Puzzle League/Panel De Pon General (Former SSB4 Lip Support Thread)

[FalKoopa]

So, uhm... I did a thing. Not sure if the timing's good with all the Discord talk going on, but eh...

Spoiler

And before anyone asks, no, this is not an image edit, it's fully working and without crashes (at least so far). I don't really feel like going into detail right now due to lack of time, so if there's anything unclear, feel free to ask and I'll try to answer it later.

Uhm, what is this, actually?

A Panepon hack for Pokémon?

 

[Deleted member]

It's nothing fancy, really, just overwriting Chikorita's images with Ruby's with the help of a Hex editor. I haven't really found a way to properly replace a character with another, even when limiting it to just among the Pokemon, so I just replaced the graphics as a test. It still loads everything else from Chikorita though, also palette and cry. I dunno where the values for those are located.

So far I have the values for Ruby, Thiana, Cordelia, Elias, Windy and... someone else, hard to decipher.Scratch that, I found them for all 13 characters.

Oh, and it's also worth noting that the mugshot from the debug mode and those are seemingly not the same. At least that's my impression from a quick glance.

Now question of the day, would people be interested in a video showing them off? I'm asking because it's too much of a hassle if there's no demand.

 

[N. Onymous]

I'd definitely be interested! You have no idea how badly I want this to become reality. : o

In other news, I was able to transfer all of my old files over to a new computer, so the hack is back on!

 

[Deleted member]

Well, guess no video showing off the cast then, saves me a lot of hex editing, so that's fine by me. I'll probably do a small video, but only featuring one character because not everything can be shown in pictures, as you'll read below.

I'm not coming entirely empty handed though, I replaced Pichu with Lip and made cheats that load her proper palette (not working in VS COM mode though), the correct border and her stage, as well as panic music:
Left: correct palette, right, Pichu's palette:

As you can see, the border even works in the VS mode, but as stated above, it loads the palette of the original character, in this case Pichu. Luckily it's not very noticeable as the colors are very similar:

And for good measure, a comparison with the debug mode. As can be seen, the border was changed completely. There are less flowers and a giant tulip is the border of the scoreboard, as well as the removal of Lip's house. Not to mention the mugshots were revamped. At least going by the two I've seen in the debug mode (Lip and Phoenix, who looks more like a Fearow there).

 

[N. Onymous]

Pichu's palette actually looks better than the actual colors.

It looks like IS got pretty far with Panel de Pon GB. Although Japan got a Pokemon game this time too, I have to wonder if it was one of Nintendo's international branches that prompted the change...

 

[Deleted member]

(I was kinda hoping to help creating some more discussion here as there ain't any news about a new game anyway, but I guess there ain't much to talk about that either, heh.)

Nothing much for now, I still haven't managed to actually replace a character with another and it's giving me a headache. So to pass the time, and because it was pretty curious if the leftovers are only in the Japanese versions, I messed around with an European rom and found the offsets. So I dug out my old game, gameshark and console and here it is working on real hardware.

Spoiler: Grainy 3DS pic, yay

Seeing this makes me believe that they didn't bother removing the leftovers in the US version, in that case it would be easy to make cheats for that version, too. But frankly, as an European, that version was of a low priority for me, especially because I was more curious about how it would work on real hardware and I have the cartridge lying around here.

But I think most people here would prefer cheats for an US version, so maybe I'll see what I can do later. But don't get your hopes up about seeing the fairies, right now all I can do is the border and the two pieces of Lip's music (it seems like her theme is the only one in the game). Would that still be alright? Genuine question here, because it does sound a little underwhelming.

 

[N. Onymous]

Go ahead.

Someday I'd like to see someone with the abilities step up and convert Pokemon Puzzle Challenge back into Panepon GB using what was left in the ROM as well as original assets where none were created (mostly the music, since it seems the actual puzzle stuff was 95% done when they did the change). It'd be a bit of work, though, there'd be a lot of original sprites to draw and you'd have to figure the sound engine out for one thing.

 

[Deleted member]

I think you're better off creating a game from scratch than trying to to completely change one game into another. It's also worth noting that the graphics are compressed and while there is an extractor, there's no way to reinsert the graphics. Hence me replacing Pichu's with Lip's graphics with a hex editor and that won't work with everything, sadly.

