Raziek's Robin Research Room & Repository (Moveset, Mechanics & Frame Data!)

[DraginHikari]

https://vine.co/v/O72Pn5bhaQH

Thoron is reflectable. Even at the tail end of the move.

Never use it against Mario or Doc.

That was one bizarre looking reflection animation. Though I guess Thoron is different enough from previous projectiles that is going to cause some odd looking effects.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The Cape literally caught Thoron at its tail with its own backwards hitbox's tail end. The Thoron is still going to change direction at the point its head is at.

It behaves like any other projectile. Thoron just happens to be a very long projectile.

 

[NinjaLink]

https://vine.co/v/O72Pn5bhaQH

Thoron is reflectable. Even at the tail end of the move.

Never use it against Mario or Doc.

I came here to post it but you already beat me to it. Yea this will be a problem lol

 

[Hong]

The fact your opponent has a reflector is all the more reason to use projectiles. Expect it, and plan around it.

Given we found out Thoron is a projectile and not a particle, this outcome was already clear. Especially after it was made clear that Thoron is variable, being able to elongate the product by holding down the B button.

 

[Metarai]

If you don't have a wind tome, then you cant recover. I think it also uses two uses per recovery (he shoots it out twice), so if you have one use left he will only shoot out one Elwind.

 

[Uncertain Title]

Hm...you know, I never thought of this. That's actually kind of a scary thought! Btw, I'm pretty sure you're spot on about the durability; using it twice counts as two uses.

 

[shane3x]

I dont think a single use of the move counts as two usages. Just saw a video of someone doing it 3 times within a very short space of time and didnt see the tome disappear/flash.

 

[Raziek]

Not quite.

What we mean is that Elwind essentially has 18 'uses' of the tome.

Elwind consumes 2 of those uses (one for each burst).

If you get hit out of it or something, and end up on the odd number left, then the last cast will only give you 1 slash.

 

[Hong]

I merged @ Metarai 's thread stating how Elwind works into here, as we already have a lot of the data.

The fact your opponent has a reflector is all the more reason to use projectiles. Expect it, and plan around it.

Given we found out Thoron is a projectile and not a particle, this outcome was already clear. Especially after it was made clear that Thoron is variable, being able to elongate the product by holding down the B button.

Also I decided to elaborate on a post I made earlier.

First of all, here is Falco's Blaster from Melee:

When we slow down the frame data, we can see that the laser is gradually generated from the designated entity, positioned of course to emerge from his Blaster. You can see that the laser is a particle effect, a defined self-generating form of graphical asset. The actual hitbox is a distribution of red bumps over the particle effect. There are many terms for how it can generate addition hitboxes part of a master hitbox, but for all intent and purposes they are a "family", and they all function together.

It is likely Thoron functions similarly. Hold b, more of the actual hitbox is generated. Similarly, since they are all a family, you can just reflect one and they must all obey the script.

 

[Uncertain Title]

But in Thoron's case, the hitbox appears more at the tip of the beam rather than at the starting point?

 

[Hong]

But in Thoron's case, the hitbox appears more at the tip of the beam rather than at the starting point?

Both.

 

[Uncertain Title]

Huh. So it's just gonna be that much more impossible to dodge if it's reflected. Well shoot.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Or Pocketed.

But in Villager's case you can probably bait a Pocket so they can snag an Arcfire, then blast them with Thoron while they try to figure out what to do with Arcfire.

This also screws up Thoron kills you can get against Game and Watch, but WITH GW in Doubles, this gets more fun. He can just jump in at any point and absorb it, even if it hits someone along the way. Nice utility.

 

[MindlessFire]

Thoron is A LOT faster compared to Samus's Charge Shot and Lucario Aura Sphere. When fired at close range, it is nearly impossible to dodge, block, reflect, ect. unless done ahead of time. Is Thoron with the B button held down a reliable kill move?

 

[Raziek]

Is Thoron with the B button held down a reliable kill move?

Absolutely. Especially if it's Thoron+

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Saw that in Tumblr and I can really see this being a problem. But ain't Arcthunder more ideal choice for 1 VS 1s anyway?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Arcthunder for the followups, Thoron if you get a read or catch someone in Arcfire.

 

[False Sense]

Arcthunder for the followups, Thoron if you get a read or catch someone in Arcfire.

That is, assuming the opponent has a reflector.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The good thing is Thoron is not Robin's only kill move. You can dance around Mario's and Doc's short-ish range with your aerials and come in for the kill with a Levin aerial or Levin Smash. (Wonder if the shockwave from Dsmash can be reflected...)

It's a matter of going into the Mario, Doc, ROB, GW, Fox, and Ness fights with a different gameplan.

Palutena will be a huge pain in the ass though with that Reflect Barrier.

 

[Delzethin]

Palutena will be a huge pain in the *** though with that Reflect Barrier.

Provided the one you're facing is running it. Although I imagine they'll switch to Reflect Barrier one round later if rulesets allow you to change loadouts mid-set...

 

[Mr. Johan]

Reflect Barrier - Cast a reflective wall that moves forward for a short distance. Can be used to push rivals.
Angelic Missile - Hurtle forth and collide with enemies to send them flying.
Super Speed - Dash headfirst into opponents. You can even jump and attack while dashing.

Between those three options, I'd think Palutena would carry Reflect Barrier 100% of the time. Especially top level Palutenas who know how to use Lightweight effectively. I guarantee Reflect Barrier will be the dumbest move in competitive play.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Does Levin Sword DSmash consume lightning tome durability?

