Official (Read OP) DeDeDe Tour! Community MU Analysis

[Mr.Lee]

Does any one know if gordos get reflected by stationary gyro.

Any attack or projectile that has any knock back will reflect gordos. So yes. Even though the the gyro is stationary, as long as it's spinning and it's hit box is active, it will reflect gordos.

 

[Thinktron]

Any attack or projectile that has any knock back will reflect gordos. So yes. Even though the the gyro is stationary, as long as it's spinning and it's hit box is active, it will reflect gordos.

Yeah it knocks the Gordo back, at a odd angle though, at least when i tried it. Dont think its anything to worry about though

still

65-35 ROB advantage

 

[Texfone]

Yeah it knocks the Gordo back, at a odd angle though, at least when i tried it. Dont think its anything to worry about though

still

65-35 ROB advantage

Pfff... As if. More like 0-100.
Dedede always wins.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Any attack or projectile that has any knock back will reflect gordos. So yes. Even though the the gyro is stationary, as long as it's spinning and it's hit box is active, it will reflect gordos.

Small correction here: Any attack that deals a minimum of 2% in a single hit will deflect Gordos. Gordo will actually cut through fully charged Water Shuriken, Sheik Needles, even the first couple of hits on Ness's fair. Which, unfortunately, is a small minority of attacks in this game.

But anyhow, the top does in fact bounce back Gordos when stationary. Which is something D3 mains should worry about @ Thinktron . It makes one of our main pressure tools practically unusable. Gyro in this match-up is basically ROB's version of Gordo that's just straight up superior.

 

[Thinktron]

Small correction here: Any attack that deals a minimum of 2% in a single hit will deflect Gordos. Gordo will actually cut through fully charged Water Shuriken, Sheik Needles, even the first couple of hits on Ness's fair. Which, unfortunately, is a small minority of attacks in this game.

But anyhow, the top does in fact bounce back Gordos when stationary. Which is something D3 mains should worry about @ Thinktron . It makes one of our main pressure tools practically unusable. Gyro in this match-up is basically ROB's version of Gordo that's just straight up superior.

Ive always seen gordos go straight up and arc slightly after kitting the stationed gordo (by always i mean ive seen this once), I'm going to assume it all depends on angle it hits the gyro.

 

[Texfone]

Hey guys I'd like some help with how to deal with Ike, my friend recently started playing as him and my goodness, I hate all of Ike's specials ( in the way of having to deal with them ). Giving that he can hold that side special for however long he wants so there's really no way to predict when he'll use it.

And, for me, the up special is very terrible for a dedede like me because i go for an aerial approach usually and this move does not help. Plus I can't punish the move over half the time because he throws his sword up first and you can't hit his sword so you're just going to have to get rekt by the rest of the move so by that time, you might as well just wait for the move to finish. Even when he recovers and you are trying to edge guard him, his sword hits you in the face and makes you fly back so you can't and then he just goes into his side special when he gets up off the ledge.

And his down special gets me a lot, that counter is not good for dedede one bit.

So can I please have some feedback on how to defeat Ike?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Considering this thread is for discussing specific match-ups and we're currently on ROB it's probably not the right place for it, which is why we have this thread here: http://smashboards.com/threads/general-match-up-discussion-thread.388795/

But, to answer some of your questions, if Ike is charging up side b just keep a safe distance away and be prepared to block on reaction. It's pretty laggy if it hits your shield, IIRC, so you should be able to get a free punish out of it. Alternatively, if you aren't playing on FD you could sit on a platform and this basically forces the Ike to eat a punish. If he lets go, you could just drop off and hit him, if he continues charging you might be able to lob a gordo at him or just use the platform to give yourself a safe space to approach him from. Note that really only applies to dealing with side b though.

On his up b, you should be able to stand just outside of the swords range near the edge of the stage and poke at Ike with ftilt when he is trying to recover. If he's trying to use the attack as an anti-air, either dodge it and fast fall back to the ground with your shield ready or float out of the way. Once Ike lands he's open to a counter-attack.

As for Counter, you can try to bait it out like you would an air dodge and then punish him for using it. It might make him think twice about using it.

Other things to watch out for is Ike's nair, dtilt, and jab. These are some of his main ways to space and come out either decently fast or cover a good amount of space. Try to poke at Ike from safe distances and move in when you can.

