Quick Attack Cancel Tactics and Discussion

[God_Mains_Pichu]

Relatively often when I try to quack into an edgehog, I just fly off the stage and die. Do you have to be facing a certain direction? Am I doing something wrong or does it only work when you begin within certain distances from the stage? Thanks for your help.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Well, you should definitely try to be about one quick-attack's length away.

I don't know if you have to, but after my QA against the ground I always lightly hold back, towards the edge. And all is fine.

By the way, I noticed that while quacking around, I sometimes do a shortened quick-attack. Why is that? And how do I do it whenever I want to?

 

[Ussi]

It's all on the angle you have your control stick. i just tested this in final destination in training mode. B-sticking helps! 45 degrees will reduce about to 2/3 the length. Every angle is a different distance. But i think only the 45 degree angle would be the easiest short QA to do since there is a groove in the controller for that.

also, do a complete horizontal QA then follow it up by an angled QA into the ground, you'll do your 2nd QA and it'll be shorten. this will allow greater traveling from one end to the stage to the other since its more distance. Be careful that you don't slip of the edge by QAing too far. SLIPPING OF THE EDGE EQUALS DEATH cause you just finished QA in the air meaning you cant use it again till you land but there is no where to land when you went to FAR. If you're lucky you might grab the edge but usually you won't.

 

[Tagxy]

Sorry I haven't been on in awhile, and I've been terrible about editing the front page, promise I'll do it sometime >_>. Anyways, did someone say they could cancel into a d-smash? How do you do that?

Anyways part of my argument for b-stick, it's easier to deal with input the angle you want. Although I guess it all depends on which you think you'll screw up less/what you become more proficient with.

Relatively often when I try to quack into an edgehog, I just fly off the stage and die. Do you have to be facing a certain direction? Am I doing something wrong or does it only work when you begin within certain distances from the stage? Thanks for your help.

You can do it at any point from the stage that you'd fall off of if you hold backwards diagnolly in the opposite direction you were holding. If you're at the very end of the stage, sometimes thatll mean a second quick attack, but that's better then SDing.

 

[D. Disciple]

I dunno if this has been mentioned yet or not.

I'm not entirely sure if this is true or not. I don't own the game or a wii yet. I think using QAC can be useful in terms of the general physics theory. Like say you were spamming usmash a lot for some reason and you noticed that it got weaker or any other killing move that Pika has. I starting to QAC around the stage, and noticed that the knockback almost went back to normal. Can someone check that theory out for me please and see if it's actually true.

 

[festizzio]

I dunno if this has been mentioned yet or not.

I'm not entirely sure if this is true or not. I don't own the game or a wii yet. I think using QAC can be useful in terms of the general physics theory. Like say you were spamming usmash a lot for some reason and you noticed that it got weaker or any other killing move that Pika has. I starting to QAC around the stage, and noticed that the knockback almost went back to normal. Can someone check that theory out for me please and see if it's actually true.

I'll test that out right now, seems like it should work though.

Also, it seems like doing a perfect QAC is about the same as doing a perfect wavedash in Melee. If you were good at wavedashing, QAC'ing should be a piece of cake.

 

[Anther]

Lotsa knowledge and answers to questions right here!! lol.

By the way, I noticed that while quacking around, I sometimes do a shortened quick-attack. Why is that? And how do I do it whenever I want to?

Quick attack'll shorten if you release the stick before you're done travelling.

Can someone check that theory out for me please and see if it's actually true.

Relating to quick attack and returning power to deteriorated moves...
And since the list of moves that have been used is 9 attacks long. Let's say you used upsmash 8 attacks that connected ago. If you quick attack through someone twice, Usmash's power will be fully returned. If you whiff them, it doesn't change anything. D=

SLIPPING OF THE EDGE EQUALS DEATH cause you just finished QA in the air meaning you cant use it again till you land but there is no where to land when you went to FAR. If you're lucky you might grab the edge but usually you won't.

In regards to that, if you know the lengths of the stage and get used to how far quick attack goes, after doing a quick attack that might send you off the stage, you can press straight back to the direction you came from. Because of the auto-sweetspotting, you'll usually never be too low from diagnally quick attacking off the ground, and you'll edgehog even if you missed the original edgehog by a bit...
But like you said, if you did it with the second part of quick attack, you just SD'd XD.

