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Note: When Smash 4 speculation came around, Mario was highly speculated to take some aspects from Galaxy 1+2, namely with the galaxy spin. But when Rosalina was added, she took the central gameplay elements of Galaxy/Rosalina's characterization as a mother of Lumas and incorporated it into her own move-set:
Mario could have easily been inspired to take great gameplay elements from the Galaxy games to have his character be of a different play-style. Instead Rosalina incorporates this despite these her not doing these elements in actual gameplay. It would not be that farfetched for Tom Nook to incorporate an upgrading money play-style for Smash despite the villager player mainly doing these tasks. Animal Crossing's gameplay aspect of upgrading through money provides enough substance to create and play around these mechanics, which is best incorporated for Tom Nook specifically because of his characterization and role of taking care of money business.
I suppose that it is fair that I clarify more on the the move-set matter. A huge, central part of Animal Crossing's gameplay is upgrading. With New Leaf specifically, you begin living in a tent for a home.
When you get the bells needed over the course of time and do Tom Nook's deeds, you are rewarded with a brand new house.
From there, you are able to upgrade tools and other shops that expand on what the player can do when spend the time and bells to help others. It is a great and very addicting part of Animal Crossing that gets players coming back to AC every day, maintaining the game's immensely high replayability. Tom Nook would represent the upgrading gameplay aspect of Animal Crossing greatly because of his fond love of bells and how that connects to upgrading. He is still a big part of upgrading, especially with homes in particular. Homes have become a such central aspect of Animal Crossing that Nintendo made a spinoff surrounding on designing homes for animal villagers, of which Tom Nook still runs.
The satisfying feeling of upgrading in AC would translate well into an interesting move-set for Tom Nook. It is the type of gameplay that Villager has yet to cover in Smash. The Villager covers a variety of tools such as the shovel, slingshot, and gyroids, balloons, fireworks and others, but not really the upgrading part of Animal Crossing. This part of Animal Crossing would provide enough inspiration for Sakurai to create a move-set out of Tom Nook from scratch, taking inspiration from the upgrading gameplay aspect. Maybe the more you hit the opponent in battle, the more money you gain for upgrades, allowing for a play-style that rewards skillful gameplay.
This is why I continue see Tom Nook as a stand-out character Sakurai would choose for Smash Switch.
Joking aside, you're right that the concept of upgrading is part of the core Animal Crossing experience. It's a very common theme in games, though to Animal Crossing's credit the upgrades are much less abstract and thus lend more to a moveset than something like levels in an RPG. At the same time, many of those clear upgrades are already taken by Villager, or would likely be taken by Isabelle.
Normal > silver > gold tools would be neat, but unless you were dipping into semiclone territory or reimagining how they lend to combat they'd be off the table. There are plenty of expandable shops to go around, but aside from one or two they're owned and operated by other characters. Tom Nook's strong bond with homebuilding is already represented in Villager's final smash, going so far as to include the character in question. Villager could always get a new final smash, but that'd only be necessary if Sakurai believed that there was a more accurate way to represent Nook.
I don't believe that making him the physical manifestation of upgrading, one with limited access to many of the most iconic signifiers of the franchise, would be an improvement.
My reasoning is similar to that of Isabelle for my abstaining, he's a pretty iconic Nintendo character but I as an AC character I don't imagine him as a fighter, so I'm not really comfortable giving him a specific rating. But I would have no problem being proven wrong if he's playable. Difference with Isabelle is that he didn't show the same passifism as her in her Assist Trophy role.
Lip prediction: 7.10%
Nominating:
Returning fighter: Corrin x4
Returning game mode: Smash Run x1
Joking aside, you're right that the concept of upgrading is part of the core Animal Crossing experience. It's a very common theme in games, though to Animal Crossing's credit the upgrades are much less abstract and thus lend more to a moveset than something like levels in an RPG. At the same time, many of those clear upgrades are already taken by Villager, or would likely be taken by Isabelle.
Normal > silver > gold tools would be neat, but unless you were dipping into semiclone territory or reimagining how they lend to combat they'd be off the table. There are plenty of expandable shops to go around, but aside from one or two they're owned and operated by other characters. Tom Nook's strong bond with homebuilding is already represented in Villager's final smash, going so far as to include the character in question. Villager could always get a new final smash, but that'd only be necessary if Sakurai believed that there was a more accurate way to represent Nook.
I don't believe that making him the physical manifestation of upgrading, one with limited access to many of the most iconic signifiers of the franchise, would be an improvement.
The fatal flaw of this argument is that a final smash does not equal a fully fleshed out play-style. A final smash could easily be changed to reflect what newcomers were proposed for this game, such as Pit's Final Smash no longer becoming Palutena's army:
To Pit having the Great Sacred Treasures as the Final Smash in Smash 4:
Them having a previous role does not dismiss those characters for Smash Switch. What happened previously bears no influenc1e, as Sakurai will be picking which newcomers to add in a clean slate. People keep saying that ATs would be a special case of upgrading from non-playable to playable, but do not consider the idea that Final Smashes could easily change it, even though we already witnessed this with Palutena.
