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"Rate My Moveset!" :: Moveset Critique Thread

mood4food77

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it's too slow and doesn't have good enough SpD to take hits

heatran OHKO's it with Overheat (which seems to be pretty common now cause of the machamp leads ****** everything, i've run into about 5 of them on shoddy)

seed bomb over ice shard, the only leads ice shard would be used for are dragonite and gliscor and those aren't that common
 

NJzFinest

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Ice Shard isn't for coverage, it's for priority against Focus Sash Leads. The fact Gliscor is defensively bulky makes Ice Shard out of the question. Nevertheless, ty for bringing up Gliscor, that's another pokemon it kinda just stares at. It can Rapid Spin the SR and wait for it to Uturn I guess.

Donphan only needs the extra SpD specifically for Heatran's Overheat, despite the fact the moveset recommending Fire Blast instead. I personally find more using Fire Blast actually.
 

Wave⁂

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Donphan gets Head Smash?

OH MY GOD WHY DID NO ONE INFORM ME OF THIS.

What nature? How does this do against Infernape?
 

NJzFinest

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Adamant, I'll edit that in.

Infernape... I have no clue how I forgot about that too. Infernape's Fake Out + Fire Blast isn't enough to kill it, so Donphan wins.

And yes, I was very excited myself when I found out Donphan had Head Smash lol
Unfortunately, no one has updated Donphan's analysis since it got that move, so Head Smash isn't mentioned anywhere, just Stone Edge :/
 

mood4food77

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just saying that cause heatran's overheat OHKO's machamp all the time, life orb is unnecessary, so it'll definitely kill donphan

and it's really increasing in popularity to counter these machamps (every leadtran i faced on shoddy now uses it, so annoying)

donphan having head smash is pretty sexy though
 

NJzFinest

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With the rise of Machamps, I think more people have being going with Colbur Berry Azelfs to counter them.
In fact, I'd go as far to say it's more common to find those then actual Machamps haha.

Urgh, why does Donphan have to be slower then Machamp.... -_-
 

Terywj [태리]

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His point is Donphan's low Sp. Def. is what's hindering it from being a great lead. The fact that Overheat Heatran are so popular with the rise of Machamp leads, and that Overheat without Life Orb OHKO's Machamp who is bulkier than Donphan means Donphan is always going to be outpaced and OHKO'd with Overheat.
 

NJzFinest

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Wait a minute.... shouldn't I just use Focus Sash instead? lol

This way I can put a dent in Nite and Celebi too.
 

mood4food77

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not really, donphan is really too slow to use it well and you get ***** by roserade

i'd say go with this

Donphan @ Lum Berry
Adamant / Sturdy
252 HP / 200 Atk / 48 Spe / 10 Def
Seed Bomb
Earthquake
Head Smash
Ice Shard / Rapid Spin

The 48 Speed EVs are so you outrun any main Swampert set and 2HKO with Seed Bomb 100% of the time. 200 Atk EVs are there so you ALWAYS 2HKO lead Machamp with Earthquake while also outrunning him. You also always 2HKO Roserade with Earthquake to Ice Shard (but this is also assuming the off chance they decide not to Leaf Storm you). Also, Overheat from Heatran is not a gaurenteed OHKO (neither is you Earthquake against Shuccatran) but you have the chance to finish him off with Ice Shard, it's about even.
 

Wave⁂

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Don't bother with Lum Berry. Just Ice Shard, take the sleep, and switch to Flygon / priority user. Focus Sash is better.
 

NJzFinest

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What are the Defs EVs for? Machamp/Metagross? I'll run some calcs and see what I get.

Also, I don't see how Donphan's speed is relevant as long as it succeeds to kill the opposing pokemon with the use of Focus Sash lol. This is what Ice Shard is for.

As far as getting ***** by Roserade.. there's not much you can do no matter what you run.

