Official (Read OP) DeDeDe Tour! Community MU Analysis

[The Bread Master]

From for glory playing, Shulk has some trouble getting to Deeds. DeDeDe's range, Aerials, and throws can give Shulk a hard time. The only thing that Shulk can really kill with is Smash, but even then DeThree can still read well and punish. However, DeDeDe is a HUGE target for Shulk's ShortHop aerials, which can add up pretty fast. DeDeDe can kill Shulk pretty early given that the Shulk doesn't constantly vision. I'd say 55:45, 3D Favor.

 

[cwjakesteel]

I think it's 50:50. I don't think that his monado arts help much because they all return the favor to DDD, with the exception of speed, maybe.

 

[Axel311]

Shulk outranges us, but he does have to approach. I also think this makes neutral even.

He has monado arts to help him get in, but we have tools like gordo to keep him out.

We have a superior combo game but shulk has a smaller hitbox and is more mobile.

Shulk has a lot of cooldown on many of his moves and can get hit with some nasty punishes. Same goes for Dedede.

I think the match comes down to who is the better player and who makes the better reads and punishes. At first I was thinking this was even, but after thinking about it I'd give Shulk a slight edge because of his superior range being an advantage, and everything else about the two characters about evening out in my opinion once you consider monado arts.

I think this one is

55: 45

 

[Scieric]

What about Shield? Don't underestimate it. Rest kills Shield Shulk at 115%, so I think De3 will have a hard time killing a Shulk who knows what he is doing not to mention both have very slow options and with Rage, Sheild Shulk can kill De3 at about 100%. Yes, Shield does reduce knockback, but BARELY. Not to mention that he will have rage, his knockback is actually HIGHER meaning that a solid smash attack is easily doind De3 in. Smash just isn't an option you should use against De3 anyway unless you have a fresh stock. Not to mention, Shulk players will be better readers. He takes the same philosophy into all matchups and will just easily be able to counter De3. They are used to getting the counter baited out of them, so they already know WHEN the big hit is coming. Not to mention that Shulk's counter is the easiest get-out-of-jail-free card against that crazy FSmash that some other characters might just panic against and screw up.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

What about Shield? Don't underestimate it. Rest kills Shield Shulk at 115%, so I think De3 will have a hard time killing a Shulk who knows what he is doing not to mention both have very slow options and with Rage, Sheild Shulk can kill De3 at about 100%. Yes, Shield does reduce knockback, but BARELY. Not to mention that he will have rage, his knockback is actually HIGHER meaning that a solid smash attack is easily doind De3 in. Smash just isn't an option you should use against De3 anyway unless you have a fresh stock. Not to mention, Shulk players will be better readers. He takes the same philosophy into all matchups and will just easily be able to counter De3. They are used to getting the counter baited out of them, so they already know WHEN the big hit is coming. Not to mention that Shulk's counter is the easiest get-out-of-jail-free card against that crazy FSmash that some other characters might just panic against and screw up.

What does he kill De3 with at 100 percent? I haven't had much experience with Shield Shulk (lets be honest, who has) but I need more things backing this up. One of De3's strengths (which many consider to be few and far between) is his surviviability (in terms of his weight/recovery). And pretty much whatever you said applies to Shulk works in the King's favour too. (Shield mode => Survive longer => more rage) = (De3 => Survives very long => more rage). If anything De3 gains an advantage here due to be very strong offensively regardless of rage.
Also, "Shulk players will be better readers" is just not even close to a thing. A player is a good or bad reader regardless of their character. If anything Dedede requires more reads to get kills because he's so much slower.
The counter point is true and definitely a deterrent when using said slow moves but I believe we can survive this matchup with spam, intelligent edge guarding and using his faster set of moves (aerials, dtilt, ftilt, etc).

