R.I.P. Kjell Anders "Nappy" Peterson.

[SuSa]

Browse frame data threads.

Or use Eternal Yoshi's awesome post with them all if I can find it...

I think EY's data is wrong on MOST ALL of this...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7827715&highlight=pummel#post7827715

DDDs pummel lasts 29 frames.
EY has it listed as 31.

=\

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Browse frame data threads.

Or use Eternal Yoshi's awesome post with them all if I can find it...

I think EY's data is wrong on MOST ALL of this...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7827715&highlight=pummel#post7827715

DDDs pummel lasts 29 frames.
EY has it listed as 31.

=\

T______________T

MK's pummel percentages are easy messed up.
0 pummels from 0%-214%
1 pummels from 215%-250%

I am confident that my excel sheet mimics your formulas listed, however, these results cannot humanly accurate.

Most threads do not list pummel frames :/

 

[etecoon]

so basically you can't pummel me ever

schweet

 

[SuSa]

They are humanly possible, and up to about 140-160% should be around the range for 1 pummel at a pummel rate of 1 pummel per 29 frames. This was done by a human (Reflex) and I am using it as the HIGH EXTREME.

If we can get this accurate, I may ask you to create a second chart with a more average number. (Replacing 0.87 inputs per frame with 0.56, which if you read the formula you can figure out the rest from there... 16 = inhuman, 13 = Reflex, and 8 = average)

Then we can have an "average-extreme" level and people can choose depending on if they know their opponent is mashing like a mother ****er or not.

EDIT:
Try to find the threads you can get pummel data for. I'll work on gathering it myself using PSA and Brawlbox and stuffs...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

so basically you can't pummel me ever

schweet

No, MK's pummeling speed is so slow that if you grab someone and they have insane button mashing skills to equal one input per frame, you get 0 pummels guaranteed. It is not until over 200% that you even get one guaranteed pummel. However, there is the problem of can someone humanly achieve that potiental to button mash that fast.

Edit:

They are humanly possible, and up to about 140-160% should be around the range for 1 pummel at a pummel rate of 1 pummel per 29 frames. This was done by a human (Reflex) and I am using it as the HIGH EXTREME.

If we can get this accurate, I may ask you to create a second chart with a more average number. (Replacing 0.87 inputs per frame with 0.56, which if you read the formula you can figure out the rest from there... 16 = inhuman, 13 = Reflex, and 8 = average)

Then we can have an "average-extreme" level and people can choose depending on if they know their opponent is mashing like a mother ****er or not.

Yeah, it does not take that long to alter this. The only manual parts to this sheet are you have to login in the pummel speed by hand, then you have to scroll through some 250 columns of calculations looking for the mark when 0 pummels goes to 1 pummel and so on. It probaby sounds worse than it actually does. But if you want to log all characters, it would take some time.

 

[etecoon]

aww

I can still plank though

 

[SuSa]

My goal is to log every character, and I need to get the pummel speeds for everyone.

If you can just create a second document titled "average_Grab" and name the current one "extreme_Grab" it may make things easier....

Thanks for your help on this btw

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I do not think using an arbitary number like 13 to mimic reflex or 8 to represent average is a good representation of button mashing speed and reaction time. Even by altering the number from 13 to 8, MK goes like this:

0 pummels from 0-111%
1 pummels from 112-250%

before it was this

0 pummels from 0%-214%
1 pummels from 215%-250%


Even that seems too good to be true. But yeah, I'll do what you suggested.

 

[SuSa]

That's assuming MK's pummel is really as slow as EY has it out to be, which I don't think it is. =\

Also the number isn't arbitary. :s Unless I translated the epic DDD post wrong.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224658

Read that and tell me if you think my formula poorly represents what that threads trying to say...

EDIT:
Actually the above seems totally plausable assuming my formula isn't wrong and you can mash properly and MK's pummel is as slow as EY has listed... <_<

Try working with DDD's 29 frame pummel, and Sonic's is 11 IIRC? So try Sonic's as well.

I can mash out before being pummeled at like 80-90% usually vs MK.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

ARE YOU TRYING TO ****ING TORTURE ME!?!

