Recovery discussion, good and bad

[John12346]

Well, strictly speaking, Snake has B-reversal Nades, and GaW has Dair, but I guess that's beside the point...

Maybe my qualm over the no-special fall UpBs is just the absurdly short amount of time the characters have to wait before being allowed to perform another action, idk...

 

[The_NZA]

But that's integral to both snake and Gnw's play. Also, they are still giant sitting ducks when doing it (although maybe some characters dont have good options to punish their ascent).

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, I think this thread can be summarized:

1. Give Diddy more reasonable landing lag on UpB
2. Sonic needs to either A) not be able to airdodge out of Spring, B) not be able to act out of Spring unless it's started from the ground, C) not be able to act out of Spring at all.
3. Fox/Falco need more reasonable landing lag on UpB but we all know that's not going to happen.

Cut, print it.

 

[_R@bid_]

I'd add that a few recoveries on the other end of the scale could be buffed a bit-especially Ness- but yeah, that's pretty much it. All other characters with good recoveries actually have designs that that makes sense for.

 

[John12346]

Well, I can understand the precedent by not touching those recoveries, I just felt like pointing out that they don't seem to fit in relation to what the rest of the game has to offer, at least to me, anyway. Just an observation...

One thing, though... something being integral to someone's gameplay isn't necessarily an instant bar from it being something to change or remove. As I've said multiple times before, even in the worst case scenario where removing something from a character causes them to become unviable or lose their gameplay style, then they could be rebalanced, changed, or buffed in other ways to compensate. You all should keep it in mind the next time the topic of potential character changes comes up, because I don't think people truly grasp how powerful a community-editable game like Project:M can be for balancing a game out.

With that line of logic in mind, I still think that no-special fall recoveries in a game like this are crazy, but I guess I'll drop it for now, since everyone else seems to be in agreement of the opposite...

 

[_R@bid_]

I agree that it can be okay to change integral parts of a character when necessary, but there is no need to change no special fall up specials when they've shown no imbalance so far. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

 

[JayMan-X]

Alright, I think this thread can be summarized:

1. Give Diddy more reasonable landing lag on UpB
2. Sonic needs to either A) not be able to airdodge out of Spring, B) not be able to act out of Spring unless it's started from the ground, C) not be able to act out of Spring at all.
3. Fox/Falco need more reasonable landing lag on UpB but we all know that's not going to happen.

Cut, print it.

For Sonic, the only thing they should do to UpB is remove the invincibility frames on it.
What should be done is that they should make it so Side B doesn't gain as much height as it does, because honestly having all your B moves be viable recovery options is really REALLY Dumb.

 

[The_NZA]

The only way Ness's should be buffed is the following: hitting someone with your up b should not put you in special fall. Only doing pkt2 should lead to special fall. I DONT think they should make it like lucas's because Ness's like to use it in the way it currently exists. Also, someone jumping into ness's upb should be a weakness. However, it shouldn't = an instant death. Rather, put a tiny cool down on ness's up b, so that if he hits an enemy with it, he sinks a little bit as he tries to do the next one.

 

[_R@bid_]

I'd like PKT1 still to to end if it hits someone, but have transcendent priority so projectiles or clanking wont stop him. That way, at least the opponent is punished for gimping him that way.

 

[a vehicle]

I'd like PKT1 still to to end if it hits someone, but have transcendent priority so projectiles or clanking wont stop him. That way, at least the opponent is punished for gimping him that way.

gimping is something that deserves punishment

 

[Kink-Link5]

He meant the opponent would have a risk to edgeguarding Ness.

But it still doesn't make sense since the opponent wouldn't be gimping him if his recovery just goes straight through their gimp move. Ignoring the questionable logic that edgeguarding should be risky while recovering is free.

 

[Darkgun]

Well, if Ness's PKT projectile couldn't be clanked, the gimp against Ness would instead be to actually attack Ness. Heck, as it is there is a bit of a risk edguarding the kid (for someone without the proper projectile or disjoint), as reaching him as PKT2 is used leads to a very dangerous situation (All those who've managed to get stagespiked while doing this should raise their hands.). This would actually help Ness's incredibly easy to gimp recovery. Admittedly his recovery would look like, and be gimped in the same way as, the Spacies' Up-B recoveries, though with less vertical space lost on hit (Also, I think Ness can sweetspot the ledge and the spacies cannot. Not totally sure).

 

[The_NZA]

Wait, when you say it should be transcendent, you mean it should act like lucas's? Because as far as I know, didn't it already have transcendent properties in Melee?

Also, someone explain to me while an opponent jumping into Ness and not doing anything should be more damaging to his recovery than someone spiking him. That seems like inconsistent game design in a game about hitting your opponent.