 

[Scieric]

With rage, any Smash attack except maybe DSmash. Shulk has insane damage output and kill power if he's just able to get one hit in, which shouldn't be hard against De3 because Shulk has more range. Then, as I said, if you are at low %, you can pop on Smash and kill even earlier albiet without rage. Smash just isn't a good option against De3 anyway. Jump is usually my best bet in this MU because my aerials way outrange yours and I can stay out of the way of the Gordos and your anti-air options either don't have enough range to cover everywhere I COULD go and still be able to hit you, or are way too slow against the character with the best counter in the game.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...you do realize that Speed is the better option in this MU, right? Not Jump? You need the mobility, or otherwise Shulk isn't going to be doing much in neutral against D3.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Scieric]

I disagree. You completely discredit Jump's aerial mobility. On the contrary, in Speed, he's stuck on the ground with very low jump height. As I said, I want to keep an aerial besed-match due to my superior aerial range and poking ability as well as completely destroying his Gordo game. Also, if you actually read my earlier point Shulk counters De3 anti-air options.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yes, 'cause D3 is going to be chucking Gordos riiiiiight into the Monado, not when he's baiting you to swing and suffer through the horrendous recovery on most of your moves in the first place. We don't chuck Gordos in neutral, not usually, unless we're in advantage. So let's clear that up right now, you don't "destroy" Gordos by virtue of that.

And what are you going to do with Jump? Leap and soar through the air and...what, exactly? I'm seriously at a loss here.

And for the record, I'm with Axel---I think Shulk wins this MU. I'm just...wondering at the validity of your strategy against D3 is all.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KnightofPizza]

I disagree. You completely discredit Jump's aerial mobility. On the contrary, in Speed, he's stuck on the ground with very low jump height. As I said, I want to keep an aerial besed-match due to my superior aerial range and poking ability as well as completely destroying his Gordo game. Also, if you actually read my earlier point Shulk counters De3 anti-air options.

So what you're saying is, you think Jump is better than Speed? Like, at all times? Jump gets you high up in the air, going in for a strike, so you can... Have your aerials shielded and punished? This isn't only for the matchup, this is an all around bad thing to do. Anyways, more in line with the matchup, nobody's going to sit there and say "Here, have a Gordo to shoot back at me!" whenever. Going Gordo crazy isn't going to help anyone out, so Shulk's going to have to see them coming when he thinks they are. Use that future Monando power he's always going on about.

 

[Soul Train]

It's really obvious a lot of people have never played anything close to a decent Shulk. Punishing Backslash? Even mediocre Shulks only use that in specific combos.

In strengths, Shulk outranges us, has less lag, can combo better, has far safer kill options, and at a high level just wins this hard. He's got a ton of tech that's just barely being used now - specifically Art Cancelling. Done right, Shulk can threaten us with a completely safe offense. He's got absolutely crazy customs (Hyper Arts, the Counter that kills at 30%), and I predict they'll do some work at Evo.

As his moves do have some startup and punishable endlag, Shulk is susceptible to fast rushdown. He relies a lot on momentum. But you need good frame data for that, so D3 can't really capitalize.

Zero even hypothesizes that Shulk might be the best character in the game here. Of course Sheik ain't going anywhere anytime soon, but I the point is that Shulk is very underrated.

The good news: there are very, very few good Shulk players. Most suck and have no idea how to manage the Arts. But that's not what we're rating here. But I'd rate this under ZSS difficulty. Shulk wins this.

60:40 (edited)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm legit scared at the thought of a Shulk that can utilize Art Canceling, but I'm not inclined to put a 70:30 label on it just yet. Just me personally, of course.

For now I'll say it's 60:40 in Shulk's favor.

Smooth Criminal

 

[SalsaSavant]

I feel like this matchup used to be close to 55:45 or even 50:50, but Shulk has evolved beyond us.

This one is hard for me, so I don't think I'll be rating right now. Maybe I'll grab a few good Shulks and come back later, but for now...just some commentary.

Shulk has the advantage because his meta is more advanced than ours, because there are more Shulk players. Right now, it's a moderate to large advantage in his favor...but I don't think it has to be that way. If our meta catches up, we can equalize it again.

 

[Jdawg26]

I'm really confused as to why these matchup ratings are all over the place.

I feel like Shulk is a pretty even matchup. Fighting him is like fighting a sword character from any other game: Block his aerials, stay aware of his empty jump, and punish his poor frame data. Shulk does have the monado arts as a saving grace, that tilts it slightly to his favor, but when you're more familiar with fighting them it's not too bad.

