Official (Read OP) DeDeDe Tour! Community MU Analysis

[KeithTheGeek]

Use your NeutralB. I mean it. I don't remember if Metal Blades can heal you, but they do heal & , so I bet you can heal with it too. I can't say if you can eat a Charge Shot...
We will use and abuse our Mega Buster in this MU because having a HUGE target like doesn't happen often, so we will make sure to keep showering you guys in lemonade. It can also save us from these nasty Spike Balls.

Last but not least, Leaf Shield is only going to help for grabs onstage, since it is an active hitbox, but we will still make sure to not get hit since we can shield while it is active and since you have such a huge range. It can still annoy you offstage, so be careful.

Just a couple of things I wanted to comment on here, I guess in order that they appear in the quote:

• Neutral B does let us heal off of most items, which I assume includes Metal Blades, but it isn't really a safe option for Dedede. We have a super slow swallowing animation to sit through, and it's punishable at most distances Mega Man can throw Metal Blades from.
• Lemons in general are tough for Dedede to deal with. Just be wary of how much you've used them if Dedede throws out a Gordo, IIRC, stale lemons aren't capable of deflecting Gordo. Not that it matters...
• I'm not super familiar with the mechanics of Leaf Shield, but if what was said above is true and it can deflect Gordo, that's a major thing to note right there. Just the act of having it out limits 3 of Dedede's strongest options, that is grab, inhale, and Gordo. I do know your own options are restricted while it's spinning around you so that's something to keep in mind, but it could be great just to have out while pressuring Dedede in the air.

Besides that I don't have too many thoughts on the match-up. The only Mega Man I've played against is kind of bad, but the character is super annoying to deal with in neutral. He can probably zone us out and we literally have no options to deal with that, and even up close lemons and leaf shield pressure Dedede like no other character can.

It's mostly theory crafting at this point, but 70:30 . At best we go 60:40, but the more I think about his tools the less likely that seems. The only real advantage we have over Mega Man is his linear recovery.

 

[Axel311]

I agree with the megaman mains above. Dedede loses yet another matchup. When will we see one that Dedede wins?

Obviously gordos are a big no no against megaman in neutral, except for certain situations when you can shorthop them directly onto the opponent catching megaman in his lag. Gameplan for megaman is simple - camp. Run away and spam everything you've got. Force Dedede to approach.

Megaman can camp Dedede for days. Dedede has to have a good grasp on powershielding here or he's got no shot.

Greward posted a very good point above. Usually Dedede has a strong recovery to use to his advantage, but not here. Megaman can easily drop a bomb and gimp Dedede's vertical recovery so you have to be very careful when off stage. Also have to be careful to never get above megaman because he can pretty easily kill Dedede off the top with his wind as Dedede has a huge floaty hitbox.

Dedede does dominate up close though with his excellent grab, jab, ftilt and dsmash range. And megaman has some very punishable moves. Like the villager matchup, if Dedede can get close to Megaman he's way ahead. And IMO this matchup is way easier for Dedede when it's not on a flat stage. On a stage like battlefield I think it may even be in Dedede's favor. But on a stage like FD megaman is winning solidly. Overall I'd say -

60:40

 

[Luggy]

I never used D3 against Megaman, probably because I already knew where he would lack against the blue bomber.
And since everything has been already said, I can totally agree that our King has an other bad matchup to add to it's list.

So I'll say it's a "60:40", and people can agree with this.
Poor Triple D, he doesn't have luck with matchups. But those are just numbers. If you git gud with D3, they don't matter.
...
Okay, maybe a bit, but still.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

:v

I still say 8:2 in MM's favor, but I guess I'll be optimistic and say it's 7:3 instead. Mega Man plays the midrange game better than we do, shuts us down in neutral, has a better advantaged state, etc.

Smooth Criminal

 

[cwjakesteel]

I don't think Megaman has an edge over DDD. Yes Megaman can outcamp DDD, but all that means is that my matches against him take up the full 5 minutes. If DDD can't get in that means that Megaman isn't approaching either.

Gordo can go through megaman's sticky bomb. I don't think I've played against many good megaman players but Gordo is still an option if Megaman is repelling you with lemons in the air because it can bounce and hit him underneath. Megaman doesn't have any down-air options to oppose a Gordo that bounces from underneath, and even if he does get rid of it or changes space then you just use that to get in.

Megaman's projectiles are still the most annoying, however.