The main problem with that set is that almost anything with a strong special attack wins :(
 

mood4food77

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i was changing it around a bit, sorry

i put enough Speed EVs there to always outspeed Machamp leads, then threw the rest into Defense as you're really not going to outspeed anything other than Machamp, might as well make him bulky.

but putting them into SpD makes Heatrans running Overheat have a lesser chance of OHKOing you so it might be worthwhile

Heatran does 89.1% - 104.9% when you have 252 HP / 10 SpD
He does 90.1% to 106.3% without the SpD EVs

it's not much but it helps

actually, lum berry is so you are guaranteed the win against machamp leads, you outrun and ALWAYS 2HKO with earthquake
 

mood4food77

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i'd just go with lum

you guarantee the win against machamp leads and still have a about the same chance of beating a roserade lead as you would with focus sash (which loses your guaranteed win against machamp)

well, you aren't guaranteed a 2HKO on azelf with Head Smash to Ice Shard

you do 75% - 88.4% with head smash and 20% - 24.1% with Ice Shard, maybe switch the Atk and HP EVs so you basically are guaranteed

also, Explosion does 96.6% to 113.8.%, which actually could benefit from using Focus Sash as most Azelf leads would probably taunt you first since you are using a poke that can set up rocks
 

Gates

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Donphan is too frail on its special side to use those extra EV anyway.
Yeah, if you only put in 10 SpD EVs it's not going to change ****, but before you posted this I thought the spread was something like 252 HP/56 Atk/24 Spe/170 Def or something.

i was changing it around a bit, sorry
[...]252 HP / 10 SpD
I thought earlier you had like 170 Def EVs wtf stop changing it goddammit.

Even running 68 SpD helps. Adamant 252 HP/68 Def is the standard Smogon spread for OU Rapid Spin Donphan and if you change those Def EVs to SpD his special bulk increases a lot. I recommend Adamant 252 HP/140 Atk/68 SpD/48 Spe. The reduction in attack may seem comcerning but here are some statistics:

Azelf and Aerodactyl are still 2HKO'd by Head Smash and Ice Shard.
Machamp is still outsped and 2HKO'd by Earthquake.
You lose some damage against Metagross but he still can't 2HKO you with Meteor Mash and you can still barely 2HKO him with Earthquake.
Swampert doesn't have a guaranteed 2HKO against you with Ice Beam and you still outspeed and can 2HKO with Seed Bomb.
Jirachi either Tricks you, U-Turns, or Stealth Rocks and switches immediately, so who cares. For the record though, you still have a chance to OHKO with Earthquake. It's not guaranteed, but it's also not guaranteed with 200 Atk EVs.
Infernape's Fire Blast does 70% max to you, Overheat does 82% max, Grass Knot does 78% max, and Close Combat does 37% max. Even with 8% max damage from Fake Out, you'll still 2HKO with Earthquake and Ice Shard.
Roserade still ***** you, although you have a slightly higher chance to survive an Energy Ball.
Heatran's Fire Blast does 82% max to you and Overheat does slightly more than that. You have about a 50% chance of OHKOing through Shuca with Earthquake and if you don't you have a 33% chance of getting the 2HKO with Ice Shard. It's still very difficult but it's improved a lot I think.
How the **** is Ninjask the #10 lead on the ladder?
Hippowdon is where the lack of Atk EVs hurt, though that ******* is so ****ing fat that it's not like you're missing out on an OHKO anyway. Uxie is like Hippowdon in that nothing you can do to it can really hurt it that much since it's so stupidly bulky. Bronzong and Forry are in the same boat.
Tyranitar isn't 2HKO'd by Earthquake and Ice Shard anymore, but he's not that big of a threat anyway.
Starmie still ***** you. I don't think anything will change that.
Max SpA Dragonite can only OHKO with Draco Meteor if it has a +SpA nature, but you can OHKO with Head Smash if you do survive or 2HKO with Ice Shard if you feel like being not so smart. None of Dragonite's other moves OHKO you though, not even Adamant Max Atk Outrage.
Earthquake and Ice Shard will always 2HKO Smeargle.
Crobat dies to Head Smash. It also takes 35% max from Ice Shard if you want to hurt the Crobat instead of the pokemon it U-Turns into.
Gliscor is not 2HKO'd by Ice Shard or Head Smash but it never was.
Abomasnow still 2HKO's you with just about anything but you can OHKO with Head Smash.
Empoleon is OHKO'd by Earthquake if they don't kill you with Hydro Pump.
Nothing else is really that threatening.

So to sum up, this is my recommended spread:

Donphan @ Lum Berry
Adamant / Sturdy
252 HP / 140 Atk / 48 Spe / 68 SpD
Seed Bomb
Earthquake
Head Smash
Ice Shard

It sacrifices an amount of power that is ultimately trivial for more special bulk against neutral attacks.