55:45

I play this matchup fairly often with Relaxed so I think I have a solid grasp on it. Work the offstage game and respect his fair and bair at all times.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

I disagree. You completely discredit Jump's aerial mobility. On the contrary, in Speed, he's stuck on the ground with very low jump height. As I said, I want to keep an aerial besed-match due to my superior aerial range and poking ability as well as completely destroying his Gordo game. Also, if you actually read my earlier point Shulk counters De3 anti-air options.

I don't see how height in jumps is necessarily helpful. When I think of effective aerial game, my first thought was Melee Captain Falcon. The reason his aerial game was so strong (aka the majority of his game) is that his run speed and aerial speed was so fast, which allowed him to throw all of his forward momentum into a short hop + aerial. This combined with his amazing coverage with aerials, and the subsequent benefits of fast fall/L-Cancel, it made him dangerous as hell (and relevant). From what I know, the jump monado allows you to jump high and far, but if you have a short hop thats as big as a regular characters regular jump, what use is that. You want to have fast, far reaching and reasonably sized short hops so they can be situationally be used like regular ground attacks. I believe the best way to have that is a good ground speed to begin the jump and a good weight/air velocity to carry it. If you're comin' down from the sky with attacks, thats easily dealt with shield and punished. Therefore in my mind, speed>jump.

I also don't think that we should be judging this matchup based off the idea that shulk's complicated nature (I'm definitely willing to say he is more complex than D3) will be maximized on. If monado cancelling isn't in common use, than I won't consider it as a potential threat going into current competition. I still cannot refuse that he outranges us and is a faster/equally as hard hitting (albeit much less handsome) version of us with better frame data, which is why I still think it isn't in our favour.

Edit:
http://smashboards.com/threads/king-dedede-match-up-thread-the-king-is-in-the-house.395179/
Good yet somewhat old information here. Them Shulkies know how write a bunch.

 

[notyourparadigm]

Edit:
http://smashboards.com/threads/king-dedede-match-up-thread-the-king-is-in-the-house.395179/
Good yet somewhat old information here. Them Shulkies know how write a bunch.

Just out of curiosity, is there any particularly incorrect information in that thread? I'd be interested in hearing how anything discussed there has changed over the patches (assuming that's what you are referencing, I haven't kept track of D3's changes over the months).

 

[Sunnysunny]

What's worse, me asking for more of an explanation as to why exactly D3 loses the MU, or some random guy coming in saying we lose to a bag of tricks and that Wifi will prove his point? I'm sure you can understand my vexation if you agree with the latter.

That said, I have no complaints now that there's at least dialogue.

...however deprecating and egocentric it is.

Smooth Criminal

Hello~
Hi there, hey. = w=

So, I avoided this match up discussion like the plague, because I know neither of us would know how the **** it goes down. Good Lucario and D3's are few and far, let alone bad ones. But i'd like to state that the gimmicks that Myth has been listing are not really gimmicks. B-rerversing is so important to lucario! It's essential with his nuetral, combo, and ledge game. I'd even say it saves the character from being complete trash and bumps him up SO many ****ings spots higher then he'd be without it.

I'm not saying that it swings every match up in our favor merely because it exists. Atleast without discussing it. I know D3 atleast has really strong pivot options to catch short hoppers, but I just didn't want that kinda stuff to be written out as him blowing hot air. It's hard to explain how gimmicks are essential to lucario in every match up. B-reversing sphere into people is such a strong pressure tool for us that it's mere existance makes enemies give up space just to avoid it once they know how much we get off the damn thing. I personally think it's too early to do match up charts for these characters because both of our characters are gonna be met with ignorance when speaking to the other boards and i'm sure ya know it's a headache to try and explain what your character does. I'll admit, I have NO ****ing clue what a good D3 does. Just that he's a slow, fairly safe character that hits like a juggernaught and struggles with juggles. It's why I didn't participate. I feel like the 5/5 was out of fairness for both sides. Ha!