I will take your word for it that you have reasoned that reflex averages -13 frame and the average player could do -8 frames.

Alright, well, if we are going to go off of this, then the sheets are ready and all you need is accurate pummeling speeds.

Edit: Will give you the listing real quick.

DDD -13 Frame (Reflex Reaction)
0 pummels from 0-168%
1 pummels from 169-250%

DDD -8 Frame (Average Reaction)
0 pummels from 0-83%
1 pummels from 84-219%
2 pummels from 220%-250%

Going off of 11 pummeling speed (o.0)

Sonic -13 Frame (Reflex Reaction)
0 pummels from 0-31%
1 pummels from 32-115%
2 pummels from 116-199%
3 pummels from 200%-250%

Sonic -8 Frame (Average Reaction)
1 pummel from 0-50%
2 pummels from 51-102%
3 pummels from 103-154%
4 pummels from 155-205%
5 pummels from 206-250%

 

[SuSa]

We may need to lower the average reaction....=P You're right... lol

I'd consider that still pretty much on the upper end of things..... =\ seeing as I rarely can mash out after 60%-70% from DDD's grabs before I get pummeled once...and I consider myself a gewd masher. :x

EDIT:
Reread the DDD thread and also decided to come up on a possibly more realistic figure using other offline references... but we can't go any lower than this last suggestion without just saying "hur hur are you even pressing buttons?"

0.36 inputs per frame.... instead of 0.56

Changing 8 to 5, and if you can't press 1 button in 3~ frames somethings wrong. :s

EDIT:

YES IM TRYING TO TORTURE YOU

While obtaining the most accurate and representative results possible. (If Reflex can constantly mash out at 100%+ before getting pummeled over like 1-2 times... it's humanly possible... just not average)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

We may need to lower the average reaction....=P You're right... lol

I'd consider that still pretty much on the upper end of things..... =\ seeing as I rarely can mash out after 60%-70% from DDD's grabs before I get pummeled once...and I consider myself a gewd masher. :x

I put up sonic's supposed 11 pummel speed. EY had it listed as 23 lol

Why not try basing that number off of the CPU at all?

Edit:
So many edits ?_?
Alright, give me a couple. I am only doing DDD's this time.

DDD -5 Frame (Re-edited avg. reaction)
0 pummel 0-32%
1 pummel 33-117%
2 pummel 118-202%
3 pummel 203-250%

Edit 2: I just thought of a way to make this whole process faster

 

[SuSa]

That seems so much more realistic with the re-edited avg. reaction.... hahaha...

Also that chart is smexy, but is there anyone to remove the .5's? :s Otherwise thats perfect :o

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

This is MK's pummeling ranges with a -5 frame (re-edited avg. reaction) at a 35 pummeling speed. The only other thing to do is to recolor it and probably make it smaller. It's too big.

Using EY's data for pummeling speed of lucario at 12, and using this -5 frame thing, he gets upwards to 8 guaranteed pummels near 200%+.

 

[SuSa]

That also seems pretty reasonable to me. That holds up with relatively close to my performance on breaking. I just never really gave much effort past 125%... as I always assumed they'd likely only go for 1 pummel and throw me anyways...

EDIT:
Lucario's pummel speed is like 3.... don't ust any of EY's data... <_< Lucario/Wolf have STUPID FAST pummels.... lol

Until I get my new Brawl disc and can run a frame-by-frame or if I can fnd where pummels are in the characters .pac files - only use data I give you....please... :x EY's pummel data is just...so.. bad.. I don't understand.

He was also off by 2 frames on our jump.. our jump is 9 frames not 11.

This only makes me worry about how off our data could be....

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That also seems pretty reasonable to me. That holds up with relatively close to my performance on breaking. I just never really gave much effort past 125%... as I always assumed they'd likely only go for 1 pummel and throw me anyways...

EDIT:
Lucario's pummel speed is like 3.... don't ust any of EY's data... <_< Lucario/Wolf have STUPID FAST pummels.... lol

HOLY +^%&!!!
At 3 speed and -5, lucario could do 6 pummels at 0%, wtf!

