Recovery Tier List - Currently: Up-B Recoveries

[SuSa]

When responding, please use the following outline to make your information neat, organized, and easy to find and read:

*Character icon* (eg; :snake:)
Character:

[U][B]Pro's of recovery[/B][/U]:

[U][B]Con's of recovery[/B][/U]:

Which recovery:

Rank:

1. Everything seen here is debatable, and everything has its scenarios.
(eg; Some recoveries may be deemed "better" or "worse" depending who the opponent is. Someone with a spike will greatly hurt DK or Bowser's recoveries while a character lacking a spike will not.)

2. The "Tier List" is unofficial, and is several lists.

3. Characters that have multiple recovery options will be on multiple lists.

4. The reasons why something is so high/low will be listed. This may help those who think "but xx should be higher!" notice that they are wrong. - They may only be thinking of the "good" parts of the recovery. Not things like "if Pit gets hit once, he's dead".

5. A recovery is anything that is viable. Marth's side-b, Ice Climbers B, etc. Are considered "midair stalls". While they do help, in most scenario's its insignificant and only a small help. You cannot recover with these moves solely on their own - not viable.

6. Anything that requires an item or projectile is not counted. (eg; Snake using C4. (it may be on stage), Link/Toon Link's bombs blowing up, a character holding an explosive such as Snake's grenade or Link/Toon Link's bombs, etc.)

7. It is assumed all recoveries are done to the best of their ability. That means for Meta Knight's B, Ice Climbers Side-B, Luigi's Down-B, the best height and distance humanly possible is used. That means that no recovery is "screwed up" and therefore "worse".

8. You may notice with all the above rules, that can make this list not accurate. - Accuracy on something that can be close to an opinion is near impossible. We need standards to know which is the best/worst. Obviously Snake's C4 recovery method happens a lot, therefore he "should" be higher on this list. Too bad.

9. If you want your opinion taken seriously, state the recovery, it's Pro's and Con's, and where you think it should be placed. Your opinion will be matched against other players opinions and the recovery placed accordingly.

10. Because of Pit's special scenario, and things like Rob/Pit and needing their up-b's to "refresh" to last the full time. It's assumed that the recovery lasts the maximum time, and Pit gets a handicap on the list for "if he gets hit, he can't recover". While its assumed "perfect conditions", Pit's "handicap" in his recover greatly affects it.

11. Thing's like Luigi's 'misfire' are taken into account as a Pro, if you can think of other examples let me know.

12. If a move can be charged, to be fair with Pit/Rob's "maximum" recovery, it is assumed that it is fully charged. (This being because the only "charge" moves that I know of move horizontally, therefore being lower doesn't really help it if it is charged.

13. If you think any of the above are unfair, talk to me about it. (I know some people will try to debate "rules" like 10, 11, and 12...)

14. Read 1-13 again, make sure you understand it.

Fun Note:
I am not starting this list with any "pre-made" data gathered or decided by myself, except for glides. That is because the glides are actually... pretty standard.

This means, start giving me info and reasons.

Funner note:
All information is pretty much copy+pasted from posts. If I need to do editing to it, I will. The major thing that will change from the information given in posts is in rankings, but that won't happen until every character is listed. If you can think of more Pro's / Con's let me know either via the thread or PM.

________________

I'm getting lost:

Index

• Up-B Recovery
• Side-B Recovery
• Down-B Recovery
• B Recovery
• Tether Recovery
• Jumping
• Horizontal
• Vertical
• Overall
• FAQ
• Recent Updates

____________________

Up-B Recovery

S rank


Sonic Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Invincibility during ascent that lasts shortly after it activates to about half the total height gained.
• Ability to airdodge immediately after invincibility frames are over gives a very large invulnerability period.
• Possibly the fastest vertical acceleration of any recovery or attack and one of the highest vertical gains.
• Ability to extend the horizontal distance with an aerial or airdodge after spring, mixed with Sonic's high aerial movement speed mean he can travel huge distances horizontally.
• Ability to attack out of spring can deter edgeguarders.
• If you hit him out of spring with a spike and attempt to edgehog Sonic, he can still footstool jump off an edgehogger's head to recover.

Con's of recovery:

• No auto sweetspot on ledge makes recovering from very low unsafe and it vulnerable to being spiked, grabbed and due to the grab release KO option
• Vs characters with large grab range if you recover low you generally have to either airdodge or try to space an aerial to hit them and not get grabbed.
• If someone edgehogs you while you fall past them after using spring, if they time the invincibility frames right, you can't footstool them to recover.

ROB Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Gains the longest distance (not including those with glides)
• Does not leave in freefall
• Can attack out of
• Can be wavebounced to recover quickly from a failed gimp

Con's of recovery:

• Can't air-dodge
• Fuel can run out leaving ROB helpless even if hit again.

