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Remaking the Smash Bros. series from the ground-up!

Pupp135

Pupp135

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I’ll vote for ShadicMCGS ShadicMCGS in terms of items.

My version of 1-P Game would shuffle around the order in which characters are fought, so they are fought in chronological order.
Order: Mario, Giant DK, Link, Break the Targets, Samus, Yoshi Team, Kirby (King Dedede is his ally), Board the platforms, Fox, Pokemon FFA (all three pokemon are in the battle), Metal Mario, Race to the Finish, Fighting Polygon Team, Master Hand.
 
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Perkilator

Perkilator

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For modes, I’d say handle 1P Game as something similar to the arcade modes of Tekken 1 and 2; whichever fighter you pick, every other available fighter is your opponent, and you fight your rival where your fighter’s slot is. For example, if you pick Mario, the route is DK -> Link -> Samus -> Yoshi -> Target Test -> Kirby -> Fox -> Pikachu -> Luigi -> Race to the Finish -> Polygon Team -> A Metal version of yourself -> Master Hand.

Whenever you clear 1P Game as any of the starting characters, you can unlock that character's rival by clearing 1P Game on any difficulty without using a continue. You can't play 1P Game as any of the unlockable characters until you've unlocked them all.

As far as other modes, I’d say keep Target Test but replace Board the Platforms (not that exciting, IMO) with Race to the Finish (which would work more like Melee, where you race by yourself in 1P Game).
 
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ShadicMCGS

ShadicMCGS

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We're reaching the end of Smash 64 and the start of Melee, so just as a thought, I'm going to inspect some key dates that would have changed with this new timeline.
  • The game's release dates (since this timeline has 6 extra months of development) would likely become:
    • January 21, 1999 > Late July 1999 (after E3)
    • April 26, 1999 > Late September 1999
    • November 19, 1999 > Mid-May 2000
  • The project plan for Melee was originally finalised on July 5th, 1999 (Source: David V. Kimball's "Elevated"), so an extra six months would have the project plan be finished by early November 1999.
  • As we all know, Melee only had 13 months of development, originally starting around Fall 2020 (Source: David V. Kimball's "Elevated") and finishing just before Melee's release date of November 21, 2001 (in Japan), December 3 (in North America), and May 2002 (for PAL regions). Because of the extra six months:
    • Development would either begin around Spring 2001 (if we're adding the additional six months) or the same time as usual (because GameCube dev kits probably would've been sent out by then).
    • The initial release dates would either remain the same or be changed to May/June of 2002 (for NTSC) and November 2002 (for PAL).
So in terms of that the potential release date would either be from November 2001 to November 2002 (if we're sticking to normal timeline), or May 2002 to May 2003 (if we're adding Smash 64's six months).

Remember, this was just a thought I had! The final decision comes down to the thread host.
 
GamingFan1997

GamingFan1997

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Here are the results of the item vote:
ShadicMCGS ShadicMCGS 's item choices will be the ones used for Super Smash Bros. (N64).

And here are the nomination for 1P Game's format:
My vote's for the format suggested by Pupp135 Pupp135 .

Since Smash 64's development is wrapping up, the next couple of jobs will be where our work on Melee begins!

Job #5: Submit a base roster size and a full roster size for Super Smash Bros. Melee
I'll go with a base roster size of 15 and a full roster size of 27.

Job #6: Submit a fighter from a Nintendo series not in Smash 64 for Melee's base roster
1688799398336.png

I'll submit the Ice Climbers (...Ice Climber), as I really liked their "duo fighter" gimmick.
 
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ShadicMCGS

ShadicMCGS

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First off, it's worth noting that we can still possibly add extra development time to Melee, so I'd probably add around 6-9 extra months to development. That way, the game's development would be less destructive for Sakurai and more content would be added. Secondly, I assume that base roster means the starter roster and the full size means everything + unlockables.

So with this in mind:
  • Base Roster: 16 (same as Smash 64, though not all are the same 16 characters like before)
  • Full Roster: 30 (maybe 31, if Sheik is in and counted as a separate character from Zelda)
As for a fighter from a series not in Smash 64 that can be on the base roster, my choice would be...
Olimar_Point.png

Olimar from the Pikmin series! If Melee was given 6-9 extra months as I said, Pikmin would've been already released. And considering it's a newer franchise, I think it probably would be safe to include Olimar.

Honorable Mentions: Isaac (from Golden Sun) and Pit (from Kid Icarus)
 
nirvanafan

nirvanafan

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I agree with ShadicMCGS with roster counts

Andy


Fire Emblem's sister series, has seen a similar amount of entries at this point & even beat out Fire Emblem in getting a release outside of japan.
 
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Pupp135

Pupp135

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I’ll vote for Perkilator Perkilator ’s 1P-Game format as it seems cool.

