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R.O.B Counter of the Week: "Falco"- How Does He Work? How Do You Beat Him?
- Thread starter 8Bitman
- Start date
dettadeus
Smash Lord
This was all I could get out of him. :/
He also posted this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mQJrgt60_E
EDIT:
He also posted this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mQJrgt60_E
Not even close. We have one good Falco who I have only played matches with recently. Bad Falcos are easy. A good Falco against ROB is easy 70:30.
I have never taken a game from Fishbait's falco(neither in tournament or in friendlies)
Every situation you get yourself in he wins. He beats every move you have with frame advantage and his pressure and mixups from dthrow to chaingrabs to sh dAir and then STOP. From their every option is bad for ROB. You have no options up close when dealing with Falco's jab game. He outcamps, punishes everything hard as it is all telegraphed and requires commitment and gets you smashed oos, jabbed oos, or grabbed and he beats you in the air.
imo it is 6.5/3.5 or 7/3 against ROB.
dettadeus
Smash Lord
Must've gotten Falco mixed up with Snake then.
I remember you saying one of them was your best matchup.
I remember you saying one of them was your best matchup.
Snake, MK, Peach and Lucario are my strongest MUs. You probably were thinking about Snake. Snake is definitely a strong one for me. It comes from us having had 3 Snake players on our PR at one point in the past. XD
stingers
Smash Obsessed
woahh I didnt even know this thread existed.
tag
Just read tvs writeup for snake. That helped me a lot =D thanks! Snakes one of my worst MUs x.x
tag
Just read tvs writeup for snake. That helped me a lot =D thanks! Snakes one of my worst MUs x.x
sneakytako
Smash Lord
I <3 Bees.
Although I disagree about jab. Jab is the one thing that's awesome about falco that we *should beat. You can SDI the first and second hit of jab to ff fair falco before he gets the third jab in. Baseically we trade two jabs for a fair, and considering what kind of knockback fair has it's amazing.
But yes good falcos just poop on ROB. It's terrible. You call him on this phantasms and hope for the best lol.
<3 Sneakytako
Also what gets me with jabs is jab cancels to shenanigans(jab to grab, jab to tilt. jab to usmash, jab to dair., etc)
dettadeus
Smash Lord
You'll never fully drop R.O.B., Bees. You'll probably need him against my Icies. 
Heck, I'm still going to need him for Olimar, so I guess I'm not completely out of him yet.
Heck, I'm still going to need him for Olimar, so I guess I'm not completely out of him yet.
I personally think ROB can perform the Falco matchup pretty well as long as you keep a very close eye to spacing and maintaining a fresh, unpredictable game. As soon as you can see a window of opportunity, punish them hard; react, punish, go beyond reacting until you lose your streak, and repeat.
dettadeus
Smash Lord
What would we even punish him hard with?
For that matter, what would we be punishing?
For that matter, what would we be punishing?
There's quite some room for creativity, I'm sure. You can attempt to keep a reasonable distance and glide toss approach -> whatever tilt, after some (or no) response conditioning. The gyro, as far as I know, serves as a really good mechanism for brief combos and mobility. Tilts in general.
I mean, his laser camping definitely has some blatant weaknesses (well, yeah, better Falcos probably won't do this so often). The phantasm, too. Ground approaches, in some cases. Poor grab attempts.
All Falcos have a certain style, definitely. It's only a matter of trying to read him as soon as possible. However, where Falco has definite advantage in a greater number of hitting frames, ROB also has some level of advantage in greater range (in terms of the close-mid range game, where most of us would logically tend to fight).
I mean, his laser camping definitely has some blatant weaknesses (well, yeah, better Falcos probably won't do this so often). The phantasm, too. Ground approaches, in some cases. Poor grab attempts.
All Falcos have a certain style, definitely. It's only a matter of trying to read him as soon as possible. However, where Falco has definite advantage in a greater number of hitting frames, ROB also has some level of advantage in greater range (in terms of the close-mid range game, where most of us would logically tend to fight).
I agree but that still doesn't win us the MU. When Falco messes up with Phantasm and we punish, we either get a F-Tilt or a Grab, majority of the time though, it's a F-Tilt. So then after that, you either hit Falco to the edge (Let's say we're on SV) or he is now hanging on the ledge.
We are now in an awkward position, while we all think the same exact thing, every single time, "Oh he is going to wait a little bit to try and throw me off and then recover with a Phatasm." Some how we travel tooo close to the ledge and he gets back. We can never just keep punishing Phantasm. While that is a reliable F-Tilt, that doesn't win us the MU.