Mr. Game and Watch Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Initial upB: Great vertical rise, can be angled, 5 frames of invincibility, surprising priority that has serious potential to stage spike edgehoggers, performing an aerial or special immediately fast falls it, offers survivability by meteor canceling at lower percents, has a windbox that pushes enemies up and off, and auto grabs the ledge.
• Parachute: Massive horizontal drift, easy to change directions on the fly, can be canceled into aerials/specials or dropped normally (allowing G&W to footstool edgehoggers), doesn't leave G&W in a freefall, doesn't remove his second jump if not used, and getting hit by a windbox gives back his upB.

Con's of recovery:

• Suffers landing lag when landing at the very peak of the up-B
• Windbox may keep enemies close if angled inwardly.

A rank


Pikachu Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Quick and safe.
• Has 2 parts, you can choose to use 1 or both.
• Angle can be altered for both dashes making it very difficult to predict.
• Distance covered by this recovery both horizontally and vertically is one of the best in the game.
• Recovery counts as an attack which will poke off edgehoggers who don't have invincibility frames.

Con's of recovery:

• Leaves in helpless afterwards
• Angles can be messed up easily due to sensitivity
• Can be predicted and hit out of.

Ice Climbers Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Long range
• Nana can edgehog, or secure the edge for Popo
• Has great knockback if it lands a hit
• Nana has invincibility frames
• Can be used from large distances as long as the Ice Climbers are synced.
• Fast travlling after startup.

Con's of recovery:

• Popo is left helpless until reaches ledge
• If it hits whilst recovering, Popo may end up falling to his death
• Easy to edgehog.
• Without Nana, it is greatly nerfed and borderline useless.
• Slow startup speed compared to many Up-B's

Snake

Pro's of recovery:

• Cypher Armour - Moves that don't do 7% or more will not knock him out of recovery
• If knocked out, Snake can use it again.
• Good vertical and horizontally.
• Can blow self up with C4 or Grenades to use it again. (Does not affect rank)
• Can choose to end early or later.
• Doesn't put into helpless

Con's of recovery:

• Easy to predict recovery path
• Easy to spike out of, since you are left pretty helplessly until you can recover.
• Easy to edgeguard unless you recovery really high.
• Moves slowly unless used right after a second jump.
• Using aerials or specials puts you into a fall where you cannot use up-b again.
• If grabbed from Cypher, and not attacked, you can fall to your death.
• Will not sweetspot ledge.
• Recovering safely often has you blowing yourself up. (Does not affect rank)

B rank


Peach

Pro's of recovery:

• Parasol covers good vertical height
• Has a lot of hitboxes around her body
• Has active hitboxes throughout the entire recovery
• Allows amazing horizontal movement when it reaches the apex of it's height
• Long pole helps protect from attacks from above (some spikes, etc)
• Cannot be properly edgehogged well because the top of the Parasol will always hit the opponent off the ledge and Peach will grab it immediately depending on their percent, how much invincibility they have, etc.
• You have the option of moving in any direction you want to to avoid attacks (except up)

Con's of recovery:

• Has nice vertical recovery, but not the best
• If you get spiked, don't expect on recovering
• Can be spiked out of even when the top is above her if done right
• Slow falling speed works against her as well since she's more open to attacks
• If you Parasol the wrong way, you have to tap down to make her free fall (this makes you lose some height)

Zero Suit Samus Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Very Fast.
• Can be used multiple times without entering helpless state.
• Can Tether from a very wide angle. (almost 45 degrees on either side of vertical as long as the stage is not in the way)
• Can be used in conjunction with a jump for a 40-50% boost in jump height. This is also true for footstool and flipstool jumps.
• Can be B-reversed (wavebounced?) for a horizontal boost. Although, this is rare.
• Useful attack, the tip can spike people who stay on the edge too long and it's fast enough to tether afterward.

Con's of recovery:

• Does not increase character height by itself (big con!)
• Easy to edgehog if it is exclusively relied upon. (This can be mitigated with use of her other recovery moves)
• ZSS is vulnerable while hanging on a tether before she has reached the edge

Zelda Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Very long distance (can recover vertically from off-screen on Battlefield)
• Can be angled in many ways, meaning you have amazing distance in all directions.
• Invincible and invisible during the teleport.
• Can sweetspot the ledge to become invincible throughout the move.
• Upon reappearing, has a fairly large hitbox that will clear the area around Zelda.

Con's of recovery:

• Edgehogging isn't difficult due to the recovery taking so long.
• Punishable if the reappearing attack doesn't connect.
• Characters like R.O.B. and Jigglypuff can hit you out of the fairly long start-up animation.
• Only goes in straight lines.
• Being forced to freefall as Zelda really sucks.

C rank


Ganondorf Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Very nice vertical height
• Both the grab part and the punch at the end can stage spike if the person is caught on the ledge without invincibility
• Can be controlled slightly, which prevents it from ever getting caught under the stage if used correctly
• Can be used again if connected with opponent

Con's of recovery:

• Predictable
• Easy to edgehog, especially by tethers
• Not enough distance to make up for getting hit away during it
• No priority if attacked from above
• If it hits the opponent and the opponent has a very fast aerial and is at a high percent, the aerial can hit as soon as the grab ends. This is pretty much an automatic gimp for characters such as Falco and MK, who can Dair Ganon to death.

