Official (Read OP) DeDeDe Tour! Community MU Analysis

[shrooby]

The thing with Zamus is she effectively shuts down basically all approach options we have. And kills surprisingly early surprisingly easily.
Falcon does not do that. He does the latter (not as easily as Zero Suit's up-B, but that aside), but not the former. Which is honestly a bigger deal. Because he has to approach you to do anything, so at the very least you aren't struggling just to get in and do something.

I agree with Cook. It isn't that bad imo just based on all the experience I've gotten with this match-up.
But you do kinda need to have the right mindset going against Falcon to do well. You can't be aggro. Falcon's looking for you to play aggro so he can just shield grab or dash grab you.

 

[Thinktron]

I agree and i can see yours and cook's points, i already acknowledged that match-up isn't to bad with good patience. Ive never thought competitively with zamus, yet i have multiple times with falcon, so you can see where my unique opinion comes from.

Nice Haruhi picture btw

 

[T4ylor]

I've played plenty of Captain Falcons, good and bad, so I know this match up pretty well now. You can't be throwing out random attacks, because if you don't hit there's a pretty good chance of you getting punished due to CF's speed. But with D3's range, Falcon can find it pretty difficult to get in, as all of his attacks are beat out by a lot of what D3 has got, though once Falcon does get in he can rack of a lot of % with long strings. This match up pretty much comes down to whether or not you can keep them out with well timed attacks. I'd say it's pretty close to even, but ever so slightly in Falcon's favor just because while he risks getting hit when approaching in your range, he tends to be awarded well once he does get in on you (you get combo'd). 45:55

 

[Soul Train]

I don't feel a lot of these thoughts accurately capture the matchup. At most levels of play I would agree, but at any kind of higher level of play - against Falcons that know to bait, read airdodges, space effectively, etc - this is different. I've played some of the top falcons at Xanadu, and the end result is pretty predictable: D3 gets beat. Soundly.

In short: smart Falcons can sit just outside our Ftilt range, and immediately punish ANYTHING we do on reaction. He can dashdance to bait the Ftilt, and grab you during endlag (same with jab 1, AND SH Bair. Not kidding). We don't have any kind of safe offense here. It becomes a momentum-based game, and Falcon can just do more with momentum.

Normally that'd be fine with our survivability, as D3 can normally afford to lose most exchanges (like against Shiek, Diddy, etc). But here, Falcon don't care about %. He'll murder you at 60%, or spike your big floaty hitbox as it takes forever to get back to the ledge.

Gordos are one potential advantage, but frankly we won't have the space to utilize them in neutral. Sure, edgeguarding Falcon is fun, but it goes the other way too. D3 is a huge, floaty hitbox when recovering offstage, Falcon loves it.
Agreed with @ shrooby up above, this isn't AS bad as or . And of course this isn't all negative - our Dtilt can nicely surprise Falcon and hit him offstage, and once he loses momentum we can put him in some rough spots. But Falcon just punishes harder, kills harder, and at a high level this is a very rough matchup.

65:35

 

[shrooby]

I don't feel a lot of these thoughts accurately capture the matchup. At most levels of play I would agree, but at any kind of higher level of play - against Falcons that know to bait, read airdodges, space effectively, etc - this is different. I've played some of the top falcons at Xanadu, and the end result is pretty predictable: D3 gets beat. Soundly.

In short: smart Falcons can sit just outside our Ftilt range, and immediately punish ANYTHING we do on reaction. He can dashdance to bait the Ftilt, and grab you during endlag (same with jab 1, AND SH Bair. Not kidding). We don't have any kind of safe offense here. It becomes a momentum-based game, and Falcon can just do more with momentum.

Normally that'd be fine with our survivability, as D3 can normally afford to lose most exchanges (like against Shiek, Diddy, etc). But here, Falcon don't care about %. He'll murder you at 60%, or spike your big floaty hitbox as it takes forever to get back to the ledge.

Gordos are one potential advantage, but frankly we won't have the space to utilize them in neutral. Sure, edgeguarding Falcon is fun, but it goes the other way too. D3 is a huge, floaty hitbox when recovering offstage, Falcon loves it.
Agreed with @ shrooby up above, this isn't AS bad as or . And of course this isn't all negative - our Dtilt can nicely surprise Falcon and hit him offstage, and once he loses momentum we can put him in some rough spots. But Falcon just punishes harder, kills harder, and at a high level this is a very rough matchup.

