Because that's no fun
Lanturn def < Rotom forms, but Water typing > Ghost and Surf > Shadow Ball at least.
That guy was "brave" for leaving his Lanturn out vs your Flygon -.-
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"Rate My Moveset!" :: Moveset Critique Thread
- Thread starter ss118
- Start date
Lanturn def < Rotom forms, but Water typing > Ghost and Surf > Shadow Ball at least.
Because Lanturn can't be paralyzed or pursuited.
At least it's something to consider, lol
ss118
Smash Master
By that logic so does Lanturn. =/
Lanturn has Hydro Pump. A little better, I promise you.
Lanturn has Hydro Pump. A little better, I promise you.
What if lanturn ran stockpile over its coverage move?
Charge/Hydro Pump would work moderately well by itself and sub/stockpile would make it bulky enough to tank hits and continue to stat up against enemies without stab-EQ (and could easily switch after forcing a choiced attacker to use earthquake)...
Charge/Hydro Pump would work moderately well by itself and sub/stockpile would make it bulky enough to tank hits and continue to stat up against enemies without stab-EQ (and could easily switch after forcing a choiced attacker to use earthquake)...
The problem with Stockpile is that you only get 3 boosts, which usually isn't enough to help against most of the physical attackers of OU. Unboosted Salamence can still EQ to break the sub and then EQ again to deal lots of damage before the next sub or Dragon Dance to boost, although +3 Charge Beam will kill after Life Orb and so will +2 Hydro Pump. CB Scizor's U-Turn still breaks the sub and lets Scizor switch out to something that can take the hit like (depending on what he uses) Vaporeon, Jolteon, or Flygon.
What's astonishing though is that Scarf Flygon's Earthquake only deals 50% to +3 Def Lanturn. However, it will OHKO if you don't have such a boost.
So in the end, I think Stockpile would be a cute trick at best.
What's astonishing though is that Scarf Flygon's Earthquake only deals 50% to +3 Def Lanturn. However, it will OHKO if you don't have such a boost.
So in the end, I think Stockpile would be a cute trick at best.
It would play a lot differently with Stockpile though, trading coverage for the ability to **** all over stall. It would have the potential to set up against stall teams and be unremoveable as it will KO all common phazers with a combination of Charge Beam+Hydro Pump except Swampert, Vaporeon, and Suicune (and Vaporeon/Cune will be crippled switching in and tanking 2 Charge Beams just to phaze you out). The only thing that would limit its ability to set up in the face of stall would be Toxic Spikes (as it outspeeds most users of Toxic) and you can run a toxic spikes supporter of your own like Roserade or Tentacruel to get toxic spikes up for your team while removing theirs by switching in. At +6 you do 53% minimum to 252 SpDef Calm Blissey with Hydro Pump (which is risky but doable to win if Blissey isn't running Protect, and you can set up all over it regardless of what attacks it runs). Anything else common on stall teams will be outrun/set up on. Sounds pretty good on paper to me 
This sounds so good I might make a team around it. xD
This sounds so good I might make a team around it. xD
Rumikun
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2005
- Messages
- 173
I've been keeping a new set to myself for about a week prior to Latias being banned in the event that it was. I'd like to share it with you now:
Salamence @ Choice Specs
Naive/Hasty, Intimidate
4 Att / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Draco Meteor
Hydro Pump
Fire Blast
Outrage
As you can see, this is simply a specsmence with outrage on it. However, where this differs from the prior specsmence is the key to this set. Prior to Latias being legal in OU, Salamence was given Choice Specs as specsmence rather uncommonly, but rather used as mixmence. Prior to that, Salamence was commonly seen with Choice Specs. However, the difference is not the functionality, but rather the differences in metagame. When specsmence was the popular option:
- Blissey was #2 in usage, with Garchomp at #1 in usage. This means that the standard specs set was hard countered by the #2 most used Pokemon in the game, as well as hit super effective and OHKOd by the #1 most used pokemon in the game.
- Because Blissey usage was so high prior to the current metagame, there was a significant chance that any given team had a Blissey on it ready to counter your Specsmence. Now, Blissey is more or less exclusive to stall teams.
- Other pokemon in the given speed range often used higher speed investment than they do now. Generally speaking, the only pokemon that run that speed range now are Salamence and Jirachi. Salamence no longer can get away with 299 or 308 speed, but 328 is necessary. However, other Pokemon that run 306 such as HP Ice Zapdos no longer do for the most part and don't have to be accounted for.
