RCO lag and Lucario; Jab -> FP legit combo!?! USmash and DSmash guarenteed kills?

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Gentlemen! RCO lag.

http://vgbootcamp.com/entry.php?16-Metagame-Minute-RCO-Lag-Mechanics

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=252451

So, this will involve some theorycraft, due to DI 'n all, but let's look at our frame data...

Jab1
Hitbox on frame: 6
Hitbox ends on frame: 9
IASA: 10
Complete on frame: 20
(Dis)Advantage: -8
Shieldstun: 5
Hitstun: 18

Jab2
Hitbox on frame: 9
Hitbox ends on frame: 12
IASA: 13
Complete on frame: 22
(Dis)Advantage: -7
Shieldstun: 6
Hitstun: 21

For Jab 1 (assuming we hit someone on frame 6):
3 frames of hitstun advantage at the end of the move, but take into consideration RCO lag...

The 3 frames become 18 for the soft landing of Mario, Luigi, Peach, Ganondorf, Kirby, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon, Squirtle, Charizard, Lucario >.>, and Marth if they use certain B moves before landing on stage.

Spoiler

List of moves that give you the lag.

*The first number is the amount of frames of lag you get for a soft landing and the second number is the lag for a heavy landing.
[/COLOR]

UpB - 15F/30F


UpB - 15F/30F


UpB - 15F/30F


UpB - 2F/10F


UpB - 2F/7F


UpB - 15F/30F
SideB - 15F/20F


SideB - 15F/25F
DownB - 15F/25F


UpB - 15F/19F
SideB - 15F/25F


UpB - 15F/19F
SideB - 15F/20F


UpB - 15F/36F
SideB - 15F/25F


UpB - 15F/30F
SideB - 15F/20F


UpB - 15F/24F


UpB - 15F/30F


UpB - 15F/30F


UpB (ledge snap) - 15F/5F
UpB (free fall) - 15F/30F


UpB - 15F/35F

-situational
peach - after she closes her umbrella once with upB (it does not go away if you reopen it)
bowser - only when you're in the air with upB (going off stage with grounded counts)
dk - only when upB was used in the air (going off stage with grounded won't get penalty)
kirby - after turning back from a stone from a downB
ganon - only when you're in the air with sideB (going off stage with grounded counts)
fox - after saying "fire" with upB
falco - after saying "fire" with upB
falcon - only when sideB was used in the air (going off stage with grounded won't get penalty)
pikachu - after getting the full distance of the first upB
lucario - during the freefall animation of up B (for heavy lag)

Canceling the penalty with an aerial.
The blog says using an aerial as you land overrides the penalty which isn't completely true. You still get extra lag added to your aerial's landing lag. The amount of lag that gets added is about 35%-40% of the aerial's original landing lag. Since this a percentage increase, you really want to use your least laggiest move when you land for the safest and quickest landing.

Comparison of aerial landing lag to aerial landing lag with the penalty.

Pikachu
Nair 25F>34F
Fair 15F>21F
Bair 30F>41F
Uair 24F>33F
Dair 40F>55F

Pika's fair is the safest move as it is by far his fastest move and only adding 6 frames with the penalty. Pika's Dair with the penalty adds a massive 15 frames of lag adding up to almost a full second of lag when he lands with it. That's enough time for Ike/DDD to hit him with an fsmash. So be careful with what you land with. For some characters, sometimes it's best to just land with a soft landing instead of an aerial since it's always 15 frames.[/COLOR]

What are our options then?

Usmash
Hit Box 1 on frame: 12

Dsmash
Hit Box on frame: 17

Force Palm
Grab Starts On frame: 9

Fair
Hit Box on frame: 7

Uair lol
Hit Box on frame: 10

Dair
Hit Box 1 out on: 4

And our grabs obviously.

So... we can get away with things like... if Falco uses his Side B onto the stage and we Jab him out of it we get a free DSmash, USmash, Force Palm, etc. out of it. Guaranteed kill setups, how about that?

So yeah, if we had concrete data about our Aura Sphere charge we may have even more setups.

 

[hichez50]

Are there any guaranteed combos if we use up tilt if the opponent is at low percents due to RCO lag?

 

[D. Disciple]

Question, did you test these out yourself, these guaranteed combos or usmash and dsmash, or is this still in the lab to be experimented on?

 

[phi1ny3]

Don't forget to add charge delay to smashes, usmash is actually pretty slow because of this.