65:35

I think though that once you start getting used to those tricks, once you start being able to keep up with Falcon, read when he's just baiting you out, it becomes more manageable imo
First time I played a Falcon who actually knew what they were doing I got destroyed. But as I started playing more patiently, more defensive, less knee-jerk reactions, it gets a bit better.
I was still on my toes basically the whole time, but yea, I think it's the kind of match-up that gets better once you've gotten used to the character. (Like I know that's just like the definition of match-up experience but I have no better way of phrasing what I'm saying). Not like one of those match-ups where even if you get used to who you're fighting it's still freakin' ridiculous.
Like, I'm not saying it isn't hard, but I think it's manageable. It just won't seem that way the first, second or third time doing it.
But yeah Gordos in neutral are no-go no matter what lol

 

[Jdawg26]

Sorry for my inactivity, folks!

As for my two cents on the MU, I believe that @ Soul Train and @ shrooby covered most of the main points. Falcon punishes harder, gets more combos on big bodies, and can confirm kills way earlier than most of the cast. In my experience, this matchup gets very stupid very quickly as Falcon can just stand there and stare at you until you whiff a button, then grab you. Both characters have to play on their back foot, which makes for a lot of very odd situations that don't really come up against any other character...

However at the end of the day Falcon is a straightforward character. You know exactly what he's going to do and what he's probably fishing for. It's just that D3 doesn't have the tools to deal with them very effectively. As per usual, here are some notes to help you survive:

-There's a certain range that Falcon can be standing where if he runs up and dash grabs you, you can't do anything on reaction. That zone is just outside of D3's ftilt range. Try not to let that happen.

-The biggest advantage we have in the MU is our edgeguarding game. Falcon's recovery is fairly linear so whenever he's off stage you have to go ham. Work on your stage tech timings just in case you mess up a punish and then you should be able to take a stock almost every time you force him off stage.

-Falcon's SHbair auto cancels. DON'T TRY TO DASH GRAB HIM AS A PUNISH IF HE SPACES IT. Use your disjoints or just disengage entirely, I've gotten baited way too many times by it.

-Work on your in-combo DI to make it as hard as possible for him to follow up. It's hard for D3, but every little bit counts.

That's about it. It's a tough matchup, but more doable than ZSS. 40:60 in favor of Falcon.

 

[shrooby]

That's the end for the good Captain.
Very informative, guys. Happy to see it.
Rating came out 40:60 even.
Since I feel like I'd kinda be lying if I rounded it one way or the other, so I think I'm just gonna keep it. (Consider it like a -2.5 I guess)
Even if I'm basically going against my own rule, I think it's better to avoid seeming misleading with the rating. (Even if the rating isn't really that important.)

Anyway, now it's time for Professor Layton and the Curious Villager.
Seems like the kinda match up that just looks like it would be really tough, just based on how Vllager plays.
But let's talk it out, yes yes?

But, before that, because this is Villager, I think it's very important to talk about this both with and without customs.
If you're gonna give a rating, just do it for default Villager so as to keep it consistent with the characters we've done thus far, but we should still at least talk about the custom options. Even if we're not explicitly labeling it with a rating.

Discuss.

 

[Thinktron]

This is really a hard match-up to discuss as no villager plays the same as another villager, like most the characters D3 is able almost always punish the down air with his up air ( the hammer that will piece the heavens) and use gordo during his recovery.

The bowling ball isn't that big of a worry either do its its range on stage being rather small compared to D3's options to punish said attack, and most attacks in the game can reflect gordo i don't see pocket as useful comparatively to other reflectors other than villager is able to launch it at any angel he so desires (I think a pocketed gordo kills at 80% without DI)

As with every big character in the game villager will likely use forward air and back air extremely often, perhaps using Loyd as well to keep us back, you will need good patience to get through these projectile barriers but its not impossible.

@ shrooby Is right this match-up is a pain and unless there's a tactic i don't know i'm gonna give this match-up advantage to villager.

 

[axelalexzander]

First of all I can't speak to customs since I never play customs.