So yeah, my apologies. I know this is late, but for future reference if you ever need any lucario related videos I can certainly help. I think it'd be smart to just start every discussion with presenting some videos just to familiarize each side with what shenanigans each characters capable of until the metagame advances a little more. :X Just...man. I hate theory fighter so much. Ha!

 

[Scieric]

As a Shulk main, I think I should say is that Jump gives you increased jump height, increased fall speed ad increased lateral movement. You move Speed speed in the Air with no hindrance to run speed. Also some of you also have never heard of not doing an aerial, landing and grabbing? (If there's a term for that, then I don't know it) Which can counter De3s hoping to shield the typical NAir approach and utilise Shulk's (in my opinion) great grab game. One grab can give you stage control. Shulk LOVES stage control.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Just out of curiosity, is there any particularly incorrect information in that thread? I'd be interested in hearing how anything discussed there has changed over the patches (assuming that's what you are referencing, I haven't kept track of D3's changes over the months).

Looks like this was written with 1.0.5 in mind mostly? Thats just based off when the initial posts were made.

As a Shulk main, I think I should say is that Jump gives you increased jump height, increased fall speed ad increased lateral movement. You move Speed speed in the Air with no hindrance to run speed. Also some of you also have never heard of not doing an aerial, landing and grabbing? (If there's a term for that, then I don't know it) Which can counter De3s hoping to shield the typical NAir approach and utilise Shulk's (in my opinion) great grab game. One grab can give you stage control. Shulk LOVES stage control.

I'm literally testing the right now and it (the short hop) is absurdly high. Anytime you really have a downwards air approach (that isn't some sort of techchase or in a specific circumstance), it's usually super limiting. I suppose you can mix it up with a grab or an attack, but then why would you not have a horizontal approach? Where you can have an option to backup/go for a bait first. Also why are we arguing about one monado over another when we should be talking about match up specific things?
Also, every character love stage control, most characters' grabs are staples because grabbing is pretty great in this game. You're not providing admissible evidence.

 

[shrooby]

From for glory playing, Shulk has some trouble getting to Deeds. DeDeDe's range, Aerials, and throws can give Shulk a hard time. The only thing that Shulk can really kill with is Smash, but even then DeThree can still read well and punish. However, DeDeDe is a HUGE target for Shulk's ShortHop aerials, which can add up pretty fast. DeDeDe can kill Shulk pretty early given that the Shulk doesn't constantly vision. I'd say 55:45, 3D Favor.

Please don't base your thoughts exclusively on For Glory thanks.~

 

[Axel311]

It's really obvious a lot of people have never played anything close to a decent Shulk. Punishing Backslash? Even mediocre Shulks only use that in specific combos.

In strengths, Shulk outranges us, has less lag, can combo better, has far safer kill options, and at a high level just wins this hard. He's got a ton of tech that's just barely being used now - specifically Art Cancelling. Done right, Shulk can threaten us with a completely safe offense. He's got absolutely crazy customs (Hyper Arts, the Counter that kills at 30%), and I predict they'll do some work at Evo.

As his moves do have some startup and punishable endlag, Shulk is susceptible to fast rushdown. He relies a lot on momentum. But you need good frame data for that, so D3 can't really capitalize.

Zero even hypothesizes that Shulk might be the best character in the game here. Of course Sheik ain't going anywhere anytime soon, but I the point is that Shulk is very underrated.

The good news: there are very, very few good Shulk players. Most suck and have no idea how to manage the Arts. But that's not what we're rating here.
But I'd rate this just under ZSS difficulty. Shulk wins this, hard.

70:30

I could maybe go with 60:40 but 70:30? That's implying that this is one of D3's worst matchups and that it's nearly impossible. ZSS and Sonic are terrible matchups in part because they can reck D3 while staying super safe (also ZSS can kill D3 at stupid low %s). I don't see Shulk being able to stay completely safe because he has so much lag on his moves. Even though D3 can't rush down, Shulk can be punished because of the endlag. I don't see D3's bad frame data and mobility completely taking away his ability to punish. D3's has great range of his own which helps negate this.