 

[#KingM]

I don't think Megaman has an edge over DDD. Yes Megaman can outcamp DDD, but all that means is that my matches against him take up the full 5 minutes. If DDD can't get in that means that Megaman isn't approaching either.

Gordo can go through megaman's sticky bomb. I don't think I've played against many good megaman players but Gordo is still an option if Megaman is repelling you with lemons in the air because it can bounce and hit him underneath. Megaman doesn't have any down-air options to oppose a Gordo that bounces from underneath, and even if he does get rid of it or changes space then you just use that to get in.

Megaman's projectiles are still the most annoying, however.

Completely agree. Megaman has no advantage other then projectiles. Gordo can repel MM on edges, and a sweet placed combo such as Jab-Jab-Grab-Dthrow-Uair will be more then enough to build up damage at low percentages, and once MM is around 33%+ he becomes vulnerable to kill moves. But damn, those projectiles MM has are pretty much a deal breaker, since DDD HATES projectiles of any kind.

50:50

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

As much as I hate to disagree with the optimists, this is a baaaad MU. (Although I wouldn't say 8:2...OR 50/50 for that matter.. They're both a little ridiculous...)

Yes, Dedesy dominates the up close game, and with proper spacing, he can dominate the aerial games. However, MM's projectiles and plethora of strong moves, it's ridiculously hard for D3 to get MM in those positions in the first place. That, alongside MM's great offstage and ledge game, it's so hard for D3 to get his flipper in the door.

However, that said, if Dedede CAN get inside his advantageous areas, and stay there, everything is a lot easier. But it won't be easy. I promise you that.

Stagewise, someone mentioned the less FD like, the better. I agree with this, although I would stay away from Battlefield and DL64 if I could. Lylat, Castle Siege, and Delfino seem pretty decent stages for Dedesy here.

This is a MU that sounds decent on paper, but worse in reality.

65:35 in 's favor.

 

[Soul Train]

Not going to bother going into move specific stuff, it's been said. Instead, I think matchup comparison is more useful.

I've fought some incredible Megamens. It's a bad matchup.

But not as bad as ZSS, Sanic, Luigi, or Fox. The D3 needs an on-point defense, but with it we reach rage and stay there for a looong scary time. Duck Hunt (oh gawd customs) is a worse fight.

60:40

Also: I am tired of reading about how the ease of D3 spamming Gordo in neutral impacts matchups. This is an online mentality, where lag lets you get away with it. At high level play, Gordo has minimal impact in neutral, no matter what the matchup. Even Luigi's fireball is overhyped in its affect. Go watch that last match of CEO and drool at the consecutive powershielding. Gordo is far more powerful when it's actually NOT hitting the opponent, threatening and limiting options.

Also x2: happy 4th y'all! Wait, it's the 5th already. whatever.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Thank you, Soul. I was actually about to say something about the mindset of Gordos around here.

He's right, folks. Chucking Gordos in neutral without any sorta forethought is a baaaaaad idea. Focus on limiting options with them and forcing bad decisions, not braindead zoning.

(Although I wouldn't say 8:2... That's a little absolutely ridiculous...)

But it ain't even, and it sure as hell isn't 60:40.

70:30 is me being generous and "reasonable," I guess, but something about that MU is rubbing me the wrong way regardless.


Smooth Criminal

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Thank you, Soul. I was actually about to say something about the mindset of Gordos around here.

He's right, folks. Chucking Gordos in neutral without any sorta forethought is a baaaaaad idea. Focus on limiting options with them and forcing bad decisions.

Smooth Criminal

Lol I hate to third things, but I'm kind of shocked it needs to be said. I don't even consider gordos to be projectiles.I recommend everyone else start thinking the same way. I don't really care what you call them, but pleeease don't call them projectiles.

 

[Axel311]

Lol I hate to third things, but I'm kind of shocked it needs to be said. I don't even consider gordos to be projectiles.I recommend everyone else start thinking the same way. I don't really care what you call them, but pleeease don't call them projectiles.

I have some different thoughts on this. I agree that the vast majority of the time gordo should not be used in neutral and should be used for spacing/edgeguarding only. But on a situational basis I do think they can be used in neutral for damage when you know you can place them under an opponent or catch them in their lag. Or when you have a solid read. And only when you know you have enough time to reflect it back if it is returned, or if a return is very unlikely. I don't think it's as simple as never ever use them in neutral. As long as you're hitting the opponent with the gordo more than you're getting hit back you're making a positive gain in damage.