Anyway, I had nothing to do this morning so I dug around in an US rom and it turns out the cheats working for the EU version also work there. I'll post them with a video showing Lip later, probably this evening.

 

[Deleted member]

Seeing as I'm more or less just talking to myself here about PPC/Panepon GB, I don't see a point in continuing talking about that game, so I think I'm gonna stop now. Still gonna experiment around with it in private, but that's about it.

So to close things off, here's, as promised, a look at Lip ingame:

 

[N. Onymous]

Don't feel like you have to stop just because no one's responding. That never stopped me. More likely, people are reading it but don't have anything to add. And hey - I'm interested, at least!

 

[smashkirby]

Don't feel like you have to stop just because no one's responding. That never stopped me. More likely, people are reading it but don't have anything to add. And hey - I'm interested, at least!

I hate to say it, but that's sort of been my problem on this thread. I feel like I don't have much to contribute, but I still greatly support this series and the idea of Lip in Smash as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't feel like you have to stop just because no one's responding. That never stopped me. More likely, people are reading it but don't have anything to add. And hey - I'm interested, at least!

Except that, if I weren't for you saying anything, that would've at least been a quadruple post on my end. Even now there's a double post and no one likes that. It was more or less just a try to get some conversation or so going, which failed. I actually partly blame the "likes" system for this, never been a fan of this or a reputation system in forums, that's why I'll never use any of these.

Anyway, to those who watched it, I hope the video was clear enough, never done an informative one before. I'll probably make some more featuring the other fairies.

 

[N. Onymous]

I take people liking posts as a sign that they read your post and, well, liked it. If they have anything to add, they'll add it. New material doesn't have to make conversation.

I will admit I'd at least appreciate some (critical) feedback on the SMB2 ROM hack, though. I'm still not 100% happy with some of the sprites I drew for it.

 

[Deleted member]

I take people liking posts as a sign that they read your post and, well, liked it. If they have anything to add, they'll add it. New material doesn't have to make conversation.

Nah, but at least saying something once in a while would be nice, I guess. Otherwise it really feels like you're talking to yourself. As for the like, I kinda see it a bit more critical, in that they are an easy way out to avoid thinking about something to say. Mind you, I'm not saying that's the case for everyone and everything, but I just can't shake off the feeling that it's kinda counterproductive.

Bah, I'm terrible at explaining myself, especially in English... Hence me also being so unsure about the video. Did I write too much? Too little? Too confusing? I don't know, heh...

I will admit I'd at least appreciate some (critical) feedback on the SMB2 ROM hack, though. I'm still not 100% happy with some of the sprites I drew for it.

Oh, I didn't say anything because I thought it was still very early and would find it therefore kinda unfair to criticize. Well, I'll try then.

I thought the first character (Lip?) had the head cut-off and still had the turban of the man from Doki Doki Panic... which in hindsight is kinda stupid on my end cause it's a hack of SMB2 and not DDP. Of course it's only one standing sprite, can't say too much there, though I guess the sprites are mirrored in the middle, hence the left and right side being symmetrical? I'd suggest making the swirl and the cowlick thingy a bit bigger so that they are more visible, although as is evident, I don't know how SMB2's sprites work, so that might be easier said than done. I remember making Cirno in SMW giving me a headache because a lot of small Mario's sprites share the same upper half.

Second, which I guess is Windy, actually looks pretty good there, probably the best outta all. Although, once again, it's only a standing sprite and, like Lip, grayed (blued?) out, so the colors are impossible to judge.

Next, is, well... Toad. Toad is Toad, I guess, pretty professional looking, hehe.

As for the last one, by the colors I'm guessing it's Seren? God, I can never remember her name, I always wanna call here Serene. The standing sprite (and head in general) still looks way too much like Peach, I think. The dress doesn't help either, as Seren's is as short as Lip's, yet there is still looks like it goes all the way to the ground. But it seems like you managed to change the palette? I don't know anything about SMB2 hacking so I dunno how hard that was, but good job on that regardless, palette's can be very finicky.

I don't think I have much else to say about that right now. Never cared too much about that game, so hacks of it are pretty alien to me.