Tom Nook would still have a distinct play-style not yet seen by the current cast from Smash 4. Him representing the upgrading aspects of Animal Crossing is the most accurate way to represent Tom Nook Smash-wise.
The fatal flaw of this argument is that a final smash does not equal a fully fleshed out play-style. A final smash could easily be changed to reflect what newcomers were proposed for this game, such as Pit's Final Smash no longer becoming Palutena's army to Pit having the Great Sacred Treasures as the Final Smash in Smash 4.
Them having a previous role does not dismiss those characters for Smash Switch. What happened previously bears no influenc1e, as Sakurai will be picking which newcomers to add in a clean slate. People keep saying that ATs would be a special case of upgrading from non-playable to playable, but do not consider the idea that Final Smashes could easily change it, even though we already witnessed this with Palutena.
I fear we're beginning to argue in circles. My point wasn't that Villager's final smash is unchangeable, but that vital elements of Tom Nook's character are already well-represented in it. While Palutena's identity changed drastically between the retro Kid Icarus titles and uprising, Nook has remained largely the same. Nothing especially noteworthy has been given to him since Smash 4's release that'd force one to reevaluate who he is or how he works, so I don't see why giving him a proper moveset now would be an attractive prospect.
Tom Nook would still have a distinct play-style not yet seen by the current cast from Smash 4. Him representing the upgrading aspects of Animal Crossing is the most accurate way to represent Tom Nook Smash-wise.
The idea of moves being upgraded is already represented in characters like Wario, Little Mac, and especially Cloud. Even the process of Villager's tree-growing reflects this idea somewhat. Certainly Sakurai could introduce a new twist on the formula, as he has with all the fighters mentioned, but there'd need to be a strong enough hook to spark that inspiration in the first place. Evidently Tom Nook and his history with remodeling struck a strong enough chord with you that you were able to devise a gimmick he could use, but I wouldn't extend this same level of faith in that aspect of Nook's character to anyone else unless there was very specific evidence to the contrary.
I think this is where the argument should end for us, because we have different views on what is noteworthy and sufficable for a play-style. In my personal opinion, Tom Nook utilizing money to upgrade his moves is a note-worthy enough to create a fresh play-style to distinguish him from other "upgrade" characters like Cloud. Tom Nook would not be utilizing upgrades in the same way as Cloud, as he would upgrade by gaining money from skillfully attacking the opponent to gain powerful moves. Cloud literally holds the B-button to get an upgraded special move, making him rather straight-foward. Tom Nook's method of upgrade provides complexity and satisfaction, able to withhold a large slew of cash to pay for powerful attacks until he gets KO'ed, reseting his money counter.
That is different enough to me. The core idea of Tom Nook's play-style is distinct enough to invoke inspiration from Sakurai.
Blue, I really admire your devotion to your favorite characters. You always put so much time into making your arguments, and everything you present is really well thought out.
I'm sure Sakurai could make Nook a reasonable and representative moveset. After all, how many of the characters currently in Smash have completely original yet fitting moves? True, it'd be tough and would take time to pull something out, but he could do it and do it well.
The bigger question for me (and some others, from what I've seen) is whether it's worth it, particularly for Nook. Isabelle debuted in New Leaf in 2012/2013, and pretty well since then she's been in the spotlight, while Nook has been being pushed farther into the realm of just another NPC. If Sakurai had wanted Animal Crossing in Brawl, Nook would probably have been that representative, but since then Isabelle has all but ousted him from the spotlight. I can't realistically see Sakurai adding anyone other than Isabelle for animal crossing as a character at this point - she got the Assist in the last game, not him. Also based on timing: she's hogged the spotlight within a year to go from nonexistent to an assist and her stock is still growing based on her getting cameos everywhere, while Nook hasn't really been heard of since then by people who don't play the games. Yes, Sakurai has pulled a fast one on representation before when he took Lucina over Chrom, but that was because Lucy was a clone, while Chrom was considered 'too similar' to those already represented.
Of course, all of this is not to mention whether Sakurai will even give Animal Crossing another rep in the first place. He didn't include any AC newcomers in Brawl because he didn't see a good way to translate the game into fighting, so they ended up with nothing but a stage. By Sm4sh, they finally got the first character. True, AC is a big money maker for Nintendo and their series is going strong, but if reception was the only metric that got series representation, we'd be wondering if maybe Kid Icarus would deserve a second rep and who the fifteenth Zelda character would be, not to mention that Pokémon and Mario would probably have 30 reps each.
I've given up on trying to accurately predict Sakurai since he does like to surprise us and subvert expectations: an AC newcomer seems likely based on importance to Nintendo, even though it would be some work to pull a new moveset out (but he does like a challenge). Two, however, where one of them is out of the spotlight for the past five years...that's harder to buy. Not saying it can't happen, but it doesn't seem very likely, and even then Nook may have a bit of competition with KK if Sakurai wants to remove the Saturday night concerts on the stages - KK did also get a Mii costume in the last round, not Nook.