I've played a lot of villager myself (tried to main him at one point) so I have some knowledge on the character. Against a good villager this is definitely not in Dedede's favor. The big problems are Dedede's big hitbox is an easy target for slingshot and pocket shuts down gordo. Short hop slingshots in particular are a huge pain and he'll be throwing them at you all match. However, one of villager's biggest weapon is his excellent gimping game and D3 is incredibly difficult to gimp so that helps D3 a a lot. Villager won't be killing D3 offstage as D3 has excellent recovery and will have to land kill moves on stage to win.

About pocket, keep in mind that a reflected pocketed gordo kills villager at ZERO percent so it's even more dangerous for him to throw a gordo at you than you at him. I've come across many villagers who are careless throwing out their pocketed items and get punished for it. Throwing a pocketed gordo at a good D3 is very risky.

Villager can keep Dedede out well and capitalizes on his lack of approach options. However, if you do get up close villager is at a huge disadvantage since his close range game is so awful. Villager can camp Dedede hard though. So power shielding is key for D3 getting in and winning this matchup.

Villager has problems getting the KO however on Dedede, which helps us. And he really can't kill Dedede early unless you make a mistake and get tree'ed or bowling ball'ed. Villager can edgeguard really well against D3's vertical recovery with tree and bowling ball. Tree is slow for villager to get off and predictable, and often Dedede can up B into the bottom slant of the stage to auto grab the edge and avoid the tree and bowling ball.

Yeah villager can camp hard but if you powershield well the matchup isn't SO bad since villager is so awful at close range once Dedede manages to get in on him. And he doesn't have much as far as combos. Villager has quite a bit of ending lag on his rocket, and it comes out slow. If you can powershield the slingshot and pick up on his rocket spam patterns you can get in. I'd much rather face a spammy type than someone who can capitalize on Dedede's big hitbox for combos.

I feel like this matchup is 40: 60

 

[Jatayu]

Thinktron, the gordo's angle stays the same when villager pockets it. So an up-tilted gordo will stay an up-tilted gordo. So with that in mind, I would recommend against throwing out untilted gordos. Giving them a untilted gordo is a real fright for the next 45 seconds.

Could anyone try topspin gordo against a villager? I'm curious to see if it would be any help in this matchup.

 

[Thinktron]

Really didn't know that actually will help a lot in the future thank you @ Jatayu

 

[Volya]

Hi there, Volya here. Competitive Villager main from France !
I don't fight DDD players often but the few times i did was way enough to pick a ratio for the matchup. Imo, it's probably something like 65:35 for Villager.
I'm not reaaally good at arguing but to make it short, DDD is fat and every pocketted gordo is a death warrant. Vil' can easily zone him just with fair & bair, he doesn't even need to approach him. The only way DDD can approach a villager is from the air (using all his jump to fall on him from above) but like every character, this method is very easy to punish.
A pocketed gordo can be placed directly on DDD just after a sweetspot fair for example, and it kills easily around 50%.

Sooooo ye, imo, if you fight a Villager, switch to another character !

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I agree that D3 loses this MU, but saying that the only way he's going to approach is by exhausting all his jumps and falling onto him with an aerial? I don't think so. You're vastly underestimating how far shielding the projectile-aerials go in this MU. D3's disjoints on the ground and in the air can give an incautious Villager a lot of problems if he's not careful (fortunately, trades usually work out in Villager's favor so...), as well as a follow-ups from a grab. Not much Villager can do if D3 is beneath him in the air.

But I digress. If anything, Lloid Rocket combined with projectile-aerial spam and tree planting is what gets D3 down. It's nowhere near as bad as the likes of Megaman or even ROB, though. The gaps in Villager's brand of zoning's wide enough to where laser-like precision isn't necessary to beat it. 6:4 is a little more reasonable.

Customs on, well, that's a different story. I've said it before that Pushy Lloid, Counter Tree, and Explosive Balloons give D3 hell. In that situation I'd say it was 7:3, because Villager becomes outright oppressive with those customs on, substituting the patterned gaps in his zoning for powerful properties that completely overwhelm D3's approach/safety on-stage.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Mtn64]