 

[N. Onymous]

Thanks for the feedback! I've posted a few in-game screenshots elsewhere in the thread if you want to see them in action.

The character select sprites, and most sprites of the characters facing forward in fact, are drawn as a mirrored half-sprite to save ROM space, so what I have for Lip's hairdo is about as good as it's going to get. Asymmetric hairstyles don't play well with sprites that are forced to be symmetrical. The best I could do was try for ambiguity and draw something that's vaguely accurate to both the flippy-doo and the swirly. I could try making it bigger, though.

#2 is Windy, yup. Honestly my favorite of all the sprites I drew. I actually had a similar problem to Lip's hairstyle with Windy's hairband, since the feather is only supposed to be on the right end but the sprite mirroring meant it ended up showing up on both sides. I had to severely downplay its presence in the sprites where she faces the screen to make it still look okay.

Toad's already been replaced with Flare just about everywhere, except for her climbing sprites. Still have to draw those.

The last one is in fact Seren. It's kind of hard to make her not look like Peach when all you've got is 32x16 pixels. All of that hair had to lose a lot of volume to fit in there and still look good. Just about all of the sprites I've drawn for this hack, except Windy to some extent, had to sacrifice hair size to fit in. I haven't shown any of Flare's sprites yet, but she's probably the worst victim of it all... I had a really hard time getting her to still look like herself and not some weird hairy troll thing, particularly from the front. I did get Seren's white feathery headdress? thing? (I don't think they're her ears, anyway...) in there... barely.

Looking at Seren's sprites and official artwork, her dress is lower thigh-length like Lip's in the front, but it's much longer, almost floor-length, in the back. I think what I have works. Maybe I could stand to hitch up the front a bit, though...

 

[FalKoopa]

I apologise not being here much, exams and all... I should be able to give more time in the coming weeks.

Nah, but at least saying something once in a while would be nice, I guess. Otherwise it really feels like you're talking to yourself. As for the like, I kinda see it a bit more critical, in that they are an easy way out to avoid thinking about something to say. Mind you, I'm not saying that's the case for everyone and everything, but I just can't shake off the feeling that it's kinda counterproductive.

Bah, I'm terrible at explaining myself, especially in English... Hence me also being so unsure about the video. Did I write too much? Too little? Too confusing? I don't know, heh...

Don't worry about it. You've explained everything clearly (admittedly I'm not a native English speaker, but still). I'm not into rom hacking myself, so I'm not really sure what I can say to add to the conversation, to be honest. I did appreciate the video though.

I take people liking posts as a sign that they read your post and, well, liked it. If they have anything to add, they'll add it. New material doesn't have to make conversation.

I will admit I'd at least appreciate some (critical) feedback on the SMB2 ROM hack, though. I'm still not 100% happy with some of the sprites I drew for it.

I can say the sprites are definitely better than your attempt at the SMM sprite. Serene's sprite is a little... too detailed, I guess? Her outline is kind of broken because of it.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Unless any of you mates still root for the idea of Lip in Smash, you can feel free to join us.

http://smashboards.com/threads/rate...h-bros-5-edition-day-79-mewtwo.430437/page-60

 

[Deleted member]

(Perfectly timed here, heh)

Looking at TSR again, it seems like Seren's dress is indeed longer in the back and not uniformly short like I though. That's why I get for never wearing my glasses I suppose.

Although I wonder something, you mention that some characters give you much trouble giving the limitations, so why not go for easier alternatives? I think someone like Ruby would be way more distinguishable and also easier to do than Seren, who seems to have a fairly complex (for NES standards, at least) design. Or what about Sherbet? Despite her hair being asymmetrical, it wouldn't look weird if it weren't. Thiana would probably be one of the easiest characters, together with Windy.

Huh, looking at it like that, it seems like you really chose the hardest, viable characters to make. Also got anything planned for the enemies or are they gonna stay the same?

Anyway, if you need some footage recorded, I could do that for ya. Just an offer, even though my SMB2 skill are... minimal at best, atrocious at worst. I don't know what it is that puts me off of this game so much. It's not because it's a non-Mario Mario game, it's not even a bad game per se, but something about that game has always felt off to me.

 

[N. Onymous]

AwesomeAussie27 When I try to click your link it says I don't have permission.