- Since Garchomp was banned, teams no longer commonly carry 3 ice attackers. Without Latias or Garchomp, Salamence only fears dragon type attacks from other Salamences. This effectively means that, for OU, Salamence lost a significant amount of pokemon from it's threat list.
- With Latias and choice Garchomp banned, there is much less incentive to use 3+ steel pokemon per team, making Draco Meteor KOs much more viable in the long run.
-Finally, the specs set was common and thus expected frequently. With the advent of Latias making Specsmence strictly inferior, Specsmence dipped under the radar regardless of Latias's fate from that point on. Specsmence is once again a legitimate surprise.
This Salamence can still break walls to some extent and 2HKOs Blissey with Outrage after SR damage about 75% of the time (130 Def/ 688 HP) so in the event that you get a stall team down to Blissey as its last Pokemon you still have a way to win. Either Hasty or Naive can be used, but I prefer Naive to keep dual Intimidate switches viable when used in tandem with Gyarados. Moreover, it's a tried and proven set in the first place.
Salamence @ Choice Specs
Naive/Hasty, Intimidate
4 Att / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Draco Meteor
Hydro Pump
Fire Blast
Outrage
As you can see, this is simply a specsmence with outrage on it. However, where this differs from the prior specsmence is the key to this set. Prior to Latias being legal in OU, Salamence was given Choice Specs as specsmence rather uncommonly, but rather used as mixmence. Prior to that, Salamence was commonly seen with Choice Specs. However, the difference is not the functionality, but rather the differences in metagame. When specsmence was the popular option:
- Blissey was #2 in usage, with Garchomp at #1 in usage. This means that the standard specs set was hard countered by the #2 most used Pokemon in the game, as well as hit super effective and OHKOd by the #1 most used pokemon in the game.
- Because Blissey usage was so high prior to the current metagame, there was a significant chance that any given team had a Blissey on it ready to counter your Specsmence. Now, Blissey is more or less exclusive to stall teams.
- Other pokemon in the given speed range often used higher speed investment than they do now. Generally speaking, the only pokemon that run that speed range now are Salamence and Jirachi. Salamence no longer can get away with 299 or 308 speed, but 328 is necessary. However, other Pokemon that run 306 such as HP Ice Zapdos no longer do for the most part and don't have to be accounted for.
- Since Garchomp was banned, teams no longer commonly carry 3 ice attackers. Without Latias or Garchomp, Salamence only fears dragon type attacks from other Salamences. This effectively means that, for OU, Salamence lost a significant amount of pokemon from it's threat list.
- With Latias and choice Garchomp banned, there is much less incentive to use 3+ steel pokemon per team, making Draco Meteor KOs much more viable in the long run.
-Finally, the specs set was common and thus expected frequently. With the advent of Latias making Specsmence strictly inferior, Specsmence dipped under the radar regardless of Latias's fate from that point on. Specsmence is once again a legitimate surprise.
This Salamence can still break walls to some extent and 2HKOs Blissey with Outrage after SR damage about 75% of the time (130 Def/ 688 HP) so in the event that you get a stall team down to Blissey as its last Pokemon you still have a way to win. Either Hasty or Naive can be used, but I prefer Naive to keep dual Intimidate switches viable when used in tandem with Gyarados. Moreover, it's a tried and proven set in the first place.
I disagree with that you said about steel types not being common on teams anymore simply because they're often used as a catch-all for defensive weaknesses that a team might have. Scizor is also going up in usage more now since Salamence is "the best" pokemon in the metagame right now and Scizor "counters" him. Other than that all your reasoning is sound...for now. It's like you said before, this is going to be a good surprise but not much more.
Not to burst your bubble but Mow and I had this exact same idea the instant we heard Latias was banned. Not to say "We did it first" but likely that "None of us did it first and there's probably alot of other people who are thinking the same thing."
But not just that...it's a SLOWER, LESS BULKY Latias that can hit physically and trades its pursuit weakness for whatever the rest of what you said is.
Clearly this makes it much better.
Rumikun
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2005
- Messages
- 173
When the surprise is a good one, it is still likely to net an extra KO out of 6. A good set does not require more than that. Besides, the lack of proper weaknesses in the metagame is why smogon hates dragons in the first place.
I'm not trying to talk the set up from what it is, and it is still strictly inferior to Latias in every way except that it is currently legal.
edit: as for the usage of steel types, Latias (specs or midrange tank versions primarily) necessitated the use of steels or Tyranitar. Although statistics do not reflect a change and may not for a month or two, I feel that they will eventually shift away from steels slightly to maybe only one or two per team.