For the starting roster, I’ll go with 16, which is just one (two if you count Zelda/Sheik as one) more than how many we actually had.

For the final roster, I feel that 28 sounds reasonable as we’ll have a few more unique newcomers, but I could see us losing two or three clones in this scenario as there’s probably a smaller inclination to drastically pad out the roster.

For my newcomer, I’ll go with Duck Hunt because we don’t have a true retro fighter, and Duck Hunt was incredibly successful (sorry for misreading it, but it should be fixed now).
SSBU spirit Duck Hunt.png
 
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darkvortex

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Pupp135 said:
I’ll vote for Perkilator Perkilator ’s 1P-Game format as it seems cool.

For the starting roster, I’ll go with 16, which is just one (two if you count Zelda/Sheik as one) more than how many we actually had.

For the final roster, I feel that 28 sounds reasonable as we’ll have a few more unique newcomers, but I could see us losing two or three clones in this scenario as there’s probably a smaller inclination to drastically pad out the roster.

For my newcomer, am I allowed to nominate Zelda/Sheik as a transforming pair because I thought this gimmick was cool, and I think it’s an interesting way to represent the deuteragonist of Legend of Zelda.
Zelda OoT.pngSheik OoT.png
Click to expand...
Has to be a series that wasn't in 64
 
GamingFan1997

GamingFan1997

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Wow... we've got a lot of submissions for Melee's first newcomers, and we haven't even gotten into fighters from Smash 64's returning series yet! Anyways, here are the nominations:
  • Ice Climbers (Ice Climber)
  • Olimar (Pikmin)
  • Andy (Advance Wars)
  • Duck Hunt (Duck Hunt)
  • Excitebiker (Excitebike)
  • Ayumi Tachibana (Famicom Detective Club)
  • Wario (Wario Land)
  • Mr. Game & Watch (Game & Watch)
  • Pit (Kid Icarus)
We'll be adding 2 newcomers to start with, so vote for your top 2, with yours below 1st:
  1. Wario
  2. Olimar
And here are the roster size nominations:
  • My roster size (15 base, 27 full)
  • ShadicMCGS ShadicMCGS 's roster size (16 base, 30 full)
  • Pupp135 Pupp135 's roster size (16 base, 28 full)
Yes, voting for your own roster size is allowed.

As for 1P Game's format:
Perkilator Perkilator 's 1P Game format will be the one used, which means that Board the Platforms will not be returning as a mode (this shaves off some of 64's dev time, since there's no longer a need to create 16 different stages for that mode).

TheLastMaverickHunter said:
Job #6:

If Rare is off-limits/can’t be negotiated with, then Mr. Game & Watch is my pick.
Click to expand...
Now, to address the concerns regarding Rare IP content in Super Smash Bros. Melee...

Discussion #1: Rare IP content in Super Smash Bros. Melee
We're in an awkward position regarding the possibility of adding content from the intellectual properties of the game studio Rare, which was arguably the most prominent 2nd-party developer for Nintendo prior to the studio's acquisition by Microsoft on September 24, 2002. In the original timeline Melee was released on November 21, 2001, and contained two items from Rare's Perfect Dark (released on May 22, 2000): The Proximity Mine/Motion-Sensor Bomb (a holdover from Smash 64, where it was instead based on the one from Rare's Goldeneye 007 licensed game, which Perfect Dark was a spiritual successor to; this item was later retconned into a Smash Bros. original item from Brawl onward) and the Cloaking Device. This combined with Nintendo considering trophies of some of Rare's characters for Melee shows that Rare's original IPs were perfectly eligible for content in Melee.

Now, assuming that Melee maintains the same development time it did originally, there's no risk of potential legal issues with Microsoft due to the game releasing before the September 2002 deadline, even if we account for the additional months of dev time for Smash 64 pushing forward Melee's development and release date by that same amount. But with the added dev time that's certain to go into this version of Melee (which ironically would normally come in handy for negotiating the rights to use Rare's IPs), we run the risk of exceeding that deadline.

Of course, since this thread covers an alternate universe version of the Smash Bros. series, it's also entirely possible that the Nintendo of this thread's universe chose to solidify their partnership with Rare by acquiring them as a first-party developer before Microsoft did, given how heavily associated with each other they were during the lifespans of the SNES and N64. This would, of course, make content from Rare's IPs more easily available for use in future Smash Bros. games.

With that in mind, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how best to handle the situation regarding Rare, and how much content from Rare's IPs could (or should) be included in Melee.
 
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ShadicMCGS

ShadicMCGS

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Wow, a LOT of stuff to talk about here.