(By the way... do I spy another Muffet fan?)

@Taigiry The only fairy you mentioned I think would maybe work in any of the characters' roles is Ruby, possibly over Peach. It makes no sense for Sherbet to have either style of floaty jump, and being the littlest of the little kids, she's definitely not the strongest. Thiana would work as a "strong" type character, considering she's described as being energetic, but Flare is by a wide margin the toughest, most masculine of the fairies (plus I like her more). I dunno. I think my mind's already made up, though if enough people say other characters would fit better, changing them out would be pretty easy.

I'm not sure if I want to change any of the enemies. I'd like to, but I don't know what to replace anyone with.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

AwesomeAussie27 When I try to click your link it says I don't have permission.

(By the way... do I spy another Muffet fan?).

Yes, I quite love Muffet a lot.

You would need an invite to join. I'll notify Azure right away so that you can rate Lip before noon. Check that inbox when you get a notification.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Thanks for the heads up. Just follow the inbox and accept the invite to the right once you click the link N N. Onymous .

 

[N. Onymous]

Hmm, I already spy five of my most wanted characters for Smash 5 (pleeeease Samurai ;.; ) on that group's banner... How about adding a sixth? : P

 

[Deleted member]

The only fairy you mentioned I think would maybe work in any of the characters' roles is Ruby, possibly over Peach. It makes no sense for Sherbet to have either style of floaty jump, and being the littlest of the little kids, she's definitely not the strongest. Thiana would work as a "strong" type character, considering she's described as being energetic, but Flare is by a wide margin the toughest, most masculine of the fairies (plus I like her more). I dunno. I think my mind's already made up, though if enough people say other characters would fit better, changing them out would be pretty easy.

Thing is, sometimes you have to sacrifice what would work best for easier visibility. But if you insist on trying to match the styles to the characters then:

• Mario = Lip (self explainatory)
• Luigi = Sherbet, especially because of the floaty jump, which would pseudo mimic ice physics, although just in the air as Luigi didn't have a slippery trajectory in this game. Not to mention he's the second slowest character in the game, fitting as you can not walk that well on ice either.
  
• Toad = Well, you said yourself Thiana would be fitting, and seeing as Flare gave you so much trouble, wouldn't it be wiser to change? Or Ruby, who is also fairly small, plus with Toad being the strongest it would sorta mimic how strong diamonds are.
  
• Princess = Doesn't even matter that much. As fairies, they all can float.

In the end you gotta ask yourself one question, is it worth it to use fitting, but too complex characters given the NES limitations? Or do I settle for less fitting but easier to distinguish ones? That's something only you can decide.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Hmm, I already spy five of my most wanted characters for Smash 5 (pleeeease Samurai ;.; ) on that group's banner... How about adding a sixth? : P

You mean Lip?

You could speak with Kenith about that one since he made the banner. But the guy recently left the forums about two months ago (only to pop up once yesterday).

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Hmm, I already spy five of my most wanted characters for Smash 5 (pleeeease Samurai ;.; ) on that group's banner... How about adding a sixth? : P

Since Lip's day would most likely be over by 2pm, you can use this time to place your score and reasonings for Lip's likeliness (along with your wants). ShinyRegice is known for having an inconsistent ending time with the Rate Their Chances thread after all.

 

[N. Onymous]

I went and voted. Seems I gave Lip the highest score by a huge margin... I mean really, people are saying the freakin' Nintendo Badge Arcade bunny has a better chance than she does? What would he even do? At least Lip has legitimate moveset potential.

 

[smashkirby]

I went and voted. Seems I gave Lip the highest score by a huge margin... I mean really, people are saying the freakin' Nintendo Badge Arcade bunny has a better chance than she does? What would he even do? At least Lip has legitimate moveset potential.

Wow, now that's...a bit much. You know, if you have the time, you could show them some of Lip's movesets that have been posted around SB for a while. Seriously, I won't lie to you guys, I'm a little bit bothered that some people are outright saying over there that Lip has NO moveset potential whatsoever. I mean, they're kidding, right?

 

[N. Onymous]

I'll try posting my Composite Moveset in the thread. Lip's got a lot more potential and a much bigger chance to be in the Smash series than a lot of people give her credit for and hopefully that'll be an eye-opener.