And as something extra... a nice QAC technique to practice is to QAC'ing right past your opponent, and then following up with a rising uair the same way as you would in melee. At low-medium percents this can lead to a neutral aerial... or a forward air to a downsmash. Some characters can retaliate after you upair, but most of the time it just works ^^... and if it doesn't, you can airdodge to avoid characters that can knock you out of your combo.

 

[Anther]

oop, double post D=.
This is in reply to the arguments that were going on earlier... lol...

Btw my Opinion on B-sticking. Everything that's possible with B-sticking works without B-sticking. You can wavebounce by hitting b and moving the control stick very quickly. It's not as useful with pika because of how mobile he is in the air with neutral-b, but I can see some very good applications with defensive thundering without using your double jump or even bouncing past your opponent off stage and wavebouncing into a headbutt as an edgeguard (a bit flashy, but a use...)

Of course, you can still do most things without the c-stick, but I think that most people that b-stick lose a lot of potential combo control and DI options you have when you attack with the C-stick. Also, I'd have a hard time pulling off the follow ups to QAC without having the C-stick mapped to do aerials. If you land from quick attack, u-air, then you usually need to do a fast falled backwards fair, then follow with a downsmash. It's all possible without it, but I think you're creating a lot of risk to just mess up your combo because of how much more finger motion you have to do to pull it off.

At the same time I know QACing requires a bit of stick motion to pull off, but if you practice it with the b button for a while, it really can't be that hard to do certain QAC patterns without screwing up too much.

Just my inputs on that though =X.

 

[Ammeren]

I've been B-sticking my pikachu, but it seems the advantages and disadvantages for it are on par with one another =/

B-Stick : Auto RAR, wavebouncing easier, QAC easier
Non B-Stick : Greater control of aerials, easier aerials, easier dash -->up smash

Btw, Anther or anyone else, have you tried using fox trotting to move pika all the time? It seems a bit predictable to me, but you can dash and do his forward smash really quickly. What do you guys think?

 

[Tagxy]

I think it depends entirely on how you intend to use the QAC. While it is possible to do just about everything without the b-stick, if you intend to do a ton of QAC chains as a means of movement, it's helpful to have the fewest amount of whiffs as possible since theyre fairly punishable. I'm not sure how effective itll be yet, but with QAC movement your essentially giving up mobility for speed, so any way you can increase mobility (even if its just have a split second longer to fine tune your direction) is helpful.

Odd thing, after I started using the b-stick, when I went back to doing it the normal way after about 5 minutes of floundering, I found that I had an easier time pulling of b-button QAC chains after using the b-stick then in all the time I had spent practicing prior to b-stick.

P.S. wth is phanna doing at the beggining of his video where pikachu is spinning on circles to the right? That's so pimp.

 

[Ussi]

i don't b-stick, i'm too used to using the control stick cause that's what i started with. besides i need my c-stick dsmash.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Wasn't that dtilt?

I cannot b-stick. I tried it. It's nice, but I am already fluid enough with quacking through up+b. It's not THAT hard.

Back in melee Falco had to waveshine dammn perfectly to make his combos work. And the second you missed your jump-cancel with Falco, you were going to suffer (at least at high levels of play). I can't imagine learning to quack is much different.

I use it a -lot- for movement. It's better on bigger stages, mind you. But spacing is pretty important in this game... retreating upair and fairs are quite important etc.

The turn around thunder thing (I forgot the name... =O ) is much easier with bstick as well. But I mean, why fiddle around with strategies are going to be knocked out by metagame soon? If you played melee, you know what is needed to win the approach game by now. You know what sorts of things serve as mindgames, pressure, etc.

The metagame for brawl is going to have an acceleration of 1.337^9001 .

... but goodness knows that it's likely to peak way too soon. Melee will never peak. =/

 

[Tagxy]

Back in melee Falco had to waveshine dammn perfectly to make his combos work. And the second you missed your jump-cancel with Falco, you were going to suffer (at least at high levels of play). I can't imagine learning to quack is much different.

