Religion: what is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Huah!

[Banjodorf]

I have a challenge. I would like someone to tell me something good that has come out of religion that couldn't have been there anyway. I have been been thinking about this for a while and I can't think of any reason to believe in any kind of god, other than for weak minded people to latch onto something so that they won't feel like their life is out of control.

Someone order extra long poast?

Ok. My stance on religion, is, I am an Atheist, but I would like people to believe what they want, as long as it doesnt affect what i believe in a negative fashion.

I look at the world in a logical eye. Why dont we look back to the 1500s and 1600s, when at the time, the Catholic Church was excommunicating people who wanted to SEEK the mysteries of life, and learn what they had to offer, branding them, what have you, telling them god did everything

(This is of course not what goes on today, at least to my knoledge, in Vatican city and otherwise, so please take no offese.)

One group, who called themselves The Illuminati, or in easier terms "enlightened ones", "beings of light" would not give up their search for answers, and fought back, continuing to learn and understand the world in a scientific way.

The catholic church labeled them as enemys, calling them "The Shaitan", or "Satan, Followers of Satan" in arabic, which they considered an evil language and evil people at the time.

The Illuminati eventually fled here, and blended with the Diety-worshipers, the Masons. After working their way to the top of the Masonic Ladder, they defected, and tried in their own way, for now unsuccessfully to conquer the world.

To make a short point in this passage, the Illuminati were driven the way they were, forced to flee because of persecution by the major religious body.


On to other issues. The Big Bang Theory: I dont understand how religious groups can look at this idea and say it didnt happen, when this is could do one of two things: prove a god created the universe, or prove something else created the universe, something not as intelligent, or even living created it.

I lean towards the second option, simply because I dont belibve several things I happened upon in the bible, like the book of Genesis.

I dont mean to offend, in case anyone is offended, but I look at the Bible as I think historically it was. A book written by various men, whose collections of the words of a man who may or may not have been divine were gathered up and placed in one volume.

Again, if this is not what you believe please do not be offended.

The last thing i have difficulty grasping, is how people doubt evolution so. There is physical evidence of cavemen, and dinosaurs, so it all had to have happened, right?

Ive talked to people, who seem disgusted or disturbed by the fact or assumption that men were once monkeys, and I say "why?"

I mean all the gorillas at the zoo i used to visit, at least the head gorilla, had a Tv, couch, swing, and about 6 female apes in his pen.. he was living the good life

I just think evolution is absolutely logical. Things end up in a new environment and have to adapt, they will, kind of like falcons in my area have adapted to city environments,

Lets see. Why dont we say that the first apes to walk the earth existed on Pangea. If some apes had migrated to the area that would become asia, and had settled, then the land would have moved without their notice (other than occasional earthquakes) and they would have to adapt to colder environments, learning how to wield and create weapons and such (barbaric as i think hunting is) to survive.

The apes that hadnt migrated, and has stayed in the area that would become Africa and such would not have had to adapt, and would have remained the same, which would explain why, even with humans running rampant, we still have apes today.

My view on death: Alright, I belive in a spirirt, that makes every creature who it is. What maks me myself, you you, my dog my dog etc. etc.

I dont belive in hell. Hell was a creation of all religions in the olden days (with the exception of Judaism, I think theyre still indecisive about what happens, correct?) to get people under their control (basically, if you ****, pillage and murder without our permittion, you go to hell where youll brun in fire and brimstone for eternity!) ..certainly sounds like enough to convince them to listen, but thats just my idea.

I do belive in heaven, but it has more to do with the spirit taking your personality, and creating an image of what YOu would belive is heaven, where your soul spends eternity. This as opposed to the airport/pearly gates image created by others.

Of course, I could be all wrong, and reincarnation is the way, I mean if the progression is Rock---> Animal ---> Man, this would explain alot

As the Animal population drops The human population is drastically increasing, past a level we can control easily. Coincidence? Who knows?

Religion is though, as perviously stated a message of hope, good will ( in most cases) and love, but you DONT need religion to have or believe in these feelings. But whatever works for people is fine with me.

I hope you enjoyed reading my two cents, hoping my writing style wasnt too confusing

have a good day

woot 25th post

 

[Banjodorf]

I would also like to add that despite the good religion does for people, it is the prime cause of pain for many.

FIrst lets look at the crusades, which was an arrogant attack by early christians on muslims so they could simply reclaim some land. they failed.

now lets look at the civil war in Iraw, and how the two islamic factions are destroying eachother, not just in iraq of course, but everywhere. Is this what religion was supposed to be?

 

[Banjodorf]

NO one is evil but does evil
none of those things are evil maybe commies
the last 4 seperate us, but we can learn to respect other religion

Communism itself, as written by Marx in the Communist Manifesto was not supposed to be what it became.

It was supposed to be a government in which everyone was truly equal, literally, which seems a bit drab, but its not evil.

It was turned into something evil, by Stalin for one who killed millions of people, giving Marx's idea a bad name.

Famous quote "If one does not learn from history, they are doomed to repeat it"

 

[Pluvia's other account]

As long as you don't try forcing your beliefs down other peoples throat, I couldn't care less what you are.