 

[Cook]

You guys are pretty pessimistic about most of Dedede's matchups, dang!

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

You guys are pretty pessimistic about most of Dedede's matchups, dang!

Hey, it's better than being unhealthily optimistic and saying D3 wins the second he comes onscreen.

(Even if that's the truth.)​

 

[Axel311]

You guys are pretty pessimistic about most of Dedede's matchups, dang!

It seems that way, but I credit D3 mains here for not being biased. I see other low/mid tier character boards where I believe the mains are being unrealistic about their matchups. I don't think that's the case here, we're actually being honest. Dedede is not very good in Smash 4, unfortunately. He's super weak to camping, his hitbox is huge which makes him combo food, his mobility is poor and his frame data stinks. I wish I could say that D3 has potential and there are undiscovered things about him in the meta, but I don't see it. Those weaknesses are just too glaring, you can't get past them. I don't think he has a lot of potential. I hope I'm wrong.

I love the character and will keep playing him anyways but my belief is he's never moving up past the bottom half of the tier list unless he gets a buff. The latest community tier list put him just outside the bottom 10 characters. Wish I could disgree! The fact that this thread has covered 16 matchups and not one has been agreed to be positive for D3 speaks volumes.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

It seems that way, but I credit D3 mains here for not being biased. I see other low/mid tier character boards where I believe the mains are being unrealistic about their matchups. I don't think that's the case here, we're actually being honest. Dedede is not very good in Smash 4, unfortunately. He's super weak to camping, his hitbox is huge which makes him combo food, his mobility is poor and his frame data stinks. I wish I could say that D3 has potential and there are undiscovered things about him in the meta, but I don't see it. Those weaknesses are just too glaring, you can't get past them. I don't think he has a lot of potential. I hope I'm wrong.

I love the character and will keep playing him anyways but my belief is he's never moving up past the bottom half of the tier list unless he gets a buff. The latest community tier list put him just outside the bottom 10 characters. Wish I could disgree! The fact that this thread has covered 16 matchups and not one has been agreed to be positive for D3 speaks volumes.

Lying to ourselves will only hurt us, yeah.

However, in the King's defense, the only reason all our MUs so far are horrible is because we're going through all his worst MUs before we go through the seemingly easier ones.

Also, I have always felt Dedesy has potential, and the fact that Big D got 65th at EVO with only Dedesy only solidifies that fact. He can do things, it just takes a looot of effort.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Got a buncha local d3 players, so this is a matchup I know.

ROB can really mess up DeDeDe. He's slow, juggled easily, can't reliably use Gordos, and so much more. Grab combos, superior spacing tools, good projectiles, fast airs/ tilts, fair combos, and gyro out DeDeDe in his place (he's just slow and has trouble against projectile-spacing-focused characters).


Fortunately DeDeDe has some moves that can be used against ROB. Grab-> up air hurts and works to mid percents. Down smash is just a good move in general and works great in footsies. DeDeDe's up B is tough to edgeguard. Oh and DeDeDe is great off stage- so great it's annoying. ROB's recovery is awful against him, and every move (bar dair) is useful. Oh! And he has better taunts, so that's... A plus...?

It's nowhere near unwinnable. It's probably near ROB 60:40. DeDeDe just has to play differently to win: less gordos, use his quicker attacks, play footsies, and get ROB off-stage. Play it safe and stay near ROB.

 

[Cook]

It seems that way, but I credit D3 mains here for not being biased. I see other low/mid tier character boards where I believe the mains are being unrealistic about their matchups. I don't think that's the case here, we're actually being honest. Dedede is not very good in Smash 4, unfortunately. He's super weak to camping, his hitbox is huge which makes him combo food, his mobility is poor and his frame data stinks. I wish I could say that D3 has potential and there are undiscovered things about him in the meta, but I don't see it. Those weaknesses are just too glaring, you can't get past them. I don't think he has a lot of potential. I hope I'm wrong.

I love the character and will keep playing him anyways but my belief is he's never moving up past the bottom half of the tier list unless he gets a buff. The latest community tier list put him just outside the bottom 10 characters. Wish I could disgree! The fact that this thread has covered 16 matchups and not one has been agreed to be positive for D3 speaks volumes.

That may all be true, but he also racks up damage super fast, can kill early, is great offstage, and can live forever. I'm not saying he wins all these matchups, but everyone is saying like 70:30 loss on so many matchups, which is crazy. People are even posting some 80:20s, lol.