I've never played a Shulk that completely recked me, so maybe I've never played a top Shulk. And I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, I'm just saying I don't see that ability in the character. Shulk is considered by most a mid tier character for a reason, and even though D3 can't capitalize on Shulk's lag as well as a rush down type I don't see him being helpless here. Could you explain in more detail how Shulk can make D3 helpless while staying completely safe? How does he get around all that ending lag?

 

[Scieric]

MALLC and superior range.

 

[Soul Train]

Could you explain in more detail how Shulk can make D3 helpless while staying completely safe? How does he get around all that ending lag?

One of the best smashers I play with regularly is a Shulk main, and the stuff he pulls off with Art cancels is just annoying as ****. Buster Nair to Smash Fsmash kills just...scarily low. I can powershield it all day, doesn't matter, he's safe AND attacking beyond my range. But to be fair, he's still not 100% consistent with it. And yes, I do get that one player a bad matchup does not make. Trying to go with as much offline experience as I can here, there aren't that many Shulks.

These matchup ratings can be hard; feels like it's different rating how a matchup feels and then how it compares to other matchups. Yeah ZSS/Sanic/MM are 70:30, and I don't think Shulk is quite the same difficulty. But it feels harder than our other 60:40 matchups.

Anyways. With slower frame data in both characters, I think the matchup boils down to momentum. And Shulk is just better at getting it. I'll revise to 60:40.

 

[notyourparadigm]

I'm literally testing the right now and it (the short hop) is absurdly high. Anytime you really have a downwards air approach (that isn't some sort of techchase or in a specific circumstance), it's usually super limiting. I suppose you can mix it up with a grab or an attack, but then why would you not have a horizontal approach? Where you can have an option to backup/go for a bait first. Also why are we arguing about one monado over another when we should be talking about match up specific things?
Also, every character love stage control, most characters' grabs are staples because grabbing is pretty great in this game. You're not providing admissible evidence.

Mind if I put my two cents in here?

I'm personally a big, BIG fan of Speed art, so I'm heavily biased in favour of it, but what @ Scieric is saying isn't entirely wrong. What frightens me away from Jump art isn't the need to approach from the air, but that 22% extra damage hanging above my head-- I often save it for recovering, or edge guarding. But it isn't its versatility that deters me, and I think it can be used safely in neutral just as much as Speed. Yes, Jump's SH is much higher than what would want from a SH, but Jump Shulk's fast fall speed is insane. Jump Shulk's approach is still going to be horizontal, but from the air this time. While yes, Shulk loses use of his shield while in the air, that fast fall speed means that he can regain that ability much faster than any other character's aerial approach. It's much harder to punish empty hops from Jump Shulk than you might think.

Jump and Speed are almost two sides of the same coin-- both give Shulk the mobility to win the neutral, but at the cost of percentage (a decrease in percentage dealt for Speed, and increase in percentage taken for Jump). From my own play style (so this will vary between Shulks), I prefer Speed when I'm at low percentage so I don't go from 0-60% from one mistake, whereas when I am at high percentage I prefer Jump (well, truly I prefer Shield to live to 200+% but Jump is very good too) as I can lay on as much damage as possible before I lose my stock, not really caring about the extra damage I am taking at that point.

Now, to talk specifically about D3. I wouldn't find myself using Buster nearly as much just because of how much mobility matters in in this MU. Yes, I still need to tack on the damage, but Buster makes every hit D3 gets on me worth more than my own. Similarly, I'd be very cautious about using Smash art, as if D3 is anywhere near kill percent he probably has enough rage to kill me with one solid read at mid-range percentages. I'd recommend taking advantage of any reckless usage of those arts in particular. Sadly, I can't input much more than that about my D3 experience. I've only faced one in Tournament, and only for one game of the set. All I knew from For Glory experience that I sure as hell didn't want to go Pit against him. Now that is a painful MU.

 

[Berserker.]

I think my thoughts on the match-up changed a bit

I think this is Shulk's slight advantage +1 (or 60:40 in other terms). It could be worse, maybe. Not sure about customs though

MALLC = Art cancelling

Shulk outranges Dedede, but their frame data is somewhat similar. I could go on and talk about certain moves here and there but I think you guys should know what to watch out for and those are the Monado Arts and MALLC, aaaand b-air.