And then there's matchups like DK and Gannon where in my opinion you should be making use of gordos in neutral because they're slow, their hitboxes are so large and their reflect options are poor. Have to be smart about it of course. And all this is very opponent dependent and the better the opponent the less likely you can use gordos in neutral at all. But I think we can be more open minded than just having an attitude of "never ever use them in neutral".

Just my 2 cents.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

I have some different thoughts on this. I agree that the vast majority of the time gordo should not be used in neutral and should be used for spacing/edgeguarding only. But on a situational basis I do think they can be used in neutral for damage when you know you can place them under an opponent or catch them in their lag. Or when you have a solid read. And only when you know you have enough time to reflect it back if it is returned, or if a return is very unlikely. I don't think it's as simple as never ever use them in neutral. As long as you're hitting the opponent with the gordo more than you're getting hit back you're making a positive gain in damage.

And then there's matchups like DK and Gannon where in my opinion you should be making use of gordos in neutral because they're slow, their hitboxes are so large and their reflect options are poor. Have to be smart about it of course. And all this is very opponent dependent and the better the opponent the less likely you can use gordos in neutral at all. But I think we can be more open minded than just having an attitude of "never ever use them in neutral".

Just my 2 cents.

You make very valid points, and I agree with you. I do.

But please don't quote me on something I didn't say. (e.g. never ever use them in neutral) Never did I say that, and I'd be bull****ting you if I did. I said do not call gordos projectiles, and I still stand by that 100% (they are spacing tools/traps that happen to have a hitbox). This is because, while in some MUs, yes you CAN safely throw out gordos in neutral, in most MUs you CAN'T. And the way I see it, using gordo in neutral is a muuuuch more situational/MU dependant thing to mention rather than saying you should definitely not use gordo in neutral. What I was implying is that you shouldn't have to mention gordos in neutral are a no-no, as that should be a given in any MU unless stated otherwise, in which case THEN you point out the gordos in neutral are OK there.

Hopefully I explained myself well enough?

 

[atomicblast360]

I'm gonna have to go with 70:30 Not quite as bad as let's say, Fox, ZSS, or Luigi (personally I also think Yoshi is one of his worst) but he can really Wall you out, like Villager I find it very hard to approach him, and he can camp you pretty hard. Edge guard him as much as possible, his recovery is decent, but his recovery leaves him open to an offstage bair or a gordo. Still a terrible MU for Dedede

With Customs I think it's 80:20.

 

[Locke 06]

Does dedede dominate up close? Are you sure?

That's what I'd rethink the most. What range do you want to be at? What's your plan in this MU?

Dtilt on Mega's shield nets you a 17% utilt punish that puts you up in the air for UAir juggles. Grab is good and gets you good reward, but that's it and Mega's grab is a frame faster and leads to up throw> UAir juggles. And Mega's f5 dtilt can trade or beat out your moves. And f7 pellet can help reset to neutral.

When I play against dedede (been a long time though), the only place I don't want to be is in your jab range and outside of my grab range. My goal is to camp you, and then get you in the air because Mega's UAir traps your landing so well. I also need to avoid being edge guarded. Other than that, I'm super comfortable at all times and that shows how bad things are for dedede.

 

[Axel311]

You make very valid points, and I agree with you. I do.

But please don't quote me on something I didn't say. (e.g. never ever use them in neutral) Never did I say that, and I'd be bull****ting you if I did. I said do not call gordos projectiles, and I still stand by that 100% (they are spacing tools/traps that happen to have a hitbox). This is because, while in some MUs, yes you CAN safely throw out gordos in neutral, in most MUs you CAN'T. And the way I see it, using gordo in neutral is a muuuuch more situational/MU dependant thing to mention rather than saying you should definitely not use gordo in neutral. What I was implying is that you shouldn't have to mention gordos in neutral are a no-no, as that should be a given in any MU unless stated otherwise, in which case THEN you point out the gordos in neutral are OK there.

Hopefully I explained myself well enough?

I was replying to the whole gordo discussion above in general, not you specifically. I should have just not quoted anyone, my bad.

 

[#KingM]

Does dedede dominate up close? Are you sure?

That's what I'd rethink the most. What range do you want to be at? What's your plan in this MU?