As a Villager main who has a good Dedede 3rd who lives inside my house and a Dedede in my crew, I have some experience in the matchup. (THIS WILL NOT EXPLAIN MY THOUGHTS ON CUSTOMS. I DON'T KNOW DEDEDES CUSTOMS NOR HAVE I FOUGHT A DEDEDE WITH MY CUSTOM VILLY)
I think Villager definitely wins the neutral game. Normally when I'm playing this matchup I'm trying to respond to your aerial approaches, usually trying to space and hit with the edge of a NAir to knock you right back into the fire that is lloid and pellet spam.
Tree sapling can shut down some of Dedede's approaches, especially if previously water slided.
In the air it's a different story. Your FAir goes through slingshot pellets if timed correctly and your BAir can easily kill. I think it's easy for Dedede to abuse Villagers recovery. Edgeguarding is the main way Dedede's make kills on me, and it takes some pretty good mixups off stage to get out of a good Dedede's edgeguard game.
On the other hand, I find it's easy to wall spike Dedede with NAir / DAir / BAir, so keep on your heels and be ready for techs if you're in a bad spot.
Don't be afraid to dash in if you're close enough when a Villager lloids near you, since the hitbox doesn't come out immediately.
To my knowledge, if your FTilt can reach me when I lloid, you can trade your ftilt for lloid. You can also DTilt through lloid, and if you read me, you can dash attack through my lloid.
In this MU I think staying close and outranging me with tilts and aerials is the general consensus, perfect shielding slingshots and punishing landings, and making some good reads on Villagers get ups and attempts to get on the stage. I honestly think this is a pretty even matchup.
If any Dedede or other Villager mains have input on this let me know, since I have only fought two good Dedede mains (dozens of times though) but I could be missing some key components to Dedede's playstyle.
MU: 55:45 / 50:50.

 

[WispBae]

Howdy there, your royalty! (Royalites?)

The doggy board is discussing D3's MU this week and would love your input!



Click the smooth (and sexy) DeDeDe to hop straight to the discussion!
("You know you want to baby... I'll let you rub my belly...")

...here's some mood music for the pic...

 

[shrooby]

@ Mtn64 what stages would you recommend we avoid/try to go for against Villager?

 

[axelalexzander]

@ Mtn64 what stages would you recommend we avoid/try to go for against Villager?

I'd say avoid FD for sure because it lets him space. I'd go with stages that don't let him camp. I'd probably avoid duck hunt as well since it has short edges, making it easier for him to fair you off stage.

 

[Mtn64]

@ Mtn64 what stages would you recommend we avoid/try to go for against Villager?

Sadly I don't have access to my own WiiU and I'm usually playing on my 3ds.
Maybe @ Darklink401 or @ Sonsa can offer better input on maps that Villager likes/dislikes vs dedede?

 

[Sonsa]

Sadly I don't have access to my own WiiU and I'm usually playing on my 3ds.
Maybe @ Darklink401 or @ Sonsa can offer better input on maps that Villager likes/dislikes vs dedede?

Oh, I'm honored to be summoned! Well yeah, Villager should be pretty comfortable on pretty much any stage, but Castle Siege, Skyloft, ...mmm... and yeah, maybe FD may slow things down. On other stages Villager can run to any platform, attack through platforms with ease, and be nice and close to bother poor Dedede.

 

[Darklink401]

Oh, I'm honored to be summoned! Well yeah, Villager should be pretty comfortable on pretty much any stage, but Castle Siege, Skyloft, ...mmm... and yeah, maybe FD may slow things down. On other stages Villager can run to any platform, attack through platforms with ease, and be nice and close to bother poor Dedede.

Me as well! haha

Also wouldn't FD be better for Villager, because Dedede IS a large character, so he can keep him away rather easily.

In fact, due to Villager's lloid and fair, Dedede struggles to use Gordo at all (not to mention a pocketed Gordo deals massive amounts of damage xD)

There honestly aren't too many stages Villager wouldn't feel comfortable on vs Dedede, but I wonder if Delfino/Halberd would be good for Dedede, because he can kill with upair way early. What do you think, Sonsa?

 

[shrooby]

Accidentally fell asleep before I could move onto the next character. D:

Well, anyway, Villager is done.

60:40

That is, without customs.

Now we move onto the rat.
I remember the first time I fought a decent Pikachu I was really flustered by how my attacks (especially grabs) would just fly over Pikachu's head.
But, eh, I'm sure that was more from match up inexperience. A different kind of punish probably would've worked.

Anyway...

Discuss!

 

[Darklink401]

Accidentally fell asleep before I could move onto the next character. D:

Well, anyway, Villager is done.

60:40

That is, without customs.