The disadvantages on his art's (notably buster, jump, and smash) can get exploited by Dedede, but that doesn't mean it's not advisable to use any of the 3 arts mentioned. The only art I fear using is Smash art. Dedede is a heavy ****** so it's gonna take a while to kill him even with Smash art. That, and he can kill Shulk earlier due to his reduced weight. Ugh. Jump art and speed art is Shulk's go-to option against Dedede. Jump art may have a nasty nerf (22% more damage taken, lol) but Shulk players can work around that by mixing up their aerial movement. Beware of jump art because it can take Dedede out early if Shulk manages to connect n-air while you're near the edge (around the starting point). You should be aware of this from the 70-95% range. Speed art is good against D3 in such a way that you can use it to establish some sort of positional advantage. If you want to be real here, that 20% damage reduction may be good for extensive combos but when those combos deal 20-27% damage in total, there's an issue. Buster art is basically where things can either go north or south. I would have said that buster isn't risky because in reality, it isn't risky. ISSUE IS, it is risky against hard hitters and Dedede is definitely a hard hitter. Buster Shulk vs Dedede could go either way tbh. It depends on who wins out in mid-range. I think buster Shulk may have the slight edge here due to having more range and having safer attacks on shield (tipped n-air, b-air, f-tilt, d-tilt). Don't think buster would be frequently used though in the match-up due to the mobility being mediocre. Despite my early comment on speed art, it's still the best art for the MU due to its lack of exploitable weaknesses and it's amazing sheer mobility on both ground and in mid-air

MALLC has become a thing apparently, thanks to 9B's video. Do not punish MALLC. Shulk is intangible while he performs his art activation animation so don't bother with him when he succeeds in executing the tech. I've seen some Shulks just spam MALLC b-air to shut down the opponent. This sounds like a good idea for Shulk and it sort of is... but you're putting a lot of your arts on cooldown by doing that so... yeah. Shulk isn't getting anywhere with his vanilla art. MALLC is really deadly. If you get caught up in an MALLC combo, then.... whelp. Just don't try to do anything against MALLC. If he's rushing you down with MALLC, just try to run or jump away. The whole point of MALLC is basically to cancel the landing lag of Shulk's aerials, making his aerials totally safe. If you combine that with b-air, that **** is ridiculous

B-air is also something you need to watch out for. Although the start-up sucks, it's an amazing tool for Shulk. Its range is tremendous. Solely because of it, you can punish rolls, get-ups, ledge options, and approaches. Like, think of it this way. Expect a b-air when Dedede commits to anything. Even air dodging, rolling or spotdodging, Shulk's b-air will be used. B-air's start-up though is telegraphable so if Shulk does it out of no where (like, when you aren't doing anything), just power shield and punish hard. B-air is the most frequently art cancelled aerial to my knowledge so like I said with MALLC, just don't try to challenge it

If Shulk rushes in an aerial (while having an art activated), just shield grab. It's totally free. Shulk may have less end lag but even then, it's still bad enough for you to punish. Try your best to react to his mix-ups in speed or jump. You already have an idea on how to exploit buster, smash and jump art. The first 2 can be exploited badly once you damage Shulk. The other can basically spell doom for the character. Punishing Shulk may seem simple at first and well, it kind of is. His end lag is also bad enough for Dedede to punish but if it's well-spaced and if he was in an art such as buster (which increases shield pressure) or jump art (where in he can FF and retreat to make his aerials safe) or if you used MALLC (which you should challenge), it can get a bit complicated. It's difficult to punish Shulk players that space well. Just be patient against Shulk

 

[Scieric]

The matchup is highly mobility based, so staying in Jump and Speed should be what the Shulk main is trying to do. When he needs, he can pop on Shield as well to live forever (almost). But I would only reccomend Shield as a landing option to stop yourself from getting killed by pressure from below. Then keep up the mobility. If you decide to use Buster, YOU MUST GET THE FIRST HIT. I cannot stress this enough. If you have the disadvantage in Buster, switch out immediately so you don't take insane damage. If you do get the first hit, then you're fine. Because of De3's high weight and huge hurtbox sizes, comboing him in Buster isn't all that hard. But the moment you drop the combo, get out of Buster. Smash is just a no-no. Unless you are at absurdly low % or when you have stock lead. If you're in a last stock scenario, only use it if you're at 160% Shulk to 70%-80% De3 because it's practically your ONLY hope to get the kill first with your rage, base kill power and Smash all combined, it could be enough.