Bowser

Pro's of recovery:

• Goes higher than it's sister recovery (DK's, which it will always be compared to).
• Has great priority
• 5 frames of invincibility in the start up that tapers of toward the end.
• A revolving multi-hit recovery that's hard to interrupt.

Con's of recovery:

• Only okay height
• Short horizontal distance compared to sister recovery (DK)

Mario Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Fastest Up-B in the game.
• It's invincible throughout the entire ascending animation.
• Can reach either higher or farther, depending on how you aim the control stick.
• It has decent distance, but it's nothing too impressive.
• Hard to edgehogg due to it's ability to stagespike and long duration.

Con's of recovery:

• Mediocre distance, it's only the equivalent of a second jump that attacks.
• Does not auto-ledgegrab if you overshoot the ledge.
• Easily edgehogged by tethers like Zamus, Samus, and Link.

Captain Falcon Information Post Information Post 2

Pro's of recovery:

• Grabs an opponent if close enough for an attack; landing the grab gives the player another Up B which can be indefinitely returned as long as an opponent can be grabbed.
• Can be reversed while continuing in the original direction which sends opponents out away from the stage if a grab is landed.
• Captain Falcon has a slight "teleport" which when combined with the moves fairly high priority will allow Falcon to go through potential gimp attempts and land the move.
• If the opponent is attempting to edge hog Falcon and runs out of invincibility frames, or the opponent is just off stage and close to the edge of the stage, Falcon will grab them and instantly stage spike them.

Con's of recovery:

• It's distance both vertical and horizontal leads a lot to be desired, the only reason it doesn't suck is the auto sweetspot improvement from Melee and 64.
• A predictable pattern lets people who can out prioritize the move keep Falcon away for as long as they want until Falcon finally dies.
• Slow move in terms of covering the distance it goes which makes it easier to quickly snap to the ledge for a hog than other recoveries.
• Hitbox is only in front, leaving back, above, and below vulnerable.
• Attack portion is not the entire move, making it only useful at closer ranges.

Ness Information Post Information Post 2

Pro's of recovery:

• When launched, travels fast and inflicts damage/knockback when in contact with an opponent.
• Has great range, can recover from bottom of the starter stages
• Will sweetspot ledge
• Can travel in any direction

Con's of recovery:

• Easily gimpable/absorabable.
• Long start up time.
• Will bounce off edge if aimed incorrectly.
• PKT can be canceled with a projectile or move.
• You can miss with PKT- leading to death.
• If you hit something, the length of PKT2 is shortened.
• Gives enough time to easily gimp Ness
• Any character can just jump into the PKT to cancel it.

D rank


Ike Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Super Armor frames for majority of startup.
• Semi-spikes.
• Can drag people off of the stage edge.
• Can screw over edgehogging attempts better then a lot of recoveries due to duration.
• Average vertical reach.
• Bigger ledge grab range if it hits someone.
• Can stage spike.

Con's of recovery:

• No ledge sweetspot until Ike goes down.
• SAFs don't last nearly long enough
• Ike's hurtbox extends right to the edges of the hitbox during the spinning part, if not slightly pass the hitbox.
• Easy to spike or screw over in general outside of edgehogging.
• Very minimal horizontal movement (a radius of the spinning sword at max, even less when moving backwards).

Squirtle Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Keeps him safe from the front or downward.
• Lasts a while.
• Given with how mobile Squirtle is, and the range of its "mouth", It can be somewhat unpredictable.
• It can be angled vertically or more horizontally.

Con's of recovery:

• Even though Squirtle has the front and under covered. He is vulnerable from the back and above.
• Prone to many things such as gimps and spikes.

Yoshi Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Can safely attack edgeguarders/edgehoggers.
• Gives Yoshi a slight boost both vertically and horizontally.
• Can be used five times before having to touch the ground.
• Due to Yoshi's air-speed, he really only needs to use this move instead of double-jumping.

Con's of recovery:

• The boosts obtained from this move get lower and lower the more you use it without touching the ground.
• Not good at recovering completely vertically.
• Makes recovery a bit predictable.
• Is completely vulnerable during the entire move.
• Momentum lowers a bit after using the move.
• Cannot sweetspot ledge.