Like, 65:35 means huge advantage guys, you're getting a bit silly imo, lol.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I dunno, Dedede loses neutral to a lot of characters, and that's really bad in a game that's mostly ABOUT winning the neutral game.

ROB in particular I think he has a harder time beating in neutral than, for example, the Mario brothers, who I think we ranked somewhere around 60:40 for both of them? I would have to go back and check. Anyways, unless Sakurai's team is willing to make some quality of life changes for the mid-low tiers I don't think we'll see much improvement. Falco and Ike are a good start, but they seem quite happy with where Dedede is at.

I already hit a cross-roads of sorts where I had to decide, is my enjoyment of and dedication to the character more important than my want to win? In my case, yes, even though I feel the character is on the verge of being unviable I don't think we're at the point where you simply can't perform well with any character yet, as it is in Melee and Brawl. But you do have to make concessions I think if you want to continue winning. My 3rd place I made at my last tournament was using Dedede in conjunction with ROB and Charizard for match-up coverage.

On the topic at hand, ROB might have a harder time moving in than Dedede, but why would he need to approach on Dedede's terms? Gyro and laser place an insane amount of pressure on the big guys. ROB forces Dedede to play his game, and that's huuuge in the match up against Dedede. For now I still stand by my 70:30 rating.

 

[Soul Train]

@ KeithTheGeek , D3 has his weaknesses, but he is nowhere near unviable. Lucina, absolutely. But D3 is forced to 1. Have rock solid defense and 2. Take bigger risks than most of the cast. Some matchups just push both of those weaknesses harder on us. We have to work, but it pays off.

60:40, ROB. He can camp and kill us. But with decent defense we have a lot of tools that can scare him, outrange him, and kill. With momentum we pose a mean threat - but it'll take solid play to get there.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Viability isn't exactly something I want to be discussing here anyways, but I don't disagree with you...I just think that's a touch too optimistic to say he's nowhere near the point.

In any case, would you say Dedede has an easier time dealing with ROB versus some of the other more common characters we've already discussed? I'll readily admit I'm not the most patient player in the world (which is something I've been working on as I've gotten better at Smash 4 in particular) but I'm not really seeing where you would pick up that momentum.

ROB has access to two of the best projectiles in the game. Even power shielding lasers, that still leaves the gyro. Which can be a big boon to us if we can grab it. Something important to note specifically about it is that simply shielding the top destroys it. I don't remember power shielding behavior off the top of my head, but as soon as the top is destroyed he can throw out another one.

Maybe I was being a little too pessimistic about this match-up but I don't see how it's 60:40. 65:35 maybe? I have a decent amount of ROB match-up experience and he's always been one of the more difficult characters to play against as Dedede. Definitely not unwinnable but a complete chore to deal with.

 

[Jdawg26]

60:40 in favor of ROB imo. Most of the time it's pretty obvious when he's gonna gyro/laser so it's more of a nuisance than a dealbreaker.

Rob has throw follow ups for days and a solid defense, but it's the close range (i.e. about 1.5 character lengths away from ROB) where DDD starts to shine in terms of neutral game pressure. We can outrange most of Rob's most damaging options at that distance, and as long as you stay on your toes it can be a pain to keep him out.

Edgeguarding is also a bit easier on him since his hitbox is so large. Just be aware that he CAN'T AIRDODGE AFTER HE STARTS HIS UP-B so it's possible to outrange most of his options provided he takes a predictable path to the ledge. Also, ROB can't have two gyros out on the field at the same time, so if you get a hold of one there are two effective ways of dealing with it: Z-drop-> C-stick aerial or throw it straight up as it falls very slowly.

Don't get me wrong, the matchup is annoying as hell but not necessarily bad. As far as keep-away characters go ROB is fairly mild due to his large frame. Megaman on the other hand...

 

[shrooby]

Would've ended things actually on time but got trapped at a regional which went longer than it had any right to. #_#
Sorry 'bout that.
Course if I had ended things on time then we wouldn't have heard from @ Jdawg26 so that's a plus.
Anyway...