Now we move onto the rat.
I remember the first time I fought a decent Pikachu I was really flustered by how my attacks (especially grabs) would just fly over Pikachu's head.
But, eh, I'm sure that was more from match up inexperience. A different kind of punish probably would've worked.

Anyway...

Discuss!

How's the Villy-Dedede MU with customs? :o

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

How's the Villy-Dedede MU with customs? :o

Shhhhh we don't want to know.
---------------
As for the rat, it's a tricky situation.

Pikachu used to be a MU I thought was really easy but I was quickly disproven when I actually played Pikachu mains.

Pikachu will dominate the neutral and hard. You never want to be close range to him for more than a couple seconds. because he will grab you and smash you and all sorts of horrible things. Keep your distance. The way D3 needs to play in this MU is a combination of a reactionary and a hit-and-run playstyles. A good basic strategy would be to FTilt, DTilt, or Jab2Grab your way in, and then grab him (except for the last example obviously.) and make him go into the air. Offstage and in the air is where you want to be.

One thing to remember is to not underestimate his UpB and Neutral B. They seem weak but they wil stack up like nuts, and they both reflect the Gordo no problem. In fact, I should mention that just about all of Pikachu's moves will reflect it and I would only use the coldclock method when using them. His SideB is predictable but it's fast. Shield it and mash grab. Finally his DownB is the least of our worries here, as it's pretty easy to DI and since we're so damn fat it doesn't kill us as easy, but as always still be careful.

Oh yeah I forgot. Abuse the hell out of Inhale. Since Pikachu always wants to be close, it's hard for them to not run right into our mouths. Just don't be stupid about it.

Stagewise, ban FD, Battlefield, and Lylat. Halberd, Smashville, and T&C are good here. DH and Delfino are iffy.

It's hard to put a ratio on this MU. It's not as bad as 60-40 but not as easy as 55-45...
Don't crucify me but I'm gonna give this MU a rating of...
57.5-42.5, in favor of .

@Cows and @ TekKnite what do you guys think about the matchup?

 

[phili]

Hey dedede mains, I'm here from the Pikachu boards to give my input on this matchup. I play quite regularly with a dedede main, and I've learned a few things about this matchup.

1) Pikachu wins neutral. You don't have a choice in this. There are basically 2 reasons to this. First, Pikachu's neutral b and nair are both extremely effective in reflecting gordos. Second, quick attack seems almost unfair against this big penguin, and he is so fat that Pikachu can basically make up combos mid game. It's quite fun actually. Don't worry, it isn't quite hopeless for dedede yet because.....

2) Dedede should live forever in this matchup. Pikachu's main source of kills against the majority of the cast is edgeguards. The fact that dedede has armor on his upB makes him extremely difficult to gimp. Also, given dedede's weight, Pikachu's most reliable kill options on-stage (usmash + thunder) kill at much higher percents than many Pikachu players would like. This allows D3 to build up large amounts of rage, which can result in very early kills against Pikachu.

Overall, I think the matchup is in Pikachu's favour, but not by a ton. Although dedede nets kills much earlier, and Pikachu may really struggle to kill the big bird, the fact that the neutral is so heavily in Pikachu's favor makes me think that Pikachu may have a slight advantage in this matchup.

tl;dr : Pikachu wins slightly because of large advantage in neutral. 60:40 for

 

[Soul Train]

is actually my secondary/matchup-dependent main, and I feel I've got a good grasp on the character.

Most of the good points are nicely said above. Jolt wrecks Gordo, D3 lives for awhile, and Pika gets punished hard. A few points I don't think were mentioned:

But with Quick Attack, I'd argue that Pikachu is the best in the game at punishing D3's openings. Yes Sonic/Zero Suit are carzy annoying, but more because we can't punish them. This matchup is the other way around. Bad Pikas get predictable with UpB and consistently zip behind you. Good Pikas will sit just outside Ftilt range, Tjolt+wait for you to push a button, and punish. Offstage, well-placed Thunder bolts actually hamper D3's recovery a lot, and we're not a hard target to hit.

On the ground, almost all of Pika's attacks hit right in D3's weak spot: just outside of grab, yet faster than
In the air we do out-prioritize. However with Quick Attack/empty jumps, Pika can bait our laggy aerials and punish on reaction.

If you can get one out, Gordo does shut down a lot of Pika's Quick Attack BS (namely while he's trying to recover/do ledge mixups). And if Pika makes a few mistakes, he's dead. But that's exactly what makes Pika so good - his high skill ceiling - and with both players at a similar level, Pika wins this hard.