As for me personally, I'd be open to him...assuming he also put as much time and effort into other series as well. In my eyes, Sakurai's been neglecting the Zelda franchise since Melee, so seeing him carefully craft two new characters from a series which is utterly non-combat would be annoying if he can't even bother to throw a much bigger (to Nintendo and the public - consider how much BotW was talked about at E3 2016 compared to any other game from any other developer) and easy-to-make-movesets-from series a bone, not to mention other series which are also going strong, but are more favored in the west so they're completely languishing in representation.
I appreciate the compliment greatly. Any compliment makes my time in Smash speculation worth it for me.
I would like to say something on the matter of multiple newcomers. In Smash 4, we had Rosalina AND Bowser Jr. in the same roster. Rosalina, at the time, was notably pushed in Mario game marketing far more than Bowser Jr., and her recent appearances in 3D world and in Mario spinoffs had lead to her being revealed as playable for the game. Does this mean that Bowser Jr. would have been discounted because Rosalina was pushed more? No. Bowser Jr. was part of Smash 4's roster plan alongside Rosalina because of his central importance for the New Super Mario Bros. series. With both characters providing distinct gameplay potential with the Clown Car and Galaxy mechanics, they both made it in Smash 4. This is why I see the idea of two Animal Crossing newcomers not being a far fetched idea. I see Tom Nook AND Isabelle being added due to high promotion, importance to the series, and gameplay potential with New Leaf's mayor gameplay/AC's money upgrade gameplay aspect.
By the way, I added a little detail in my Tom Nook RTC analysis you guys might be surprised by. TCT~Phantom will spot it very quickly.
Tom Nook
Chance: 20%
He's a well-known AC character, but Isabelle seems to have taken away Tom's status as the Main Animal of Animal Crossing. So unless we get two AC newcomers or Sakurai decides to pick Tom first, he probably isn't happening.
Want: 50%
I have no strong feelings one way or the other on AC characters in general. Though Villager was really fun to play as so I'm sure other AC characters would be, too.
Chance: Abstain
Probably the only time I will ever abstain from a rating but I haven't played Animal Crossing. I will give it a shot one day but the seemingly pointless nature of the game is off putting for me. That being said I do have a few thoughts on the matter. While BluePikmin does have a solid idea of what Tom could be like that doesn't mean Sakurai would see the same potential. A good example is Ridley. The fans have a solid idea of how to make him playable while Sakurai doesn't know how to do it. Sakurai is a creative guy with a creative team with him so it's possible they see that potential and just as possible they don't. Next as far as I know as someone who next to nothing about Animal Crossing Isabella or whatever her name is seems to be the flavor of the month right now so Nook may lose out to her. I believe Nook is the more important to the series but that doesn't mean he'll be picked. And that's all considering AC gets a new character which it seems just as likely Villager will fly solo again. If I said anything wrong in regards to AC facts please forgive me I'm at work and didn't want to miss the day so I don't have time to fact check my post. Want: 50%
No love for the series means I have no strong feelings towards his inclusion
Do I need to remind you of how confident you were in Dr. Kawashima for Smash 4?
Like, it's one thing to think a character's likely and to see merits in it regardless of others' opinions, but you can't possibly be that certain. We couldn't even say for sure that Mewtwo was coming back in Brawl without it biting us in the back.
@jamesster445 Your post did not meet the Rule 2 guidelines. Indefinite Minimum
Your post is clearly a joke, and your noms will not be counted
Also remember the rules in the OP exist for a reason. I do not care about any drama that people have, but keep it out of here if it does not apply to the day at hand.
“The first thing is to take an idea. For example, imagine a game and characters within that game. Take a character such as the villager in Animal Crossing. The next process is think about that character's role in their game and then the structure of the game we're making. How do those work together with each other? What kind of interesting things can you do within the structure of the game? And then if you were to actually implement that character, how would the end result be, how it works with other elements of the game?”
Take the idea of Tom in Animal Crossing as a potential fighter:
1. What is the character's role and in their game and in game?
A: Tom Nook's role is being a merchant who helps the villager with paying debt and helping with money matters, pointing house upgrades as a notable example.
2. How do these two work together with each other?
A: The connection can easily work with Tom Nook's fond love for money business and associating with how money connects to upgrading aspect of gameplay, making a combination that feels perfectly natural for the character.
3. What kind of interesting things can you do within the structure of the game?
A: Within the context of using currency, you can upgrade homes, tools, shops over time by spending the time to help neighbors and discover valuable items via hidden spots to earn yourself fun gameplay options that raise the replayability of the game.
4. If you were to actually implement that character, how would the end result be, how does it work with other elements of the game?