Dtilt on Mega's shield nets you a 17% utilt punish that puts you up in the air for UAir juggles. Grab is good and gets you good reward, but that's it and Mega's grab is a frame faster and leads to up throw> UAir juggles. And Mega's f5 dtilt can trade or beat out your moves. And f7 pellet can help reset to neutral.

When I play against dedede (been a long time though), the only place I don't want to be is in your jab range and outside of my grab range. My goal is to camp you, and then get you in the air because Mega's UAir traps your landing so well. I also need to avoid being edge guarded. Other than that, I'm super comfortable at all times and that shows how bad things are for dedede.

I agree with this, DDD loves it when opponents are up in the air, and wants to maintain juggling you until your at high percentages. This is almost exactly how I play DDD. Gordo is used as a "wall" made to pressure you into making a mistake, one that will be punished.

I wouldn't go as far to say that DDD dominates up close, but he does control. And DDD loves it when he is able to maintain control. Shield grabs and jabs should be able to keep the range at optimal positions, ready to be thrown into the air from a Dthrow.

And lets all remember to respect each others opinions, we all have our opinions on him, and It's not our job to go tell someone with a different opinion "no you're wrong".

 

[KeithTheGeek]

^I think he was talking about Mega Man's aerial options there. And that's pretty much true, with our large hitbox and poor air movement Rock can keep us in the air a long time if he really wanted to using the air shooter.

The issue with this match-up is that Dedede has a grueling time moving in close on Mega Man. And, once we're there, Mega Man's up close options are generally faster than what we can do. Once he has us back in the mid-to-long range zone, it's back to square one for us and exactly where they want us.

I don't think I would go as far to say that it's an 80:20 match-up, but just giving it some thought over the character's respective strengths and weaknesses should show that we really do have a rough time in this match-up. I do believe Dedede has some advantages over Mega Man but they're very minimal, and I hope I don't ever have to face a decent Mega main as Dedede.

 

[Greward]

Mega's gameplan isn't to outcamp DDD for 6 minutes. He is a character that will go in, eventually. His projectiles don't have a knockback that resets spacing, so at some point in time we have to hit you with something non projectile (usually grab). Metal Blade can combo into grab though so we usually fish for a MB to grab as a means to reset space. Anyways, Mega isn't terrible at close range, it's not like we can't do anything once DDD gets in... we probably still have the advantage.

Jab is annoying for Mega, but it's pretty much that. Dtilt can work but is punishable on shield. Gordos work against pellets and imo you should use them. Ftilt is too slow and it'll probably be stopped by pellets.

If DDD gets a grab in, it's hard for Mega to shake him off. Mega is a bit limited once in a bad spot, and some of our usual tools don't work too well against DDD's massive range.

7-3 looks good to me.

 

[#KingM]

Mega's gameplan isn't to outcamp DDD for 6 minutes. He is a character that will go in, eventually. His projectiles don't have a knockback that resets spacing, so at some point in time we have to hit you with something non projectile (usually grab). Metal Blade can combo into grab though so we usually fish for a MB to grab as a means to reset space. Anyways, Mega isn't terrible at close range, it's not like we can't do anything once DDD gets in... we probably still have the advantage.

Jab is annoying for Mega, but it's pretty much that. Dtilt can work but is punishable on shield. Gordos work against pellets and imo you should use them. Ftilt is too slow and it'll probably be stopped by pellets.

If DDD gets a grab in, it's hard for Mega to shake him off. Mega is a bit limited once in a bad spot, and some of our usual tools don't work too well against DDD's massive range.

7-3 looks good to me.

Yup. DDD may not be able to chain grab in Smash4, but his grabs and throws are still disgusting, especially his dthrow. Most characters won't be able to just shake off his throw, with the exception of a few. (ZSS, Mario, Luigi)

After seeing a few arguments, I do believe I should change my original 50:50. Not by much though, I still believe a lot of my points are valid.

55:45

 

[Rush 2112]

I don't think I could add anything meaningful with words, so I'll leave the only recent vids I have.

I found him harder to deal with when he was in my face. Plus that stage pick! On any other stage those Gordos are much easier to deal with.

Obviously not the best DDD player, he was looking better in other matches, but an example of how MM can dominate the matchup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWLXxgMXA-c

 

[toadster101]

:v

I still say 8:2 in MM's favor, but I guess I'll be optimistic and say it's 7:3 instead. Mega Man plays the midrange game better than we do, shuts us down in neutral, has a better advantaged state, etc.