First off the newcomers, which is pretty simple:
  1. Ice Climbers - I mean, they made it into the actual game.
  2. Olimar - Gotta support my choice.
Secondly, for the roster size, if I can't vote for myself, I'll just go with Pupp's since it's closer to my one. (Don't forget my one can also technically be 31, if Sheik is involved)

Lastly, the big one: the Rare IPs.

I think the main problem with this whole discussion revolves around timing. If this game releases before September 2002, then Rare content was eligible, but otherwise, we're dead. If we were following a timeline where Nintendo's relationship with Rare WAS better, then content from franchises like Banjo-Kazooie and other games would be able to be put in. Whether they're playable or not is up to the Smash team. Of course, if Nintendo was still planning to sell Rare, then we would pretty much end up in the same position or worse, no Rare content at all.

However, I believe we can all say that the most likely Rare character that can appear in Melee is Diddy Kong, because he was created by Rare but for a Nintendo franchise (Donkey Kong), so whether we get more Rare content or not, Diddy Kong is a safe bet.

In the end, since this whole thread is a hypothetical situation, I feel like there's no problem of thinking that Nintendo would probably have a better relationship with Rare. After all, this IS a hypothetical. So, I'd personally say: Yes, Rare content is eligible for our alternate Melee.

P.S. I personally would've kept Board the Platforms, no matter how boring, at least it was something to do! If people found it boring, it would not be in Melee.
 
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ShadicMCGS

ShadicMCGS

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TheLastMaverickHunter said:
Would there be any issues regarding Conker? Not that I plan on submitting him later on, but iirc his creator wasn’t sure if Nintendo would allow another game.
Click to expand...
Yeah there's no way Conker would probably be a playable character, let alone in the game as a whole. They would have to be given the "TOP SECRET" treatment, and I doubt they would do that to a playable character.
 
Pupp135

Pupp135

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I’ll go with 27 fighters as I don’t find 30/31 feasible given the time constraints unless we have 6 clones.

1. Icies
2. Wario

While having more Rare content would be cool to see, I’d still limit it to just items given that Sakurai mentioned that Banjo-Kazooie being a Rare character was a huge hurdle for adding them, and it seems that Diddy was excluded in Mario Tennis and was not initially in Double Dash‘s planned roster because he was in a licensing grey area in the early ‘00s.
 
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darkvortex

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Gamingfan.

1. Wario
2. Icies

Mr. G&W and Ayumi are both characters I think we should include but they feel much more like unlockables

I'd be fine with Diddy but I think everything else depends on timing.
 
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BowserKing

BowserKing

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1.Ice Climbers
2.Wario

Also voting for Shadic’s roaster size

Diddy Kong would make a great inclusion as well. Perhaps negotiations would be needed for more rare content.
 
ShadicMCGS

ShadicMCGS

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Pupp135 said:
I’ll go with 27 fighters as I don’t find 30/31 feasible given the time constraints unless we have 6 clones.
Click to expand...
Melee already had 6 clones in the main timeline, and besides, at the start of the thread, the host said we can choose a maximum of 1 year of extra development time, so that's why I think 6-9 extra months could achieve a roster of 30/31.
 
nirvanafan

nirvanafan

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Game & Watch
Andy

Pupps roster size

As much as i would love to imagine a world where Rare stays with Nintendo I think its best to not open that can of worms & rewrite history that far.

Agree with what everyone has said in connection to Rare content vs Melee release. Do think a decent argument could be made though for allocading some extra resources towards getting another Rare character (Banjo, Rash, Fulgore, Krystal) instead of Diddy.
 
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darkvortex

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Imo, if we give the game longer dev time, which it seems we want to, then i think the chances of us having a rare character not named Diddy \ K. Rool are slim to none, unless we wanna do a full AU and stop the Xbox buyout
 
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GamingFan1997

GamingFan1997

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Alright, time to tally up the votes for Melee's first newcomers!
  • Ice Climbers - 11
  • Olimar - 2
  • Andy - 3
  • Duck Hunt - 0
  • Excitebiker - 3
  • Ayumi Tachibana - 0
  • Wario - 12
  • Mr. Game & Watch - 2
  • Pit - 0
Wario and the Ice Climbers have joined the roster!
1688947248524.png
1688947573306.png


Now onto Melee's roster size:
  • My roster size (15 base, 27 full) - 4 votes
  • ShadicMCGS ShadicMCGS 's roster size (16 base, 30 full) - 3 votes
  • Pupp135 Pupp135 's roster size (16 base, 28 full) - 1 vote
This version of Melee will have a base roster size of 15 fighters and a full roster size of 27 fighters. I originally had my vote for the largest roster (Shadic's), but after giving it some thought, I decided that I preferred a quality-over-quantity approach to Melee's roster (in particular, less clones and more original fighters). That said, I am willing to extend the roster size to 28 (and the base roster size to 16, if necessary) to accommodate for Zelda & Sheik, should they make it into the game with their swap mechanic intact.