Lucario Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Travels a very long distance with a massive edge sweetspot
• Ability to wall-cling out of extreme speed gives him a 3rd choice of landing on an stage with an edge (FD, Delfino, Yoshis Island: Brawl, Frigate)
• Can curve the flight path in any sort of shape to fly around edgeguard attempts
• Very low landing lag if Lucario lands extreme speed when angled into the ground at maximum distance

Con's of recovery:

• No hitbox on Extreme speed means edgehoggers can hang on ledge indefinitely with no risk of getting stage spiked or damaged
• No invincibility or high priority, any attack will knock him out of it
• Some landing lag if extreme speed is used above the stage level and not cancelled into the ground
• Some start up time and set distance means the timing and direction of extreme speed can be predicted and punished

Olimar Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Comes out fairly fast
• Large length
• Can double as an attack.
• The tether comes out fairly fast, making it harder for the enemy to edgehog.
• Seeks straight for the edge.
• With no Pikmin, ledge sweetspot is larger
• Pikmin can grab ledge at almost a 90 degree angle dependent on stage

Con's of recovery:

• Recovery is useless if enemy grabs edge, once enemy grabs the edge the tether will no longer seek for the edge and just go straight in an 45 degree angle.
• If you hit the opponent off the edge the tether shall not grab the edge.
• Pikmin have been known to separate, or die, and shorten the length of the recovery.
• Once the tether recovery is done, Olimar along with his pikmin fall down helpless.

E rank


Luigi

Pro's of recovery:

• Mediocre distance both vertically and horizontally

Con's of recovery:

• Horrible Priority
• Easy to spike out of if sweetspot is missed
• Easy to hit during
• No hitstun if not sweetspotted
• Leaves in helpless after a weird fall animation
• Laggy landing since you land on your head

Link

Pro's of recovery:

• Protects Link's sides to a degree

Con's of recovery:

• Horrible horizontally
• If hit with a weak attack, then use up-B, it loses almost all horizontal movement.
• Has poor vertical boost.
• Easy to spike Link out of.
• Easy to hit Link out of with any disjointed attack. (eg; Marth Fair)
• Being spiked, even at low %'s, often means death due to bad vertical recovery.
• Predictable recovery pattern
• Relatively slow recovery, and will not sweetspot ledge until later in recovery

Extreme Fail Tier
The only character to be on a list when the move doesn't do anything. Because everyone but this person has a useful Up-B in some way.


Jigglypuff

Pro's of recovery:

• ....

Con's of recovery:

• Gives no recovery
• Immobilizes you
• You fall to your doom.
• Cannot put airborne opponents to sleep.
• Easily spiked and hit out of.

____________________

Side-B Recovery

S rank

A rank


Ice Climbers Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• One of the greatest vertical distance recoveries, fast, harder to edgehog than others.
• Faster than the Climbers fast fall when used without mashing B, so can be safer to get back on stage when above it.
• Has decent horizontal distance as well.
• Pretty good priority.

Con's of recovery:

• Can only be used best with both climbers.
• They can can be hit out of hit
• Must be relatively close and synced.
• One ice climber is usually left free-falling if only one climber is hit.
• Vertical height is lessened if you hit an opponent

B rank

C rank

D rank

E rank


Ike Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• Moves relatively quick.
• Fairly strong knockback at higher %s.
• If it hits a edgehogger out of the invincibility frames, Ike will grab the ledge.
• Can charge up for more distance
• Can hold the charge as long as you want
• Still keep some horizontal momentum if you DJ -> QD.
• VERY occasionally it's a better choice then Aether (eg; against Marth who keeps trying to counter aether)

Con's of recovery:

• Extremely easy to gimp
• Slow coming into charge mode
• Any time you use Quick Draw to recovery, you could have double jumped to Aether instead
• Sound gives away that you are attempting to use Quick Draw

____________________

Down-B Recovery

S rank


A rank

B rank


Zero Suit Samus Information Post

Pro's of recovery:

• This move is invincible in frames 1 to 12 inclusive
• Does not leave ZSS in helpless state. Thus can be mixed with other recoveries
• Has a built in wall-jump (will happen 4 times if in an enclosed area)
• Has a strong, high-priority, spiking, sex-kick that makes opponents hesitate before attempting to gimp ZSS
• Good horizontal distance (3 small blocks), similar to her side-B
• Can somewhat increase horizontal survival in a manner similar to bucket braking (with much less success however, so it's a minor pro)
• Has a built in footstool jump (called the Flipstool) which can be triggered on any non-stage physical object and will travel the length of Battlefield horizontally or vertically. Can be activated on an edge-hogging character even if they are invincible.

Con's of recovery:

• When used far from the stage, does not give any increase in height
• Predictable arc that can be punished from above if used improperly
• Can only be used once
• If used while being hit upwards, this can actually make ZSS die earlier (minor con)

C rank


Meta Knight

• Small distance
• Can go any direction.
• Turns Meta Knight invisible

Wario

• Must be charged to be of any use
• Great vertically when fully charged
• Bad horizontally
• Can only be used sparingly.
• Can only be used "fully charged" 3-4 times in a full 8 minute match.

D rank


Luigi

• Can go great vertically
• Decent horizontally
• Can only be used once without touching ground.
• Cannot sweetspot ledge
• Poor priority

E rank

____________________

B Recovery

S rank


Sonic

• Can be used multiple times
• Homes on opponent
• Only shoots "one way" if missed (please correct me if wrong)
• Does not leave in helpless.
• Can be used to recover from underneath stage in some cases.

Meta Knight

• Has decent vertical recovery
• Great horizontal recovery.
• Leave's in helpless afterwards.