 

[Oracle]

ness's recovery is really good if you use it right. just because you guys pkt right next to the stage where your opponent can hit you doesn't mean that his recovery is bad

 

[The_NZA]

I agree. I don't think it is that bad. Regardless, it's silly that it is strategically wiser to jump into his pkthunder than to meteor smash him in most situations. Surely, an opponent hugging next to you shouldn't be an instant death. It should be disadvantageous for the ness player but not stock ending.

 

[Oracle]

I don't think you understand how difficult that is to do for most characters against a good ness. The startup of the pkt1 has a small hitbox that will knock the opponent away (usually out of range of the pkt1), and only colliding with the top of the head will make it go away. If you don't time it perfectly, the multi hit tail will hold you in place for the pkt2 to hit you (which kills at about 40% on most characters if landed where most characters would be trying to gimp ness. most characters can't even recover if they go out to the max distance of pkt2 below the stage to try this. there are a couple of exceptions but for the most part its not really a good strategy

essentially, its a really high risk, high reward strategy

 

[The_NZA]

I understand how difficult it is, and I still think it's dumb. It negates certain angles that ness can recover from, as long as an opponent is attentive. It makes it so when a Ness double meteor smashes an opponent (a necessity given the strong recoveries in this game) he ends up close enough to opponents for them to easily absorb his pk thunder, killing him and letting them have a chance at survival. Given Ness's fall speed during PKT1, there is only so much manueverability he has to avoid an opponent while still making it back safely with pk thunder.

Oracle, most people who don't punish ness's upb properly fail because they suck at the matchup. Which is fair, most people playing against Ness don't know how to read his upb. However, even a not so nimble character like ivysaur, if he begins to move after Ness as soon as Ness is off stage, he can easily close the distance before pk thunder begins to pose a danger. I think it is much safer than it was in melee, but an opponent should be forced to actually hit ness to seriously deter his chances at getting to the stage. If you aren't hitting ness, it should only provide you with a positional advantage.

 

[a vehicle]

Meh i dont get what the fuzz is all about, ness is one of those characters that sometimes gives the opponent no choice but to wait while he gets back on stage

essentially, its a really high risk, high reward strategy

The reward is still the same: you KO your opponent.
Making the risk higher is nonsense

 

[Oracle]

NZA did you, a player with no tournament experience whatsoever, seriously tell me that me and sethlon are bad at a matchup we've both been playing since 2.1? you're reminding me why i try to avoid posting

The reward is still the same: you KO your opponent.
Making the risk higher is nonsense

the reward from what is the same as absorbing pkt2? If you're saying waiting for a hit on stage, then thats not always true, since ness survives at very high percents whereas a pkt2 gimp offstage will kill him at 0

 

[The_NZA]

NZA did you, a player with no tournament experience whatsoever, seriously tell me that me and sethlon are bad at a matchup we've both been playing since 2.1? you're reminding me why i try to avoid posting

the reward from what is the same as absorbing pkt2? If you're saying waiting for a hit on stage, then thats not always true, since ness survives at very high percents whereas a pkt2 gimp offstage will kill him at 0

...I never said you and Sethlon were bad. Sethlon is objectively good, and I also think Sethlon is quite adept at handling Ness's edge recovery game when he stays on stage (and when he doesn't do pointlessly risky maneuvers). I'm basing those observations on that set you posted in the other thread, where most Ness players can see that Sethlon was still taking unnecessary risks when Marth has easy tools to deter Ness on stage (all tools that Sethlon showcases throughout that set).

As far as you, honestly Oracle, I've never seen your v. Ness game and I don't pretend to know how you deal with him. I DO know you are an incredibly talented player and better than me. But you will probably admit to having less experience dealing with Ness's recovery than Fox's, and if you knew your v. Ness matchup as well, I'm sure you would discover some interesting ways to exploit Ness's recovery that Ness doesn't have all the answers to.

You see, Ness's recovery has distance, but lacks options and mixups. When he's closer on stage, he can aim down and exploit having 1. huge distance and 2. a lagless landing (forcing the opponent into a guessing game). However, if the opponent just jumps into him...its over.

Alternatively, Ness can do what you are suggesting and recover from a safe distance. However, when Ness recovers like this, he is entirely predictable in his trajectory, and most characters possess the right move to swat him out of his PKT2. The issue is most opponents besides a few dont have the experience YET to fully exploit all of that. I won't pretend to know that you do just because you are good, and that is not a commentary on your skill. Rather, it pertains to specific matchup knowledge and I haven't seen you play against Awestin or other Ness's to comfortably make a statement. The ONLY statement I made, and it is NOT a controversial one, was to say most people don't play against enough Ness's, and they often make wrong decisions leading to safe recoveries.