Creating the connection Tom's love for money business with the upgrading aspect of gameplay, you can translate the satisfying feeling of upgrading in AC to an interesting move-set for Tom Nook. The basic gist of his play-style would be utilizing bells to spend on powerful weaponry for your recovery, houses, and other tools. The more you skillfully beat your opponent, the more money you earn. This character would provide a distinct and complex move-set that greatly differentiates from other upgrading characters like Cloud.
The connection is very easy to make as someone who knows a good idea on how Animal Crossing's gameplay mechanics. It will not be difficult for him to figure out how he can work.
Do I need to remind you of how confident you were in Dr. Kawashima for Smash 4?
Like, it's one thing to think a character's likely and to see merits in it regardless of others' opinions, but you can't possibly be that certain. We couldn't even say for sure that Mewtwo was coming back in Brawl without it biting us in the back.
With the research I have done Sakurai interviews/criteria and the many things I have pointed helping Tom Nook's inclusion for this RTC discussion, my mind confidently tells me he is a certainty. It is an opinion I feel worth the risk expressing. It is just when I take the time to research, connect the dots, and think critically, I reach a connecting alignment it gets me truly confident about a character getting in. It is a very satisfactory feeling Tom Nook is someone I feel immensely confident about than Sora and Isabelle at the moment. I could be wrong, which is why I left the 1% there. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I will be surprised. The discussion for Tom Nook helped expand upon my points about Tom Nook to so many great lengths that the worries I had about Sakurai not being able to see potential within the tanuki merchant have completely disappeared. This is my personal stance on the matter, which is why I chose to rate in numbers now and give Tom Nook a 99% chance. It is to express my statement and confidence in this newcomer. I understand your concern though, and I am perfectly fine.
I know that he's the face, or former face to AC, but he's still fighting for a spot with Isabelle. Who's not only more heavily promoted, but could take away his importance for future games.
But the question remains if we will get more than one AC character in Smash.
Want: 50%
I'm neutral on him and love all the theories and memes surrounding him. But Isabelle is the superior character in comparison.
Do I need to remind you of how confident you were in Dr. Kawashima for Smash 4?
Like, it's one thing to think a character's likely and to see merits in it regardless of others' opinions, but you can't possibly be that certain. We couldn't even say for sure that Mewtwo was coming back in Brawl without it biting us in the back.
Tom Nook:
Chance: 25%
Tom Nook has an alright chance at making it in. Animal Crossing is definitely big enough to warrant a second character. There really isn't much going against him, but there isn't much for him either. If a second Animal Crossing rep were to be chosen, it would be between Isabelle and Tom Nook. I don't think this matchup is that lop-sided either way. Isabelle is more popular, but popularity isn't everything and Tom Nook may be chosen because of a more unique moveset idea. This is all speculating if we get a new AC newcomer, which I think is split 50/50.
Want: 50%
Before, I would have put it at 0-5%, but after reading all of the posts about his possible character, I'd be fine with him getting added. It seems he presents a lot of more concepts that I had originally thought.
Tom Nook
Chance: 20%
Animal Crossing has become huge over the years, and Tom Nook has always been present in them. His biggest obstacle is Isabelle, as she's more popular.
Want: 65%
I'd prefer him to Isabelle. I've never thought Isabelle fit as a fighter, but I think Tom Nook would fit.
I hope it's Nil. It would be an awful pick. I'd rather they just put in a second villager with a different moveset---like having the slingshot work like it's supposed to (like an up smash that goes full screen); incorporating the fishing rod (could be a tether recovery, or a Scorpion-style command throw as a side special); taunts based of the emotion faces (like the shock face); or have Pocket work like Peach's Turnip Pull. All of that would be way more interesting than trying to hamfist Nook or Isabelle in, who have lack an established base of maneuvers to draw from like a Villager.
In fact, just make a classic Villager (appears pre-New Leaf) and a modern Villager (New Leaf and beyond) like Link and Toon Link. That would satisfy me completely if they don't muck up the movesets.
I hope it's Nil. It would be an awful pick. I'd rather they just put in a second villager with a different moveset---like having the slingshot work like it's supposed to (like an up smash that goes full screen); incorporating the fishing rod (could be a tether recovery, or a Scorpion-style command throw as a side special); taunts based of the emotion faces (like the shock face); or have Pocket work like Peach's Turnip Pull. All of that would be way more interesting than trying to hamfist Nook or Isabelle in, who have lack an established base of maneuvers to draw from like a Villager.
In fact, just make a classic Villager (appears pre-New Leaf) and a modern Villager (New Leaf and beyond) like Link and Toon Link. That would satisfy me completely if they don't muck up the movesets.
I haven't given the thread a full read. I wanted to make sure I got my rate in before the day prematurely ended again. Apologies if I'm retreading ground that's already been covered in past pages.