But I do find it rather stupid that almost all Christians think that their rules don't apply to them, only Non-Christians.

I don't know why I decided to penalize them. Mostly because it's either that or Islam which people talk about.

 

[AltF4]

You know what's evil? Double posting.

Oh, man... then what's triple posting?

By the way, the Vatican did officially say that the big bang theory does not conflict with catholic dogma. So you're free to be christian, believe in the big bang, and not be excommunicated. Kudos. Now if only they could sanction a few other things everyone else has known for years...

 

[frottage]

well, what's atheism good for? even if all religions were wrong, at least they give people a reason to live. if i didn't believe in God, and i thought that once i died, that was it, and i would completely cease to exist and be forgotten forever, i'd be pretty depressed my entire life. since i have a religion, i have a reason to live, since i believe in an afterlife. i guess that's all i'll say, i don't want to get into an argument over religion, which would be completely pointless, since i'm not going to be able to change anyone's opinion, especially over the internet.

 

[Banjodorf]

Well Atheism doesnt have to be good for anything, does it? We still fel love, and all that people seem to associate with christianity for some reason.

Atheism is just my belief that I shouldnt base my life around things written in books, which helps me make decisions, and get on with my life, without worrying "But what if this happens when i die?"

THAT is what i think it's good for.

 

[commonyoshi]

(persecution of gays)

Leviticus 20:13
'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.'

That whole mass thing was made up by men as a system of control. The church decides on what will become dogma, and has a regular outlet from which to dispense their propaganda in a convincing manner.

Church was a natural idea that came out of Christianity. (and I'm sure other religions as well)

The earliest Christians started communing together to learn more about God. The book of Acts describes the earliest Christians possessing the Holy Spirit which enabled them to see visions, prophecy, and all that fun stuff, and they would have meetings every once in a while and talk about their religion. Each member of the group would do whatever his ability allowed him to do in order to help his church. One of the "spiritual gifts" enabled by the Holy Spirit was teaching, and that's probably where the concept of leaders of the church came from.

Religion has given good/evil people the ability to kill you and get away with it!

Why? cause your opposite...
ie.
I must cleanse the world of non-Christians for they are evil...
I must cleanse the world of Jews for they are evil...
I must cleanse the world of gays for they are evil...
I must cleanse the world of poor for they are evil...
I must cleanse the world of communists for they are evil...

I really dont think people of different relgions are evil. Heck, I admire some traditions or practices they do that I dont. Like praying five times a day, for example. Though I dont agree that you have to pray five times a day because forcing prayer makes it lose all meaning to me, I do respect how they carry this through their whole lives with that devotion.

that's just sad you're too dumb to realize true happiness in God and Jesus they give you hope and everything else

Worst way to convert people ever.

The last thing i have difficulty grasping, is how people doubt evolution so. There is physical evidence of cavemen, and dinosaurs, so it all had to have happened, right?

I just think evolution is absolutely logical. Things end up in a new environment and have to adapt, they will, kind of like falcons in my area have adapted to city environments.

I wouldn't call any of the things on your list as proof. >_>
And yeah, I acknowledge that a lot of things in evolution are logical. I just dont think that's how we came to be, that's all.

Communism itself, as written by Marx in the Communist Manifesto was not supposed to be what it became.
Famous quote "If one does not learn from history, they are doomed to repeat it"

The funny thing about that quote is, if you look at history, you'd know Communism has NEVER worked. It's a failed idea. The only reason people supported Communism was because the government they had before was even worse.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Wait, was was the point of that top bit? The Leviticus bit.

 

[Eor]

I can't see how someone can hold the belief that God is all loving, but hates gays. Or that he "doesn't hate them, he's just ****ing them to eternal punishment", or even just "he's disappointed" with them, when they do no harm to nobody, not even themselves. It's bigotry and intolerance all over again, the bible has 1-2 versus on Homosexuality, yet around a third of the bible is about how you shouldn't tolerate heathens and non-Christians, so why aren't you people out there calling for them to not be allowed to have their own rights?

I have absolutley no problem with any religion, except for when they're taken literally. If you take a book written hundreds of years ago ago about morals literally, then you're going to have morals that have been outdated for hundreds of years. That is true of any religion.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

I agree completely.

 

[commonyoshi]

^ He said something about how the Bible never mentions persecuting gays, and how it's something the church made up.

I see where you're coming from about the gay thing, and it's a touchy subject seeing as how, at least I believe, sexual preference isn't something you can chose. However, even if it is something that cant be helped, you still have the free will of actively practicing it or not. Just like how people are born with a sinful nature and are punished for their actions, in the same way, homosexuals are punished as well.

It's also a touchy subject in that the reason against them isn't exactly all too clear. We would all pretty much agree that murder is evil because it takes away someone's life. However, homosexuality falls into the "detestable" catagory. That is included with sleeping with animals, your mom, or someone you're not married to. There's really no explanation as to why these things are bad. God doesn't want people of the same sex sleeping together, and that's all we have.