Edit: I came in too late, heheh. You're not allowed to discuss a character after their day is over, so that ends that.

And "officially", Lip was in the end rated lower than the Arcade Bunny, which is obviously complete bull**** and entirely unfair, but there's nothing we can do about it in the end... And my faith in this community dips once again.

 

[FalKoopa]

I haven't visited the RTC thread, but Smash 4 speculation taught me that moveset potential is NEVER a point for or against a character.

We have characters like Captain Falcon, ROB and Wii Fit Trainer whose moves are almost entirely made out of whole cloth.

Don't take the RTC ratings seriously. Back whrn the Smash 4 Speculation section was open, RTC prided itself in the fact that most of its predictions were wrong.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Why is there a new RTC thread anyway? What's the point of having one right now?

 

[N. Onymous]

It's for Smash 5. Still way too early to even be thinking about that, in my opinion, but that hasn't stopped some people.

Maybe I should've brought up Samus and the Screw Attack, huh?

 

[Curious Villager]

Falkoopa's right. Remember when everyone and their grandma saw Rosalina and Bowser jr as nothing more than simple Peach and Bowser clone material?

When people don't know much about a character or aren't as interested in them, it's easy to just lump them into a simple category such as "clone", "no moveset potential" or "sword user nr.17" based merely on what they see or hear.

I do agree that it's way to early to make any prediction's on who is or isn't likely for the next instalment as many characters and series can come and go between now and then. And for stuff such as RTC is best to not take too seriously.

Just my two cents on that.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I went and voted. Seems I gave Lip the highest score by a huge margin... I mean really, people are saying the freakin' Nintendo Badge Arcade bunny has a better chance than she does? What would he even do? At least Lip has legitimate moveset potential.

In all fairness, tbh, I think the Nintendo Badge Arcade bunny has a better chance than she does because Lip is just such a forgotten character at this point. She too new to be Retro and too old and obscure to be a main pick.


I mean, sure, I don't know what he'd do either. But that's irrelevant.



Still, though, if we're talking about a prospective Smash NX, I think the most likely candidates are the first-party characters who were at the top of the Smash ballot (likely K. Rool for sure, and maybe Isaac), Inklings, Wolf, and Ice Climbers. I don't see Lip having much of a chance unless we get another Panel de Pon WITH the fairies.

 

[N. Onymous]

In all fairness, tbh, I think the Nintendo Badge Arcade bunny has a better chance than she does because Lip is just such a forgotten character at this point. She too new to be Retro and too old and obscure to be a main pick.

I mean, sure, I don't know what he'd do either. But that's irrelevant.

Maybe as an assist trophy, but as a fighter, definitely not. I still think Lip has a much better chance than he does.

Remember also that Kid Icarus was dead in the water at the time of Brawl's release. For Frogs the Bell Tolls was even deader than that at the time of Smash 4. I don't think whether or not a franchise is "forgotten" should be a reason not to include a character. If Nintendo can remember the Prince of Sable, whose game is arguably more obscure than Panel de Pon, then they can easily remember Lip.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Sounds like I have a few more people interested in invites?

Though Fal is right about RTC being more of a fun community thing not meant to be taken serious. Everyone has their own thoughts and opinions, though they can be a bit out there at times (clones, swordsman, third party, etc). And Sakurai had proven us wrong enough times with certain newcomers that not many people were keen on (or even clone cuts we never thought would return). We mostly do it not only to rate potential newcomers, but current veterans that may or may not be low priority next time (Like and for example).

 

[FalKoopa]

Maybe as an assist trophy, but as a fighter, definitely not. I still think Lip has a much better chance than he does.

Nintendo has promoted him quite a bit though. He even has an SMM costume, which he got before many other popular contenders like Daisy, E. Gadd and many retros.

In all fairness, tbh, I think the Nintendo Badge Arcade bunny has a better chance than she does because Lip is just such a forgotten character at this point. She too new to be Retro and too old and obscure to be a main pick.


I mean, sure, I don't know what he'd do either. But that's irrelevant.

Too new to be a retro? She debuted barely three years after Sablé Prince, who is a retro. I think she can play the Retro card when Smash NX rolls by.