Tom Nook
Tom deserves playable. That's my opinion, even if the chance score doesn't corroborate that sentiment. Without him, I'm not confident that Animal Crossing becomes anything other than a short-lived flash-in-the-pan. Here's the rundown. Nook is an NPC who is usually found taking an active role in immersing the players: when he's not financing their homes, employing them or selling them some rather important items, he's teaching them the basics. He gives them a sense of purpose, a direction and something to work toward - which he's reviled for. He even runs the main shop in every game. As the player grows and prospers, so does he.
Tom Nook stands head to head with the player avatar in importance, and that statement may trigger some people, but it's true. His participation is key to the experience and I would argue that he's a major reason why Animal Crossing became the addictive experience it did, because half the time players are either furnishing their homes or upgrading the homes themselves. People respond to incentives, so what's the incentive to pour hours and hours into a game like this without an end point? There has to be a rich cast with personality and a world that's believable. Something that credibly presents itself as a thriving society with its own set of expectations. Nook was central to that idea, and as much as he's pegged as a villain for not giving away homes for free, that bitter dose of reality is what adds a level of believability to the world. Having to work for everything and having bills due are things that suck on the surface, but are what imbues the series with its lasting appeal. That's the hook! The journey of exerting yourself to acquire more things while achieving a healthy balance in your roles and responsibilities.
To add, Animal Crossing easily warrants two characters. Actually, three is not out of the question considering the stature of this franchise. It's good that people have caught on to how important this IP is. It's not some niche simulator with a cult following. It received its own CUP in Mario Kart 8 to go with three racers (I'm counting the gender split because the stats differ), a cart, a bike, a glider and a course referencing Animal Crossing itself. The course is filled with cameos and comes in 4 different seasons. They rolled out the red carpet, and that little outing was a microcosm of all the content that's in a single game. In short, there's room for growth.
Lastly, I don't believe Villager adequately represents AC on his own, and I adore the character for his multitude of in-game references. The commercial and secretarial/town planning aspects of the games are still untouched concepts that Nook and Isabelle are able to embody as playable characters. I won't speak on Isabelle's chances today; her résumé lacks in comparison to Nook's, but she is a valid option. Bottomline: Tom Nook won't look out of place being next to Villager on the character select screen, and for the record, I think Joan is the true villain of the series.
Blue, I respect your perspective, but can you please tell me why Sakurai would look at the character in the first place? What would make Sakurai consider Nook to begin with? I feel like I'm missing something.
Your posts explain how Nook could be implemented, but they don't explain why he would be.
He isn't popularly requested, he has competition from Isabelle, KK, and Resetti within his own series, he's represented faithfully as it is in Villager's final smash, and there's a lot of questions about whether we'll ever see one Animal Crossing newcomer, let alone two.
Plus, Sakurai can only include so many characters, and others are more popular, more easily implemented, and more commonly requested.
Tom Nook, frankly, is on a different tier than characters we're expecting like Captain Toad, Dixie, Impa, Bandana Dee, Lycanroc/Decidueye/Mimikyu/Incineroar/ Bewear, and Isabelle. He doesn't have the ballot going for him like with Ridley, King K. Rool, or Waluigi...
So what does he have that makes him worth considering? His moveset could be unique, but not to the same degree of Rosalina, so it wouldn't be a case like that. If we're looking at promotion for Animal Crossing, then just adding Isabelle already brings that series into the limelight.
What does he bring that would draw someone to him at all?
I answered most of that via my analysis and comments here.
As for how Sakurai would consider Tom Nook, he can be easily considered in two ways. I will touch on it briefly, since it is late at night here and the day is ending. One his large amount of requests that he had over Villager despite the player character being primarily considered by Sakurai in Brawl and Smash 4. He would have likely been aware Tom’s higher amount of requests at the time and would probably note this popularity for future reference with Smash Switch newcomer consideration.
“We do various kinds of research during the planning stage. We consider the inclusion of characters that feature in games being developed at the same time, are highly requested by users and are popular within their series.”
Even if Tom and Isabelle were less requested in the ballot, the characters’ popularity in the Animal Crossing franchise will get them considered for playability. Once Sakurai thinks about what these characters are distinctly known for and delves into gameplay potential for these newcomers in the same manner he explained in the Kotaku interview I mentioned earlier, that will convince him to add both Tom and Isabelle because of the distinct play style they provide when basing it on the major gameplay aspects of Animal Crossing.
We can discuss it more later in the Tom Nook support thread or the Official Smash Switch thread in general discussion tomorrow if you wanna continue the topic.
Chance: 20%
He was the prime candidate of Animal Crossing, once. But people like Isabelle a lot more these days, and for good reason too.
Money-based movesets are a lot less appealing when your game doesn't have an economy system.
Want: 15%
Animal Crossing always strikes me as a franchise that really isn't meant to birth playable Smash characters. It's one of those where the fighting potential of practically everyone in it is too small to make any moveset based off of them inherently worthwhile, putting all the weight of the character's appeal onto the moveset's shoulders.