A rank


Jigglypuff

• Can be charged
• Shoots forward.
• Good horizontally and bad vertically.

B rank

C rank

D rank


Marth

• Can be charged
• Moves forward greatly. (Can just be aerial drifted rather then using this, but you can.)

E rank

____________________

Tether Recovery
Z-air, other tethers are on the other lists

First:


Samus

Longest of the four tethers.

Second:


Link

Medium length of the four tethers.

Third:


Toon Link

Second shortest of the four tethers.

Fourth:


Lucas

Shortest of the four tethers.

____________________

Glide Recovery
The 3 Gliders and the 1 Floater are in here.

First:


Pit

Quickest glide (I forget if it's Pit of MK. I have no wii, confirm please?)

Second:


Meta Knight

Neither quickest nor slowest of the 3 gliders.

Third:


Peach

I consider her "float" a "glide", to avoid giving her a "best" rank on a "float list". Pro's: Can stay still+move backwards. Con's: Cannot move up or down, cannot alter how long it lasts.

Third:


Charizard

Slowest of the glides

____________________

Jumping

Jumps are only counted for recovery, not from stage. So everyone has "1" recovery jump unless otherwise stated.
Multiple Jumps = 3 or more jumps (# = total jumps) (height = "bad/decent/good")


S rank

Jigglypuff -- Multiple jumps (5)

Kirby -- Multiple Jumps (5)

Meta Knight -- Multiple jumps (5)

King DeDeDe -- Multiple Jumps (4)

Pit -- Multiple Jumps (3)

Charizard -- Multiple Jumps (2)

A rank

B rank

C rank

D rank

E rank


Ganondorf - Bad Jumps

____________________


Horizontal Recovery
This list takes into account moves that can alter (Rob's Bair) horizontal momentum. It will also take into consideration moves like Magnet Pull after the list is done.

Important Information: Click Here



S rank


Meta Knight

• 6 jumps
• A glide
• Either Up-B (into 2nd glide), Side-B, or B

Pit

• Gliding
• Up-B
• Multiple jumps

Charizard

• Gliding

Jigglypuff

• 6 jumps
• Rising pound (side-B)
• Rollout
• Great aerial maneuverability.

Peach

• Being able to float
• Peach Bomber (Side-B)
• Parasol. (Up-B)

A rank

B rank

C rank

D rank

E rank

____________________

Vertical Recovery
Jump height (Yoshi=High, Charizard=Low), Up-B's, and later Advanced Techniques.

S rank

A rank

B rank

C rank

D rank

E rank

____________________


Overall Recovery
The best overall recoveries, where how they place in all the others determine how they place in here.

S rank

A rank

B rank

C rank

D rank

E rank

____________________

FAQ

Q:
Why do you skip ranks?

A:
Because information is still being fed, those ranks may be filled in, and after the list has all characters on it, the ranks will be evened out and the lower ranks trimmed off. Then it's just a matter of moving characters up or down in a list.

Q:
Why do some have 'ranks' and others have 'places'?

A:
That is because those 'places' would fit into 1 rank, no matter what information found.

____________________

Recent Updates
Lists:
Lists Started ------ 03-26-09
More lists added ------ 03-26-09
Started Down-B list------ 03-26-09
FAQ Added------ 03-26-09
Format Upgraded------ 03-28-09

Characters:
Peach = Charizard -- Tied for Third Place Glider------ 03-26-09
Wario < Zamus -- Down B------ 03-26-09
Falcon lowered -- Up-B ------3-28-09

 

[ShadowLink84]

Metaknights glide is the fastest of all three I believe while pit is a close second.

 

[SuSa]

Metaknights glide is the fastest of all three I believe while pit is a close second.

If a few more people back you up on this, I'll edit that.

It's been a long time (2~ months) since I've had my wii/brawl, so my memory may not be serving me well.

You're most likely right, but I want information double, and if not triple, checked. I don't want this 'list decided by people' to fail... like the past few recovery tier lists. That's why there's a lot of rules


EDIT:

This post is reserved until I find a way to move my post to #2.... <_<

 

[mofo_]

i hear pits is the fastest, while MKs is faster to turn (up /down) and charizard is just slowest

 

[B!squick]

I saw a vid of Charizard gliding under Temple. And when I say that, I mean the ENTIRE stage, from the top left most ledge to the top right most ledge. Does that count for something?

 

[SuSa]

i hear pits is the fastest, while MKs is faster to turn (up /down) and charizard is just slowest

I'm pretty sure the faster it is, the faster it "turns" up/down as well.

Either Pit or MK is first, and the other is a close second

I saw a vid of Charizard gliding under Temple. And when I say that, I mean the ENTIRE stage, from the top left most ledge to the top right most ledge. Does that count for something?

I do believe all 3 gliders can do that, so that counts for nothing.

 

[:mad:]

Would Olimar's pikmin count as a "B Recovery"?
Also, S rank for 'B' recovery goes to Meta Knight.