And yeah, rules do go out of date. Technically in the olden days, people weren't supposed to use the bathroom within city limits. That was understandable because it was unsanitary. However, now we have indoor plumbing.

 

[AltF4]

Ahh, I was waiting for Leviticus to get brought in. A quick aside: What version are you reading? Usually it uses the "abomination" terminology.

Anyway, have you actually read the bible? Particularly the part directly around Lev 20:13? Tell me with a straight face that that whole section isn't bat**** crazy:

Lev 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

All good christians MUST then kill their children if they swear at them.

Lev 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.

Thaaaaat's right. No having sex with a menstruating woman! Sure is a sticky situation with god. Oh!

You shall not wear a mingled stuff, wool and linen together." (Deuteronomy 22:9-11)

Not allowed to wear wool and linen together?! ****! What am I supposed to wear to my heathen seminars?


The point is to stop reading the bible literally. It's stupid and dangerous. If you actually read through the whole thing, you'll get a clear message. Love thy neighbor. Just follow that.

 

[Eor]

Saying "it's bad because it's bad" is a terrible coup out, I'm upset with you. Consensual sex between two people, when it causes no harm, has no reason to be immoral. I don't see how you can hold one to one part of the verse (Homosexuality is immoral) without holding on to the second part (stone them to death) without realizing that you're picking and choosing to hold on to your own beliefs. You're doing it as much as everybody, or else you'd be telling me I need to be stone to death, or that I have evil in my heart, or that Jews and Muslim are immoral creatures, as all of it is described so in the Bible. But you're not, and so you're not paying attention to those parts of the Bible you don't agree with. Calling God infallible, and using the Bible to justify something as being immoral despite admitting that you don't understand it, but then not applying the same to other things like murder proves your belief as being hypocritical. Which is my problem with literal interpretations.

 

[Jammer]

Must...resist...entering........thread.

Actually, I really can't get caught up in this. As much as I would want to. It's just I've been following the thread without making any posts, and I felt like I needed to say something.

Sorry. Get on with your debating.

 

[Stewie1288]

Well I might be throwing myself to a pack of dogs here, but this really intrigued me. So here' my take on it, and I'm trying to chose my words carefully here, so if i'm a bit vague forgive me.

I'm a christian. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and believe what is written in the bible. Nothing more nothing less.

There are a few things that sort of irked me that were mentioned throughout. The first of these being that christians "cling" to christianity and all of us being a part of a church where we mindlessy drone on and on about the bible. I accepted Jesus Christ when I was 8 years old. Did I know what that meant? No. Did I fully understand my religion? No. Do I currently understand everything about my religion? No. However, there came a point in my teenage years where I asked myself, "Do I really believe this? Or is it all bull?" I chose christianity, and I love it. Do I desperately cling to it as my only way of ever having a chance at happiness once I die? No sir. Being a christian is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, that's all. I'm really going to emphasize the personal part of this as well. Personal, meaning it's different for every person, the relationship is a constant work in progress, and it's dynamic, ever-changing. Admittedly some people are christians for the wrong reasons, and make the rest of us look horrible.

Now, Gay rights. Sigh, such a hot button topic. I'll try not to grind gears here.

I beleive in the bible. The bible says that being gay is wrong. Therefore we can conclude that I believe being gay is wrong. Simple enough. Why though? Why is being gay wrong? For that I have no answer besides God said so and, also the majority of society says so. Much like the reason many people think swearing is bad. It's popular opinion.

I think gay rights activists are focusing so much on the "Why not?" portion than the "Why?". I understand gay people want equal rights, but thats just their current conidtion. I mean we're all dealt raw deals in life sometimes, maybe this is theirs.

Don't get me wrong. I hold no ill will for gay people. I actually have relatives that are homosexual and I love them. God calls me to love everyone. Do I believe they're doing something they shouldn't? Yes I do. Is that any reason for me to hate them? No.

I know there are tons of holes in this, so flame away, hopefully i'll learn something from one of you.

Also I wrote this off the top of my head. Interested to hear what you all have to say.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Wait, wait, wait.

How can you be born in sin..? I thought god was perfect..?

 

[E-Jolteon]

I have a challenge. I would like someone to tell me something good that has come out of religion that couldn't have been there anyway. I have been been thinking about this for a while and I can't think of any reason to believe in any kind of god, other than for weak minded people to latch onto something so that they won't feel like their life is out of control.

Whats it good for? A question like this is relatively one-sided.. A better question would be asking what value does it have, compared to artheism?

Well, the answer is simple: Nothing. Religion is a matter of how one feels, and whether they are a spiritualist, or a materialist.

I myself am spiritualist, because I feel like theres something there for me, I beleive humans have a soul. Thats what seperates us from animals, is our abilities to experience extremes of both love and hate... Be the flame burning passionately, or a peircing enferno, I can rightfully say I don't feel like I could feel such strong emotions if it weren't for some spiritual connection, in love case, or distance, in hate.

Put simply, It's not a matter of "whats it good for"? But more, " Are you, or are you not religious?"

Done rambling.