Sakurai would not see it as making Tom Nook a playable moveset. He'd see it as having to make a moveset that made Tom Nook playable - an absolute effort for someone who isn't even in the spotlight anymore and doesn't have that much in the way of accomplishments to offer. There are so many candidates both old and new to consider, and Tom Nook lost his reservation seat the day Villager was added.
I answered most of that via my analysis and comments here.
As for how Sakurai would consider Tom Nook, he can be easily considered in two ways. I will touch on it briefly, since it is late at night here and the day is ending. One his large amount of requests that he had over Villager despite the player character being primarily considered by Sakurai in Brawl and Smash 4. He would have likely been aware Tom’s higher amount of requests at the time and would probably note this popularity for future reference with Smash Switch newcomer consideration.
“We do various kinds of research during the planning stage. We consider the inclusion of characters that feature in games being developed at the same time, are highly requested by users and are popular within their series.”
Even if Tom and Isabelle were less requested in the ballot, the characters’ popularity in the Animal Crossing franchise will get them considered for playability. Once Sakurai thinks about what these characters are distinctly known for and delves into gameplay potential for these newcomers in the same manner he explained in the Kotaku interview I mentioned earlier, that will convince him to add both Tom and Isabelle because of the distinct play style they provide when basing it on the major gameplay aspects of Animal Crossing.
We can discuss it more later in the Tom Nook support thread or the Official Smash Switch thread in general discussion tomorrow if you wanna continue the topic.
I read all of your comments and your entire analysis, but you didn't mention why he would initially be considered, which is what I was getting at.
“We do various kinds of research during the planning stage. We consider the inclusion of characters that feature in games being developed at the same time, are highly requested by users and are popular within their series.”
An Animal Crossing game hasn't been in development as far as we know, and Nook is no longer highly requested. Further, while Nook is popular, he's not as popular as Isabelle or even KK Slider, instead being kinda infamous.
Chance: 12%
Used to be considered the AC front runner, but I actually have a hard time picturing him over Isabelle now. He can’t be completely discredited though ofc. He’s still a major Nintendo character and we know now that there’s no problem with adding AC characters, like once had been previously established
Want: 65%
There’s nothing wrong with him. Also nothing I’d get crazy excited over
Lip prediction: 11.5%
I think we’ll be hearing the name Takamaru a whole lot tomorrow
x5 Style Savvy character
I’ll help with Viridi after this is out of the red. I like both and want to get to each eventually oop
I have a question for the owners of this thread, though I'm not sure who I ought to direct it to.
Jigglypuff and Ness are on the list of characters that we won't discuss due to likelihood of their return, but is it not fair to consider a discussion of them given how they've almost been cut in the past?
I don't think they will be, but it might be worth letting people nominate them.
Tom Nook:
Chance: 2% In some respects, Tom Nook is a no-brainer. He is from a very popular series with only one playable character. However, two things prevent him from being a character. One, Tom Nook is not a fighter, as there is no combat in the Animal Crossing series. Two, the Villager represents Animal Crossing in such a way that a second character is not needed. It was already challenging to make a moveset for one Animal Crossing character, and I don't think there's enough room for two.
Want: 0% No thank you. I believe Villager is the only Animal Crossing representative needed. Adding a second feels like overkill.
I read all of your comments and your entire analysis, but you didn't mention why he would initially be considered, which is what I was getting at.
“We do various kinds of research during the planning stage. We consider the inclusion of characters that feature in games being developed at the same time, are highly requested by users and are popular within their series.”
An Animal Crossing game hasn't been in development as far as we know, and Nook is no longer highly requested. Further, while Nook is popular, he's not as popular as Isabelle or even KK Slider, instead being kinda infamous.
Not that I think it really matters, but if you want relevance for Tom Nook, he was present in Animal Crossing amiibo festival, serving as one of the primary characters, who was also on the front cover of the game:
There is also Happy Home Designer. Both of these games came out in 2015, the same year Xenobade X came out to be considered relevant candidates Sakurai would consider.
You put emphasis on the two former points of the interview, but fail to neglect that those are just one of the ways Sakurai can consider characters. When he made Smash 4 and decided on all of the newcomers that would be included, not every newcomer followed with high demand. A number of characters can contest to this notion like Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, and to a Smash 4 DLC extent, Corrin. Corrin in particular was likely a low demand character, whose method of being chosen was primarily being a game that came out at the time Sakurai was considering a promotional candidate.
Tom Nook is still just as famous and relevant as he always was. He may not be as famous as Isabelle, but he sure as heck is still a famed icon in both the gaming and Animal Crossing fanbase, still adored to this day to be considered by Sakurai for the project plan in 2016. For another method of being considered, you point out that Isabelle would be considered due to how pushed she was in AC, that will likely open the floodgates of considering other potential AC candidates. Tom Nook will be one of the very first characters to be thought of considering his famed status. The chances of him not being considered is very very low.
Bottomline: Tom Nook won't look out of place being next to Villager on the character select screen, and for the record, I think Joan is the true villain of the series.