But that's the point. The entire idea is that B-sticking causes less misses and more fluidity because of the nature of how each is performed(especially on smaller stages with many platforms), regardless of how good you become with QA. It's the same exact reason why people use the c-stick for smashes in melee rather then the analog + A.

 

[Spyckie]

Tagxy - Phanna just did pikachu's walking back and forth. It does make him look pimp though...

and Anther - how important is the ability to combo off of aerials? Have you found any combos that work well? I see your point about having aerial control, but it seems to me that because the stun is so short you always get hit if you try to go for multiple combos in the air, especially against people with better priority than you. I never chase after people once they're in the air and I never up-air anymore (because of its sucky damage and lack of combo options). This may just be because I play a vicious metaknight who has taught me never to try to hit him in the air, from any direction, after any attack. (seriously, MK's air dominance is insane...)

 

[BrianM]

I think I'm just going to use up-B for QACing. I mean, if I accidentally jump one more **** time using the c-stick, I'm gonna destroy something in real life. It's infuriating, really.

 

[festizzio]

Anybody else think "quacking" is a terrible name for a Pikachu technique and that we decided on it way too soon?

 

[Kilikan]

if you want to zip around with qa, keep b-sticking it and HOLD down/left down/right and there's zero recovery.

 

[Tagxy]

It's not impossible to do combos with the b-stick. I can still do the uair->fair->dsmash without normal c-stick (although I know it's easier without it).

I think I'm just going to use up-B for QACing. I mean, if I accidentally jump one more **** time using the c-stick, I'm gonna destroy something in real life. It's infuriating, really.

With practice you start avoiding that. It's actually advantagous to be able to do so, because it helps you greatly with your timing on normal quick attacks.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

But that's the point. The entire idea is that B-sticking causes less misses and more fluidity because of the nature of how each is performed(especially on smaller stages with many platforms), regardless of how good you become with QA. It's the same exact reason why people use the c-stick for smashes in melee rather then the analog + A.

I suppose it's a matter of preference.

I dare say that when you learn to perfect (verb, not adjective) quack, as many falcos perfected waveshine at high level, it won't matter whether you bstick it or not. You can improve your consistency. You cannot improve being able to downsmash at a second's notice or retreating aerials perfectly.

It will eventually become muscle memory to quack with up+b. Muscle memory cannot make up for the loss of the c-stick. Keep in mind that it's not only smash attacks that c-stick is used for. It is really often used for DIing and attacking at the same time.

But it could just be that I'm far too conservative.

 

[Tagxy]

It really is a matter of preference, I think that's how it's always going to be.

I think the problem is people are still thinking of QAC only in terms of a consistent technique like waveshining where it's a matter of memorization. That's fine, it can certainly be used like that and is much easier to use that way. In that case b-sticking might not be a great benefit. But I still think QAC has more potential (although maybe not!), specifically as a means of movement and maybe in other ways as well. In this case, it's sort of like an intense version of wavedashing, since QAC Dashing is not only much harder to pull off in the first place, but also requires a great deal more precision with the angles. And since it's a form of movement, it requires you to react consistantly and for long periods of time based very highly on how your opponent freely moves. As I said, it's the same reason people used c-stick to smash in melee. Pulling of one frame smashes is easy, and pulling them off consistently takes practice but is certainly doable. However, an argument can be made that using analog + A will never be as consistent as the c-stick with smashing.

As for DI, it's possible though difficult to do whichever attack you'd like and DI in the direction you'd like as well.

For me personally, I don't DI and attack in different directions nearly as often as I QAC, and in any case have started practicing attacking and DIing in different directions without the c-stick and am getting better with it. And I've never felt like I needed a c-stick to smash, since I don't often spam smashes one after the other consistency isn't as important, I don't use them as often as QAC now, and a whiffed smash isnt as bad as a result for me as a whiffed up-b QA (even the whiff isnt as bad with a b-stick, it's usually a jump rather then lag).

P.S. By no means am I bad at up-bing my QAC. Even though earlier in this thread I said it'd be impossible to QAC Dash without the b-stick, I figured out how to do it anyways (after being owned by raptor, lol). Even still, to me the difference between using b-stick and up-b is still there.