Smooth Criminal

After having played Mega Man users that are actually good at the game, 80:20 is not unreasonable. Claims like "only the projectiles are annoying" are completely fallacious, because any decent Mega Man player is going to spam the **** out of them for this MU.
I'll follow suit and go with 70:30

 

[Flawed]

I prefer 60:40.
Dedede has always suffered from projectile monsters, even in brawl and PM.

The megaman HOP lemon HOP lemon strategy is insanity.



GXGaming tournament, dont remember which, I played Scatt ( a pretty good megaman) I won game one. He spent about a minute staring at the screen, then promptly destroyed me next game. I couldn't approach, and since he had the lead, I had to approach. There was nothing I could really do besides powershield and hope that he didn't escape when I closed him in.

Lemons, Metal blade drop, pick up, jump over my head (I stay in shield) drop blade, >grab

Suddenly all that space I made up was instantly back and I had to fight through again. Eventually I tried rolling through everything and bam, instant uptilt.
Since gordo is more threatening when its not hitting megaman, I tried to use it close up to get the easy grab when people are afraid of it/not sure how to hit it back in their current position, but he would instantly grab me/ go to the ledge/ or just pellet away like it didn't exist.

I tried next game to be more paitent, but it didnt matter, because he was dealing chip damage and I wasn't. GG, Scatt.

Megaman wins this matchup because he can wall us out with projectiles, and when we get in, he has too many ways to dispel our pressure.

Also, I'm confused, at someone above. 33% is when you can start going for kill moves? What? How is this strategy working for you

 

[#KingM]

I prefer 60:40.
Dedede has always suffered from projectile monsters, even in brawl and PM.

The megaman HOP lemon HOP lemon strategy is insanity.



GXGaming tournament, dont remember which, I played Scatt ( a pretty good megaman) I won game one. He spent about a minute staring at the screen, then promptly destroyed me next game. I couldn't approach, and since he had the lead, I had to approach. There was nothing I could really do besides powershield and hope that he didn't escape when I closed him in.

Lemons, Metal blade drop, pick up, jump over my head (I stay in shield) drop blade, >grab

Suddenly all that space I made up was instantly back and I had to fight through again. Eventually I tried rolling through everything and bam, instant uptilt.
Since gordo is more threatening when its not hitting megaman, I tried to use it close up to get the easy grab when people are afraid of it/not sure how to hit it back in their current position, but he would instantly grab me/ go to the ledge/ or just pellet away like it didn't exist.

I tried next game to be more paitent, but it didnt matter, because he was dealing chip damage and I wasn't. GG, Scatt.

Megaman wins this matchup because he can wall us out with projectiles, and when we get in, he has too many ways to dispel our pressure.

Also, I'm confused, at someone above. 33% is when you can start going for kill moves? What? How is this strategy working for you

Working very well so far, actually.

Through my experience as a DDD player, 33% is around the point you should start trying to get a kill move in through edge guarding, jab locking, etc. A well timed fsmash or dash attack should be able to knock an opponent out at around these numbers.

It doesn't mean you spam kill moves, it just means that they are now an option to consider, now that you're going to get results instead of having them become stale later on.

 

[TriTails]

Mega's gameplan isn't to outcamp DDD for 6 minutes. He is a character that will go in, eventually.

Wait. How does D3 can even get in?

Or...

That 'shield stun replaces shield drop lag' you mentioned while I was in your thread...

Is that true? Have you tested it? Because that alone will shed a light for me instead of hoping the opposite Mega doesn't use pellets when playing as Luigi.

 

[Greward]

Wait. How does D3 can even get in?

Or...

That 'shield stun replaces shield drop lag' you mentioned while I was in your thread...

Is that true? Have you tested it? Because that alone will shed a light for me instead of hoping the opposite Mega doesn't use pellets when playing as Luigi.

My point is that Mega's projectiles don't reset space since they don't have knockback (besides fsmash or crash bomb which aren't reliable), so he needs to use another move to create space again, usually grab.
Yes, that is a core mechanic of the game, so it's true.
While Mega's projectiles are annoying they can't make a perfect barrier against any kind of approach, they mostly do some chip damage in exchange for space.
Luigi probably beats Mega, but I can understand it being harder than most matchups. But let's not discuss this matchup in the DDD boards lol.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi beats Mega...