65:35


One thing I feel I should say after rereading things is something I could've sworn I stressed before but whatevah.
The rating is, honestly, not that important. Especially at this stage in the game's life with characters coming and going in terms of meta development.
I do think they have some use even this early, hence why I decided to include them in the first place. For example I like that it can offer perspective with how bad certain MUs are in relation to others. Like saying stuff like "no, ___ isn't 70:30. It's not as bad as ZSS, who was also 70:30. Here's why..."
But the discussion shouldn't revolve around it. Ratings alone don't add to the discussion. Discussion involving high-level experience and character knowledge is mountains more important than any arbitrary number.
You don't give a rating and then give one sentence loosely explaining why it's that. That's not helpful, and posts like that will simply be ignored. You're free to make use of information and opinions given by others here, but please, for the love of all things holy, don't just say stuff like "I agree with ___, 70:30" and leave it at that. Offer your own thoughts. Otherwise you're not adding to the discussion in a meaningful way.

/realtalk


We're going onto a somewhat divisive character: Ness. Not quite done with the top threats just yet.
I think it goes without saying it's really good to avoid getting grabbed lol

Discuss!

 

[KeithTheGeek]

So once upon a time I said I liked playing Ness, but I guess that was before I played any real Ness players hahah. So Ness gets a free 3 or 4 fairs off a hit confirm, and I find PK Fire really hard to escape as Dedede versus other characters (his large hitbox? His weight?). He also just in general has really fast aerials and an astonishing amount of kill potential for someone so small. I'm not too sure how Dedede is supposed to challenge Ness' aerials.

So, whatever you do, don't get caught in the air against Ness. Be ready to react to PK Fire and try to stay a safe distance away. PK Thunder is tough to deal with as a big body, I don't think air dodging is quite safe against it because it'll just catch you out of the dodge with the tail, which can combo back into the main part or, on the ground, into PK Thunder 2. So you know, never air dodge into Ness.

A hit off a PK Thunder can also set you up for an aerial attack from Ness and it applies good pressure on Dedede when he's trying to recover, because of how slow he moves through the air.

I mentioned this a while back, but you can cut PK Thunder 2 short with a Gordo. If Ness is forced to recover low, this is a good way to challenge his recovery.

I'd like to see what everyone else thinks, but I honestly think this is one of his hardest match-ups. The only footage I have of me playing Ness is a couple months old and not particularly good, but it's here if you want to check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsifD_E2FfE

 

[GroveNL]

Personally , i dont think ROB is that of a bad mu against D333.
Yes u can only use up gordo when he is recovering to the stage, but D3 doesn't need his gordo in the neutral against ROB because he outspaces him in the air.
And on the ground just dodge the projectiles and shield grab his ground moves/aerials.
You can also use up gordo when u are approaching ROB to bait him and then punish accordingly.

 

[shrooby]

Personally , i dont think ROB is that of a bad mu against D333.
Yes u can only use up gordo when he is recovering to the stage, but D3 doesn't need his gordo in the neutral against ROB because he outspaces him in the air.
And on the ground just dodge the projectiles and shield grab his ground moves/aerials.
You can also use up gordo when u are approaching ROB to bait him and then punish accordingly.

We aren't discussing ROB anymore. We're discussing Ness and only Ness at the moment.

So once upon a time I said I liked playing Ness, but I guess that was before I played any real Ness players hahah. So Ness gets a free 3 or 4 fairs off a hit confirm, and I find PK Fire really hard to escape as Dedede versus other characters (his large hitbox? His weight?). He also just in general has really fast aerials and an astonishing amount of kill potential for someone so small. I'm not too sure how Dedede is supposed to challenge Ness' aerials.

So, whatever you do, don't get caught in the air against Ness. Be ready to react to PK Fire and try to stay a safe distance away. PK Thunder is tough to deal with as a big body, I don't think air dodging is quite safe against it because it'll just catch you out of the dodge with the tail, which can combo back into the main part or, on the ground, into PK Thunder 2. So you know, never air dodge into Ness.

A hit off a PK Thunder can also set you up for an aerial attack from Ness and it applies good pressure on Dedede when he's trying to recover, because of how slow he moves through the air.

I mentioned this a while back, but you can cut PK Thunder 2 short with a Gordo. If Ness is forced to recover low, this is a good way to challenge his recovery.

I'd like to see what everyone else thinks, but I honestly think this is one of his hardest match-ups. The only footage I have of me playing Ness is a couple months old and not particularly good, but it's here if you want to check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsifD_E2FfE

DDD can like sorta get out of PK Fire with a combination of SDI up and away and his multiple jumps.
Though, generally, Ness has already gotten to you by the time you get out of it.