 

[Eor]

and, also the majority of society says so. Much like the reason many people think swearing is bad. It's popular opinion.

Majority of the population? That's complete bull****.

Even if it was true, it means nothing. Slavery was supported by the majority, but that doesn't prove it morally right. The majority has no right to trample on the rights of the minority.

I think gay rights activists are focusing so much on the "Why not?" portion than the "Why?". I understand gay people want equal rights, but thats just their current conidtion. I mean we're all dealt raw deals in life sometimes, maybe this is theirs.

I'd never really think I'd see an argument used for the repression of homosexuals that could so easily be turned around for slavery, which I'm constantly refering to because it was one of the last major time periods where bigotry was everywhere. Why? Because by being humans, they have rights. There is no reason to give them less rights then everyone else just because they're "weird" or "disgusting", which is what every anti-homosexual argument boils down to.

Don't get me wrong. I hold no ill will for gay people. I actually have relatives that are homosexual and I love them. God calls me to love everyone. Do I believe they're doing something they shouldn't? Yes I do. Is that any reason for me to hate them? No.

You can say you love them, but not believing that they have the same rights as you shows a different side. I can say I love my wife all I want, but if I beat her up then what I say is void.

You posed the question "Why?", so I'm turning it to you. Why? Why shouldn't they be allowed to have civil unions? Can you think of a single reason they shouldn't, without using a bible verse (for why, look at my above post)?

 

[commonyoshi]

While I disagree with you about the "it's bad because it's bad" part, as God can decide whatever He wishes as He did create everything, I do agree with you on everything else.

If you're asking me why I dont go around bludgening homosexuals, take a look at the incident between Jesus and the adulteress. Under the Law, she should have been stoned to death right there in front of him. Jesus was God, justice should have been served right then and there. But Jesus didn't condemn her and instead successfully released her, telling her to "immediately leave her life of sin".

I dont really think I have a clear answer that will satisfy you, but I will try. Israel was God's Holy nation, set appart from the heathens. Christians are meant to be in the world, sharing the gospel with the hope of converting others. It's really a different situation. It says in the Bible (cant find verse right now) that believers should not have any right to judge non-believers. Christians can bring each other's faults to each other's attentions, but the responsibility of morality only falls within themselves. Judging those outside is God's responsibility.

So yeah, the Israelites had a law that was unto themselves, but unbelievers, while still under its moral code, aren't of the law. I hope I phrased this all in a way that is understandable.

Calling God infallible, and using the Bible to justify something as being immoral despite admitting that you don't understand it, but then not applying the same to other things like murder proves your belief as being hypocritical.

But we do understand why murder is immoral.

Edit: Sorry it took so long to type this all out. My dad was breathing down my neck about how I should be doing homework right now.

 

[AltF4]

Quite to the contrary, Pluvia. It is a christian belief that everyone is born into sin.

Stewie, did you read my post a couple above yours? Well go ahead, then tell me again god really meant what he "said" in Leviticus.

EDIT: WOW! there was like 5 posts in the time it took me to write mine. Crazy

 

[mario-man]

The last thing i have difficulty grasping, is how people doubt evolution so. There is physical evidence of cavemen, and dinosaurs, so it all had to have happened, right?

Ive talked to people, who seem disgusted or disturbed by the fact or assumption that men were once monkeys, and I say "why?"

I mean all the gorillas at the zoo i used to visit, at least the head gorilla, had a Tv, couch, swing, and about 6 female apes in his pen.. he was living the good life

I just think evolution is absolutely logical. Things end up in a new environment and have to adapt, they will, kind of like falcons in my area have adapted to city environments,

Okay, i'm not starting a flame war just a debate of sorts. Okay Gdorf4evr, if evolution is so "logical" then how do you explain that whales evolved from land mammals?? Think about it with an open point of view that you could POSSIBLY be wrong. Not saying you are or not, just don't be biased when you consider this. In order for a whale to survive, it has to have a tail to swim with correct? ok, so whatever land mammal it was before that also had to have 2-4 legs in order to survive correct again? So, how does a creature in the middle of the "evolution" from land mammal to whale survive without it's tail or inversely without it's legs since they are "evolving" into the other? meaning, that the old ones have to disappear SLOWLY OVER TIME?? Same with a rodent evolving into a bat. The rodent has four legs, but the bat has two legs and two "hands" in it's wings which have very long digits. In order for the rodent to survive since it's in the middle of the evolutionary transition, it CANNOT have "fingers" that are very long because it could not run or even hunt with such long fingers. Explain this plz.




I also need to say these things which are not related to this. God does NOT hate gays or anyone else for that matter. It's just this way though, God made things a certain way. Like man and WOMAN. he did it for a reason. because it is his right to do it that way cuz he's god and he wanted to make man and woman, not man and man. or woman and woman. Because he made it this way, he made it so that you could reproduce after your own kind wether it be human or animal. He NEVER wanted people to like/"love"/have sex with people of their same gender. Two men cannot produce children, as neither can two women. there MUST be one of each in order for this to happen. Just think at it logically and not even including god in it. If the whole world is gay, then there are no more children and thus eventually, the world will depopulate. God does NOT hate ANYONE. He just hates the thing that one is doing, because it is not how he created things to work. Like gravity is something which he created to keep us from floating off of our planet into space where we would die of either starvation or suffocation or shock or whatever. He made man and woman in order to have more and more of the kind of beings(humans/animals) which he created.