 

[The Bread Master]

Please don't base your thoughts exclusively on For Glory thanks.~

Sorry, only played Shulks in FG. Anywhere else I haven't.

 

[Scieric]

Maybe we could play sometime. Problem is my Wi-Fi's down atm and I see you don't have a Wii U. But if at all possible whenever, it'd make us both smarter.

 

[shrooby]

Yeah ZSS/Sanic/MM are 70:30, and I don't think Shulk is quite the same difficulty. But it feels harder than our other 60:40 matchups.

So 65:35 ?

Anyway, Shulk is done.

55:45

Now onto Robot.
ROB is quite the zoner, obviously. Think I know what that means for us lol
But there's obviously more specifics to discuss, so let's get to it then.~

Discuss!

 

[KnightofPizza]

I know nothing about this matchup, lol. I've always switched to a better character for ROB than Dedede each time. I do know that D3 is vulnerable to Beep Boops.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

This match-up is disgusting. I pretty much never use D3 against ROB players now, preferring to go for either the ditto or pulling out one of my pocket characters (Falcon and Zard, if you're wondering).

The only thing GOOD about this match-up is that a ROB without a top in hand has a difficult time landing, and when he's off stage and we're on stage, particularly if he's forced to recover low, he's basically open season for us.

But, ugh, his top is almost as good at controlling the stage as our Gordo, and it actively limits the places we're able to place one down. A well-placed top can also lead into hit confirms for either a smash attack, a combo starter, or off stage into a spike. Grabbing the top is absolutely essential. Once it's in your hands ROB can't pull another out, and I would recommend trying ROB out for a bit because there's some neat stuff you can do with the top. Dedede is also probably capable of some interesting set-ups, but they're not terribly reliable...

Landing against ROB is difficult because ROB has some good anti-air capabilities. Lasers and gyro are good at keeping Dedede out. We're a nice meaty target for ROB's combo game. Thankfully for Dedede, the uthrow nerf meant ROB lost one of his only good KO options against us, but he still has powerful smashes to work with and he can challenge Dedede's recovery attempts.

70:30 . At least. I could see this one being even worse.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

I've rarely fought Robs, but when I have I barely could do anything to him.
Take this with a grain of salt, but I support the 70:30 in favor of

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

This match-up is disgusting. I pretty much never use D3 against ROB players now, preferring to go for either the ditto or pulling out one of my pocket characters (Falcon and Zard, if you're wondering).

The only thing GOOD about this match-up is that a ROB without a top in hand has a difficult time landing, and when he's off stage and we're on stage, particularly if he's forced to recover low, he's basically open season for us.

But, ugh, his top is almost as good at controlling the stage as our Gordo, and it actively limits the places we're able to place one down. A well-placed top can also lead into hit confirms for either a smash attack, a combo starter, or off stage into a spike. Grabbing the top is absolutely essential. Once it's in your hands ROB can't pull another out, and I would recommend trying ROB out for a bit because there's some neat stuff you can do with the top. Dedede is also probably capable of some interesting set-ups, but they're not terribly reliable...

Landing against ROB is difficult because ROB has some good anti-air capabilities. Lasers and gyro are good at keeping Dedede out. We're a nice meaty target for ROB's combo game. Thankfully for Dedede, the uthrow nerf meant ROB lost one of his only good KO options against us, but he still has powerful smashes to work with and he can challenge Dedede's recovery attempts.

70:30 . At least. I could see this one being even worse.

Can all of ROB's lasers reflect the Gordo? I'm assuming the top can too.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Yes, any level of charge on the laser can deflect them. So can the top, even while it's spinning on the ground (last I checked, anyways). It makes it difficult to set traps of any sort because these projectiles cover such a wide portion of the stage.