Here's a set that looks really dumb on paper but might work in UU:
Absol @ Chople Berry/Focus Sash
Jolly / Pressure
160 HP/96 Def/252 Spe
Taunt
Mean Look
Baton Pass
Substitute/Sucker Punch
Absol draws out walls and scares off ghosts in UU. Using Mean Look on the switch can cause a lot of problems for your opponent if they switch in a wall/phazer. Chople will let you take Hariyama's force palm once if they attack as you taunt them (otherwise, taunt will stop you from being whirlwinded out) and then bp out. Running max speed will give you the likely chance to get the pass off successfully, as 75 speed is not at all bad and a lot of things in UU run neutral natures for the extra power, meaning Absol will be able to pass out of a lot of things that would destroy him like Blaziken. Taunt/trapping something like Hariyama will give bulky setup sweepers like Calm Mind Slowbro, Curse Registeel, Dual Setup Rhyperior/Torterra (RP+SD), Kabutops, DD Altaria, or even something that can bulk itself up like that Stockpile+Charge Lanturn set I talked about (which could probably work better in UU). Absol is uniquely suited to this different sort of threat because he is uncommon in UU today and also is capable of totally ****ing over his normal counters in this way (He can even trap and baton pass out of technitop with chople!). Sash lets it lead and **** over a lot of things in UU that are too slow to actually beat him otherwise.
Absol @ Chople Berry/Focus Sash
Jolly / Pressure
160 HP/96 Def/252 Spe
Taunt
Mean Look
Baton Pass
Substitute/Sucker Punch
Absol draws out walls and scares off ghosts in UU. Using Mean Look on the switch can cause a lot of problems for your opponent if they switch in a wall/phazer. Chople will let you take Hariyama's force palm once if they attack as you taunt them (otherwise, taunt will stop you from being whirlwinded out) and then bp out. Running max speed will give you the likely chance to get the pass off successfully, as 75 speed is not at all bad and a lot of things in UU run neutral natures for the extra power, meaning Absol will be able to pass out of a lot of things that would destroy him like Blaziken. Taunt/trapping something like Hariyama will give bulky setup sweepers like Calm Mind Slowbro, Curse Registeel, Dual Setup Rhyperior/Torterra (RP+SD), Kabutops, DD Altaria, or even something that can bulk itself up like that Stockpile+Charge Lanturn set I talked about (which could probably work better in UU). Absol is uniquely suited to this different sort of threat because he is uncommon in UU today and also is capable of totally ****ing over his normal counters in this way (He can even trap and baton pass out of technitop with chople!). Sash lets it lead and **** over a lot of things in UU that are too slow to actually beat him otherwise.
Basically yeah, but there's another advantage which is just that Absol brings out a different crowd to counter it. Basically surprise vs. bulk (and the fact that umbreon got moved to OU again >_>) They expect to be hit with a swords danced SOMETHING and then just get trapped. It's great
So this is what I was going to use in my deck in this week's weekend tourney. It was metagamed for that for the most part, but I tested it on the standard ladder and I can say that it works decently against the metagame as a whole. Moves I tested are in bold.
Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Naive
252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe
-Close Combat
-Overheat
-Stone Edge/Thunderpunch
-U-Turn/Shadow Claw/Toxic
In the past when people used ScarfApe, they almost always used specially based builds. But why? It's true that Infernape has a stronger special attacking game than physical attacking, but does it not have access to amazing physical moves like Thunderpunch, U-Turn, Stone Edge, and most of all STAB Close Combat? And doesn't he have incredible speed when scarfed to make his large attack seem even more significant? How could people have ignored this for so long?
This Ape hits things and he hits them hard. He's a fantastic revenge killer. Most of these moves are self-explanatory. Close Combat is a STAB, Overheat is also a STAB and it does more than Fire Blast on this set. Stone Edge is recommended over Thunderpunch because of Salamence's presence in the meta. With just Thunderpunch you can't deal with Mence alone even though it gives you an easier time against water types. However, Thunderpunch only deals 25% to Crocune, 33% to Vaporeon, and even though it kills Gyara after a Dragon Dance, so does Stone Edge (and even when it doesn't kill it has a high crit chance which is not the most reliable thing but it works). The fourth move can be scouting, coverage, or filler. I used U-Turn for scouting and to hit psychics that try to come in like Celebi and Starmie (and Azelf if anyone uses it as more than a lead). However, this set does have a problem against bulky Rotom-As, so Shadow Claw could be an option here. However, I've found that the best way to deal with Rotom is to poison it since it will also tell you if it's running Rest or not, so Toxic is also viable here. Naive is used over Hasty to reduce the damage taken from CB Scizor. It's only a 4% difference in damage, but better safe than sorry.
Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Naive
252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe
-Close Combat
-Overheat
-Stone Edge/Thunderpunch
-U-Turn/Shadow Claw/Toxic
In the past when people used ScarfApe, they almost always used specially based builds. But why? It's true that Infernape has a stronger special attacking game than physical attacking, but does it not have access to amazing physical moves like Thunderpunch, U-Turn, Stone Edge, and most of all STAB Close Combat? And doesn't he have incredible speed when scarfed to make his large attack seem even more significant? How could people have ignored this for so long?
This Ape hits things and he hits them hard. He's a fantastic revenge killer. Most of these moves are self-explanatory. Close Combat is a STAB, Overheat is also a STAB and it does more than Fire Blast on this set. Stone Edge is recommended over Thunderpunch because of Salamence's presence in the meta. With just Thunderpunch you can't deal with Mence alone even though it gives you an easier time against water types. However, Thunderpunch only deals 25% to Crocune, 33% to Vaporeon, and even though it kills Gyara after a Dragon Dance, so does Stone Edge (and even when it doesn't kill it has a high crit chance which is not the most reliable thing but it works). The fourth move can be scouting, coverage, or filler. I used U-Turn for scouting and to hit psychics that try to come in like Celebi and Starmie (and Azelf if anyone uses it as more than a lead). However, this set does have a problem against bulky Rotom-As, so Shadow Claw could be an option here. However, I've found that the best way to deal with Rotom is to poison it since it will also tell you if it's running Rest or not, so Toxic is also viable here. Naive is used over Hasty to reduce the damage taken from CB Scizor. It's only a 4% difference in damage, but better safe than sorry.
Double posting is generally bad, but I don't care.
Zapdos @ Leftovers
248 HP/Whatever defenses/36 Spe
Something defensive / Pressure
Substitute
Roost
Thunderbolt
Metal Sound/Toxic
With toxic spikes support this set could be a monster that isn't stupidly weak to a few threats like TormentTran because he will be able to smack most defensive stat-up users with Metal Sound then stab thunderbolt. Flygon and Gliscor are the only two pokemon who can safely come in on this set, but those pokemon won't generally be able to do much to Zapdos either way, and so they can be pressure-stalled. EVs have not been determined because idk what approach would work best with this guy.
Zapdos @ Leftovers
248 HP/Whatever defenses/36 Spe
Something defensive / Pressure
Substitute
Roost
Thunderbolt
Metal Sound/Toxic
With toxic spikes support this set could be a monster that isn't stupidly weak to a few threats like TormentTran because he will be able to smack most defensive stat-up users with Metal Sound then stab thunderbolt. Flygon and Gliscor are the only two pokemon who can safely come in on this set, but those pokemon won't generally be able to do much to Zapdos either way, and so they can be pressure-stalled. EVs have not been determined because idk what approach would work best with this guy.
ss118
Smash Master
you realize that is one of the most feared, common, overuse Zapdos sets right?
Except for metal sound. Interesting idea, but I would go with Toxic because then you only lose to Steelix compared to EVERY ground.
Also make it faster to toxic Gliscor before it Taunts. I also run 252 HP because I like the extra HP that goes into my sub but that's just me.
Except for metal sound. Interesting idea, but I would go with Toxic because then you only lose to Steelix compared to EVERY ground.
Also make it faster to toxic Gliscor before it Taunts. I also run 252 HP because I like the extra HP that goes into my sub but that's just me.
ss118
Smash Master
Maybe something like:
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Pressure: Timid
4 HP, 252 Speed, 252 Sp. Attack
Thunderbolt
Heat Wave
Substitute
Metal Sound
I think Jolteon is more suited for this type of thing, personally, but that's just me.
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Pressure: Timid
4 HP, 252 Speed, 252 Sp. Attack
Thunderbolt
Heat Wave
Substitute
Metal Sound
I think Jolteon is more suited for this type of thing, personally, but that's just me.
Player-4
See you in 25 years
What about the extra SR dmg he takes because of the 252 EVs instead of 248?