Here is a thought also. There could be a listing of data that tells you how many pummels you could get if your opponent DOES NOT try to break out. I mean, if I am pummeling at 120%, I might not know how many pummels I can get in before my opponent will auto release. Provided they are not trying to break out, and you can hear if someone is or not.

Ok, well, it seems all we need know is that data and a more way to figure out that average frame reduction input.

 

[SuSa]

I found the subaction for pummels! I'll be working on grabbing data for you.

Also that was a guess on Lucario's.

It seems Snake's pummel is either 18 or 17 frames.. I need to learn to read this asynchronous timer stuff...

EDIT:
I'm totally open to that thought, if you're up to the work.

EDIT 2:

This doesn't seem right at all:

Snake = 18
Lucario = 8
Falcon = 16
Meta Knight = 21?
Diddy Kong = 17
Donkey Kong = 16

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I found the subaction for pummels! I'll be working on grabbing data for you.

Also that was a guess on Lucario's.

It seems Snake's pummel is either 18 or 17 frames.. I need to learn to read this asynchronous timer stuff...

EDIT:
I'm totally open to that thought, if you're up to the work.

Well, it seems like any results we put out would be total bogus since it would not be very accurate. I think in the mean time I can get that maximum number of pummels in before the person will auto release anyway and you would want to throw them.

Edit: Oh, wait. I cannot even do that because all of this relys on how many frames it takes to pummel >_>

 

[SuSa]

Snake = 18
Lucario = 8
Falcon = 16
Meta Knight = 21? - his is special.. it doesn't have an RA-BIT [16] from what I can tell.. I'm.. assuming..this
Diddy Kong = 17
Donkey Kong = 16
Falco = 17
Wolf = 7

Taking it from SubAction 70 (CatchAttack... Catch means Grab, and this is the only thing related to pummeling I can find...)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Wow, is it already 4 in the morning o.0

Well, with all of this time, I believe I have finally perfected this program. Or rather made so that all I have to input is two numbers (reduction speed) and (pummeling speed), and out pops a chart of the ranges in under 5 seconds

I take it all of those are ripped right out of the files themselves?

Edit:

Could you do a simple test for me at all? I don't have a wii.

If Snake does indeed have an 18 pummel speed. Then, you should be able to grab a human controlled player (that has no inputs) at 0%, and be able to pummel them 5 times before they auto break. This would be like the best test of these numbers.

 

[SuSa]

You don't have a wii, I don't have a working copy of Brawl.... XD

Also yes, I'm getting my data straight from the files themselves. If anything I'm reading the data wrong and everything I'm saying is 1 frame slower. :x

EDIT:
Snake = 18
Lucario = 8
Falcon = 16
Meta Knight = 21? - his is special.. it doesn't have an RA-BIT [16] from what I can tell.. I'm.. assuming..this
Diddy Kong = 17
Donkey Kong = 16
Falco = 17
Wolf = 7
Fox = 10
G&W = 13
Ganon = 18
Ike = 23? The more I look at this data, the less it makes sense...
Kirby = 10
Bowser = 9 | Also appears to have the only 2 frame hitbox pummel?


I'm stopping here until someone can help confirm these or make sense of the data.... either that or my memory of pummel speeds is botched. But I'm POSITIVE Bowser is slower at pummeling than Fox......

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I do not even have either of them lol

I won't be getting it until thanksgiving.

Perhaps some other nocternal creature around here has a working copy of brawl and a wii, and can do it right now.

 

[SuSa]

See my above post, for now I'm done. It takes like 4 seconds to open the character, find SubAction 70, and write down what I see.... but god**** does this not make any sense to me.

Some of them don't have their asynchronous timers in the MAIN, but rather the OTHER section. Any of the ones with a rumble also have their rumble appear in the other section.

It appears all hitboxes (save Bowsers so far) are 1 frame, which makes sense... but the timers are all a mess and it's confusing when they are all ordered differently...