Even if it's c-sticked, smashes have extra frames from animation prior to the "release" of the smash. That's why some smashes come out faster when released from charge as opposed to immediately inputted.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

@Disciple - I haven't tested these, yet, but due to the amount of research put into RCO lag... I'd be surprised if they were inaccurate. However, since I only really have one working controller that's gonna be a bit difficult to test by myself. Any Brocarios wanna help?

@Phil - But still the earliest a smash can come out is on your frame data thread, right? With charge delay it seems a bit too risky to pull off in my opinion... ALL HAIL THE C-STICK!

However, there is one thing I forgot... Hitlag... Although it should be very minor due to jabs being so weak...

Could someone test RCO lag + Jab -> USmash/DSmash/FP on Falco and Pika?

I mean you know how Falcos love that Side B. If we can punish them at high % and Jab -> USmash/DSmash/FP... I think that MU may turn out in our favor. Remember RCO lag carries over if they don't jump and land...

@Hichez - I don't know probably heavily depends on DI. Probably be good against the Space Animals tho.

 

[D Who?]

Oh wow, and I was just telling myself how the lucario boards are no help. This helps alot. I take back what I was thinking and congradulate you all! Great info.

 

[culexus・wau]

All you need to do is ask

or make an idea

preferably in a thread [QnA thread is for simple questions and loooosers, threads for indepthness is where its at]

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

D Who, I recommend looking through the old threads I made. You will not be disappointed.

Also, look at threads made in 2008 there are some interesting tidbits there too. Yeah we need a new database...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I can work on making one, also maybe a new Lucario Guide.

 

[D. Disciple]

What's the point of jabbing them?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

To slightly pop them into the air, so that they will suffer RCO lag when landing in addition to hitstun.

 

[D Who?]

I've seen them Myth. I've lurked the boards for a year or two before joining. I joined when I felt I could play on a competitive level. I learned alot from you guys when I was a new player, but now I get on every month or so to see what you guys have.

I do the same with Olimar and Wolf. Wolf boards are finding some good stuff lately so I been there mostly

 

[AlexoftheAura]

I might be misunderstanding something about RCO lag here (admittedly I've only skimmed the info) but doesn't the fact that you have to jab to pop them up into the air mean they already touched the ground and suffered the lag?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I might be misunderstanding something about RCO lag here (admittedly I've only skimmed the info) but doesn't the fact that you have to jab to pop them up into the air mean they already touched the ground and suffered the lag?

Let's say Falco uses a grounded Phantasm. You Jab him, he gets popped in the air, when he lands he will suffer RCO lag and gets smashed.

You ever notice whenever Marth tries a grounded Dolphin Slash you're given like forever to punish him?

RCO lag activates when the character lands on the ground after initiating a RCO lag move. If they grab the ledge and do a ledge getup attack, roll, or w/e when they go into the air again and land they will suffer RCO lag.

For us though... I don't know if it gets carried over to our next landing if we AS charge cancel from the air or not. It'd probably be a good thing to test.

 

[culexus・wau]

it carries

I've lost many a stock to RCO over being stubborn to not let it activate :>

 

[Steam]

a new Lucario Guide.

I made one that I wanted other people to review edit and make official or something ;-;

then no one said anything other than "neat"

 

[RT]

Things Lucario guide should have:

-Brief overview regarding metagame and summary of character
-Detailed breakdown of moves: hitboxes pictures, frame data, application, etc.
-Breakdown of Aura and stale moves
-Doubles metagame/partners
-Stage lists for Starters, CPs, character specifics, wallcling spots, stage quirks, etc.
-Brief touch on DI/SDI/Shield DI
-Brief matchup discussions
-Random tips
-??????
-PROFIT!

I dunno what else, these are things that should be known to get started. The rest is all practice and just playing...like some of the stuff is basic, but it's surprising how people forget about the basics. Like...a guide is a guide, it can give you tips, but how you play a character varies by individual.

 

[Browny]

Why do you need permission from anyone Steam?

You own this board just as much as anyone else here (minus MLG/admins), mods just have the right to infract people who break global rules, thats it.

 

[RT]

^This.

The guide needs an update anyways.

Better a guide that is updated slowly than a horribly outdated guide.

We can add suggestions later.

 

[Steam]

k, I'll make it presentable and post it. probably soon.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Does anyone know if RCO lag gets added to footstooling someone before they land after using an RCO lag inducing move? If so that would be very lulzy.

 

[IceDX]

Nice thread ima go test this stuff out

Edit: this works really good vs falco!

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Does anyone know if RCO lag gets added to footstooling someone before they land after using an RCO lag inducing move? If so that would be very lulzy.

It does. So long as they don't land with an aerial or on their feet.

So long as they bounce from the footstool, if you do it too high up they can do something before hitting the ground and cancel it out.