Dedede can't flat out beat Ness' aerials in frame data, but they can in the sheer range of the hitboxes.
Positioning and potentially baiting out air approaches is key to putting Ness in a tough spot in the air. Retreating, full-hop fair is a good option for punishing wiffed fairs

There are a few important things to note with this match-up, and are the reasons I'd argue Ness is probably one of our better MUs among the high tiers. (And by that I mean Ness' advantage, which he probably has, isn't that great compared to others'.)
Unlike many of our other bad MUs, Ness cannot pressure you from afar when you're both on the ground. IE When we're both in the neutral and relatively even, Ness cannot force you to approach like, say, Fox or Sheik can. Ness' projectiles don't apply ground pressure as effectively. (This also makes FD a usable stage choice.) He also cannot really pressure Dedede into the air like characters like Luigi can.
What this means is that getting to our optimal position on the ground is not as tedious as other MUs. And that optimal position is really important because we can beat Ness on the ground. Just be sure to respect Ness' superior frame data and be ready to shield or jump over stray PK Fires. Running away and then using PK Fire in the opposite direction (towards you) is a mix up to be on the look out for. Also be prepared for SH nairs when Ness is in a tough spot. It's probably his best out of shield option.

Gordos are also important in this MU. Ness doesn't have a good projectile for dealing with Gordos. Thus removing the option for Ness to easily deal with them from afar which is a big deal. (PK Thunder and Fire require too much commitment and aren't spammable in the right kind of way to do this.) Just be aware that the part of PK Fire before it's a firewall does reflect it. The firewall itself doesn't, however.
Ness' best option for reflecting Gordos is nair. This is good because it means Ness will generally look to be in the air to do just that. Since he's pretty floaty, jumping is more of an aerial commitment than, say, Fox jumping. Be on the look out for ways to potentially abuse this.

In general, don't land near Ness unless you're sure you won't get punished for your landing. There is just too much risk of getting grabbed. At about any percent you'll want to avoid getting grabbed like the plague. Usually if you aren't at B-throw kill percent, then you're at d-throw > aerial percent. This is one reason I'd personally avoid FD, just so that Dedede has more landing options. Though I don't think FD is as terrible as it is for other MUs.

This is all a combination of theory crafting based on sets I've done with pretty good Ness players (obviously no FOW or Shaky, but, you know.) and just knowing when and where Ness will beat Dedede. I'm being pretty bare bones. Ness has more advantages than I even mentioned. There's also still off-stage talk.
Someone with with more knowledge is free to call me out on any BS I might be spewing haha

 

[Smooth Criminal]

No, you pretty much have the right idea, @ shrooby . Big takeaway from that post is play at optimal range and avoid getting grabbed if you can help it.

I'd say 6:4, Ness' favor.

Smooth Criminal

 

[JigglyZelda003]

hello D3 boards, the Zeldas would like to invite you over for tea for the week.

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-li...-thread-discussion-king-dedede.384490/page-20

 

[Luco]

This board has some of my favourite posters. <3

The only thing I'd mention @ shrooby is that at long range I probably will sit there and PK Thunder. DDD doesn't quite have the mobility to punish it effectively. At optimal range though, of course, that's definitely a commitment I'm not willing to make.

This is one of those MUs where taking advantage of our poor disadvantage is key. Ness hates being off-stage. Ness hates being juggled. He'll probably go for the ledge to try and reset to neutral. I would argue Ness' advantage is probably actually the key in this MU, because when we get in we want to get a lot of damage in on you and Fair chains, Uair chains (at low percents) and PKT when you're off-stage (though this is riskier than against someone like Ganon) should do quite a bit. But once we're in disadvantage, take advantage of the fact that we're probably going to be using AD a lot.

I've played this MU a few times in tournament but the people I've gone against probably wouldn't compare to higher level DDD's. I'm hesitating to give a proper MU rating on this because I don't think I have enough experience. And right back at ya (lel), feel free to call me out on anything I'm blatantly incorrect about.

 

[Flawed]

Not horrible matchup
60:40 in Ness favor

We can react in shield for PK fire, we can actually hold our own in the ground, and dthrow back air is wonderful because offstage ness is a bad ness. We can "gimp" PK thunder a bit more reliably than say shiek or luigi. We can use nair to stop stupid PK thunder juggles, and gordo is a little more safe to toss rather than say, rob or luigi

Ness has dthrow to fair, but honestly, good ness will go for up airs since he can chain a whole lot of them from a falling up air or a dthrow.The up air has stupid range for some reason, and is a SUPER reliable kill move even after being staled..


