sh chain.

Also luigis air speed is high enough to go equal with the wind jackets push back. and the wind jack pushes people up a lil so luigi can literally hover next to use throwing out aerials until one connects. Also luigi has the second lowest airspeed in the game.

You can chain jack a chain it just acts liuke a short hop chain with an even less active hit box than sh chain already has. Chain jack hits way slower in succession that sh chain which also hits slower than grounded chain.

Also i dont think ur theory on the chain hitting itself is very plausible because the chain has trancendant priority which means it doesnt interact with other hitboxes at all.

 

[FrozenFire13]

Yeah, are you sure that the chain retains its electric properties when jacketed? I've never done that, but I guess I've only done it with smashes and vanish. Also I'm agreeing with Judo about the wind guarding. Can't people just DI up and toward you since the wind pushes them slightly upward in the first place? Plus how many characters would that be useful for anyway? I can see it ****** Captain Manlypants and Ganon, but why bother?

 

[ddonaldo]

chain does not retain its electric properties when jacketed and does get stale moves effect. also the speed at which the hitboxes comes out is far too slow so unless you straight out KO with it which pretty hard to do it isnt that useful.
SH chain is better imo

 

[Dr.Peabody]

Many times the chain just jackets itself, it seems, in which case then entire chain will have the damage and knockback of the tip (but without electrical properties), making it significantly harder to run through. There also seems to be a lot more leniency in performing this.
(edit) - I don't know what exactly happens when you jacket the chain. It just seems that the whole chain get's the tip's knockback if you goof the timing just a little bit. (the tip still has the electric properties)

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW is its possible to jacket Zelda's moves.
(edit) - why yes, yes it is. But they don't seem to retain their electric qualities, either.

 

[Tristan_win]

Many times the chain just jackets itself, it seems, in which case then entire chain will have the damage and knockback of the tip (but without electrical properties), making it significantly harder to run through. There also seems to be a lot more leniency in performing this.
(edit) - I don't know what exactly happens when you jacket the chain. It just seems that the whole chain get's the tip's knockback if you goof the timing just a little bit. (the tip still has the electric properties)

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW is its possible to jacket Zelda's moves.
(edit) - why yes, yes it is. But they don't seem to retain their electric qualities, either.

It is not possible to jack Zelda moves, what are you talking about?

 

[Zankoku]

Dr. Peabody, you're talking about an aerial chain, or SH chain. Aerial chain has 5% per hit on all parts of the chain instead of 3% and significantly more hitstun. If you land before a certain amount of time has passed, then you won't be forced to retract the chain.

 

[FrozenFire13]

So has anybody done any testing to see if Savior's theory is any good? I think it would take to long and be too situational, but I haven't done any major testing, so I can't say anything for sure.

 

[Dr.Peabody]

It is not possible to jack Zelda moves, what are you talking about?

Dr. Peabody, you're talking about an aerial chain, or SH chain. Aerial chain has 5% per hit on all parts of the chain instead of 3% and significantly more hitstun. If you land before a certain amount of time has passed, then you won't be forced to retract the chain.

If I transform to Zelda, perform a move, then transform back to sheik and chainjacket SOMETHING, what is it that you propose that I just chained? Hitboxes and such seemed to be different than Sheik's attacks when jacketed, so don't be so quick to nonchalantly say "oh, it was the attack you did with sheik before."

And I suppose I was talking about the "Aerial chain" there. I usually find that aerial chain to be more useful (especially in its reliability) than going for a jacket.

 

[Zankoku]

I don't think any Sheik player interested in competing has seriously attempted to chain jacket on command during tournament matches.

 

[Dr.Peabody]

On the other hand, it is fairly easy to aerial chain on command. Just to through it out there: After a spotdodge-dsmash type situation, the sheik player could potentially try to follow up with a chain jacket. If it doesn't work, then an "aerial chain" is the likely product, which is a little bit more difficult to punish; ergo less risk.

All theoretical, of course.

 

[Judo777]

On the other hand, it is fairly easy to aerial chain on command. Just to through it out there: After a spotdodge-dsmash type situation, the sheik player could potentially try to follow up with a chain jacket. If it doesn't work, then an "aerial chain" is the likely product, which is a little bit more difficult to punish; ergo less risk.

All theoretical, of course.

Actually you arent more likely to get either aerial or grounded chain from attempting a chain jacket. Chain jacket occurs the frame between the two so if u do it too early you get aerial, too late you get a grounded it just depends on how you mis-perform the chain jacket.

@ankoku ur right i have never tried to chain jacket in a serious match although i have accidentally chain jacketed vanishes wind to lose a match before lol i got D3 Baired lol