The most legit way to have a semi-decent time against Falco is to just be aggressive. We all agree:
~ Falco outcamps R.O.B, no questions asked, unless the Falco is just bad and doesn't know he has a reflector.
~ Falco's up close game is better than ours because of his amazingly fast Jab (which turns into a windmill of F*** that gets us a free Fair) and he can CG us to about 42% and then combo us to about 50% - 60% depending on if he knows to Spike us to the ground.
~ 99% of the time Falco will recover FROM THE LEDGE with a Phantasm if you are close to said Ledge. Be ready to punish him. Unless you have fast reflexes and grab the Phantasm which you only a frame or two do so. Take advantage of knowing how Falco will recover, expect it.
Alright, with that said, being "Aggressive" in this MU is not running away to try and get out a Gyro or trying to get 1 LAZER every 30 Seconds. Because that is too slow and slow will not get you the lead because Falco's Lazers rack up % if you allow them too.
"Aggressive" is being at OUR F-Tilt range 90% of the time you are grounded. That does not mean you F-Tilt him every chance you get, no it is just a safe spacing so that he can't hit you and he is either forced to shield or try to grab. The Falco MU is like a Hurricane, allow me to explain: The most outer Level (The Cloud Shield) or the positioning in which Falco is shooting Lazers and you are trying to get a Gyro out is where Falco get's his % or in the Hurricanes POV it's Range and distance.
The next level is the Eye Wall, which is the most powerful part of a Hurricane, or in this situation the most pressure for R.O.B. Now you finally got a Gyro, you are maybe 3-4 Dashes away from Falco, and he has stopped Lazering consistently, he is now trying to bait you're Glide-Toss and Reflect it, or do single Lazers and B-DACUS. You are left to A.) Shield and await the on-slaught of lazers/B-DACUS. Or B.) Approach but by Glide-Tossing your Gyro up, and either grabbing or any sort of physical attack, Jab, F-Tilt, F-Smash, Fair.. The best thing to do is grab, because it can at least lead to other attacks, Falco is easy to read when landing, he is very limited to Phantasm/Air-Dodge to ground.
The last and final level of the Hurricane is the Eye, this where all of the pressure has now switched to Falco, unless you are just a scared *****, you should just be standing there with a Gyro in hand. This situation is if you never took out a Gyro and instead simply approached through all of the Lazers. If you followed through with the Eye Wall Pressure someone got punished. Either Falco for Reflecting, or you for missing the grab/attack. Now, you should be a F-Tilt away from Falco or 1 Dash. This IMMEDIATELY puts pressure on Falco, you are now right in front of him, but Falco cannot grab/attack you. You out range him, but don't get cocky now, if you get too greedy Falco will punish you. Simply stand there. As soon as you get to this positioning, if you have a Gyro throw it in the air. Never jump or Falco instantly gains the advantage in the situation. Just bait a Roll, Side-Step, or Jump from Falco, be ready to punish. Depending on the Falco player they will do something different, just make sure you know which one your Falco player will do.
Rarely do they Side-Step, they usually jump away toward the edge, or they Roll behind you. Falco has a very long Roll.
This is my Write-up for Falco but even then I have not covered everything. Just pressure basically.
We are now in an awkward position, while we all think the same exact thing, every single time, "Oh he is going to wait a little bit to try and throw me off and then recover with a Phatasm." Some how we travel tooo close to the ledge and he gets back. We can never just keep punishing Phantasm. While that is a reliable F-Tilt, that doesn't win us the MU.
The most legit way to have a semi-decent time against Falco is to just be aggressive. We all agree:
~ Falco outcamps R.O.B, no questions asked, unless the Falco is just bad and doesn't know he has a reflector.
~ Falco's up close game is better than ours because of his amazingly fast Jab (which turns into a windmill of F*** that gets us a free Fair) and he can CG us to about 42% and then combo us to about 50% - 60% depending on if he knows to Spike us to the ground.
~ 99% of the time Falco will recover FROM THE LEDGE with a Phantasm if you are close to said Ledge. Be ready to punish him. Unless you have fast reflexes and grab the Phantasm which you only a frame or two do so. Take advantage of knowing how Falco will recover, expect it.
Alright, with that said, being "Aggressive" in this MU is not running away to try and get out a Gyro or trying to get 1 LAZER every 30 Seconds. Because that is too slow and slow will not get you the lead because Falco's Lazers rack up % if you allow them too.
"Aggressive" is being at OUR F-Tilt range 90% of the time you are grounded. That does not mean you F-Tilt him every chance you get, no it is just a safe spacing so that he can't hit you and he is either forced to shield or try to grab. The Falco MU is like a Hurricane, allow me to explain: The most outer Level (The Cloud Shield) or the positioning in which Falco is shooting Lazers and you are trying to get a Gyro out is where Falco get's his % or in the Hurricanes POV it's Range and distance.
