Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[MarshieMan]

MarshieMan MrGameguycolor For ledge-hanging or just standing at the ledge? Angled up Fsmashes probably won't even hit them even if X character has a big hurtbox e.g. nose face etc., but if some can then they should be noted. Just standing on-stage at ledge though, that is fine as long as the victim character's exact position matches where they'd be if they're sitting in shield after a ledge-getup for the advantageous angled up or down Fsmash.

I'm also wondering if just the launching hit should be labbed. Including the entire move for multi-hits would probably put them at better rankings in terms of kill potential for obvious reasons so.

I think the multihits should all count. Usually all the hits land in a real match, and im pretty sure the stats are worked out to not give a huge advantage to multihit smashes
Example: Sheik's. Its super weak and also a multihit

 

[TriTails]

Mario's F-smash is definitely A. It's not in the level of MK's or Sonic's but:
- Frame 15. That's not absurd fast, but relative to its power? okay.png
- Sweetspot does 17%, Mario's strongest attack. It is also very strong for its speed, safety, and range. It also can be angled up and down, so it's not limited in terms of frontal coverage.
- FAF of 48. Not the greatest, but still very great. Even if they shield, Mario can stuff them out with frame 2 jab.
- The charging shifts and reduces Mario's hurtbox ala Sonic's.
- Mario's ground speed is just right for pivots, although that may be just me.
- It is Mario's go-to option after a jab lock. Even with half-way charge, this will still kill sub-80-90, and that's a huge deal considering N-air sets up jab lock, and jab will lock even at 999%. To top it off, the hitbox is active for 3 frames. Not particularly bad.

 

[TDK]

's Fsmash is at least B.
- Comes out on Frame 15, one of the faster Fsmashes in the game, and relative to how early it kills that's pretty crazy.
- Each hit is out for 1 frame, so 2 frames. Alright.
- The move does 7% or 14% on the first hit, which isn't great, but both hits combined hit for at least 19%, which is above average.
- Getting both hits kills very early, and you can combo Bomb into Fsmash under certain circumstances.
- The first hit has a "tipper" hitbox that kills really early and can be true combo'd out of with nair: https://twitter.com/ScizorLinked/status/768199335808868352

If it wasn't for the awful ending lag on it this move would be crazy, but as it is it's B tier.

 

[VeryUncreative]

Just in case anyone hasn't noticed yet, the tab for f-throw on the first page shows the f-tilt tier list.

 

[Rizen]

's Fsmash is at least B.
- Comes out on Frame 15, one of the faster Fsmashes in the game, and relative to how early it kills that's pretty crazy.
- Each hit is out for 1 frame, so 2 frames. Alright.
- The move does 7% or 14% on the first hit, which isn't great, but both hits combined hit for at least 19%, which is above average.
- Getting both hits kills very early, and you can combo Bomb into Fsmash under certain circumstances.
- The first hit has a "tipper" hitbox that kills really early and can be true combo'd out of with nair: https://twitter.com/ScizorLinked/status/768199335808868352

If it wasn't for the awful ending lag on it this move would be crazy, but as it is it's B tier.

Each hit lasts 2 frames, js.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link
Being able to delay or stop the 2nd hit gives Link some mix up potential to dodge or spin attack if the opponent rolls behind Link but Fsmash is very unsafe regardless. What annoys me is floaty characters pop out and the second hit misses at high %s but that's what Ftilt is for.

 

[Nemesis561]

Bowser jr's Fsmash should be solid A-tier. It has great kill power, good at catching recoveries at the ledge, almost completely safe on shield, very little end lag, and side B combos into f-smash at lower percents. Honestly its similar to Meta-knight's but obviously not quite as good because of the downsides of the multi hit properties, and not quite as safe.

 

[Funbot28]

K gonna get up the preliminary list by hopefully tommorow morning my time, so get out ur final thought before then!