I need to say this in clarification. You would probably call me a "christian", but believe me, I'm quite different from what you're most likely stereotyping me as. I need to say that some of you are partially right in saying that "religion" is bad for the world. Guess what, IT IS BAD!! "Religion" is a bunch of manmade laws and principles that were created either on purpose or not, and have given certain people power or "authority" which they are not supposed to have. God is God. They are not God. GOD is God. There are a TON(as in, A MASSVE TON) of people who are "christian" but take things in the Bible out of context. that is to say, certain verses are quoted back and forth, upside down, and even turned multicolored. BUT, those same verses mean almost nothing like what they would make you think that they mean. Like, way over 3/4 of the New Testament in the Bible are letters, but they take ONE verse and quote as efore stated and sayy that it means one thing. However, if I sent you a letter and you took one sentence from it and based something really important off of it, and it didn't even relate to that thing that you're doing?? C'mon peoplez!! That would be stupid wouldn't it? They do the same thing in the "churches" (btw, the PEOPLE are the church, NOT the buildings. a "church" building is NOT the house of God. He lives inside the people who trust him, thus making them the house of God.) "Christianity is NOT supposed to be a "religion", but it has become one which is why I don't like be associated with it. It is SUPPOSED to be a RELATIONSHIP with your daddy God who created the universe. This being that you love him, talk with him and so on, not a set of rules and regs that he did not even create. The ONLY command that Jesus essentially gave, was to love. Not do certain things or not do cetain things just love. Love God, love the people around you(not just your family and friends), and also to love yourself, but NOT in an arrogant way, just in confidence way and having goo self esteem. You can't love other people if you don't love yourself. (again, this does NOT mean arrogance or conceit). When you love, then certain things are just automatically going to happen (or not happen when it's a bad thing). Okay also, having a relationship with daddy God does NOT necesarily mean going to church every week and on wednesdays. In fact, if you've been reading this post, then you know that you might actually be better off not going, because of it becoming a religious building. As long as you love God and want to know him (trust me, he's sooooooooo awesome. you gotta try him for yourself. I mean, he's always there to talk to you[yes, ppl can talk to god, and he talks back even. pretty tight stuff I know], he'll comfort you when you feel down, plus he WANTS to be with you. What else do you need? The creator OF THE UNIVERSE wants to be with you and spend time with you. How awesome is that?!?!) then he will begin to tell you things and he'll begin to tell you that he loves you if you'll listen for him to, and he'll give you things cuz he wants to(not because you earned them with your "good works", but because he WANTS to see you happy cuz he loves you and created you), he'll even lead you throughout your life and keep you safe. CAN YOU BEAT THAT!!!!!


Seriously guys, becaue "christianity" has become a religion, it is now looked on with disgust practically throughout the whole world. Now God is a set of rules and if you don't follow them flawlessly, then you're going to hell?!?! NOT SO AT ALL!! And god is now sitting upstairs with a bat waiting to blast you when you screw up?!?! WTC!!! NEVER!!!! He is love. not loving(though that IS included in the package). But he IS love. If you truly love someone, then it could not happen unless God existed, because he is love. If you screw up, he's not gonna belt you with some BB gun or something!! If you screw up, he wants to see you running back to his outstretched arms of forgiveness. When you do something wrong, it hurts him inside. He doesn't start laughing cuz now he gets to punish you. He WANTS you to return to a close relationship with him again. HE LOVES YOU!!!! HE DOES NOT WANT TO SEE YOU MESS UP!!! He wants to see you do the right things according to how he set things up. ie. man with woman, no taking what does not belong to you(or wanting to) everyone hears those, but it's noe even that complicated. Just love with his kind of love(looking out for others, not wanting to hurt them etc...). that's the only TRUE law. The Beatles had it near right with their famous song "all you need is love", though they meant it a different way.


Alright like I said, I'm not even close to your stereotype of me so...don't put me in a box plz. I'm just trying to renew God's reputation and how the whole world views him, since it's been all scewed up by religion. thx for reading this extensive post

 

[Eor]

While I disagree with you about the "it's bad because it's bad" part, as God can decide whatever He wishes as He did create everything, I do agree with you on everything else.

Unless I'm mistaking your quote, it seems to me like you're saying god decided homosexuality was bad because he felt like it, therefore it's immoral and we should all follow it.

If you're asking me why I dont go around bludgening homosexuals, take a look at the incident between Jesus and the adulteress. Under the Law, she should have been stoned to death right there in front of him. Jesus was God, justice should have been served right then and there. But Jesus didn't condemn her and instead successfully released her, telling her to "immediately leave her life of sin".