The next level is the Eye Wall, which is the most powerful part of a Hurricane, or in this situation the most pressure for R.O.B. Now you finally got a Gyro, you are maybe 3-4 Dashes away from Falco, and he has stopped Lazering consistently, he is now trying to bait you're Glide-Toss and Reflect it, or do single Lazers and B-DACUS. You are left to A.) Shield and await the on-slaught of lazers/B-DACUS. Or B.) Approach but by Glide-Tossing your Gyro up, and either grabbing or any sort of physical attack, Jab, F-Tilt, F-Smash, Fair.. The best thing to do is grab, because it can at least lead to other attacks, Falco is easy to read when landing, he is very limited to Phantasm/Air-Dodge to ground.
The last and final level of the Hurricane is the Eye, this where all of the pressure has now switched to Falco, unless you are just a scared *****, you should just be standing there with a Gyro in hand. This situation is if you never took out a Gyro and instead simply approached through all of the Lazers. If you followed through with the Eye Wall Pressure someone got punished. Either Falco for Reflecting, or you for missing the grab/attack. Now, you should be a F-Tilt away from Falco or 1 Dash. This IMMEDIATELY puts pressure on Falco, you are now right in front of him, but Falco cannot grab/attack you. You out range him, but don't get cocky now, if you get too greedy Falco will punish you. Simply stand there. As soon as you get to this positioning, if you have a Gyro throw it in the air. Never jump or Falco instantly gains the advantage in the situation. Just bait a Roll, Side-Step, or Jump from Falco, be ready to punish. Depending on the Falco player they will do something different, just make sure you know which one your Falco player will do.
Rarely do they Side-Step, they usually jump away toward the edge, or they Roll behind you. Falco has a very long Roll.
This is my Write-up for Falco but even then I have not covered everything. Just pressure basically.
I would rather play Pikachu against Olimar. ROB gets shatted on by Oli. It is a very lopsided MU. Also ROB doesn't do spectacular against ICs. He has some gimmicks in the MU that mess up with ICs desyncing and make it hard to get grabs safely. But overall it is not a favorable MU.You'll never fully drop R.O.B., Bees. You'll probably need him against my Icies.
Heck, I'm still going to need him for Olimar, so I guess I'm not completely out of him yet.
dettadeus
Smash Lord
I need R.O.B. for Olimar because Logo wrecked my Icies and Sheik at the tourney but I two-stocked him with R.O.B.
Pretty soon I'll have the MU experience with Icies though.
And R.O.B. shouldn't be aggressive at all against Icies. Lasers beat Blizzard and Ice Blocks so R.O.B. can outcamp Icies to a certain extent. Gyro stops ice blocks and causes Blizzard to lag a ton, which can mess up the Blizzard Wall timing.
However, you can't only camp platforms, because Icies have ridiculous U-Air strings.
Also don't let Icies take you anywhere with a moving platform. Just trust me on this one.
Pretty soon I'll have the MU experience with Icies though.
And R.O.B. shouldn't be aggressive at all against Icies. Lasers beat Blizzard and Ice Blocks so R.O.B. can outcamp Icies to a certain extent. Gyro stops ice blocks and causes Blizzard to lag a ton, which can mess up the Blizzard Wall timing.
However, you can't only camp platforms, because Icies have ridiculous U-Air strings.
Also don't let Icies take you anywhere with a moving platform. Just trust me on this one.
dettadeus
Smash Lord
I know he doesn't know the matchup. That's why I'd be using R.O.B.
I know the Oli matchup better as R.O.B. than any of my other characters. I lost game 1 as Icies, won game 2 as Sheik, then he CP'd me to Brinstar and I SD'd with Dair while trying to do ledgehop Fair. >_>
When I played him with R.O.B., I was basically abusing Gyro really hard and GT > D-Smashing into him whenever he missed a grab, lasering his Pikmin toss, F-Tilting him whenever he got near me, etc.
By the next time I play him though I'd be a lot better with Icies which is like +1 or even with Olimar IIRC.
I know the Oli matchup better as R.O.B. than any of my other characters. I lost game 1 as Icies, won game 2 as Sheik, then he CP'd me to Brinstar and I SD'd with Dair while trying to do ledgehop Fair. >_>
When I played him with R.O.B., I was basically abusing Gyro really hard and GT > D-Smashing into him whenever he missed a grab, lasering his Pikmin toss, F-Tilting him whenever he got near me, etc.