You can tell this games coding went through no double-checks or standardization.. theres no reason to explain why MK is missing his RA-BIT[16] and all the timers for everyone are either in Main or Other... nothings consistent, theres always some weird exceptions to frames (Squirtle has -1 frame air break, DK has -10 frame ground break, Ness/Lucas have +10 frame ground break, etc.)

Here's Bowser's pummel data:

Asynchronous Timer:frames=8
Special Offensive Collision: Hurtbox stuff
Synchonous Timer: frames=2
Terminate collisions:

Compare that to Snake's:

Asynchronous Timer:frames=1
Hitbox stuff
Synchronous Timer:frames=1
Terminate Collisions:
Asynchronous Timer:frames=17
Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[16]=True

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think I am done as well. I was reading MuvLuv Unlimited until you brought this project upon me and now I have spent the last 3 hours almost working on this lol I am better learning how to use Microsoft Excel this way.

Actually, a lot of those pummel speeds make since. Ike's is actually really slow along with MK. Lucario, and Wolf on the other hand make sense. Bowser though, I never really ever pummeled with him before, so my memory on him is vague. But, it is suprising to see it so fast.

lul Bowser gets to hit people longer!

 

[SuSa]

Look at my Bowser/Snake example above and you'll see why I'm done right now.... the data is such a mess this is a pain in the ***.

My memory of all pummels except Lucario and Wolf is pretty vague... lol

EDIT:
Or just look here:

Here's Bowser's pummel data:

Asynchronous Timer:frames=8
Special Offensive Collision: Hurtbox stuff
Synchonous Timer: frames=2
Terminate collisions:

Compare that to Snake's:

Asynchronous Timer:frames=1
Hitbox stuff
Synchronous Timer:frames=1
Terminate Collisions:
Asynchronous Timer:frames=17
Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[16]=True

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That looks like a pain to try to shift through. Not even sure what the RA-Bit16 thing is.

Do you want a copy of this excel sheet at all, or no? You could probably figure out the sheet if you looked over it. Or I could spend like 15 minutes trying to explain everything I did in it for how it looks now.

 

[SuSa]

For now theres no point of me having a copy, until we get the data confirmed. So if you don't mind holding onto the data for a while...

Also the RA-BIT[16] almost doesn't seem like it belongs there if my understanding of what that bit does... =| thats one of the confusing parts....

But pretty much highest asynchronous timer, add 1 to it, you have the ending to the move. (I cba explaining why you add +1 to it... lol... but if my understanding of how it works is correct, you do.. if not - then I'm off by a frame on everything)

And that's assuming theres no catch to this CatchAttack SubAction70 and it's not all just a lie... <_<

Like I said... if I'm reading all this right and my data's right - I can get the rest of it in like 4 minutes... but why bother if this much seems wrong to me? :s

EDIT:
Awesome.. Yoshi thread has a thing on their pummel made by another SL member.

Start Up:5
Hit:6
Hitlag: 6-10 (just visual hitlag, doesn't have any effect)
Ends:19
Frequenz: 3/s
Each 20. Frame one Pummel

The way I have to read Yoshi's data for this - is by adding the Asynchronous timers with eachother (5, which is the startup), the hitbox hits on frame 6, and after frame 5 theres 15 more frames - making 20.

So ignore ALL of my data. I see how it works now

Going from top-to-bottom of the .pac files:
Falcon = 18 | 3 startup 15 ending
Diddy = 17 | 1 startup 16 ending
Donkey Kong = 23 | 8 Startup 15 ending
Falco = 20 | 4 Startup 16 ending
Fox = 10 | 1 startup 9 ending
G&W = 12? | Unsure still...
Ganon = 20 | 3 startup 17 ending
Ike = 26 | 4 startup 22 ending
Kirby = 17 | 8 Starting 9 ending
Bowser = 8 | Like G&W.. idk
Link = 23 | 5 startup 18 ending
Lucario = 8 | 1 startup 7 ending
Lucas = 14 | 2 startup 12 ending
Luigi = 15 | ???? Also has 2 hitboxes? O_o
Mario = 15 | Hmm... makes sense I guess
Marth = 20 | 5 startup 15 ending
Meta Knight = 34? | 3 startup, 11 middle, 20 ending? Idk...
Ness = 11 | 2 startup 9 ending
Peach = 21 | 3 starting 18 ending (and she has 3 hitboxes wtf?)
Pit = 16 | 1 starting 15 ending
Fushigisou (Ivysaur?) = 29 | 5 startup 24 ending
Lizardon (Charizard) = 17 | 1 startup 16 ending
Zenigame (Squirtle) = 1 | ..... WHAT THE ****?
Ice Climbers = 28 | 10 starting 18 ending?
Jigglypuff = 29 | 9 starting 20 ending
ROB = 17 | 1 starting 16 ending
Samus = 10 | 2 starting 8 ending
Sheik = 8 | ???
Snake = 18 | 1 startup 17 ending
Sonic = 18 | 3 startup 15 ending
ZSS = 16 | 1 startup 15 ending
Toon Link = 23 | 5 startup 18 ending