Then the bible is hypocritical, which should tell you to not follow it literally at all

I dont really think I have a clear answer that will satisfy you, but I will try. Israel was God's Holy nation, set appart from the heathens. Christians are meant to be in the world, sharing the gospel with the hope of converting others. It's really a different situation. It says in the Bible (cant find verse right now) that believers should not have any right to judge non-believers. Christians can bring each other's faults to each other's attentions, but the responsibility of morality only falls within themselves. Judging those outside is God's responsibility.

Then why would the Bible mentioned slaughtering heathens and non-christians if it's God's ability? Again, this is biblical hypocrisy. You can't show me one quote, then another quote from the same passage, and try to convince someone they're both true. It's called Doublethink, and the term was created by Orwell to showcase the ways a goverment could control the population. This is what the Religious Right is doing. God is full of love, yet hates heathens. But Jesus didn't kill the adulterer, but Jesus also followed all the old laws. This is contradictory.

But we do understand why murder is immoral.

God has committed genocide several times in the Bible, asked his followers to kill entire cities, and, in his book of perfection, called on people to kill non-believers.

You haven't answered my question at all if your post, all you did was pull up Bible quotes which added nothing to the argument at hand. Why do you follow parts, but not others?

Edit:

Okay, i'm not starting a flame war just a debate of sorts. Okay Gdorf4evr, if evolution is so "logical" then how do you explain that whales evolved from land mammals?? Think about it with an open point of view that you could POSSIBLY be wrong. Not saying you are or not, just don't be biased when you consider this. In order for a whale to survive, it has to have a tail to swim with correct? ok, so whatever land mammal it was before that also had to have 2-4 legs in order to survive correct again? So, how does a creature in the middle of the "evolution" from land mammal to whale survive without it's tail or inversely without it's legs since they are "evolving" into the other? meaning, that the old ones have to disappear SLOWLY OVER TIME?? Same with a rodent evolving into a bat. The rodent has four legs, but the bat has two legs and two "hands" in it's wings which have very long digits. In order for the rodent to survive since it's in the middle of the evolutionary transition, it CANNOT have "fingers" that are very long because it could not run or even hunt with such long fingers. Explain this plz.

Land animals evolved from Amphibious animals, and everything in your post shows a great lack in the understand of Evolution. It has been scientifically proven, anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar or a fraud. I'm not going through each and every point you bring up, because you don't bring up any valid points. It's the same as if I asked by Christian's can't go magic, the Bible never mentions it, and so by me thinking that it's a reason against Christianity just shows I have no idea what I'm talking about. But to be basic, a horse doesn't evolve into a whale, a rat doesn't evolve into a bat. Life started with less diversity then there is now, and evolved into modern species. A whale never had legs, nor did any of it's ancestors.

Talkorigins.org is a great website that breaks it down and explains evolution in basic terms.

 

[Banjodorf]

See above post

 

[frankisvital]

There are three kinds of people in this world.

There are those who take their respective religious texts literally or other religious fanatics.

There are those who believe that everyone who can possibly even consider the existence of God must be one of the first group.

Then there are sensible people, people who choose to believe or to not believe and don't feel the need to convert others or make them feel bad, stupid or weak.



Religion has served countless purposes throughout history, and while it's caused many problems, I have a hard time believing we'd be where we are today without it. Even without counting the very numerous societal benefits, religion serves as a motivator and source of hope for many people. Just because you draw your strength from somewhere else doesn't give you the right to spit on those who turn to spirituality.

On the flip side, religious people should refrain from attempting to "save" others. It's obnoxious and it sends the wrong message, despite what are often the best of intentions. Most people are, in general, good people, and that includes atheists.

Whales have the vestiges of leg bones because they evolved from land mammals. They've also got finger bones, and the bone structure of the flipper is very similar looking to a human hand.

I feel that, in the interests of disclosure, I consider myself a lapsed Catholic. I believe there is a God, and I believe there is a heaven that all good people, not just the baptized or the believers, go to. I believe that the Bible, ESPECIALLY the Old Testament (the one that causes all the problems) is meant to be read as an allegory or something of the sort, but never ever literally.

We need to learn to at least tolerate other beliefs, and sometimes that includes the lack thereof.

 

[mario-man]

read my above edit if you haven't already^^^

 

[Crimson King]

Communism itself, as written by Marx in the Communist Manifesto was not supposed to be what it became.

It was supposed to be a government in which everyone was truly equal, literally, which seems a bit drab, but its not evil.

It was turned into something evil, by Stalin for one who killed millions of people, giving Marx's idea a bad name.

Famous quote "If one does not learn from history, they are doomed to repeat it"

No, communism is definitely evil. I rather be unique and poor under capitalism, than the same as everyone else... and poor. Communism does not work in theory at all, as many claim, because people are NOT created equally. I am better than you at something. Someone is better than me. You are better than someone, etc. If you are better than anyone, you cannot be equal, thus communism fails.

 

[mario-man]

No, communism is definitely evil. I rather be unique and poor under capitalism, than the same as everyone else... and poor. Communism does not work in theory at all, as many claim, because people are NOT created equally. I am better than you at something. Someone is better than me. You are better than someone, etc. If you are better than anyone, you cannot be equal, thus communism fails.