65 : 35

 

[Darklink401]

I'd say 60:40 in favor of the rat sounds about right, simply because of Dedede's survivability. Rage pikachu can, in fact kill Dedede rather early (110~% with upsmash?) and as Dedede is a big target, he's easy to hit with upthrow/upsmash into thunder)

 

[Thor]

Unless DDD has godlike custom moves, customs make it more Pikachu favored because heavy skull bash is absurdly good.

Someone above said abuse inhale. Not sure about this, but fsmash may outrange the move, which is a bad look for DDD if that's the case [if it's not, good for you all]. If this isn't the case but they catch on to your inhales, they'll likely cross-up roll usmash/fsmash/HSB/utilt/grab [depending on how the roll is timed and your percentage], just roll/jump away and shoot a thunder jolt, or fullhop dair you [or if they're using Thunderwave, fullhop that and proceed to try to start the semi-infinite if they're using 2311 instead of 1311]. If they can't deal with Inhale, go ahead, but if they can, it's a highly risky proposition, given Pikachu's KO power in the few moves listed [not easy to land, but Inhale opens that window wide] and insane combo ability on DDD [utilt is probably a free 15+% every time until KO percents, with utilt uair nair or bair at a minimum].

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Unless DDD has godlike custom moves, customs make it more Pikachu favored because heavy skull bash is absurdly good.

Someone above said abuse inhale. Not sure about this, but fsmash may outrange the move, which is a bad look for DDD if that's the case [if it's not, good for you all]. If this isn't the case but they catch on to your inhales, they'll likely cross-up roll usmash/fsmash/HSB/utilt/grab [depending on how the roll is timed and your percentage], just roll/jump away and shoot a thunder jolt, or fullhop dair you [or if they're using Thunderwave, fullhop that and proceed to try to start the semi-infinite if they're using 2311 instead of 1311]. If they can't deal with Inhale, go ahead, but if they can, it's a highly risky proposition, given Pikachu's KO power in the few moves listed [not easy to land, but Inhale opens that window wide] and insane combo ability on DDD [utilt is probably a free 15+% every time until KO percents, with utilt uair nair or bair at a minimum].

I misspoke. I was trying to say use it as a frequent mixup in very close range. My b.

 

[Thor]

I misspoke. I was trying to say use it as a frequent mixup in very close range. My b.

I was also thinking of close-range - there are times I predict some sort of counterattack so I dash back fsmash [similar to dash back ftilt but much more damage and range at the cost of more startup and endlag (it's especially effective vs Sheik players who love ftilt, heh)]. That said, it's still a solid way to cover things in that range, but as with everything, if it's predictable it's punishable. I was asking about the range because I was curious if dash back fsmash would outrange it on prediction, not reaction [obviously Inhale is terrible from afar unless Ike is charging Quick draw at you near the ledge and you have the lead (unless that was fixed from Brawl)].

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

I was also thinking of close-range - there are times I predict some sort of counterattack so I dash back fsmash [similar to dash back ftilt but much more damage and range at the cost of more startup and endlag (it's especially effective vs Sheik players who love ftilt, heh)]. That said, it's still a solid way to cover things in that range, but as with everything, if it's predictable it's punishable. I was asking about the range because I was curious if dash back fsmash would outrange it on prediction, not reaction [obviously Inhale is terrible from afar unless Ike is charging Quick draw at you near the ledge and you have the lead (unless that was fixed from Brawl)].

Yeah, Pikachu can successfully fsmash D3 just barely out of Inhale's reach, but it's tricky timing to dash into it. But then again I don't play Pikachu so it probably comes easier to you. Also, if you do your dash attack just as you enter Inhale's vortex, you will bypass the move and hit Dedede. This is a lot easier and safer than doing fsmash.

 

[Thor]

Yeah, Pikachu can successfully fsmash D3 just barely out of Inhale's reach, but it's tricky timing to dash into it. But then again I don't play Pikachu so it probably comes easier to you. Also, if you do your dash attack just as you enter Inhale's vortex, you will bypass the move and hit Dedede. This is a lot easier and safer than doing fsmash.

I wouldn't call it easy per se, I mostly go by feel. The information about dash attack is nice though.