 

[brinboy789]

Would Olimar's pikmin count as a "B Recovery"?
Also, S rank for 'B' recovery goes to Meta Knight.

nado has great vertical recovery distance, but not so much for horizontal.

although i cant think of any B move that would otherwise conpensate for the best recovery xp

 

[SuSa]

Would Olimar's pikmin count as a "B Recovery"?
Also, S rank for 'B' recovery goes to Meta Knight.

Not everyone is on every list, I don't think I pointed it out. Sort of had to be inferred from my 'rule' of not counting things like Marth's Side-B.

Also, I think Meta Knight is the only one with a B recovery? (That I can immediately think of off the top of my mind)

 

[B!squick]

3GOD did some testing and found out every characters air speed. Should that come into consideration?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I don't see "Jump Recovery" on this list.

Do you hate Jiggs or something? Lol.

 

[Gindler]

I believe pit's glide is actually the most maneuverable. All I know is that he goes up alot faster than MK does, MK I can usually keep up with but pit just seems a bit quicker as far as top speed goes I have no idea

nado has great vertical recovery distance, but not so much for horizontal.

although i cant think of any B move that would otherwise conpensate for the best recovery xp

Yeah....just thought I'd let you know that you have vertical and horizontal mixed up. Vertical is Up/down and horizontal is side to side.


Oh and number 12 on the list....diddy's barrel rockets (UpB) require a charge you probably just forgot about it

 

[Red Arremer]

(eg; Some recovieres may be deemed "better" or "worse" depending who the opponent is. Someone with a spike will greatly hurt DK or Bowser's recoveries while a character lacking a spike will not.)

Bowser's recovery is not that easy to spike due to invincibility frames and super high priority. <_<

 

[SuSa]

3GOD did some testing and found out every characters air speed. Should that come into consideration?

Right now this is more about actual recovery moves, I plan to open it up to AT's (Lucas's Zap Jump/Magnet Pull comes to mind....) and more "in-depth" stuff like the characters air speed.

Can you link me to that thread? It will be a great thing to have in the OP, even if its not currently being used. (As many people already take this into small consideration, so the list won't change significantly from having this information. It may make Lucas a few higher, etc.

But what about "floatiness" if I care about air speed? Should Falcon/Falco be lowered while Peach/Zelda is higher?

I don't see "Jump Recovery" on this list.

Do you hate Jiggs or something? Lol.

*face palms* didn't take jumps into thought. I know many characters have multiple/higher second jumps then others. That will be added shortly.

I believe pit's glide is actually the most maneuverable. All I know is that he goes up alot faster than MK does, MK I can usually keep up with but pit just seems a bit quicker as far as top speed goes I have no idea

This is getting tricky to make proper judgement


EDIT

@ Spadefox

It happens, thats all I am saying. I secondary Bowser, and it does happen.

 

[TP]

Kirby has the second best B recovery, swallow MK. Diddy and Marth are third and fourth in some order. Ganon's Reverse-Reverse Warlock Punch has better horizontal speed than normal falling, and can be used for recovery if you start in the top corner. It should be on the bottom of that list.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Oh, and Marth's B-Move can recover. So can Sonic's.

Not sure on others though.

 

[B!squick]

Bowser's recovery is not that easy to spike due to invincibility frames and super high priority. <_<

^I forgot to bring that up. So this. A much better example would be, say, Pit.

I'll see if I can find that air speed thread for you. Also, Tethers should also have it's own list, I would think.

 

[SuSa]

Kirby has the second best B recovery, swallow MK. Diddy and Marth are third and fourth in some order. Ganon's Reverse-Reverse Warlock Punch has better horizontal speed than normal falling, and can be used for recovery if you start in the top corner. It should be on the bottom of that list.

Swallowing MK is "if your opponent is MK" and therefore doesn't count.

Diddy and Marth can be added.

Ganon is... eh...... I'll add it, but unless I'm given more facts it'll be the lowest.

 

[B!squick]

I saw a thread on the Shiek board where it was found out that exactly three FAirs move you forward one step. To little to count?

 

[TP]

Swallowing MK is "if your opponent is MK" and therefore doesn't count.

Diddy and Marth can be added.

Ganon is... eh...... I'll add it, but unless I'm given more facts it'll be the lowest.

Indeed, Ganon should be lowest. The move is rarely (if ever) used. I forgot Sonic's B, which is not as good as a fully charged shield breaker in my opinion.

As for total jumps... If you assume the standard is 2 jumps, Charizard has 3, Pit has 4, DDD has 5, and Kirby, MK, and Jiggs have 6. Everyone has one less midair jump than these numbers, so choose whichever of the two systems you want. HOWEVER, Charizard's 2 jumps are not better than certain single jumps. Yoshi, obviously, should be high on the list. DDD has the worst horizontal air speed in the game, so his 5 total jumps really aren't as impressive as they seem. Just throwing stuff out there.

 

[B!squick]

Here's 3GOD's thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952

Also, Ganondorf has the lowest second jump that I know of. It's more of a mid air flip than anything. I'll have more complete list for everything later.