 

[DunnoBro]

Mario's is more like a high B. It's safeish, strongish, disjointedish, but not really great at anything. Most average speed+ or greater characters can punish it on whiff/shield which is the main issue keeping it from A-tier.

Jab locks are the best thing going or it but nearly any fsmash is great in those situations.

Villager's fsmash is definitely S. It's the most potent thing about villager by far. It's safe on whiff, shield, and has absurd reward.

Pika's is S tier, contender for best in the game. Mac's is all kind of stupid but pika's is actually safer in neutral, covers landings and ledge better, and overall covers the most options the safest of any fsmash with decent enough reward.

Duck hunt's fsmash is the worst. Random angles, awful FAF, deadzones (That get bigger with charge) and of course people fall out it.

It can hit on the ledge and has decent strength, but is actually reactable if charged for even a single frame or hitting with anything but the first hit. So it HAS to be used for a hard read.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Personally, I believe Doc's F-smash should go in A-tier along side Mario's.

It's fast, powerful, has a small disjointed at the end, amazing punish tool since Doc leans his hurtbox back & it can be angled which slightly increases it's damage & versatility. (Not to mention it's Doc's best move at breaking shields)

 

[MarshieMan]

Guys its really not that big of a deal if your hurtbox changes while using Fsmash. If something will hit you, 99/100 times you wont avoid it with a shifted hurtbox. Speaking from experience.

 

[DunnoBro]

Guys its really not that big of a deal if your hurtbox changes while using Fsmash. If something will hit you, 99/100 times you wont avoid it with a shifted hurtbox. Speaking from experience.

Totally wrong.

The hurtbox shifting from fsmashes mostly effects jabs, grabs, and low range aerials. Mostly out of tumble or reactions, empty landings, or other mix-up situations.

Ex.

Mario would get hit by nairs after dthrow at certain percents, fsmash's hurtbox contortion allows him to avoid or at least trade with them.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Guys its really not that big of a deal if your hurtbox changes while using Fsmash. If something will hit you, 99/100 times you wont avoid it with a shifted hurtbox. Speaking from experience.

Gonna have to disagree with you there. One of the main reasons Captain Falcon's fsmash is so good is because of the pullback while charging it.

 

[kendikong]

Zard's Fsmash is bad, I avoid using it unless im absolutely sure it will land.

 

[LRodC]

I think mega man's is worthy of low C or D. It's telegraphed, weak, and very laggy. It is also reflect bait which can shut it down hard vs characters that have them. However, I believe it's transcendent and it has excellent range at a full charge. It can also lead to shield breaks if combined with crash bomber. Thoughts?

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's f-smash is pretty much a weaker version of Bowser f-smash. Tho it at least does have a fast charge release at 7 and it does give him full body invinsibility. For comparison Bowser's charge release takes 16 frames and only gives him leg invinsibility.

I wouldn't say Zard's is bad, but it is clearly one of the lesser f-smashes. The combination of full body invinsibility, fast charge release and the rather extreme hurtbox shift is what saves this f-smash of being awful.

 

[LRodC]

Zard's f-smash is pretty much a weaker version of Bowser f-smash. Tho it at least does have a fast charge release at 7 and it does give him full body invinsibility. For comparison Bowser's charge release takes 16 frames and only gives him leg invinsibility.

I wouldn't say Zard's is bad, but it is clearly one of the lesser f-smashes. The combination of full body invinsibility, fast charge release and the rather extreme hurtbox shift is what saves this f-smash of being awful.

Is Zard's side smash his strongest knockback attack? That gives it a niche as a strong shield break punish.

 

[arbustopachon]

Yes it is. It's also useful for u-smash lock kills.

 

[Geese]

Is there a reupload of the up-special tier list anywhere? It isn't working on the first post.

 

[ARGHETH]

Is there a reupload of the up-special tier list anywhere? It isn't working on the first post.

On page 10.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok update time, preliminary list for Forward-Smash:

Spoiler: F-Smash

Leave your thoughts as always!