-Dtilt fsmash if you dont react quickly
-Fat, up air food
-Dthrow combos for a little too long
-Upthrow to PK thunder can hassle if you aren't ready to reset to the ledge and stop trying to land
-Ness is so tempting offstage, but he can turn it around on you easily with : PK Thunder or Airdodge-instant Up air (wtf this amazing option lel)
-PK fire is pretty much a free grab or something, if it hits, you kinda don't get out as fast as you would think, (possibly because fat?)

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

This is sort of going to focus in on Ness' more or less lack of comfort with being off stage. PK Thunder is a fickle foe for both enemy and friend and can serve as one of Ness' best traits and one of his largest downfalls. You need to learn the timing and the way in which Ness' focuses change when they're off stage and need to return. If you can conceptualize this, it becomes gimp-able or punishable.

A majority of the time when a Ness is at the further stretch of his PK Thunder range, he'll obviously go for the edge. This is also true with when he is below the stage line. Otherwise, he can either go for the edge or go for an inground landing and DI helplessly (which is somewhat of an option because it provides him variation). It's an important thing to realize how long it takes for him to spark himself into PKT2 as well as whether or not you're properly positioned to do anything about him. I cannot stress how much you do not want to be hit by PKT2, especially in this game when its one of his strongest kill moves. His position (and by proxy his options) when recovering should be your focus as any Dedede's play always relies on those heavy reads/punishes.

If he's below the stage line, you can pretty safely do a fall off aerial if he's close enough and since he's going for the edge, you're safe if you miss. With super jump, you can recover from a pretty low point safely.

If he is reasonably over the stage line while close to the stage itself, he has a lot of options. He can go for the edge, go for you, or go for a higher approach and freefall to land on ground. You want to position yourself close enough to the edge to deter him from choosing it but far enough away from him that you are certain you have enough time to react if he fires towards you (Ftilt is a good tool if so). If he goes for the high freefal option, make sure you punish his helplessness (even just a dtilt would help).

If he is within the outer range of his PK but too far to have the stage-landing option, he's going to aim for the edge. I'm not great at punishing it, but I usually try to fall off and put the u-air's rotating hammer hitbox in his way. Disjoints are a good way to deal with such a scary path.

His best range tool in this is PK Fire. It'll cause some Gordo issues and its what he does to turn an otherwise very far distance into his combo. It's important that you are sharp with your shields and approach with aerials. You can outrange in him close combat. This requires very delicate and well timed approaches, as you would normally I guess.

I'm going to refine this later but these are some tips from a guy who plays a lot of Ness in the other games.
This is probably the least threatening character that is considered higher tier.

I have enough Ness knowledge that I feel like this matchup is at least 50/50(I know I don't need the faces for 50/50, they're just so cute) when I usually go into it with someone at my skill level.
Normally, I suppose 55:45 is reasonable.

 

[Axel311]

I don't think this matchup is bad at all for Dedede. Ness just doesn't exploit any of our weakness other than our large hitbox for combos. He doesn't have insane mobility to capitalize on Dedede's bad frame data and he can't zone us out.

Also, Dedede wins hard off stage.

Dedede has big disjoints that give Ness issues. Dedede has to approach but doesn't have a lot of trouble doing so. PK fire if you powershield it is very punishable.

The main thing is to avoid getting grabbed. Ness of course has that nasty Bthrow kill and also has good combos out of grab. Ness can fair combo Dedede, so avoid getting grabbed here at all costs. Like someone else said, at all percents.

I think Ness still has a slight advantage because he gets so much out of grab, is a bit better at neutral and that to me outweighs Dedede's advantage off stage. But overall this is a pretty even matchup to me. One of Dedede's best matchups out of the top 10 characters on the tier list for sure.

55: 45

 

[ZeThundaRippa]

60:40, not too bad, not great either, we aren't quite as harassed offstage as other characters are, and a fastfall can get us out of the Fair combo. My info is useless here since I yolo alot when a Ness is recovering, I fastfall into his PKthunder so he can't recover, but I do often get myself stage spiked. Somehow there is a way to inhale a Ness while he is using his recovery (not the PKthunder itself, the actual recovery), but I've only been able to do it once.