On a game design level, jumping into ness's pkt2 and taking a risk should result in an advantage. But its silly that jumping into ness = a kill. It feels silly to have it happen to you, and it feels silly to watch. You shouldn't go into special fall, but you should have a cool down making it so you ultimately are closer to death when it happens to you.

EDIT:

Seriously, though, I am in a community with you and I respect your play. But I can have observations about Ness that differ from yours, and that doesn't mean I am either
a) a scrub and therefore unentitled to my opinions
or b) calling you a scrub

I think we could both use a little hesitation before we jump on the trigger when arguing with one another, especially when we both ultimately think Ness has a strong tool set. I just tend to think he is exploitable in some key ways that you don't, and I think those weaknesses are significant in a game where few characters have those weaknesses.

 

[Vashimus]

"You have an opinion NZA? Tell me, have you ever attended a tournament? I didn't ****ing think so. STFU."

Stay classy, pros.

 

[Oracle]

NZA i have probably double or triple the ness experience than fox in PM. Awestin has been top 3 in dwf since we started playing PM more than a year ago and he's only used ness. I also have played a lot of ness, though not really in tournament. As far as tournament experience vs ness me and sethlon probably have more than any other project M players period (and against the best ness player to boot!). I know what I'm talking about. I've already explained that because your view of the game is based pretty much soley on theory craft you have a fairly invalid paradigm. I don't really know how to say that without sounding disrespectful but I think thats the truth. Yes, in theory ness' recovery is horrible. But in theory fox and falco's recovieries are horrible too. They still have all the tools they need to get around any easy edgeguarding.

Ness actually has a good deal of mixups with his pkt2 when hes decently far away. You can aim for a platform, sweetspot, go just above the ledge, or even let yourself drop during the pkt2 to get a little lower and mix up your timing around your opponent's ledge invincibility.All of these options usually have a way to deal with them, true. But no option can deal with ALL of them well, and a lot of the options will straight up get you killed if the ness does something you don't expect (if you think ness will sweetspot from far away so you grab the ledge and roll but he doesn't sweetstpot and instead goes on to the stage, then he'll either hit you or land so fast he can generally punish you.) This is what makes his recovery good: there is no safe strategy for most characcters to cover multiple ness recovery options.

"You have an opinion NZA? Tell me, have you ever attended a tournament? I didn't ****ing think so. STFU."

Stay classy, pros.

What the **** did you just ****ing say about me, you little *****? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the **** out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my ****ing words. You think you can get away with saying that **** to me over the Internet? Think again, ******. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re ****ing dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little ****. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your ****ing tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will **** fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re ****ing dead, kiddo.

Seriously though, when I say "ness recovery is good" and he says "no, everyone is just bad at edgeguarding it" and he has no real experience, its pretty disrespectful. I don't mind theorycraft, but I do mind inexperienced players saying i don't know what I"m talking about

 

[The_NZA]

...I really respected you Oracle, but now I don't know what to think. He's right that you were unnecessarily disrespectful to me. You could have just apologized and moved on...instead of bragging about how many people you have killed as if that is impressive (whether its facetious, a joke, or what, its pretty sick). Whether you like it or not, since you've been winning tournaments (and shoving that around like it makes you an authority), you are going to have to get used to the fact that people are going to shove it right back at you. You shouldn't dish it if you can't take it. Regardless...none of this or what you posted has much to do with the topic on hand anymore.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Please take all **** posts to the official **** post sub-forum located here.

Now, about that Squirtle recovery and how hilarious his side B is.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

...I really respected you Oracle, but now I don't know what to think. He's right that you were unnecessarily disrespectful to me. You could have just apologized and moved on...instead of bragging about how many people you have killed as if that is impressive (whether its facetious, a joke, or what, its pretty sick). Whether you like it or not, since you've been winning tournaments (and shoving that around like it makes you an authority), you are going to have to get used to the fact that people are going to shove it right back at you. You shouldn't dish it if you can't take it. Regardless...none of this or what you posted has much to do with the topic on hand anymore.

That's definitely a joke bruh. It's a copy pasta that troll pages on FaceBook post every now and then, and an avid joke in the DFW region.