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of retro, what would one even define as a "retro rep"? I mean, hell, when ya think about it, the Ice Climbers were 16 years old when Melee was released, which is pretty much the same time span from Melee to now (feeling old yet?). And as for Lip, the time span between her game and Brawl was already 13 years, or taking the Smash 3DS version into account, 19 years. And that number only increases with each passing year.

Or we can talk about console generations instead. The Ice Climbers were from three generations prior Melee (NES -> SNES -> N64), and with the fact that each console only gets one Smash game, we can simply move that list forward by one. Meaning Lip, under those definitions, would've been retro by the time Brawl was released on the Wii.

The only thing that speaks against that is the fact that apparently only the NES counts as retro for Sakurai. That's actually one of the reasons I want to see Sakurai replaced, or at least not given full control over the next Smash Bros. It's not even about Lip in this case, but the entire way he handles the franchise. I won't deny that he is pretty creative when it comes to movesets (especially in the newer entries), but he's just so stubborn, narrow minded and hypocritical from time to time.

 

[Curious Villager]

Speaking of retro, what would one even define as a "retro rep"? I mean, hell, when ya think about it, the Ice Climbers were 16 years old when Melee was released, which is pretty much the same time span from Melee to now (feeling old yet?). And as for Lip, the time span between her game and Brawl was already 13 years, or taking the Smash 3DS version into account, 19 years. And that number only increases with each passing year.

Or we can talk about console generations instead. The Ice Climbers were from three generations prior Melee (NES -> SNES -> N64), and with the fact that each console only gets one Smash game, we can simply move that list forward by one. Meaning Lip, under those definitions, would've been retro by the time Brawl was released on the Wii.

The only thing that speaks against that is the fact that apparently only the NES counts as retro for Sakurai. That's actually one of the reasons I want to see Sakurai replaced, or at least not given full control over the next Smash Bros. It's not even about Lip in this case, but the entire way he handles the franchise. I won't deny that he is pretty creative when it comes to movesets (especially in the newer entries), but he's just so stubborn, narrow minded and hypocritical from time to time.

To be fair, I don't think it's just Sakurai. I think Nintendo as a whole treats "retro" as something that debuted on the NES (or Game Boy and Game & Watch on rare occasions). I mean from looking at series such as Pushmo, Picopict and Super Mario Maker, and they even have a whole franchise about it with the NES remix series.

It would be nice if Nintendo expanded their horizons a little more and looked back into some of the characters and series that debuted in the SNES and Game Boy Color at the very least though.

 

[N. Onymous]

A true retro rep to me would be a character whose series hasn't had a new game in over a decade. (I say "true" because I consider Pac-Man to be one due to his moveset, despite the Pac-Man franchise still being active.) Ice Climber was released in 1985, so the Ice Cllimbers were 16 years old at the time of Brawl's release. The last Game & Watch game was released in 1991, 10 years before Melee. Kid Icarus: Of Myths And Monsters was also 1991, 17 years before Brawl. R.O.B. was 23 years old at the time of Brawl's release. Duck Hunt was 30 at the time of the fourth game. Let's say Smash NX is released around 2021. If the pattern continues (and if no new Panel de Pon games are released between now and then), then Planet Puzzle League, as much as I hate to acknowledge its existence, will have been released 14 years before.

 

[JaidynReiman]

A true retro rep to me would be a character whose series hasn't had a new game in over a decade. (I say "true" because I consider Pac-Man to be one due to his moveset, despite the Pac-Man franchise still being active.) Ice Climber was released in 1985, so the Ice Cllimbers were 16 years old at the time of Brawl's release. The last Game & Watch game was released in 1991, 10 years before Melee. Kid Icarus: Of Myths And Monsters was also 1991, 17 years before Brawl. R.O.B. was 23 years old at the time of Brawl's release. Duck Hunt was 30 at the time of the fourth game. Let's say Smash NX is released around 2021. If the pattern continues (and if no new Panel de Pon games are released between now and then), then Planet Puzzle League, as much as I hate to acknowledge its existence, will have been released 14 years before.

I agree with this idea, but in general retro "reps" have only been used with characters who originated on the NES (or are as old or older than the NES, like Game and Watch).

That, and none of them have ever been exclusive to one region of the world.