After reading everyone's thoughts on how to handle Rare's IPs in Melee, here's what I have decided:

Overall, I feel that our best option for including content from Rare's IPs in this version of Melee is to just go with the "alternate timeline where Nintendo had a better relationship with Rare, thus preventing the latter's acquisition by Microsoft" approach. Not only does this not put us on a time limit to include content from Rare's IPs, but it also makes it easier to include said content in future Smash Bros. games, especially if this improved relationship between Nintendo and Rare leads to Rare being acquired as a first-party developer for Nintendo.

This, however, comes with the caveat of changing the course of Rare's (and to a lesser extent Nintendo's) game development history, making it harder to determine the futures of the IPs affected (and how that would affect their representation in Smash Bros.). Here are some of the more foreseeable consequences that would result from this:
  • Rare's SNES and N64 games featuring their original IPs would be available for purchase on Nintendo's eShop, and would be viable to receive remakes and/or remasters on Nintendo consoles (along with any games they make for the GameCube and Wii).
  • Rare continues to be involved in the development of the Donkey Kong franchise, resulting in many potential changes:
    • Donkey Kong Racing is not scrapped, and releases on the GameCube as intended.
    • Diddy Kong Pilot is not revamped into Banjo Pilot.
    • The DKC characters created by Rare have more involvement within the wider Super Mario franchise.
    • Retro Studios would not need to become involved in the development of Donkey Kong Country Returns and Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze (whether or not they actually do become involved in those games' development, or if either of those games are made at all, remains to be determined).
  • Since Star Fox Adventures no longer needs to be rushed to completion to meet the Microsoft buyout deadline, it releases later than it normally would have, and in a more complete state.
  • Grabbed by the Ghoulies, Perfect Dark Zero, and Kameo: Elements of Power are still developed and released, but for the Nintendo GameCube as originally planned rather than for the Xbox (Grabbed by the Ghoulies) and Xbox 360 (Perfect Dark Zero, Kameo: Elements of Power).
    • Alternatively, the latter two could have their development moved up to the Nintendo Wii as potential launch titles.
    • The same presumably applies to the Banjo X prototype, which would eventually become Banjo & Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts.
    • Because of Rare's games, the GameCube would end up being more commercially successful than it was originally.
  • Depending on when Nintendo officially acquires Rare as a first-party developer, Conker's Twelve Tales either is not revamped into Conker's Bad Fur Day, or is revamped and the Conker series is subsequently discontinued indefinitely.
    • Consequently, this means that Conker: Live & Reloaded is never developed.
With that in mind, I've set up a StrawPoll to determine whether or not we should go this route. To give a timeframe for when Rare would be acquired by Nintendo, it'd be at some point between July 1999 and September 2002.
Should Rare be acquired by Nintendo in the Smash B... - Online Poll - StrawPoll.com

In terms of content from Rare's games that would make it into Melee specifically, I'd say that the Donkey Kong Country series is the most viable to include content from regardless of our decision regarding Rare's relationship with Nintendo, since the Donkey Kong franchise is already one of Nintendo's own IPs despite the DKC games and their characters being created by Rare, so it'd be the series that Nintendo would be most willing to negotiate content from (it helps that the series already has a fighter in the form of Donkey Kong himself). For Rare's original IPs, we could probably still keep the items from Perfect Dark (the Motion-Sensor Bomb and the Cloaking Device), though they might have to be retconned into Smash Bros. original items if the decision is made to maintain Microsoft's acquisition of Rare. Everything else depends on whether Rare is acquired by Nintendo or Microsoft and how much extra development time Melee takes up.

Job #8: Vote 3 of Smash 64's unlockable fighters to be moved to the base roster
My votes are:
  1. Ness
  2. Marth
  3. Captain Falcon
Job #9: Submit a new game mode for Melee that wasn't in 64
I'll submit Home-Run Contest.
 
nirvanafan

nirvanafan

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Meowth
Falcon
Dedede

Snag the Collectable (Trophy?), always kind of liked this simple mode from Melee's classic mode, maybe can be expanded with addition stages or competeing against oppenents.
 
TheLastMaverickHunter

TheLastMaverickHunter

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Bowser
Captain Falcon
Ness

If it’s okay, I’ll borrow Perkilator Perkilator ‘s Smash Party idea from the Brawl thread.
Perkilator said:
Job #88: Smash Party
This would be similar to Mario Party, where your roll a single number and move across the stage select screen (which adds the Melee stages) starting from Battlefield and play minigames that utilize the Smash gameplay. Brawl was meant to be a more casual experience, so I figured I’d throw in a silly game mode.
Click to expand...
As for what a Rare buyout would entail, there is an interesting Reddit post that delves into this.
 
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