By the next time I play him though I'd be a lot better with Icies which is like +1 or even with Olimar IIRC.
For Falco i think the only way to fight him is to play aggro and space F-air B-air on him, because camping purely and simply doesn't work because of reflector, his lasers are a massive problem for us. as a result of how big we are, Falco can hit us with both lasers in his SHDL if we're standing up and even when we try crouching.
Falco pretty much destroys us with two moves, short hop double laser, Phantasm when ROB gets close and just keep camping ROB, chances are we'll be on a massive percent of damage each stock meaning ROB's in very realistic danger of being timed out if he doesn't rush in.
Falco's Jab is a real issue as well being on 1 1/2 frames it's actually faster than any ground move ROB has regardless of the fact ROB has a decent ground game.
ROB needs to try as hard as he possibly can to get falco off stage as many times as he can and just pray Gyro or Laser kills him as he's trying to get back.
I'd say the only thing we really have going for us is the ability to gimp Falco and the fact if he chain grabs us it's not for that long. ROB's killing issue is a massive problem as well as because B-air only hits on something like frame 10 and all rob's most effective KO moves are in the air Falco can beat them out with lasers and in some cases up smash us for the kill if they land.
Horrible Horrible matchup in my opinion
-2 or -3 more -2 because of ROB's gimp game
Falco pretty much destroys us with two moves, short hop double laser, Phantasm when ROB gets close and just keep camping ROB, chances are we'll be on a massive percent of damage each stock meaning ROB's in very realistic danger of being timed out if he doesn't rush in.
Falco's Jab is a real issue as well being on 1 1/2 frames it's actually faster than any ground move ROB has regardless of the fact ROB has a decent ground game.
ROB needs to try as hard as he possibly can to get falco off stage as many times as he can and just pray Gyro or Laser kills him as he's trying to get back.
I'd say the only thing we really have going for us is the ability to gimp Falco and the fact if he chain grabs us it's not for that long. ROB's killing issue is a massive problem as well as because B-air only hits on something like frame 10 and all rob's most effective KO moves are in the air Falco can beat them out with lasers and in some cases up smash us for the kill if they land.
Horrible Horrible matchup in my opinion
-2 or -3 more -2 because of ROB's gimp game
Mister Eric
Twitch.tv/MisterbeepEric Twitter: @MisterbeepEric
In case I fall behind on a MU talk, would it still be okay to bring up old discussions as long as it maintains a "productive" behavior?
Any talk about the previously discussed MU's, or the current one are fine by me. I just haven't updated this because I haven't gotten any thorough or legitimate write-ups for Falco.
If any other topic comes up I will Bump the current topic or stop the spam.
If any other topic comes up I will Bump the current topic or stop the spam.
sneakytako
Smash Lord
D3 isn't that bad, you just can't play his game.
How bout we talk about actual bad MUs like ZSS?
How bout we talk about actual bad MUs like ZSS?
Mister Eric
Twitch.tv/MisterbeepEric Twitter: @MisterbeepEric
Who's ZSS have you had probz with? I never found her to be bad.
sneakytako
Smash Lord
Dude YBM's ZSS used to destroy me. I also lost to DRN. I'm mad.
It's the fact that we can't escape up that really throws a wrench in my gameplan. I need to stay away from her to avoid Dsmashes, but then I'm vulnerable to random dash attacks. I need to camp her to make her attack my shield, but once we lose the advantage getting back to the stage is worse than marth imo.
Also that ******* DRN SDIed my Dsmash to upair me in the face. That move is ********.
It's the fact that we can't escape up that really throws a wrench in my gameplan. I need to stay away from her to avoid Dsmashes, but then I'm vulnerable to random dash attacks. I need to camp her to make her attack my shield, but once we lose the advantage getting back to the stage is worse than marth imo.
Also that ******* DRN SDIed my Dsmash to upair me in the face. That move is ********.
Mister Eric
Twitch.tv/MisterbeepEric Twitter: @MisterbeepEric
And to be honest, I don't really remember how I used to play the MU tho the last times I've played it seriously was when I played a more chaotic R.O.B..
And I've only played Y.b.M. and Nicholas Riddle.
Against Nick, it was pretty even the entire way through and almost beat him on his best (or at least at the time it was) CP, Rainbow Cruise.
I think a lot of the game plan tho was to be in her face but not really if that makes any sense? Like move in and out of ftilt range seemed to be working wonders at the time.
and lol at SDI'ing Dsmash. you should just quit brawl.
And I've only played Y.b.M. and Nicholas Riddle.
Against Nick, it was pretty even the entire way through and almost beat him on his best (or at least at the time it was) CP, Rainbow Cruise.