For better advice on this matchup, please see those that are above/\, and below\/.

 

[Jdawg26]

Imo 60:40

This matchup is weird because there's so many different ways to play it out, as both DDD and Ness have the tools to outmaneuver each other in neutral. Each of them have little counters to their options in so many scenarios... Honestly, it'd probably be even without two things: stage selections and that pesky bthrow.

Surprisingly enough, one of our better stages in Smashville actually may not be ideal in this matchup as it has one of the closest horizontal boundaries out of the legal stages making bthrow kill much earlier. In general though, Ness racks up damage easier than DDD, but DDD can punish his landings better than some of the cast thanks to ftilt and jab. And you'll have to capitalize on those openings quite often, because Ness is a ticking time bomb of death tbh...

I could write a whole book on this matchup, but for conciseness I'll do my best to highlight the little facts.

-Ness' fair does 7% if all of the hits connect, while his uair does 13%. So in a usual dthrow-> fair string he'll connect two to 3 fairs after the throw provided he executes it correctly, while if we DI the throw inwards we'll eat an uair and possibly take more damage depending on the landing mixup. Watch your stage positioning and choose accordingly.

-Ness's PKT2 loses distance if it comes in contact with a hurtbox. Many characters can jump out, take the hit, and tech the stage provided that Ness is far enough. However, gordos count as a hurtbox as well and will shorten the distance without the risk provided your aim is good. For the wifi players who don't trust their tech timing, you can also use the armor of your up-b to trigger the shortening.

-For some reason, DDD gets out of PKfire much faster than other characters. I have theories but it's late so if you remind me later I can type them out...
Point is, you can DI up/away and spam jump and you'll pop out fairly quickly. Also, dtilt clanks with it and you won't get caught in the fire if timed properly.

-Backthrow is stupid, you all know this. Especially with rage. If Ness decides to roll towards the ledge, sometimes it's best just to not go for the punish if you aren't 100% sure it'll work, especially with DDD's subpar frame data.

-I swear Ness players have some cult to deny this to death, but Ness' airdodge is very hard to punish. I don't necessarily have advice for this, just be aware of it.

There's a lot of different ways to play this MU depending on how the Ness player does it. A full explanation would take far too long and would almost be impossible... But the tl;dr is that DDD would probably actually win this if he had a more reliable kill setup. Do your best to not get grabbed.

EDIT: BF is worse than Dreamland in this matchup since the platform height on BF allows Ness to fish for options via shorthop while he has to commit a bit more on DL. Other than that, I don't think any stages are particularly awful besides Delfino and Castle in some instances. It's an extremely dynamic matchup though.

 

[shrooby]

Ness is done.

60:40

And now onto an MU I have...more experience with than I'd like lol
We gonna discuss Omar!
This MU was particularly bad in Brawl as well, but let's see how things may have changed for better and/or worse.

Discuss!

 

[The Bread Master]

i guess 45:55 olimar? The pikmin can definitely rack up damage on D3, but dedede's still hard to kill from a distance. Olimar's lighter weight can help D3 out in the long run by being easier to kill, but olimar's fast, and the pikmin only compliment that. Luckily he only has three this time around, but his aerials were buffed, plus D3 being big.... do the math. Olimar can get D3 out quickly, but D3 can also get Olimar out quick, it's just that Olimar has a slightly higher advantage.

 

[SalsaSavant]

This matchup is a unicorn.
Only those pure of heart have ever witnessed it.

 

[Axel311]

Yeah, it is a super rare matchup. Not many people play Olimar, or Dedede for that matter. I've never ran into an Olimar in tourney. Nobody in my area uses him, so the only experience I have is against an Olimar is on For Glory every once in a blue moon.

I'd say it's probably in Olimar's favor because he wins neutral. Pikmin can zone out Dedede well. The few good Olimars I've played I had a lot of trouble approaching. I'd imagine you want to avoid FD at all costs in this matchup. I'd imagine it's something like 60-40 Olimar, but I'm not going to put a rating on it since I have very little experience against good Olimars.

 

[ZeThundaRippa]

Yeah, it is a super rare matchup. Not many people play Olimar, or Dedede for that matter

Well, I'm a rare case .-.