 

[XienZo]

6. Anything that requires a "luck" scenario is not counted. (eg; Snake using C4. (it may be on stage), Link/Toon Link's bombs blowing up, a character holding an explosive such as Snake's grenade or Link/Toon Link's bombs, etc.)

I think that this could be overcome rather easily since there's likely around 5 recoveries that fall into this category, and it wouldn't be too hard to go over each one case-by-case, especially with ones like Snake's C4, where the player can easily keep the C4 from being used on the stage.

 

[|RK|]

Since ZSS is considered separate from normal Samus, why not put her at the top? She DOES have the best tether recovery...

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Wario is the only one who can recover with DownB that comes to mind. <_<

 

[deepseadiva]

Havokk, this is great.

Though Peach's float being categorized as a glide seems... odd. Float might need it's own category. I mean, you don't need to activate it with a move, and you can go backwards - as well as no-wards.

I dunno.

I'm thinking we also need Horizontal and Vertical lists in addition to Overall.

 

[Nibbles 2]

It's not true that MK has the only neutral-B recovery. Sonic's homing attack (neutral B) can be used to recover, if the opponent is close enough (if they're standing by the edge or they've jumped off the stage to intercept you, you can use the homing attack to move upward/horizontally toward them, thus aiding in your recovery). Plus, after you use it you're still able to perform your B moves (so you can HA again afterward, or use a spring or whatever).

 

[SuSa]

I saw a thread on the Shiek board where it was found out that exactly three FAirs move you forward one step. To little to count?

Way to small, and it was just showing that c-stick does not keep you in place.

Indeed, Ganon should be lowest. The move is rarely (if ever) used. I forgot Sonic's B, which is not as good as a fully charged shield breaker in my opinion.

As for total jumps... If you assume the standard is 2 jumps, Charizard has 3, Pit has 4, DDD has 5, and Kirby, MK, and Jiggs have 6. Everyone has one less midair jump than these numbers, so choose whichever of the two systems you want. HOWEVER, Charizard's 2 jumps are not better than certain single jumps. Yoshi, obviously, should be high on the list. DDD has the worst horizontal air speed in the game, so his 5 total jumps really aren't as impressive as they seem. Just throwing stuff out there.

Thanks for the information.

Here's 3GOD's thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952

Also, Ganondorf has the lowest second jump that I know of. It's more of a mid air flip than anything. I'll have more complete list for everything later.

I think that this could be overcome rather easily since there's likely around 5 recoveries that fall into this category, and it wouldn't be too hard to go over each one case-by-case, especially with ones like Snake's C4, where the player can easily keep the C4 from being used on the stage.

So you're saying I should make a list for 'self-helping' recovies? (TL, Snake, Link, and others if they exist?)

Since ZSS is considered separate from normal Samus, why not put her at the top? She DOES have the best tether recovery...

Read the Z AIR tether. Zamus does not have a Z AIR, but will be on the side-B and up-B lists.

Wario is the only one who can recover with DownB that comes to mind. <_<

Luigi and Meta Knight

Havokk, this is great.

Though Peach's float being categorized as a glide seems... odd. Float might need it's own category. I mean, you don't need to activate it with a move, and you can go backwards - as well as no-wards.

I dunno.

I'm thinking we also need Horizontal and Vertical lists in addition to Overall.

I will think about that, as that would cover air speed and jump height. Killing 2 lists with better names.

Also, giving something its own category for a list, seemed useless. So I considered it a glide...although it is a float.

It's not true that MK has the only neutral-B recovery. Sonic's homing attack (neutral B) can be used to recover, if the opponent is close enough (if they're standing by the edge or they've jumped off the stage to intercept you, you can use the homing attack to move upward/horizontally toward them, thus aiding in your recovery). Plus, after you use it you're still able to perform your B moves (so you can HA again afterward, or use a spring or whatever).

This has been discussed.

 

[Browny]

zss, mk and sonic can recover with dowm b too

on that note...

Sonic probably has the second best b-recovery since I think its far more useful than marths, if you were high enough to use shieldbreaker to recover, you could have just DI'd towards the stage and lived anyway lol.

his downb is actually very good as a recovery when used as a spinshot. Id go so far as to say its the best since its so fast and travels a very long way with no predictable start up and is very hard to punish since you do not fall into helpless state. ZSS could be argued better since its got the crazy spike + invinci frames but thats not necessarily useful in recovery when you need to cover a lot of distance. similar to how you wouldnt rate PKT2, its also very powerful with invinci frames obviously a ton more punishable lol

Side b can also travel a lot of distance and can be mixed up with a spinshot. You often dont even need to ever use sping as long as you side b towards the stage and then jump cancel over the edge. I dont know of too many characters id rate with a better side b to recovery. maybe IC's since its got such ridiculous priority lol.

Spring... its good but it probably still loses out to shuttle loop and G&W. even though SL doesnt go anywhere near as high, and you cant really include the glide aspect of SL as a consideration in upb since theres already a category for that. SL is just too good when yuo reverse SL gimp anyone who dares to touch you offstage lol

 

[B!squick]

More lists? Geez, I'll be typing out placement and thoughts for each all night, lol.