I have a question for the owners of this thread, though I'm not sure who I ought to direct it to.
Jigglypuff and Ness are on the list of characters that we won't discuss due to likelihood of their return, but is it not fair to consider a discussion of them given how they've almost been cut in the past?
I don't think they will be, but it might be worth letting people nominate them.
Well, you’d be the first person to want a character like Young Link in Smash. Clones aren’t popular, and multiple versions of the same character aren’t exactly what people clamor for (see the want score for Ganon). A legendary character like Link might get a pass by most due to his history and the fact that every Link is technically a different character.
Villager isn’t really a defined character, more like a player avatar, so them being in the game taking two character slots would be the most controversial thing to ever get into Smash. I mean what would you even call the character? Money Villager? Fishing Rod Villager? It’s just easier to give whatever moveset can be conceptualized to other characters like Nook and Isabelle.
Also, if you want to check out a great concept moveset for Nook in this thread, I’d recommend checking out BluePikmin’s post a couple of pages back. I’m pretty sure there’s another one, but I can’t remember the poster so that’ll have to do.
99% is too high for any newcomer, especially when the only shoo-in has already been confirmed. It's just foolish to think someone is a guarantee like that, especially Tom Nook of all people who faces heavy competition from Isabelle and uncertainty that we'll even get an Animal Crossing newcomer in the first place.
Well, you’d be the first person to want a character like Young Link in Smash. Clones aren’t popular, and multiple versions of the same character aren’t exactly what people clamor for (see the want score for Ganon). A legendary character like Link might get a pass by most due to his history and the fact that every Link is technically a different character.
You could stand to be more charitable with me. Replace Young Link with Toon Link here and I wonder if you'd say the same thing. Granted, I haven't heard people discuss Toon Link's inclusion when Link already exists, and Toon Link's thread on the Veteran board is on the second of two pages, but I have never seen a Link player that also picks Toon Link nor a Toon Link player that also plays Link; they have distinct playstyles and ways of moving and fighting that make the only superficially the same. I think this kind of semi-clone just werks as a character, and so I'm asking people to consider the same method applied to old Villager and new Villager.
I would also contradict you here: tr4sh's clones aren't popular. Ganondorf, Falco, Toon Link, Lucas, hell, even Roy, were all clones and were/are all popular. Still, even Lucina got some play from the GOAT in tr4sh and really believed in her, so I wouldn't go so far as to say that clones are inherently unpopular. I think Doc and Dark Pit's relative languishing in tr4sh have to do with how stupidly Sakurai's team designed them.
I'm going to assume that you've played Animal Crossing, no? Let me ask you this: would it not be badass if Sakurai made all of their tools the Golden versions?... There you go---Villager indeed is a defined character in the sense that they have a lore to draw from when making the character. tr4sh could have included all of the tools in the moveset and still had stuff left over to put in.
Who cares? Sure, it's a matter that needs to be dealt with, but it's the pettiest argument that could be made against not semi-cloning. Pit's clone is literally named "Dark Pit", lmao.
What would his general move-set and play-style be? Tom Nook would be standout by being a merchant-based fighter, who would utilize bells as a method of storing power for special moves. The more bells Tom Nook stores up, the more expensive and powerful his moves become. One of the first three special moves that would utilize bells would be placing down a house. The more bells you store the bigger and fancier the house will be, working well as a form of stage control. Second, tossing his bag of bells as a debt attack. The more bells you store, the more powerful the drop. Third, Tom Nook temporarily flies with his tanooki tail (Taking a bit of creative liberty from Super Mario Bros 3., much like how Villager uses Balloon Trip for his recovery in Smash 4). The more bells you store, the more expensive the transportation and defensive his recovery will be. He can ride an airplane at max bell power. Tom Nook utilizing capitalism for battle would make him a very enticing character to implement in Smash.
Is it wrong I have never played an AC game? They just do not interest me. Tom Nook clearly is at this point the second choice for an AC newcomer. Now, AC is a big enough series and has made enough strides that i can see two newcomers (tbh few series other than Xeno, Pkmn, DK, or Mario can I reason two non clone newcomers). However, Isabelle must come first and Sakurai must deem him worthy of a slot.
They aren't must-plays, but they fill a niche that has been mostly empty. It's a second life game that only people with smaller lives in real life would love.
Today we got Lip, the fairy from Panel de Pon. Rate her in chance and want. Also please predict the scores for @Graizen 's favorite character Agumon. The fact Agumon lost out on the schedule two weeks in a row still amazes me.
Chance: 2%
DLC needs to be, above all else, something that will sell. Nintendo has made a point of not allowing Lip in the West, and it's unlikely that Intelligent Systems is developing a Panel de Pon game that needs advertising. If she were to have been in Smash 4, she would've had to have been in the initial roster.
Want: 100%
Would represent a notable franchise from an underrepresented genre that could really do with another entry. Could also have any of several interesting gameplay gimmicks if Sakurai willed it. When's Panel de Pon: Uprising?
