Puzzle League/Panel De Pon General (Former SSB4 Lip Support Thread)

[N. Onymous]

On the other hand, I found out a while ago that Lip apparently didn't get very many votes during the fan polls this time around, even in Japan. Anything's possible, but...

 

[DMurr]

On the other hand, I found out a while ago that Lip apparently didn't get very many votes during the fan polls this time around, even in Japan. Anything's possible, but...

What fan polls? Do you have links to this?

 

[3Bismyname]

i am definately pro Lip for a character. but i wouldnt be surprised if she only got Assist Trophy status.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

i am definately pro Lip for a character. but i wouldnt be surprised if she only got Assist Trophy status.

Well this is something I'm expecting at best, taking account of 50/50 of favoring Lip has in means of Smash-chances. The amount of her cameos would lend her to at least get a boost to some kind of appearance, if we can predict Sakurai adding more of Puzzle League-references.

 

[N. Onymous]

Now that I think about it, Lip and Pit have had very similar representations in the Smash Bros. series:

• Both were considered for the first game, but were rejected as too obscure (Pit was specifically replaced with Jigglypuff).
  
• Both made minor appearances in Melee, as an item and trophy respectively.
  
• Pit was made a playable character in Brawl, while Furil and company appeared as stickers. (Of course, Lip's Stick was still around.)

Something to think about...

 

[3Bismyname]

totally pro Lip. she's actually my top retro character for SSB4

 

[N3ON]

Now that I think about it, Lip and Pit have had very similar representations in the Smash Bros. series:

• Both were considered for the first game, but were rejected as too obscure (Pit was specifically replaced with Jigglypuff).

Pit being planned for Smash 64 is an unconfirmed rumor. I've never heard about Lip being seriously considered for any of the Smash Bros. (that we know about). Source?

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Now that I think about it, Lip and Pit have had very similar representations in the Smash Bros. series:

• Both were considered for the first game, but were rejected as too obscure (Pit was specifically replaced with Jigglypuff).
  
• Both made minor appearances in Melee, as an item and trophy respectively.
  
• Pit was made a playable character in Brawl, while Furil and company appeared as stickers. (Of course, Lip's Stick was still around.)

Something to think about...

About that first part, Sakurai had said back in SSB64's days that he thought Lip was too obscure to be added (though seemingly liking the series she was from a lot).

Also what N30N said- Pit's inclusion in Bros is still uncomfirmed.

 

[MasterMushroom]

Also what N30N said- Pit's inclusion in Bros is still uncomfirmed.

Double checked my archived sources; it isn't true. Nowhere in the journal nor in the Q+A implied he was planned to be in SSB64; but there was indeed a fan that asked if Icarus could possibly be considered in a future Smash game if one was to be made. Likewise, other requests and questions within the Q+A asked Sakurai if he could have added characters like Lip, Ice Climbers, Mach Rider, and Balloon Fighter.

The only ones that were "planned" to be included since SSB64 (from Sakurai's words) were:

1)King Dedede - simply due to "Time constraints"

2)Sigurd - Simply due to "Time Constraints"

3) "Red" (Pokemon Trainer) - Due to limited hardware contraints. Specifically, being compatible with Sakurai's conceptualized moveset mechanic for Pokemon Trainer

4) Sukapon - Due to limited hardware constraints. With Sukapon, his problem was his floating limbs working properly in animation in relation to the Smash bros physics engine used


These characters were given the same excuse for Melee as well in response to the fans within the Q+A section. As we know now, 2 out of the 4 have made finally their official debuts recently. Which leaves Sigurd and Sukapon left.

Anywho, back on topic. I'd love to see Lip as well. Then again, she has competition with the likes of other "retro" period characters; so its all up in the air right now. Almost like a horse race waiting to happen

 

[FlareHabanero]

Also before anyone asks, Sigurd is referring to the main protagonist of Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War from the "First Generation" part of the game. The character also appears more recently in Fire Emblem: Awakening.