 

[TDK]

What on earth is Tink's Fsmash doing in D?

 

[Flamegeyser]

Fox, Wario, and Lucas are not NEARLY that good, and neither is Ness, debatably. They should all be B or lower. Meanwhile, Villy definitely deserves S. Although it's horizontal range is technically poor, it's basically safe on shield or whiff, can edgeguard almost stupidly well, and is the 6th strongest fsmash in the game despite being nigh unpunishable.

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk's fsmash is D tier for sure.

What on Earth is Samus' doing so high as well? It's an awful move.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'd maybe bump Charizard up one.

 

[DunnoBro]

Nah Fox's is irrefutably A-tier simply due to the ability to cross up, but mostly cover ledges.

It covers EVERY option but roll vs many chars and very favorably.

 

[Kofu]

Shulk's fsmash is D tier for sure.

What on Earth is Samus' doing so high as well? It's an awful move.

Samus has one of the fastest FSmashes in the game at frame 10 and has reasonable range. Pretty mediocre if you don't get the sweetspot though.

Fox, Wario, and Lucas are not NEARLY that good, and neither is Ness, debatably. They should all be B or lower. Meanwhile, Villy definitely deserves S. Although it's horizontal range is technically poor, it's basically safe on shield or whiff, can edgeguard almost stupidly well, and is the 6th strongest fsmash in the game despite being nigh unpunishable.

Villager's FSmash is fine in A, mainly because it comes with the baggage of being a projectile. I could see it in S but I'm not complaining about it in A.

I agree that Wario's is too high.

The Pits' FSmashes could go up thanks to their range IMO. I personally like ROB's FSmash for how it condenses his hurtbox and for its range though others might disagree. Yoshi's is similar. WFT might deserve a tier up just because it can beat rolls behind her, something that most other FSmashes can't claim.

 

[MarshieMan]

I would move cloud down and Olimar/Bowser Jr. Up.
Reasons being that although Cloud's has decent kill power, its very telegraphed and has horrible downtime. Its his worst smash attack.

Olimar should be A tier because of his desync smash attacks that let him punish/trade with almost anything. It also has very low downtime. Bowser Jr.'s has really high kill power, as well as very low downtime and a long lasting hitbox.

Also i see that everyone disagrees with me about the worth of shifted hurtboxes, so I'll digress. I was wrong.

 

[Rizen]

Villager's FSmash is fine in A, mainly because it comes with the baggage of being a projectile. I could see it in S but I'm not complaining about it in A.

If it gets reflected what happens, does it hit villager?

 

[LRodC]

If it gets reflected what happens, does it hit villager?

Yes.

Also, is there any reason why Ganondorf is two tiers lower than Captain Falcon despite Ganon's being mostly superior aside from two more frames of start up? They also have the same end lag. I'm not sure of any range differences, but if there is one, it's certainly not worth Ganondorf being two tiers below Falcon's.

 

[adom4]

Yes.

Also, is there any reason why Ganondorf is two tiers lower than Captain Falcon despite Ganon's being mostly superior aside from two more frames of start up? They also have the same end lag. I'm not sure of any range differences, but if there is one, it's certainly not worth Ganondorf being two tiers below Falcon's.

Falcon's F-smash has slightly more range while Ganon's F-smash has more active frames (6 compared to Falcon's 4), is stronger & is safer on shield due to more shieldstun (still barely unsafe though), it's not worse than Falcon's F-smash and definitely not 2 tiers below it.

 

[Kofu]

If it gets reflected what happens, does it hit villager?

If there's a big enough gap Villager can Pocket it (or walk away from it) but in general, yes. It happened to me the day Mewtwo was released when I tried to drop it on him while he used Confusion (it was pretty funny, actually). I've also had it reflected back into my face from Ness's bat point blank so I took the bat damage too (bad option selection in general, heh). Go into training mode on Battlefield, make the opponent wear a Franklin Badge, position them on the ground between the platforms and you can experiment with it.