Another solution since Heatran Overheat is the biggest concern here is to run a Heatran of your own. This would take hits from Heatran/Infernape Overheat and also take very little damage from other special attacks it's vulnerable to like Swampert Ice Beam, or Roserade Energy Ball/Leaf Storm (assuming they don't just sleep you).
 

mood4food77

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azelf is not a guaranteed 2HKO with Head Smash and Ice Shard even with my spread, with yours it's an even lower chance

19.2% - 22.9% with ice shard
71.6% - 84.2% with head smash

you have a chance but it's not a very good one
 

Circa

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Donphan stuff
It's really too bad that we aren't talking about this guy in B/W in the assumption that the lead metagame is the same (which it very likely will not be, sadly). Sturdy would make him kinda more ******** than that already makes him out to be.
 

mood4food77

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wow i'm an idiot

azelf can't explode on donphan

also, it learns assurance, which definitely will get the 2HKO if azelf used psychic first turn, which can be used over seed bomb

but this also loses your chance to 2HKO swampert

seed bomb is the superior choice but i don't think we can leave out the option of having assurance due to azelf being the most common lead by far
 

Circa

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Wait we're not talking about Donphan in the Black / White aspect? My bad.
I'm pretty sure m4f wasn't. His post didn't seem to have any BW reference to it at all.

But yeah. In BW Donphan could become a really good lead, depending on how things play out.
 

Wave⁂

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Wait, why can't Azelf use Explosion?
Why would it?

Turn one: Azelf uses Taunt (Donphan's a ****ing Stealth Rock lead, what else would you do), Donphan probably hits with Head Smash or Assurance

Turn two: Azelf blows up? No, Azelf uses Stealth Rock, its purpose on the player's team. Donphan uses Rapid Spin.

Turn three: Donphan kills with Ice Shard.
 

Circa

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Why would it?

Turn one: Azelf uses Taunt (Donphan's a ****ing Stealth Rock lead, what else would you do), Donphan probably hits with Head Smash or Assurance

Turn two: Azelf blows up? No, Azelf uses Stealth Rock, its purpose on the player's team. Donphan uses Rapid Spin.

Turn three: Donphan kills with Ice Shard.
Or it would SR -> switch / Explosion instead. If Donphan uses anything but SR, Azelf is pretty much free to switch so it can come in later and Explode on something more important to your team (or use SR again in the event that it was spun away). If Donphan uses SR, then the switch to a spinblocker is risky, and thus Azelf can just Explode instead. What the Explosion does is keep Rapid Spin from working (either by killing Donphan or forcing Rapid Spin to miss) without risking the spinblocker, which I would imagine is much more important than the suicide lead.

tl;dr: SR -> switch / Explosion is most optimal in Azelf's case.
 

Gates

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azelf is not a guaranteed 2HKO with Head Smash and Ice Shard even with my spread, with yours it's an even lower chance

19.2% - 22.9% with ice shard
71.6% - 84.2% with head smash

you have a chance but it's not a very good one
You're totally right, my bad.

also, it learns assurance, which definitely will get the 2HKO if azelf used psychic first turn, which can be used over seed bomb

but this also loses your chance to 2HKO swampert

seed bomb is the superior choice but i don't think we can leave out the option of having assurance due to azelf being the most common lead by far
Actually, I think on your spread Assurance would be superior given the prevalence of Azelf leads. The only way Assurance wouldn't 2HKO Azelf on your spread is if it were running Colbur Berry, and even then Assurance and Head Smash can take care of it. On my spread, however, Assurance has about as much chance of 2HKOing as Head Smash and Ice Shard, so Seed Bomb is probably better for that reason alone.

Wait we're not talking about Donphan in the Black / White aspect? My bad.
Get the **** out of here with that bull****.
 

UltiMario

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This made me realize something.

OK I'm using Donphan as a lead in Gen V he's back in OU it's official now.
 

UltiMario

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Donphan would be a better lead.

And doesn't create SS (if that's detrimental to your team)
 

Terywj [태리]

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We're not comparing Donphan with Hippowdon. They play pretty differently if I'm not mistaken. Besides, Hiippowdon is the definition of OU stall so that is for another discussion anyway.
 
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