I think a lot of the game plan tho was to be in her face but not really if that makes any sense? Like move in and out of ftilt range seemed to be working wonders at the time.
and lol at SDI'ing Dsmash. you should just quit brawl.
O_O DDD is our WORST MU!!! Are you mad!?
I second this, but she definitely has an advantage over us. I just played NR Friday, and I think I won one match out of 6 or 7 due to him SDing. While many of them were kinda close he is definitely better than me but from the matches it's because of ZSS.
I am DEFINITELY going to DDD next. Then, maybe ZSS... ZSS is not even close to as bad as DDD Sneaky. O_o
Mister Eric
Twitch.tv/MisterbeepEric Twitter: @MisterbeepEric
Well, a lot of what makes a MU hard for someone is their playstyle as well.
For example, diddy and TL are my bane. I would rather fight D3's, MKs, Master Hands all day due to how they (diddy and TL) prevent me from playing in a way that I like playing. Falco shuts down my playstyle too but I find him easier to adapt to for some reason. But then again, pro status falcos: Larry, Shugo (the only ones I've played) have shut me down. But I more-so feel it's due to not having experience against fluently tech savvy falco mains. I'm not used to getting silent lasered or b dacus'd out of everything lol.
Now I'm rambling.
Back to work for mes!
For example, diddy and TL are my bane. I would rather fight D3's, MKs, Master Hands all day due to how they (diddy and TL) prevent me from playing in a way that I like playing. Falco shuts down my playstyle too but I find him easier to adapt to for some reason. But then again, pro status falcos: Larry, Shugo (the only ones I've played) have shut me down. But I more-so feel it's due to not having experience against fluently tech savvy falco mains. I'm not used to getting silent lasered or b dacus'd out of everything lol.
Now I'm rambling.
Back to work for mes!
sneakytako
Smash Lord
DDD is just a matter of playing gay. If you can't do it then you don't win.
Zwarm
Smash Hero
ROB can play gay... are you kidding? D3 is not our worst MU, just don't let him counterpick you to BS stages, aka ban Delfino and camp him on PS1/Siege. I usually do fine against him, doesn't necessarily mean I win, but there are definitely harder MUs.
If we've moved on to D3.
Basically all i can see us being able to do is just run away, ledge camp, spam projectiles, D3's grab range is massive so we don't have much room for error in this MU. It's not the end of the world if you are grabbed but when we are D3 racks up alot of damage on us, and once he D-throws us off stage we have to be smart with how we get back or we'll eat B-air, waddle dee throw. Or if we're at the right range sometimes eat F-tilt. the biggest issue in this MU though is the fact D3 just doesn't die on stage, so if you get chance for throws take them and try gimping him. Oh and keep Gyro out constantly sometimes it can save you from being chain throwed further.
I don't this MU is unwinable but it's incredibly hard -2/-3 but more -2 thanks to the fact our gimp game is good.
Basically all i can see us being able to do is just run away, ledge camp, spam projectiles, D3's grab range is massive so we don't have much room for error in this MU. It's not the end of the world if you are grabbed but when we are D3 racks up alot of damage on us, and once he D-throws us off stage we have to be smart with how we get back or we'll eat B-air, waddle dee throw. Or if we're at the right range sometimes eat F-tilt. the biggest issue in this MU though is the fact D3 just doesn't die on stage, so if you get chance for throws take them and try gimping him. Oh and keep Gyro out constantly sometimes it can save you from being chain throwed further.
I don't this MU is unwinable but it's incredibly hard -2/-3 but more -2 thanks to the fact our gimp game is good.
Mister Eric
Twitch.tv/MisterbeepEric Twitter: @MisterbeepEric
I actually like D3 on delph. I don't find him too hard to avoid on walls and walk-offs.
And whenever the ROB vs ZSS MU becomes more like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIEgc2pSZ6A
Then I'll be a bit more worried about it, even then I'm sure you can condition yourself to avoid the setups.
And whenever the ROB vs ZSS MU becomes more like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIEgc2pSZ6A
Then I'll be a bit more worried about it, even then I'm sure you can condition yourself to avoid the setups.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
omg @ that vid.
****ing japanese wifi is rediculous.
****ing japanese wifi is rediculous.
Mister Eric
Twitch.tv/MisterbeepEric Twitter: @MisterbeepEric
I don't see why every ZSS doesn't know this by heart. What a waste of character ability. Same goes for the diddy nanner lock.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
I have a friend that practices with ZSS almost daily, and he tells me the infinite is a lot harder then it looks. He has trouble getting it consistently still. I'd imagine that japanese players like him are just more likely to put in the immense amount of work required.