It can also be clanked by moves with high enough power (I've had a recovering Fire Fox blaze through it unharmed, for example). On the other hand, if a move lacks a hitbox or doesn't do enough damage, it will still connect. Peach's parasol won't save her from being on the wrong end of a strike.

 

[adom4]

Also what the **** is Olimar doing in B lol, his F-smash is stupid good, it makes up like 40% of his neutral, it should be A tier at worst & imo it should be S tier.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Bayonetta should honestly be D tier just because (unless I'm misunderstanding) it gets cancelled out by literally any hitbox, and it continues the animation even after being cancelled out. This also applies to Olimar's smash attacks, but Olimar has godlike frame data to compensate. Bayonetta's smash attacks not only get cancelled out easily, but also have terrible frame data.

Speaking of Olimar, move him to A tier. That frame data is so ****ing good, it should not be lower than A. Also, with a purple Pikmin it's apparently one of the strongest fsmashes in the game.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I really have no idea how to rate Fsmashes. Speed on startup, safety on block, damage/knockback, utilities. For most characters, it's not a very important attack, just a high risk high reward option. Looking at the roster, I'd swear only Little Mac, Lucina, and Marth have Fsmashes integral to their gameplay. Sure there's a handful of characters with legitimate means of breaking shields or jab lock setups that result in a guaranteed Fsmash, but most of these characters would maintain their same place in the game competitively if you removed their Fsmash from their moveset - they'd use their next strongest attack. These moves aren't especially good or bad, so you can make a case for any of them except I guess Ike.

Metaknight should move down though. Safety on shield is huge, but that's all it has going for it, and is not unique among forward smashes. 24 frame startup for a move that doesn't even match the kill power and damage of other smashes with 19-22 startup. Plus it's extremely short range and has a sourspot. Metaknight's Fsmash is actually precisely as safe on block as Ganondorf's Usmash, I notice. Ganon's would actually push them further, but my point being that if this quality were really so game changing, wouldn't you have heard about Ganon's Usmash being super great?

Yes.

Also, is there any reason why Ganondorf is two tiers lower than Captain Falcon despite Ganon's being mostly superior aside from two more frames of start up? They also have the same end lag. I'm not sure of any range differences, but if there is one, it's certainly not worth Ganondorf being two tiers below Falcon's.

Agreed, but I think it's Falcon who needs to move down while Ganon meets him in B. They're the same move, but Falcon's got the edge in range/disjoint while Ganon's will kill far sooner and two less endlag. Ganon has a sourspot on his elbow that almost evens the knockback between the two. Falcon's ability to angle downward actually drops the move's kill power in favor of a lower launch angle relevant only to the few matchups that have trouble recovering from low points - Doc, Ganon, Mac.

Another two that need to meet are Link and Toon Link. The differences are well balanced. Link's second hit has almost 20 more endlag than Tink, making it a seriously risky decision should you miss or get blocked. However, it does enjoy considerably earlier kills and better range. The tipper hit on Link's first swing is not better at killing than the second swing, and is precisely as difficult to land as Marth's Fsmash tipper, so nobody cares about purposely landing it. Neither smash is especially great. Link in particular has low utility since his Ftilt has equal startup and will end stocks while being a relatively safe move. Tink is in greater need of kill moves, but like all his melee attacks is too short range and weak to justify using without a bomb or boomerang first.

I also think Cloud, Mario, and possibly Doc should move down. Cloud's is far too slow in startup and endlag to justify using. Limit Cross Slash is basically a safer Fsmash you can perform in the air and beats spot dodges. Mario's move is short range and not exceptionally good with kill power, startup, endlag, anything. Plus is all around weaker than Doc, and Doc's move has the sweetspot occupying more than half of the move's range, unlike Mario. The reason against Doc moving down is that there's no drawbacks to his version that I can see, unlike other copy cat cases like Falcon/Ganon, Link/Tink, Doc's is a straight upgrade, so I'd consider having him above Mario.