 

[KnightofPizza]

Okay, 70:30 ROB, definitely. Of course, I know next to nothing about this, but, as with any projectile character, D3's going to have a tough time.

 

[Jatayu]

This match-up is disgusting. I pretty much never use D3 against ROB players now, preferring to go for either the ditto or pulling out one of my pocket characters (Falcon and Zard, if you're wondering).

The only thing GOOD about this match-up is that a ROB without a top in hand has a difficult time landing, and when he's off stage and we're on stage, particularly if he's forced to recover low, he's basically open season for us.

But, ugh, his top is almost as good at controlling the stage as our Gordo, and it actively limits the places we're able to place one down. A well-placed top can also lead into hit confirms for either a smash attack, a combo starter, or off stage into a spike. Grabbing the top is absolutely essential. Once it's in your hands ROB can't pull another out, and I would recommend trying ROB out for a bit because there's some neat stuff you can do with the top. Dedede is also probably capable of some interesting set-ups, but they're not terribly reliable...

Landing against ROB is difficult because ROB has some good anti-air capabilities. Lasers and gyro are good at keeping Dedede out. We're a nice meaty target for ROB's combo game. Thankfully for Dedede, the uthrow nerf meant ROB lost one of his only good KO options against us, but he still has powerful smashes to work with and he can challenge Dedede's recovery attempts.

70:30 . At least. I could see this one being even worse.

Wise words from the R.O.B. main/secondary user. And now for some silly questions from me.

What does R.O.B. gain from customs? I hear things about a tripping gyro and a better recovery.
Do you think Bouncing Gordo would better in this match-up? And what stages would you ban and counterpick?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

To be quite honest, I haven't played ROB with customs very much. But yes, he has a custom recovery that moves significantly faster, allowing him to chase you higher and faster for better follow ups, I think at the expense of less fuel? But from what I've seen of it, it looks like an upgrade over default.

ROB has the trip gyro, which if it works anything like default gyro basically means you have a Brawl Diddy Banana peel on the stage at all times. The other custom gyro is the burning gyro, which trades some speed and distance for a gyro that lands closer to ROB (which makes it easier for him to control where it goes) and does more damage. I haven't seen this one used too often, probably because of how slow it is compared to the other gyros, but it's something worth noting.

Bouncing Gordo...I'm not sure, to be honest. It would be better for covering high recovery attempts from ROB, but if we're assuming customs on ROB is likely running the faster up b making that point moot anyways. For stage control, it's probably slightly harder to challenge than default but you lose some of the ledge trapping capabilities that make the default so good.

Ban the usual Battlefield/Dream Land, FD against ROB. On the former two ROB simply has better mobility than Dedede, and the platforms allow his vertical finishers to kill sooner. On FD, good luck actually approaching ROB if he plays optimally.

I think I would avoid Halberd and Delphino in this match up as well. Low ceilings help ROB kill. With the custom up b, I imagine he could very easily carry you up into the blast zone with uair alone, but even when he's running default they're low enough to be a problem.

Smashville would likely be your safest bet. I'm a little iffy on Town and City, it has the platforms that benefit ROB as well as the reduced ceiling...

The tilting of Lylat Cruise could interrupt ROB's projectiles. I hate hate HATE Duck Hunt, but that's always an option for the ducks eating the tops. Just be aware that the laser will cut straight through the Ducks, and assuming customs his custom up b might actually be really good on this stage.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Just want to say that T&C is a horrible stage to go to against a ROB and you're better off going to FD even.

 

[Axel311]

Awful matchup for Dedede. Similar to the Megaman and Samus matchups.

Dedede is forced to approach and he just cannot....at all. That's about all you need to know about this matchup. Dedede gets zoned out so badly.

This matchup is better on smaller, platform stages. I know ROB kills off the top but I'd much rather go to platforms stages like battlefield/dreamland because the platforms helps you get around his spam and gyro, so atleast you have a chance at approaching. Do not go to FD.

I think this matchup is worse than megaman because gyro is so amazing...I've always had a harder time approaching ROB than megaman or villager.

65:35 (on FD I'd say 70:30)

 

[Man of shame]

Does any one know if gordos get reflected by stationary gyro.