 

[Spyckie]

btw, I don't think QAC will replace movement - the lack of the ability to shield right out of QAC makes it not a very safe move. You can full hop air dodge, but then you lack control of positioning - all in all, it doesn't keep you very safe (unlike wavedashing, where you can transition from wdash to shield easily).

 

[Tagxy]

I doubt it will replace it. It's situational, I've found it most useful so far at putting or keeping pressure on people.


Btw, something I like to do with QAC. As soon as the match starts (meaning the second you hear GO), do a long QAC towards your opponent (meaning using both portions of the QA to go either left or right) and jump onto an aerial. Even if they dodge it, they usually end up confused and you gain valuable momentum since you're in their face at the very beginning of the match.

 

[think13]

*Bump* This thread needs to be stickied!

 

[ForestSage]

I doubt it will replace it. It's situational, I've found it most useful so far at putting or keeping pressure on people.


Btw, something I like to do with QAC. As soon as the match starts (meaning the second you hear GO), do a long QAC towards your opponent (meaning using both portions of the QA to go either left or right) and jump onto an aerial. Even if they dodge it, they usually end up confused and you gain valuable momentum since you're in their face at the very beginning of the match.

I'm sorry but what is the easiest way to use your quick attack to go in the same direction, twice?

 

[think13]

ForestSage: Two ways: 1) jump, QA forward, then down at an angle. 2) QA angle up to angle down.

 

[ForestSage]

oh okay that makes sense, but i more so meant how do you actually do both purely straight with both portions?

 

[Tagxy]

If you're on the ground, QA right then diagnol down right. Or left if you want to go left. You cant do the same direction twice, but because you cant move through the stage youll only move on the horizontal axis.

 

[Framerate]

I've found that I use QAC most for a QAC into a thunder. Usually when my opponent is above me, he's air dodging all the time, he knows a thunder is coming. If he's up high and to the side, as soon as I short hop he starts air dodging assuming a thunder. But the thing that usually catches them off guard is a QAC into thunder, cause it's just so fast. I get beneath him in half the time as a short hop, and as soon as I finish the QA i'm thundering. It's just really cool seeing pikachu zip over and immediately thunder, and it's so sudden that my opponent doesn't have much time to react. But of course, using this too often will be just as readable as the aforementioned tactics.

 

[MR.SMILEY]

this could really increase any pikachu mains game play it helps alot it has even helped me and it makes pikachu even more deadly thanks alot

 

[ADHD]

Off topic: How do you B-stick with a gamecube controller?

 

[Ussi]

go to control settings in options i believe? And well stick c-stick to specials instead of smash attacks.

 

[Eggm]

I"ve found quick attack canceling onto a platform then holding down to fall through it has uses and is quite tricky, dunno if anyone mentioned this.

 

[Roller]

such tech...such tech...

I love doing this.

 

[Van Jones]

This is good stuff. I'm slowly trying to implement this into my pika game.

 

[Roller]

QuACing into the side of the stage, then onto it is hard to get the hang of, but really beastly.

 

[Tagxy]

Does anyone use SH nair's anymore? I feel like I almost always rely on QAC nair's more often.

 

[Skazryk]

I was originally hoping that you would be able to qac into a fsj and be able to combo them in the air, but i wasnt able to do it.

 

[orintemple]

Okay so I don't play Pikachu, and I just found out about this today, but this is nothing short of the coolest and most impressive looking AT I have seen in Brawl. I makes you look so pro just by doing it XD

 

[Tagxy]

What's fsj?

Why I love QAC part 1: So you do some diagnol QAC ->nairs and start taking out your opponent, but eventually they catch on and block and grab. Then you do a horizontal-verticle QAC -> nair and end up in back of them. Watching them continously try to grab you in the wrong direction only to take a face full of nair is awesome.

part 2: Also after theyve caught on to diagnol QAC, watching them freak out when you do several verticle QAC jumps only to toss a thundershock at them or even a smash (usually forward) if you're close enough and they were foolish enough to do a move with lots of lag (i.e. Zelda's usmash).

 

[reimeii]

you can also play a really good mind game with them, one thing ive noticed is that you can quick attack into them, then back, if the opponent was just about to begin an attack, sometimes he will be turned around and perform the attack in the other direction leaving his back wide open (doesnt always work but it works enough times to be considered)........*dont know if that has been mentioned already*