Don't read into what people say online. Almost no one is serious, and since text is subjective, you shouldn't take anything too serious either.
As for recoveries, sonics recovery is fine where it is. Diddys,for whatever reason you think, isn't safe enough to be nerfed. There is indeed enough landing lag to punish accordingly, and if diddy lands where you can't punish, make the read and punish when he's coming down and while he's flying in. Ness, however, doesn't need buffs, but a nerf. He's got nothing to fear when doing pkt2 from a good distance. High priority, hits hard, hits fast, pkt stays active after ness is hit, ness has a hitbox on himself when going into pkt,Ness doesn't slow down after he hits someone or their shield, and ness has literally no landing lag. If you thought diddys was safe, you haven't played a ness who recovers in a manner to make you see what you're trying to buff.

I'm doing my best to not ask for nerfs or buffs. Smart play can make you a better player instead of asking for patches. The fighting game community is one that complains, when nothing is stopping you from playing a better character, or even the character you're complaining about. We should be doing the same. When you don't see a way, think outside the box and experiment. Smash is a game with almost limitless scenarios and options for every passing second.

Dig in guys. Put in work. Act like you can't ask for changes and learn the game we have now. Just my two bananas.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

Please take all **** posts to the official **** post sub-forum located here.

Now, about that Squirtle recovery and how hilarious his side B is.

Squirtle Side-B is the easily the best ****ty verson of Sonic's Side-B recovery.

 

[SpiderMad]

How do I edge-guard ZSS with Diddy/Pit/CF/Marth

 

[Oracle]

hang on ledge react to the getup punish rinse repeat

 

[Darkgun]

How do I edge-guard ZSS with Diddy/Pit/CF/Marth

Initially, I feel as though it will look a bit like the following.

Man, this picture is getting plenty of use.
Tether recovery exploits will work on ZSS just as well as anyone else usin' them. Assuming she uses Down-B to recover and is close enough to the stage to return with it, the best option seems to be either to challenge it in the air (preferably before the end of the Down-B), or if she uses the kick out of it, punish the endlag (being wary of the hitbox she produces on landing). With that said, it sounds like ZSS's higher recoveries are safer, though I cannot say that I am sure as to how often one gets the chance to recovery high with ZSS. With that in mind, I would be willing to say that I have no experience in the ZSS matchup, and just about as play time with her, so I would have to label this as some pretty bare bones theorycraft if I have ever heard of any. I am sure there is someone who plays ZSS who can point out the flaws in this. Oh, maybe you should go up on ZSS in her Character Discussion board.

Also, Pit. Pit has his arrows (which may prove to be more situationally useful here) and his rather nice aerials, such as dair, which I think may be his largest aerial hitbox and his longest aerial disjoint (and it has a spike), that can be used to extend the duration that ZSS spends offstage. I would also be willing to say that he (or possibly Marth) is also probably the best character out of the ones you listed to go way offstage to edgeguard with in general.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm assuming Pit's near universal nair -> anything works on ZSS and he shouldn't have much trouble dropzoning the move.

Otherwise I got nothing on the character.

 

[Yobolight]

Anyone got tips on edgeguarding Lucas?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Marth's dair is a good place to start; so would knowing what character you are using.

 

[9bit_alt]

To edgeguard Lucas, stop him from getting back on stage

 

[Minor Pandemic]

Based on nothing whatsoever, I'd recommend grabbing the ledge, throwing out a bair, then taking back the ledge.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I also hear using Fox's down B works well.

 

[_R@bid_]

I also hear using Fox's down B works well.

When does it not?

 

[Kally Wally]

thatsthejoke.jpg

 

[Burnsy]

Regarding edgeguarding Lucas' tether:

Based on nothing whatsoever, I'd recommend grabbing the ledge, throwing out a bair, then taking back the ledge.

I also hear using Fox's down B works well.

Once Lucas tethers, he can react to gimp attempts and disengage (tap down) before reeling in and airdodge immediately (invulnerability), then canceling that into another tether. He loses his tether after using it 3 times without reeling in. When used correctly, he can use this to avoid gimps and even put himself in autosweetspot range.

This isn't just theory smashing, this technique is very possible, very fast, and I have used it many times to avoid incoming gimps, including Fox shine spikes from seasoned melee veterans. Its not a "for sure" thing, as you are still forced to be vulnerable for at least 2-3 frames minimum, but it is certainly a notable option that can screw up and even punish gimp attempts. Keep in mind that characters that use up-b tethers can't really do this since they can't cancel their airdodge into a tether.

I've brought this up several times in different places in these forums, but it seems it is still not common knowledge yet. Even if you don't see any Lucas mains using this tactic yet, I assure you it will grow out of necessity as more players attempt to gimp him or grab the ledge to force a punishable ledgejump.

TLDR: Gimps on Lucas' tether are NOT free, even if you read and time perfectly. He isn't forced to either stay on his tether or reel in, he has the option to move invulnerably in any direction the instant his tether touches the ledge.