I had someone try this before against me, annoyed my Bliss but it wasn't hard to beat.
Jolteon doesn't get Metal Sound, but Heatran would be a cool idea for a Metal Sound set.
ss118
Smash Master
The extra SR damage is meh, but I mean usually you have some time to Roost randomly. You also get an extra HP whenever you roost, as well, so basically you have to see if you roost more than you switch into SR.
Jolteon has speed and power. It also has Fake Tears, and I personally consider 100% accuracy better than MS's 70%.
Against a Blissey user you'd have to predict like hell to beat it with Metal Sound: then there's factoring in the accuracy and switching and ****. I prefer the permanent effect of Toxic on Blissey as you continuously Sub/ Roost.
Jolteon has speed and power. It also has Fake Tears, and I personally consider 100% accuracy better than MS's 70%.
Against a Blissey user you'd have to predict like hell to beat it with Metal Sound: then there's factoring in the accuracy and switching and ****. I prefer the permanent effect of Toxic on Blissey as you continuously Sub/ Roost.
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Ahh forgot about Fake Tears.
I really don't think you need bulk to pull this off. I think Jolt's speed is it's greatest asset to get subs up. I think a Vappy would be pretty good at it though if you wanted the bulk.
Fake Tears
Sub
Wish
Surf/tbolt (vap/jolt)
That would probably work the best.
I really don't think you need bulk to pull this off. I think Jolt's speed is it's greatest asset to get subs up. I think a Vappy would be pretty good at it though if you wanted the bulk.
Fake Tears
Sub
Wish
Surf/tbolt (vap/jolt)
That would probably work the best.
I guess, yeah.
Also I like this anti-lead idea.
Charizard @ Life Orb
192 Atk/176 Spe/140 SpAtk
Rash / Blaze
Sunny Day
Fire Blast
Solar Beam
Focus Punch
Set up sun and depending on their lead use certain attacks. If they're weak to fire, use Focus punch on their switch, it has a small chance at 1hko'ing heatran, will cripple Blissey on the switch, and will maul ttar. If they're not weak to fire, use Fire Blast, since it will KO through OccaGross and anything weaker. If it's Swampert and it doesn't switch out of you as you set up Sunny Day or they bring in a bulky water after you set up the sun (lol), use Solar Beam. It'll lose to speedier leads like Azelf but will walk all over stuff like Heatran, who you can just Focus Punch as they set up rocks. Hits 280 Speed, but could use max attack...I suppose
Also I like this anti-lead idea.
Charizard @ Life Orb
192 Atk/176 Spe/140 SpAtk
Rash / Blaze
Sunny Day
Fire Blast
Solar Beam
Focus Punch
Set up sun and depending on their lead use certain attacks. If they're weak to fire, use Focus punch on their switch, it has a small chance at 1hko'ing heatran, will cripple Blissey on the switch, and will maul ttar. If they're not weak to fire, use Fire Blast, since it will KO through OccaGross and anything weaker. If it's Swampert and it doesn't switch out of you as you set up Sunny Day or they bring in a bulky water after you set up the sun (lol), use Solar Beam. It'll lose to speedier leads like Azelf but will walk all over stuff like Heatran, who you can just Focus Punch as they set up rocks. Hits 280 Speed, but could use max attack...I suppose
![Terywj [태리]](/data/avatars/l/71/71007.jpg?1555906021){kind=avatar}
Terywj [태리]
Charismatic Maknae~
It's probably the only position without perfect Rapid Spin support.
You set up sun first which halves water-type damage, so no.
280 outpaces Heatran as well as beating out Lucario and threats around that speed range. A bit higher could beat 252Spe base 80s, so that might work better, but Charizard needs as much attack for focus punch as possible imo just so you can hit dumb things effectively.
280 outpaces Heatran as well as beating out Lucario and threats around that speed range. A bit higher could beat 252Spe base 80s, so that might work better, but Charizard needs as much attack for focus punch as possible imo just so you can hit dumb things effectively.
If a 150 power physical attack in Fighting isn't enough to one-shot Blissey, something's wrong.
supermarth64
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2005
- Messages
- 785
Well 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey is as physically defensive as 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Spiritomb...
Yeah, but Blissey, unlike Spiritomb, is weak to Fighting.
Terywj [태리]
Charismatic Maknae~
Keep in mind Spiritomb relies on Pain Split for recovery and can't shrug off status. Also, the few resistances it has limits the easiness of it to switch in.