...Us Luigi boards are discussing Luigi vs Mega. Please drop by if you have things to share...

Oh wait. This is Triple D boards.

Anyhoo, thanks for the explanation. I better take my leave before I off-topic'd this thread.

But.

Working very well so far, actually.

Through my experience as a DDD player, 33% is around the point you should start trying to get a kill move in through edge guarding, jab locking, etc. A well timed fsmash or dash attack should be able to knock an opponent out at around these numbers.

It doesn't mean you spam kill moves, it just means that they are now an option to consider, now that you're going to get results instead of having them become stale later on.

Wait. What? I know D3's F-smash is D3's F-smash, but it kills at 33%? Even when neglecting the fact that Mega is a heavyweight, I'm having a hard time believeing that, unless you're at serious rage.

And those moves are too laggy. A near fully charged F-smash can be interrupted by a single random pellet. I agree those are things you can consider, but considering on how annoying Mega's projectiles are, I dont think you'll EVER land those moves unless he mistimed a D-smash for some reason.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Wait. What? I know D3's F-smash is D3's F-smash, but it kills at 33%? Even when neglecting the fact that Mega is a heavyweight, I'm having a hard time believeing that, unless you're at serious rage.

Believe it. A fresh F-smash kills even Bowser around that range, and that's without rage.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TriTails]

Believe it. A fresh F-smash kills even Bowser around that range, and that's without rage.

Smooth Criminal

Aw crap.

This move shall be known as 'Reverse Warlock Punch...Junior'.

 

[shrooby]

Wow, whole lotta discussion.
It's the bad MUs the bring out the most discussion, I guess.

Happy to see it regardless.~

Well, anyway, Mega Man is done
65:35

And now the dawg, Lucario.
Well, jackal, but whatever.
You know... I honestly can say I have 0 experience with this MU. =/
I'm looking forward to see what people have to say 'cause I honestly have no thoughts to start! Haha!
Discuss!

 

[KnightofPizza]

Really? I'm first? Wow. Well, for starters, Lucario can't get much use out of his aura because we have so many easy kill moves, and he seems easy to combo on. We just need to watch out for his Aura Sphere and disgusting Counter.

Edit: Whoops, looks like I forgot to rate the matchup. I'd give it a 55:45, Lucario in favor. His speed and mobility are better than ours, giving him a slight advantage.

 

[Flawed]

55:45 Lucario favor. Exciting matchup, Lucario wins by mobility and the Aura Charge pressure

Great Match-up! Dedede doesn't have to fight a wall of projectiles to get in, he has solid strings off grabs (both risky and not risky) He has lots of KO potential and he can edgegaurd Lucario without too much difficulty. The only thing that we have to be worried about is being unsafe on his shield ( that frame 9 side b or Grab Up throw up air punish)

Ftilt is your friend, and the aura sphere is rather easy to powershield. As far as I have played, Lucario is not a character that can bust out a nair to get out of our strings. I HAVE seen a Lucario manage to up b out of our aerials as a last resort escape but... he still died so yeah. The matchup doesn't get difficult until lucario passes 110%, and we should be killing him before that with a Bair or something

This isn't a matchup I have been forced to play Pikachu against.

We pretty much can't die without aura's influenece, and if we kill him first, game is pretty much done. However, one mistake = problem. But thankfully, its the same with Lucario!

Lucario can juggle Dedede, once he gets in his space, and he does have respect us luckily. Neither character has a move that lets them auto-win the neutral, so a better Dedede should be able to handle this no problem.

 

[TriTails]

Lucario got some nasty range in his Force Palm though, and that thing becomes obnoxious at 120% because Aura + Rage.

Aura Sphere is quite slow, so powershielding it should not be too difficult... if you are standing. But since D3 doesn't have Luigi-tier traction, you should be able to normal shield it just fine.

 

[Soul Train]

Lucario is a funky matchup, but as long as you play intentionally it's not an issue.

My whole goal when playing this matchup is not to let Lucario get above ~100%. Even if you do, D3 has the longevity to make some bad mistakes, survive, and reset.

Below 100%, Lucario is weak. Everything we have outranges him. He can't kill off anything, and has almost no reliable followups. Charged Aura Sphere is a strong punish option, but otherwise it's too laggy to threaten or pressure much in neutral. If you're getting hit by it go practice powershielding in training, the move charged or not is hugely telegraphed. Again, For Glory is a terrible space to use for matchup rankings, and just because you get hit by Aura Sphere in lag doesn't mean it's good.