 

[Mr. Johan]

It's coming directly from the Levin Sword itself; Bronze Sword Dsmash has no shockwave. Thunder tome shouldn't be affected by it.

 

[Hong]

Does Levin Sword DSmash consume lightning tome durability?

The downsmash consumes only one out of the eight uses you get with the Levin Sword.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

It's coming directly from the Levin Sword itself; Bronze Sword Dsmash has no shockwave. Thunder tome shouldn't be affected by it.

The downsmash consumes only one out of the eight uses you get with the Levin Sword.

Hah, thinking about it now, this was a silly question. Cause the shockwaves still appear with DSmash even if you've consumed the lightning tome, as long as you have the Levin Sword, right?

 

[Hong]

Hah, thinking about it now, this was a silly question. Cause the shockwaves still appear with DSmash even if you've consumed the lightning tome, as long as you have the Levin Sword, right?

Correct.

The Levin Sword's electrical properties are what generate the shockwave, and it's not related to the Thunder tome.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

rubin i lov u

pls rubin

---

I need to learn about my future main, Robin, so I'll be coming here now.

 

[young grasshopper]

So what exactly are Robin's custom moves? What uses do you think they will have? And which ones will you be using?

 

[Hong]

So what exactly are Robin's custom moves? What uses do you think they will have? And which ones will you be using?

@ Raziek has already listed all of Robin's moves, custom special moves included. Thus, I have merged your thread here.

A lot of us have stated our opinions, though for the most part a lot of us are merely speculating until we can all try them out ourselves.

 

[Iron Maw]

Reflect Barrier - Cast a reflective wall that moves forward for a short distance. Can be used to push rivals.
Angelic Missile - Hurtle forth and collide with enemies to send them flying.
Super Speed - Dash headfirst into opponents. You can even jump and attack while dashing.

Between those three options, I'd think Palutena would carry Reflect Barrier 100% of the time. Especially top level Palutenas who know how to use Lightweight effectively. I guarantee Reflect Barrier will be the dumbest move in competitive play.

Might as well add Rosalina or anyone with a reflect or deflector in the cast as other problematic issues. heh

That said despite the annoyance of having more or less half our options shutdown we still have options. I think the Dark tomes with the will shine the most in these type of disadvantaged situations because there is little your opponent can do about them other than hoping you whiff. We still have our main killing power; Levin Sword along Jabs. So while reflectors are an issue Robin is versatile enough to handle them to a good extent from what I have seen. But It's definitely important we learn to adapt to those scenarios especially since "hard counters" may very prominent this time given how wildly one character plays from the next one.

 

[•Col•]

Reflect Barrier - Cast a reflective wall that moves forward for a short distance. Can be used to push rivals.
Angelic Missile - Hurtle forth and collide with enemies to send them flying.
Super Speed - Dash headfirst into opponents. You can even jump and attack while dashing.

Between those three options, I'd think Palutena would carry Reflect Barrier 100% of the time. Especially top level Palutenas who know how to use Lightweight effectively. I guarantee Reflect Barrier will be the dumbest move in competitive play.

Palutena's keepaway game seems quite annoying for Robin, yeah, but I think we have some ways around it. Or at least some ways to help alleviate the reflect barrier spam.

Fire wall shoots down at a sharp enough angle that it looks like you can jump up and shoot it downwards over the wall. Distant nosferatu (possibly goetia) can be used somewhat like a projectile that can grab through the wall. Speed thunder to charge up thoron quickly and use it during the reflect barrier downtime. And if it gets reflected, not as big of a deal since its not as powerful as the typical thunder.

 

[slimjim]

Note to Raz:
ZeRo yesterday confirmed that, similar to how it was in brawl, in this game the damage and/or knockback values are different in training mode than they are in multiplayer matches. Very few people actually knew that about brawl, but there ya go. I don't know if that changes any of the %values and whatnot in the original post, but ^ has been confirmed to be true for smash4.

 

[Raziek]

Good to know. Once the English version releases I'll get my second copy and test it myself

 

[Soft Serve]

Move didn't stale in training mode in brawl iirc, and moves going stale was/is huge in slower games like brawl and maybe sm4sh where you need to fish for kill moves.

 

[Hong]

Thankfully, Arcfire spam should help to maintain the health of our attacks. On a mechanical level, I'll assume every hit of Nosferatu will renew our other attacks as well?

 

[Soft Serve]

I dont know how multi hit moves work for stale moves.In melee it only stales once, in brawl each hit stales (it might be the other way around, can never remember) but i'm curious how it works in smash 4.

 

[Hong]

I retract my previous statement.

Looked it up. For Smash 4, it's identical to Brawl. Attacks that are binary in repetition only count as one hit. So the wind jab combo should, for example, should count both the first and last attack as separate moves, but the rapid attack only counts as one.

 

[Raziek]

Christmas came early! I have (partial) frame data!

*Please note: I did not obtain this personally, so I cannot test further data myself.

@Shaya @C.J. @~Firefly~ @Nairo @Trela

 

[NinjaLink]

Made an additional video to inform those who didn't know about Thoron+ and what affects how much you heal from Nosferatu.

 

[Raziek]

Made an additional video to inform those who didn't know about Thoron+ and what affects how much you heal from Nosferatu.

Just to be sure, have you read through the OP thoroughly?

I've posted most of this information already, so I'm just unsure if you're making these as 'supplemental material' or for content on your own channel, or what.