Anywho, Gordo is an extremely good shield against all but the Purple Pikmin, forcing Olimar into a closer range than he's used to. If Pikmin are latched on, I'd normally ignore them and just go for Olimar since most of our approach options knock them off. Unfortunately, we are definite combo food, so avoiding Olimar's jab (it combo's into grab) is necessary. If hit far enough, the Pikmin will detach for a second, leaving Olimar vulnerable, but they normally get to him in time. As a no-duh, if Olimar is left with 1 to 0 Pikmin, juggling him is an incredibly strong option so he can't grab more Pikmin.
I see this match more of a 50:50 with a 50/50 chance of being in the other's favor.

 

[shrooby]

I'll type up something more in-depth later, but for now here's some footage so ya'll can get an idea for some of the general dos and don'ts of the MU:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqe3Lq2n6mA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAcCLBf0NAU

@Angbad is easily one of the best Olimars in SoCal alongside Rich Brown so yes he knows what he's doing.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

Hi Olimar main here, my experience is from a decent dedede main (he goes by atomicblast something on anther's ladder). Honestly a smart olimar wouldnt approach you and would bait the pikmin to dmg you for you to come in. Olimar is tiny as hell and if you don't adjust your attakcs to his height and the player is smart and evasive getting a kill on oli may be rather difficult. What I've noticed from playing him is he tends to spam gordos when he doesn't know what to do, you see thats good if you have the lead, but if you don't he can just time you out as his dmg output far out weighs dedede's. I havent really tested it myself but fsmash does hit the gordos back as well as purples, however regular pikmin tosses just loses to it.I would just powershield all your gordos and wait for you to approach when i see it, however I do believe the best way to net kills on olimar is through edgeguarding since you so many jumps anyways, Olimar wins on the ground hands down. Although if an olimar is being too greedy and trying to fish for a kill that is when things suck for olimar trying to chase down dedede (another reason why olimar approaching a dedede isn't the safest action for an olimar to take) However in neutral purples ae probably what will annoy the hell out of yall as for any matchup so getting rid of them would be wise. Contrary to popular belief he can easily use a pikmin attack out of pluck, so don't be silly and think hes free cuz he has only one pikmin, its a nice bait though you should all keep that in mind. That and dedede is slow as hell , combo food once dedede is forced to approach, gordos don't really make olimar approach its not that hard to powershield them lol.

 

[MuddyMan]

I'd say Olimar has the slight advantage because he can really zone us out with his pikmin. But he also is a very light charachter while we are very heavy so he has to rack alot of damage on us before he can kill and we dont have to rack up nearly as much. I'd say 55-45 in favor of Olimar.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'll type up something more in-depth later, but for now here's some footage so ya'll can get an idea for some of the general dos and don'ts of the MU:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqe3Lq2n6mA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAcCLBf0NAU

@Angbad is easily one of the best Olimars in SoCal alongside Rich Brown so yes he knows what he's doing.

You, sir, need to stop going for command grabs out of neutral.

To clarify: It's a good idea coming out of neutral state, maybe when you're b-reversing it defensively, but it's not a good idea when Olimar is standing there with his Pikmin retinue ready to go. He's just going to chuck one at you that either hits you somehow or you end up swallowing it and you're left vulnerable.

Also, guys, I kind of agree with the commentators: Continue playing your game against this character. Don't let the damage racking scare you. Olimar has a hard time killing D3 unless it's at super high percents and it's a purple or a blue.

60:40, Olimar's favor.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KnightofPizza]

Ah, yes, the rare and exotic Olimar. All that I can say has already been said, unfortunately. This is another matchup I don't really know.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

You, sir, need to stop going for command grabs out of neutral.

To clarify: It's a good idea coming out of neutral state, maybe when you're b-reversing it defensively, but it's not a good idea when Olimar is standing there with his Pikmin retinue ready to go. He's just going to chuck one at you that either hits you somehow or you end up swallowing it and you're left vulnerable.

Also, guys, I kind of agree with the commentators: Continue playing your game against this character. Don't let the damage racking scare you. Olimar has a hard time killing D3 unless it's at super high percents and it's a purple or a blue.

60:40, Olimar's favor.

Smooth Criminal

Purples side smash and upsmash kill earlier than the other colors especially with rage, it doesn't need to be at "super high percents" either...so yeah you can feel safe with olimar's pikmin tacking on all that percent all you want but just a read with them moniques and its a stock