But, would we not all be equal because each one has strengths and weaknesses. Umm....you're saying that since you can most likely own me at smash, that you're a better persoon than me??

(not agreeing with communism. I think it is wrong too)

 

[Stewie1288]

Unless I'm mistaking your quote, it seems to me like you're saying god decided homosexuality was bad because he felt like it, therefore it's immoral and we should all follow it.

This is religion in a nutshell. God says it, we don't understand it. It's faith based. Belief without proof.

I'm working on a much better post, because admittedly you've posed questions I can't answer. Hopefully they'll help me learn a little more about myself. Thanks.

 

[DaBearX]

Haha where to start.

Well first I'm an agnostic (I think). I personally admire peoples ability for faith in religion sometimes I wish I had it myself (oddly enough I realized this when I saw the movie "Saved"), but alas I do not. To address the OP I don't know (typical agnostic sentiment...) that religion has brought anything good that could not have otherwise been gotten without it besides faith itself. Similarly, I would not say that religion has brought about anything bad that would not have otherwise come about without it.

I don't wanna get too long winded (and I haven't done much research) but taking wars for instance; I believe that all wars can be linked to a desire for some resource (land, raw materials, people, etc). Wars that would appear to have strong religious groundings are simply using religion as a way to influence a number of people for a cause. Religion is not the only agent effective as a control mechanism for people (governments, language, and culture come to mind) so in the absence of religion I think other agents would just become more popular for influencing large groups of people.

Now I said faith was a good thing to come out of religion, but I don't even know that that is true (consider that faith may be the main reason that religion can be used as a control mechanism, which is not necessarily good). This is likely because I don't believe in a universal right or wrong, only local right and wrong.

Lastly, to address the OP. For me, something (locally) good that came out of religion that had not come about otherwise, are great stories. I personally love mythology especially when it concerns deities (I'm particularly fond of North mythology). While great stories would exist without religion, not great stories about gods (I'm sure you can see why), and those are some of the most interesting stories I've heard.

 

[PaperDream]

*applauds frankisvital for last post*

In general though, I think people tend towards the path of least resistance. I think that if people started to look at things this way more, it'd be a lot easier on everyone. I think this explains a lot of behavior throughout the world. And I don't mean for it to be condescending either. It's just that whatever helps you survive, be it physically, emotionally, mentally, socially, academically, or in some other way, that's probably the path you'll take.