Charizard and Bowser should both move up 1 from where they are due to great kill power and the frames of invulnerability on each. Bowser in particular has equivocal knockback to Marth's tipper, but no sourspot. The frame data says a 20% sourspot exists but I've never gotten it. Only the weaker 17% late hit when out of range. Samus could also stand to drop. It's fast to come out but punishable and posseses less range than all three of her tilts. And even the tipper Fsmash is on the lower end of Fsmash kill %s. Almost precisely on par with her tipper Bair which is far safer to throw out.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I came here to see how overrated and 's Forward Smashes were... boy I came in at the right time.

I am iffy as to if Marth's Forward Smash is in A tier or not... could be B tier, but for now, I'll say A - IT DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE ANY HIGHER AT ALL.

Lucina's on the other hand, is being blindly overrated.

In the long and short, Forward Smash is one of the moves Marth and Lucina both use the least, because it is just too punishable. While Marth's has the advantage of being safe on shield at tipper range due to hitlag modifiers, Lucina's doesn't even have that benefit, and can be punished no matter where it hits. What's more, Lucina doesn't have the early KO chance that Marth's has. Sure, it can KO a lot more reliably at higher percents, but when both you and your opponent are at higher percents, you shouldn't be using this move as either character anyway because the risk of punishment is too high. Essentially, at lower percents, the risk-reward ratio is still better for Marth, because the risk if you miss is low, and the reward is very high because you can KO at 40%, where as Lucina cannot do this. At higher percents, neither character will be using this move because it is too unsafe, because the risk factor becomes too prevailant.

All that aside, you still have to think of the fact that stray moves do land, so for that fact, I think Lucina's should still be on par with Marth's, but it is certainly not as good as it's being made out to be.

and should be no higher than A tier.

Next, I am going to talk about /. Why on earth are they still in C tier? They have the tied fastest Fsmash in the game (Along with ,and , they are all frame 10), but Pit's has the noticeable advantage of being a multihit move, which helps in a lot of situations (bye bye Ryu), as well as technically having the least cooldown, due to the fact that hit 2 hits later. It's also not short on KO power either, and still has the boons of being disjointed and having pretty solid reach.

/ should be B tier at the least, though A tier is a possibility.

Finally, I vote that 's Fsmash goes up to A tier. IIRC, this has the lowest cooldown of ALL Fsmashes in the game (perhaps bar ). What's more, it has incredible launching power, can be angled, and is pretty fast overall. It's only downside is it's pretty low range, but considering all the other fantastic traits, I don't see why say, 's Fsmash is in A tier, but not Luigi's.

So, 's should be in A tier.

 

[Rizen]

Metaknight should move down though. Safety on shield is huge, but that's all it has going for it, and is not unique among forward smashes. 24 frame startup for a move that doesn't even match the kill power and damage of other smashes with 19-22 startup. Plus it's extremely short range and has a sourspot. Metaknight's Fsmash is actually precisely as safe on block as Ganondorf's Usmash, I notice. Ganon's would actually push them further, but my point being that if this quality were really so game changing, wouldn't you have heard about Ganon's Usmash being super great?


Link in particular has low utility since his Ftilt has equal startup and will end stocks while being a relatively safe move. Tink is in greater need of kill moves, but like all his melee attacks is too short range and weak to justify using without a bomb or boomerang first.

Ganon's Usmash is a great move, the problem is it's on an nonviable character who's fastest ground attack is frame 7. MK has very fast attacks and should only throw out Fsmash when it won't be interrupted. All Ganon's attacks are slow and his Utilt is complete trash so he has to make due. Give almost any other character Ganon's Usmash and it will look absurdly broken.

Link's Ftilt and Fsmash have slightly different utilities. Ftilt starts on frame 15 attacking above Link's head but doesn't hit in front of him until frame 18 or 19. It hits below the ledge at the end and is generally safe when spaced well.
Fsmash has better horizontal reach but poor vertical. Stepping forward extends Link's hitbox but also makes Fsmash able to attack farther ahead than other ground moves. The 2nd cut extends even farther forward. And like you said it's stronger but much riskier.