 

[XienZo]

So you're saying I should make a list for 'self-helping' recovies? (TL, Snake, Link, and others if they exist?)

Not neccesarily make a new list for them, but just keep them in mind for the överall list instead of just completely ignoring them since they're so few in number that it wouldn't be too big of a hassle to go over how often they can happen and average it out.

We can also do this with ROB and Pit's UP-B, like if roughly 20%(arbitrary) of the time, they do not have the full charge, we can just give them 80% the benefit of the up-B when we consider them.

 

[SuSa]

I am reading information but I will ask now.

Please tell me where you feel the character should be placed. Obviously, I won't place it where you say (most likely), but it will help in my judgement.


Peach = Charizard for glides.

Adding an "updates" to the bottom, so people know what I've updated recently, before, etc.

so far I see a lot of stuff about Sonic.

 

[TP]

Jiggs for worst Up B recovery. Yoshi for second worst.

I wanted to be the first to say it.

 

[XienZo]

What exactly is the point of the top up-B/jump/specifics recoveries? They seem like they're just technical stuff, and I'm not sure why someone would need to look that stuff up while the overall recovery list can help with match-ups and tier lists.

 

[Panix]

Jiggs for worst Up B recovery. Yoshi for second worst.

I wanted to be the first to say it.

Personally, I think wario's Up+B is worse then Yoshi's

Down B recoverys.

Snake for S rank down B recovery (mine jump)

Z suit for A rank (mind games+high dmg+knockback hit)

Meta Knight for B rank ( inv + mind games )

Bowser and yoshi for C ( Fastfalling, High dmg)


Just my opinions! (i know im forgetting alot of people Like C falc and stuff but hey)

 

[SuSa]

Jiggs for worst Up B recovery. Yoshi for second worst.

I wanted to be the first to say it.

Yah, I can pretty much agree. Except Solo-Mar Olimar (BTW: Assumed either 6 or 0 pikmin for list... make your own judgement for 1-5)

What exactly is the point of the top up-B/jump/specifics recoveries? They seem like they're just technical stuff, and I'm not sure why someone would need to look that stuff up while the overall recovery list can help with match-ups and tier lists.

Because we need that information to make an overall recovery list.

EDIT @ Panix

Normally down-b's for Yoshi/Bowser aren't used to RECOVER...and for now we're leaving out things like c4 jumping.... we can get all fancy and in depth and move people up or down later... it's more important to get the list finished then nitpick over small AT's and techniques and stuff that improve recovery, but often only situationally.

We're also talking RECOVERY, not damage output. ("Safety" can be an issue however, that comes later)

 

[B!squick]

Solo-mar UpB has about the same tether distance 2-3 Pikmin.

 

[XienZo]

Yah, I can pretty much agree. Except Solo-Mar Olimar (BTW: Assumed either 6 or 0 pikmin for list... make your own judgement for 1-5)

Nolimar gets massive ledge-grab range with no pikmin, and it lasts longer too, so it might be better than 6 in some ways.

Because we need that information to make an overall recovery list.

But do we really need to differenciate between upB and DownB and SideB and B?

 

[SuSa]

Solo-mar UpB has about the same tether distance 2-3 Pikmin.

He also doesn't suffer the weird fall-down lag to grab the edge if I'm not mistaken.

Nolimar gets massive ledge-grab range with no pikmin, and it lasts longer too, so it might be better than 6 in some ways.


But do we really need to differenciate between upB and DownB and SideB and B?

I know; and yes. Not everyone has each, and for some some are useless while another over-shadows it. -- but its still there, etc.

In depth, even if partly useless information, is better then not having it. - That's how I do things.


EDIT:

Before I get asked "why do you skip things like A Rank for down-b recoveries?" thats because not everything is 'concrete' or not really moving yet, things are still moving, and I'm still being fed information. Once the list is pretty much done, the lower ranks will be trimmed off and I will balance off the rankings as to try and have an equal amount of characters in each rank.

"How come some have rank, and others have 'place'?"

That is because those 'places' would fit into 1 rank, no matter what information found.....

EDIT2:

I'll lower Wario's fart, valid points.

 

[ph00tbag]

ZSS's Flip Jump is actually pretty decent for vertical recoveries if you use it properly. If they don't edgehog, you can sweetspot at the peak, which gives a lot of height, and if they do edgehog, you can Flipstool off of them, and get even more height.

 

[XienZo]

I'm going to argue that Wario's fart is lower than ZSS's since it can only be used 4-6 times a match if you go for the full 8 minutes, and its telegraphed when you can use it. ZSS's flip kick can be used consistantly, has invincibilty IIRC, and doesn't have that bad of lag at the end so you're not going to die if you still need to tether afterwards. If anything, Wario's DownB goes with the same category as Snake's C4 since they're situational (the fart much more than the C4).