I had a really good example with homosexuality, but then I realized my whole argument assumes that sexuality isn't something people choose (and apparently there are people who think you choose your sexuality), and I don't want to debate with anyone right now. I'm pansexual by the way (it's a lot like bisexuality).



~~~
And as for communism, I think a lot of you are confusing the idea that everyone is equal with communism. The core idea behind communism is to have a classless society, where the wealth is shared among the people so that you don't have 10% of the population controlling 40% of the money. The idea that everyone is equal isn't communist (although I think most communists would agree with it), even in America you get the idea of everyone being equal (with liberty and justice for ALL....)

And communism isn't exactly the cause of Stalin's killings. That's like saying capitalism is the source of the millions of ***** that occur every year in America. That reasoning sounds like this: There's a lot of **** in America, and America is capitalist, therefore capitalism must cause ****. It just doesn't work. Just because the USSR was communist when those things happened, doesn't mean communism caused them.

 

[Smo]

I am a Christian. And if you think Christians are weak minded, then you're wrong. Christians get mocked and ridiculed for believing in God. We get called things like "The God-bummer", "Jesus" and stuff like that. So to actually still live for God when you get called all this is not weak.

Now, I don't like to think of religion as a "club" to be a shelter for the weak. Religion is not a club. If it were up to me, religion wouldn't be a word, because it suggests a group of people following a book. It's all about having a relationship with the creator of the universe. To be saved by him. Not just having a book and a club and following it.

An Athiest will never understand, but when you say "Religion does nothing for the world"... it's like asking people not to have this relationship. You could take away the church, the bible and everything, but you would still have Jesus and those who choose to follow him.

Mario man hit the nail on the head.


And asking us not to save people people is not good. We do it as an act of love. But I do believe there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Being obnoxious is not on. But if I invited my friend to church, or to a youth group... am I doing wrong? I'm giving him an opportunity to think about things. Not forcing them on him.

Like I'm going on a Christian holiday at the end of the year. I asked my non-Christian girlfriend if she wanted to come, and she didn't. I'm not gonna force her.


And why do people keep going on about homosexuality as the non-failing "God is evil" thing? Every rule and guideline God placed is there for a reason.

"Don't murder" - cos we'll run out of people and it's hateful
"Don't steal" - it's not nice
"Don't have promiscuous sex" - you might end up with a baby you don't want and/or AIDS
"Don't disrespect your parents" - or you might be kicked out the house
"Don't blaspheme" - you're using my name as a swear word, which upsets me
"Don't have homosexual sex" - if everyone were doing it, we'd run out of people.

God doesn't hate homosexuals. Certain Christians might, but God doesn't. He just put a guideline in place and hoped that people would follow it.

 

[KingJiggyWiggy]

Religion is based on faith. Science's Evolution is based on faith. Guess what? WE'RE ALL ****ING HYPOCRITES.

 

[Tryptomine]

I am a Christian. And if you think Christians are weak minded, then you're wrong. Christians get mocked and ridiculed for believing in God. We get called things like "The God-bummer", "Jesus" and stuff like that. So to actually still live for God when you get called all this is not weak.

Ah, it always amuses me when members of the largest organized religion in the history of the world complain that they're the ones be persecuted.

Religion is based on faith. Science's Evolution is based on faith. Guess what? WE'RE ALL ****ING HYPOCRITES.

Actually evolution is based on observable data and logic. But hey, same thing right?

 

[KingJiggyWiggy]

Yeah actually Smo is right because the *******s in this world are trying to make the name "Jesus" a bad word.

No. You never saw things evolve, you never saw them change, you never saw birds remove their beaks for the purpose of speaking. You never saw God either. Its all faith.

 

[Tryptomine]

No. You never saw things evolve, you never saw them change, you never saw birds remove their beaks for the purpose of speaking. You never saw God either. Its all faith.

That's a joke, right?

Alright, I think I can help here a bit. Bear with me a moment.

1. Genetic mutations occur in animals, correct? For example, cats normally have five toes on each paw, but some have a genetic mutation that causes them to have six or even seven toes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat#Legs)

2. Suppose the cat's extra toes let them hunt better, or escape from predators better then regular five-toed cats. This would allow them to live longer and breed more, correct?

3. Suppose when those cats breeded, their genes for the extra toes is passed on to their offspring, resulting in even more extra toed cats. This is certainly possible, correct?

4. Eventually, the extra toed cats superior hunting and survival abilities would lead them to outnumbering regular, five-toed cats. Possibly even replacing them completely. Correct?

Right there, in four steps, I just proved to you natural selection, adaption and evolution.

Natural selection is the process where certain traits, such as the cat's extra toes, allow a mutated animal to live longer and breed more.

Adaption is when an animal gains a benecial trait such as the extra toes.

Evolution is the accumilation of thousands of beneficial traits over a number of years (usually in the millions).

Q.E.D.

 

[Blackadder]

Yeah actually Smo is right because the *******s in this world are trying to make the name "Jesus" a bad word.

No. You never saw things evolve, you never saw them change, you never saw birds remove their beaks for the purpose of speaking. You never saw God either. Its all faith.

We never saw things evolve, but we have a many many signs that point to it being the logical answer to how things have come to be via our laws of science. We didn't see it first hand, but we have found bones that have been linked as our ancestor’s.

As for the whole God deal, we have very little proof, unless you count word of mouth or the bible.
Both of which (In my opinion) can be very unreliable.

Sure, with Science faith is needed, as with God, but we do have near proof of evolution.

EDIT:
Read the above post for a better rebuttle to what you said, Wiggy. I feel so small now...

 

[KingJiggyWiggy]

Of all the sources in the world you give me that piece of **** called wikipedia, the peoples encyclopedia?

What you showed me is only an idea (why will cats hunt better with extra toes? not like it matters though).

I'm not saying that I don't believe that humans didn't evolve from monkeys, but there is no proof. All there is is a relation that humans have to monkeys (like bones). But no one has a time machine to actually witness a monkey morph into a human which stands taller, and upright.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Of all the sources in the world you give me that piece of **** called wikipedia, the peoples encyclopedia?

What you showed me is only an idea (why will cats hunt better with extra toes? not like it matters though).

I'm not saying that I don't believe that humans didn't evolve from monkeys, but there is no proof. All there is is a relation that humans have to monkeys (like bones). But no one has a time machine to actually witness a monkey morph into a human which stands taller, and upright.

*Common Ancestor

We didn't evolve from any modern creature. Just our common ancestor who shared the same Genus pool.

"Monkeys" as we know them now, do not.

And it's not that random Tryptomine. It's like how people from different countries have different traits, such as someone from Siberia has a wider shaped jaw for eating meat. Or everyone in Africa is Black.

Just over millions of years, eventually you are going to look much different, though you never change your Genus, not completely.

 

[Tryptomine]

Of all the sources in the world you give me that piece of **** called wikipedia, the peoples encyclopedia?

I didn't think a source was actually necessary, I thought the toe mutation in cats was fairly common knowledge. I put that in there just for the hell of it, besides, I don't think Wikipedia is as bad as some people like to complain it is, but that is another argument entirely.

What you showed me is only an idea (why will cats hunt better with extra toes? not like it matters though).

What I showed is a logical argument, or a thought experiment, kind of like Shrödinger's Cat. Though if a person is having trouble grasping basic principles of evolution I doubt they would understand quantum mechanics.

I'm not saying that I don't believe that humans didn't evolve from monkeys, but there is no proof. All there is is a relation that humans have to monkeys (like bones). But no one has a time machine to actually witness a monkey morph into a human which stands taller, and upright.

x = y
y = 10

What does x equal then? 10? How do you know? There's nothing stating that x equals ten.

You're confusing logic and faith.