That said, neither of those things are easy to do on reaction, so if you're careful with it, inhale is a command grab and therefore highly useful nonetheless.

 

[TekKnite]

Shhhhh we don't want to know.
---------------
As for the rat, it's a tricky situation.

Pikachu used to be a MU I thought was really easy but I was quickly disproven when I actually played Pikachu mains.

Pikachu will dominate the neutral and hard. You never want to be close range to him for more than a couple seconds. because he will grab you and smash you and all sorts of horrible things. Keep your distance. The way D3 needs to play in this MU is a combination of a reactionary and a hit-and-run playstyles. A good basic strategy would be to FTilt, DTilt, or Jab2Grab your way in, and then grab him (except for the last example obviously.) and make him go into the air. Offstage and in the air is where you want to be.

One thing to remember is to not underestimate his UpB and Neutral B. They seem weak but they wil stack up like nuts, and they both reflect the Gordo no problem. In fact, I should mention that just about all of Pikachu's moves will reflect it and I would only use the coldclock method when using them. His SideB is predictable but it's fast. Shield it and mash grab. Finally his DownB is the least of our worries here, as it's pretty easy to DI and since we're so damn fat it doesn't kill us as easy, but as always still be careful.

Oh yeah I forgot. Abuse the hell out of Inhale. Since Pikachu always wants to be close, it's hard for them to not run right into our mouths. Just don't be stupid about it.

Stagewise, ban FD, Battlefield, and Lylat. Halberd, Smashville, and T&C are good here. DH and Delfino are iffy.

It's hard to put a ratio on this MU. It's not as bad as 60-40 but not as easy as 55-45...
Don't crucify me but I'm gonna give this MU a rating of...
57.5-42.5, in favor of .

@Cows and @ TekKnite what do you guys think about the matchup?

I wouldn't exactly say you want Pikachu in the air and offstage because that's where he truly shines. Up-air for days F-air to grabs and off stage its edgeguard city population you. I'm never scared of the Dedede match up simply because he's such a huge target to combo, yes Dedede hits like a truck but if you get stuck in 50-80% combos what will you do? Especially when the combo goes across into a fast falling F-air into and Jump cancel Thunder for the stagespike. You can DI Up Throw into thunder, but it could also be bait for DI and the spot dodge since there's a large window where the Pikachu player can decide when to throw out the thunder. A lot of your Points are good JTC, but please don't tell them to keep Pikachu in the air and offstage because that's his turf for juggle town. Now yes you can inhale but here's the thing I remember a certain 72% combo on some guy names JTC when he used inhale As far as Stages just pick the Stages you don't suck on because Pikachu doesn't have a bad stage. They are al good for him, it all comes down to players preference and playstyle.

 

[shrooby]

@ TekKnite where would you say is the most disadvantageous situations Pikachu could be in this match up?
Or, at the very least, the least advantageous lol

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ TekKnite where would you say is the most disadvantageous situations Pikachu could be in this match up?
Or, at the very least, the least advantageous lol

...offstage or above D3, despite what our friend likes to say about the former. It also sounds to me like he hasn't played a D3 that respects anybody yet, that knows exactly how to get out of sticky situations with proper DI and the like.

Regardless, the rest of the reasoning is sound. D3's fatass combo fodder thing, hard to keep up with Pikachu's approach sometimes, and plenty more. I still think there are worse characters out there running around in the wild, but I'd rate this no less than 60:40 in Pika's favor.

Smooth Criminal

 

[shrooby]

Pikachu is donezo.
Final rating is 60:40

Now we're onto our first member of the Bros.. And the more infamous of the two as far as Smash 4 goes.
It certainly still is his year, isn't it?

Discuss!

 

[axelalexzander]

Bleh, another bad matchup unfortunately. I don't have a ton of experience against good Luigi mains but the ones I've played have made me feel almost helpless to do anything because we can't approach and Luigi can outcamp us. The good luigi mains I've played sit back and space with fireball, force you to shield with fireball and then run in and grab ----> Dthrow ---> nasty combo strings whenever you do shield. Rinse and repeat. I'm always confused as to what to do here because if you powershield the fireball you're getting grabbed anyway. I don't know of a way to shield the fireballs without leaving yourself open to getting grabbed (anyone know if there is a way?). Luigi's grab/combo game is ridiculously good.