 

[Nemesis561]

Bowser jrs should be in A tier... its usable in neutral, at the ledge and isvery powerful and safe, pretty much everything u want in an F smash, also Wario's is essentially unusable move it down

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I came here to see how overrated and 's Forward Smashes were... boy I came in at the right time.

I am iffy as to if Marth's Forward Smash is in A tier or not... could be B tier, but for now, I'll say A - IT DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE ANY HIGHER AT ALL.

Lucina's on the other hand, is being blindly overrated.

In the long and short, Forward Smash is one of the moves Marth and Lucina both use the least, because it is just too punishable. While Marth's has the advantage of being safe on shield at tipper range due to hitlag modifiers, Lucina's doesn't even have that benefit, and can be punished no matter where it hits. What's more, Lucina doesn't have the early KO chance that Marth's has. Sure, it can KO a lot more reliably at higher percents, but when both you and your opponent are at higher percents, you shouldn't be using this move as either character anyway because the risk of punishment is too high. Essentially, at lower percents, the risk-reward ratio is still better for Marth, because the risk if you miss is low, and the reward is very high because you can KO at 40%, where as Lucina cannot do this. At higher percents, neither character will be using this move because it is too unsafe, because the risk factor becomes too prevailant.

All that aside, you still have to think of the fact that stray moves do land, so for that fact, I think Lucina's should still be on par with Marth's, but it is certainly not as good as it's being made out to be.

and should be no higher than A tier.

Next, I am going to talk about /. Why on earth are they still in C tier? They have the tied fastest Fsmash in the game (Along with ,and , they are all frame 10), but Pit's has the noticeable advantage of being a multihit move, which helps in a lot of situations (bye bye Ryu), as well as technically having the least cooldown, due to the fact that hit 2 hits later. It's also not short on KO power either, and still has the boons of being disjointed and having pretty solid reach.

/ should be B tier at the least, though A tier is a possibility.

Finally, I vote that 's Fsmash goes up to A tier. IIRC, this has the lowest cooldown of ALL Fsmashes in the game (perhaps bar ). What's more, it has incredible launching power, can be angled, and is pretty fast overall. It's only downside is it's pretty low range, but considering all the other fantastic traits, I don't see why say, 's Fsmash is in A tier, but not Luigi's.

So, 's should be in A tier.

I broke down Lucina's Fsmash in a comparison to Sonic's a number of posts back: Lucina is winning in most of the numbers.

You're underrating the Fsmash. If it ain't S, neither is Sonic's.

 

[Geese]

Bowser jrs should be in A tier... its usable in neutral, at the ledge and isvery powerful and safe, pretty much everything u want in an F smash, also Wario's is essentially unusable move it down

If you use this in neutral you will get punished for it, it has a good amount of active frames, but it is incredibly easy to predict with its large startup lag, noticeable end lag, tiny shield damage, and the hitbox does not hit below the ledge as far as I know. It is by far not an ideal Fsmash, as far as I know the only Fsmash that is Meta Knight's with its almost non-existant endlag and huge range, along with coming out very quickly and dealing a ton of knockback

 

[Kofu]

If you use this in neutral you will get punished for it, it has a good amount of active frames, but it is incredibly easy to predict with its large startup lag, noticeable end lag, tiny shield damage, and the hitbox does not hit below the ledge as far as I know. It is by far not an ideal Fsmash, as far as I know the only Fsmash that is Meta Knight's with its almost non-existant endlag and huge range, along with coming out very quickly and dealing a ton of knockback

24 frames of endlag isn't bad at all and it does hit characters on the ledge if you angle it down. MK's FSmash has average range, is quite slow on startup, and, while strong, is outclassed by numerous other FSmashes in the power department.

Bowser Jr.'s is fine in either A or B.