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

lol

Alright, well, if you do manage to continue with this, send me a PM. I am heading to bed now since it is much later than I have stayed up since before summer began.

 

[_Ignis_]

I need to get back into this. Finally got a profile with my correct name -.- so I'm picking my snake back up and getting involved in the boards. Good way to get my snake skills back

 

[Cherry64]

So, squirtle doesn't have a frame one pummel...

 

[SuSa]

So, squirtle doesn't have a frame one pummel...

Don't you think I know that?

Should I post Squirtle's data? Theres no other timers besides 1....it doesn't make any sense.

 

[Cherry64]

no no, I was just being a tard lol. Just giving you a hard time

 

[SuSa]

So I forgot, our grenade pull is 1 frame (we drop the grenade if hit)....

That totally makes grenade OoS viable if you're wanting to go for a trade off (EG: MK's ftilt.. if you powershield the first hit, shield drop and pull a grenade if you predict he's going to follow through)

I feel dumb. I was reminded of this by an Ike main.

 

[etecoon]

that's not always a good thing though, trade offs are never even, you're taking the original hit, the grenade, and potentially a follow up hit that will put you in a disadvantaged position anyway(only some characters can do this with that much frequency but it's still bad)

 

[SuSa]

And our other options against ftilt are?

We have nothing. Just an FYI, it's run or get hit or grabbed.

Also we can do this when they are at a higher % and cannot follow us up. (EG: Snake 14% vs MK 90%)

 

[etecoon]

running away is a perfectly good option compared to willingly taking 3x the damage that MK is and ending up off stage anyway

 

[SuSa]

Where did you get the 3x the damage and ending up off stage from?

Remember that frame data can only look at the possibilities and choices. It does not weigh situations, predictions, or spacing.

It's up to you to decide on the situation and spacing your best possible option. Most of this should just be second nature if you actually want to be able to do this. Kind of like proper DI, it's practically second nature for most. The instant you get hit you're already DI'ing in the proper direction.

 

[etecoon]

you take the ftilt, the grenade, and another hit if he DI's into you and hits you first. in MK's case it's not 3x as much but it's still ending with you in a worse position than if you just backed off

this is a lot easier and more effective with marth though admittedly, using marth against yall now >: D

 

[SuSa]

You'd likely take the 2nd ftilt trying to move anyways, rolling is a stupid option seeing as the MK can just dash grab you. Your best bet may even be to try and pull a grenade + dash back and hope in 1 frame you can escape the inevitable ftilt.

MK's ftilt is STUPID. =|

Again, factor in different %'s. It may be a "we're at a significantly lower % than MK" type of tradeoff, so it's impossible for MK to punish us. So all we take is the ftilt + grenade, and we may be ableto get a hit off of HIM and even out the damage. But you're thinking from an MK-biased view not and probably didn't think of that and assumed that MK would just always have the possibility of the hit during DI instead of Snake, who'd always have it if he's at a significantly lower %. In fact - grenade trade off --> uair is a viable kill at quite a few %'s.

I go better against Mk than Marth. =\ Oddly enough

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I have this vague recollection that if you hold the grab button, you perform a sort of light shield similar to melee. Is that true or am I just so fugged up with melee I think I can do that in brawl.