Dedede is serious combo food here...Lugi has some of the best combos in the game. And because of fireballs Luigi wins neutral so hard it's not even funny. Fireballs is an easy way to reflect gordos. And because fireballs outrange Ftilt, Ftilt feels pretty crappy to me in this matchup. There's no reason for Luigi to be in Ftilt's range really because he can just sit outside of it and spam fireballs.

Lugi's recovery is weak so if Dedede can get him offstage that's where we're winning. But I just don't see how Dedede can approach, or get Luigi into that situation. Usually I can powershield projectiles (and maybe there is a way to do it without getting grabbed, I'm not the most experienced against Luigi), but here I tend to get grabbed whenever I try to shield the fireballs so I feel really out of options when trying to approach.

I feel here a good Luigi can just sit back, camp with fireballs and wait for his opening to run in and grab dthrow combo when we shield. Really don't know what Dedede can do here to approach...or do at all in this matchup. He can't approach and he gets outcamped. Just hope Luigi makes some mistakes you can punish. I feel like I have zero options against a good Luigi. I hope I'm wrong but I'm going to say:

65 : 35

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'll offer a more detailed opinion later, but I wanted to point this out really quick:

Why are you not using your disjoints? Luigi has great buttons, sure, but he has a linear approach. Stop him with your hammer.

Smooth Criminal

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I must say... This is my personal worst MU. Every time I look at it I can't seem to figure why I have so much trouble here. Luigi's floatiness plus air speed make it tough to maneuver into D3's space. approaching from the ground is a no go because of Ftilt and jab keeping Luigi out nicely. D3's multi jumps also give me trouble but I believe that's more of personal issue because I'm not counting jumps and get too aggressive at times. Gordo isn't much of an issue because of Fireball but sometimes a well-placed Gordo will get me during Fireball lag.

Really, all I know to do here is be EXTREMELY patient. Continuously throw Fireballs and lame D3 out until I can force a mistake in order for me to get big damage. Once Luigi gets in he wrecks D3. Faster attacks and combos for days. But with D3's weight, I have trouble landing that killing blow often. D3 has terrible aerial mobility and so does Luigi. So aerial battles definitely favor D3 as long as he keeps good spacing and times his aerials correctly.

I honestly feel like this MU is definitely in Luigi's favor. With a lot of patience D3 can't do much to Luigi while he slowly racks up damage. Neither character wants to approach here but Luigi forces it because Fireball > Gordo. Luigi can camp out D3 and make it very un-fun for the D3 player. Offstage, D3 has the better edgeguarding. Gordo is good vs Luigi Up B. Because of the multi-jumps and great recovery, D3 can harass offstage nicely (watch for Misfires). One fair can lead to a dead Luigi. Super armor on D3 up B makes it difficult to challenge him offstage so Luigi will most likely be relying on ledge trumps.

55/45 Luigi

 

[TMJ_Jack]

I feel like I have to say this every time: it depends on the player. Most of the time when I face a Luigi, I win. I always get bread and buttered, but I win. However, when the Luigi actually understands his metagame instead of just bread and butter, there's no way we win. That stupid fireball wins the neutral. One moment of hit stun from the fireball, and we could be combo'd into a KO. I have to say that Luigi is one of our absolute worst matchups. It's not impossible to win, but you have to have more patience than the Luigi: force him to approach without the fireball, which probably isn't going to happen.
30:70

 

[Jdawg26]

This sounds really really stupid but the fireball actually gives Luigi more frame advantage if it's blocked at long range rather than if you get hit by it provided you don't powershield.

It actually has a stupidly low amount of hitstun, so if the Luigi isn't expecting us to do an action we can get a surprise dtilt and break his momentum. Seriously, try it out in training mode.

I don't have time to do a longer writeup for the MU, but I'll say it's 60:40 in favor of Luigi.

- Learn how to deal with the fireball by powershielding or the method mentioned above.
- DI his throw combos up/in at low percents, away/up at mid percents, and at high percents... don't get grabbed lol.
- If he's trying to kill with Dthrow-> Down B, SDI downwards so you'll fall out if he tries to rise too much. You shouldn't die from that move below 140% or so.
- If he's trying to soft spike you offstage with the tornado, SDI up to eat the final hit so you don't get stuck in that weird fall state.

This MU is whack but you know the drill. Edgeguard and don't get grabbed. At least we can pull some stuff on his shield since he's so slidey.