Once he's around 40-50%, start throwing out intelligent Fsmash mixups. Once above 60%, sacrifice the Dthrow combo for stage control - get him off, and pressure him to the ledge. You need to be on point with your edgeguarding mixups here. One wrong guess and he should be dying early. After 1.0.4, Lucario had helpless state landing lag after his UpB hugely increased - to almost a full second. Be ready to punish if he ever tries to UpB past the ledge and onto the stage.

If the rat gets above 70% and is actually decent in neutral, I'll let myself get to rage, then start fishing for the Bair. Lucario's too slow to punish it (along with most of our kill/spacing options, including Fsmash -> Dtilt/Roll), abuse.

While Lucario's below 120%, Shield is a great option for D3. Lucario just doesn't have reliable followups off grab - his Upthrow followups can be DI'ed quite easily. Hold back or forward, mix it up and mash jump. D3 escapes well.

It's worth mentioning that his Dair makes his hover a bit above ground. Be ready for it, and don't let that throw off your timing.

Counterpick stage: Delfino. If that's banned, go with Halberd/Castle Siege. The former will seriously wreck him; transitions are your best friend, and will really mess with his UpB recovery.

Uniquely, Lucario CAN kill D3 quickly once above 120%. But the journey there is perilous, and not dying while at that high % is also difficult. When Lucario's above 100%, the matchup is 6-4 in his favor, but when below it, it's 7-3 in D3's favor. So in the end: Lucario has problems against those that can kill early and outrange him. D3 can whack with hammer, kill early, and survive long.

60:40

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Agreed with @ Soul Train . Overall, Lucario's neutral isn't something we need to worry about. His normals are almost as slow as ours, telegraphed, and not disjointed. Just watch out for the stupid Aura-infused random hits and hit confirms and command grabs at high percentages and D3 should be able to win this MU.

60:40

Smooth Criminal

 

[KnightofPizza]

You guys bring up some good points, and Lucario can be manipulated when you're dealing with the King of FSmash Knockback and Edge-Guarding. I think I'll change my rating to 60-40 adv. D3 as well.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Lucario can Aura Sphere charge to Jump Cancel USmash true combo post 60%. Lucario has combos at every percent, but some are very situational.

Lucario also thrives on BReversals and Wavebounces.

With combos and D3 being large and not the most mobile character I think Lucario has a slight advantage of 55:45.

I'll be happy.to friendly some of us after I get back from work if you would like.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Friendlies over WiFi won't prove your point.

Smooth Criminal

 

[#KingM]

Agreed with @ Soul Train . Overall, Lucario's neutral isn't something we need to worry about. His normals are almost as slow as ours, telegraphed, and not disjointed. Just watch out for the stupid Aura-infused random hits and hit confirms and command grabs at high percentages and D3 should be able to win this MU.

60:40

Smooth Criminal

And let's not forget extreme speed. As soon as DDD gets Lucario far enough off the ledge, Lucario's recovery options are limited. Jumping usually won't give him enough distance, and once he uses extreme speed, just fsmash punish. It's honestly so predictable as a recovery, it's laughable. It'll get Lucario killed quite often.

Lucario is relatively slow, doesn't have super-armor, and can't reliably keep DDD in check. However, Lucario does have aura, which could have been his saving grace, but since most of DDD's attacks at high percentages are going to KO, Lucario won't be able to make use of it fully.

60:40

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Friendlies over WiFi won't prove your point.

Smooth Criminal

Any of you D3s live around Metro Detroit then? If not, how about a friendly bout on WiFi?

Any Lucario worth his salt is not going to make his Extreme Speed easy to gimp or hit.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Any of you D3s live around Metro Detroit then? If not, how about a friendly bout on WiFi?

If only.

Any Lucario worth his salt is not going to make his Extreme Speed easy to gimp or hit.

Yeah, and any D3 worth his salt will always Super Dedede Jump to autosnap to the edge and power through his opponent's attempt to edgeguard him.

...see what I'm getting at? Scenarios like that won't always happen. We weren't speaking in absolutes pointing out the weakness of the move. It is fairly linear once it starts, telegraphed, and can be outdone in very specific ways (disjointed aerials, 9 frame nair, Inhale are just a few).

Smooth Criminal