This was the post I made in the RTC thread for Smash 4 DLC. It was the only time I participated in RTC at all, prior to this thread. Most everything I posted a few years ago still rings true today, with minor differences.
Lip
Chance: 7.5%
In lieu of discussing Lip's moveset potential in detail, I'll instead link her support thread here. In addition to the Moveset Ideas spoiler, there are additional move concepts both in the Fan Art spoiler and in the thread proper. The abstract is that despite Lip never being directly controllable, there's more than enough gameplay ideas from Panel de Pon that could be transferred into a cohesive and very unique Smash moveset. Implementable in a way that's respectful and representative of Panel de Pon's style and feel, there's plenty of interesting potential to be explored in turning this puzzle series into a fighter. It's almost inconceivable that Sakurai wouldn't find Lip to be realizable for this reason, so any opposition to her inclusion will be for entirely different reasons.
Sakurai has been aware of who Lip is since at least Melee, and has yet to introduce anything about her other than her wand as an item and her garbage block as one of Kirby's rock transformations. She hasn't even been given so much as an assist trophy, which would've brought her to the West for the first time and warmed people up to the idea of her eventually becoming playable. While Sakurai has shown a strong fondness of reintroducing modern audiences to classic gaming icons, all retros so far have been from the NES/Famicom era. Admittedly there's never been any statement that retros have to be from that particular system, but as far as patterns go it's proven to be a fairly consistent one. Even if she were on the table, however, Takamaru is all but confirmed to be first in line for the privilege of a Smash revival.
Every time a game starring Lip, or the very similar Furil, was brought across the ocean, it was reskinned to look like another series. The original Panel de Pon became Tetris Attack, starring Yoshi and friends. Panel de Pon as a franchise was rebranded as Puzzle League, closely associated with Pokémon. Pokémon Puzzle League and Pokémon Puzzle challenge weren't even based on specific Panel de Pon titles, the fairies were left in the dust entirely. Although there have been exceptions in the past, Sakurai has stated that he's uncomfortable with the idea of Japan-only newcomers. This was his logic for excluding Takamaru from Smash 4, who has since received an international release. Between Takamaru's re-energized clout and Sakurai's apparent unwillingness to be the one who introduces Lip to the West, this represents yet another closed door.
Sakurai has previously expressed the sentiment that a series lacking in a clear future would be unlikely to receive a character. Panel de Pon hasn't received a new game in a decade, and Lip herself has largely been missing even longer since she was being phased out of the newer entries even in Japan. In the most recent Panel de Pon game, she appears as just an unlockable skin in the Japanese version. Lip hasn't appeared as a proper character since the Japan-only Captain Rainbow, also a decade old. These facts paint a rather grim picture of Panel de Pon's, and especially Lip's, future. Still, the series does have the tiniest spark of life even without all that.
A couple years back, Animal Crossing: New Leaf received a free update. This added, among other things, the following mode:
This new mode is Panel de Pon in all its glory, even equipped with additional ways to play. While it doesn't star Lip, it shows that Nintendo hasn't entirely abandoned the series, and that the core gameplay still has broad appeal. While Lip herself may not be recognizable outside her home country, Panel de Pon (or Puzzle League) still has some notoriety.
Furthermore, the unlockable "Flower Fairy" clothing line is the closest Lip has ever been to seeing an official release of her character in the West:
The time period this update was released aligns very closely with the time period the Smash 5 roster was decided during. It's far from impossible that Sakurai would've been aware of this, especially since he'd likely already have been investigating Animal Crossing for the sake of giving that franchise another representative. I'm sure it made him happy to see that, besides just himself, there were others who cared enough about classic Nintendo history to bring something back from it.
While not a new title, the original Panel de Pon was re-released for the first time in quite a while on the Super Famicom Mini:
The Super Famicom library is filled to the brim with knockout titles, so to be one of only 21 games chosen to represent the system is no small feat. It's unlikely that this signals a new upcoming entry in the series, and even less likely that this came out in time to influence Sakurai. If nothing else it's yet another sign that Nintendo remembers that the games were once, and still remain, well-loved.
With Puyo Puyo, another puzzle franchise which had a very similar history of Western reskins, seeing strong international success in Puyo Puyo Tetris, perhaps the stage has been set for Lip to one day see the light as well?
Want: 100%
My most wanted since Smash 4 pre-release. While I once wanted Lip purely for the selfish reason of encouraging more Panel de Pon games to be released, everything I've since learned about her has led me to the conclusion that she'd make a stunning addition to the Smash roster regardless. She's everything I desire in a newcomer: Plenty of interesting moveset potential, unique design, ambassador of a huge genre of gaming that's been largely untapped in Smash thus far, represents a previously unrepresented and certainly underappreciated franchise that could really use a new entry, a franchise which I'm more than a little fond of.
Whatever the future may hold for both Panel de Pon and Smash, I'll always hold onto the hope that their destinies will intertwine.