 

[Deleted member]

Bowser and Mewtwo were also planned. They are mentioned underneath the pre-Melee poll.

 

[MasterMushroom]

Also before anyone asks, Sigurd is referring to the main protagonist of Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War from the "First Generation" part of the game. The character also appears more recently in Fire Emblem: Awakening.

Bowser and Mewtwo were also planned. They are mentioned underneath the pre-Melee poll.

Thanks for mentioning that guys

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I'd rather have Celice than Sigurd, because he was the fella to do his dad's job to the end. I mean, this is like adding Eliwood instead of Roy to Smash! Or you can rather just play FE4's first half and call it a day enough to know how it is featured in Smash Bros. What?

Besides he got a DLC costume compared to his father who was just a spotpass guy. (-=´l-)

 

[Grimnir]

2)Sigurd - Simply due to "Time Constraints"

3) "Red" (Pokemon Trainer) - Due to limited hardware contraints. Specifically, being compatible with Sakurai's conceptualized moveset mechanic for Pokemon Trainer

Would you mind directing me to the source of these? I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this. I've gone through the journals (and was probably the first to provide translations way back in the day) and never saw anything about these two.

 

[Deleted member]

Would you mind directing me to the source of these? I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this. I've gone through the journals (and was probably the first to provide translations way back in the day) and never saw anything about these two.

While you're here, can you clear up the Wolf issue?

It was said that Wolf, like Dedede, Mewtwo, and Bowser (who have been confirmed on the pre-Melee poll that they were planned), was also planned.

 

[Grimnir]

While you're here, can you clear up the Wolf issue?

It was said that Wolf, like Dedede, Mewtwo, and Bowser (who have been confirmed on the pre-Melee poll that they were planned), was also planned.

Extremely unlikely.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/PostResult2.html

Here, it specifically names Bowser, Dedede and Mewtwo as being cut, and says nothing of Wolf

At the time, Wolf had only been in one game, and all we ever saw of him was his head. He didn't even have official art. Not only would they need to come up with an original move set, but they'd have to come up with a whole new design. I'd say it's safe to dismiss that rumour.

 

[Deleted member]

Of course it wouldn't mention Wolf; he's not on the Top 20 like the other 3 are. (Which does however, dismiss the idea that Peach was also planned, as she was on the Top 20, right under Bowser, but was not mentioned either.)

 

[Grimnir]

The bottom line is a character who had one appearance in a series which, while fairly popular at the time was certainly dwarfed by many others, who didn't even have a body or an easy move set to build on would have been extremely unlikely. Even if they were specifically aiming for including villains, Ganon(dorf) would have certainly gotten priority over a Star Fox villain, not to mention Wolf wasn't even the main villain in Star Fox 64, just an optional boss.

Of course, this is all conjecture on my part. We all know Sakurai has made some dumb decisions on picking characters. However, what I can tell you for sure is that nowhere, in the many, many pages of either the 64 or Melee questionnaires and journals, was Wolf mentioned in the context of being a possible playable character (if at all). Perhaps these elusive Famicom articles really exist, but I haven't seen them, and it's up to the person making the claim to provide proof of them.

 

[Deleted member]

I fail to see any "dumb" decisions to be quite frank.

EDIT: Well, in picking characters. Movesets are a different story. For example, there's no excuse for Captain Ganon in Brawl.

 

[Grimnir]

*sigh*

It's a subjective matter. Perhaps some people genuinely think that every single character Sakurai has ever added to Super Smash Bros. has been a great decision and that he can do no wrong in the area of character selection, but others like myself feel there were some characters who didn't deserve their spots. Again, purely opinion and I don't want to derail this thread any further.

At any rate, I think the matter on Wolf is settled, unless "cednym" wants to give any more information on these mysterious articles.

 

[Deleted member]

That's going to be quite difficult to do, as
a. he's not on this forum. The quote was from NeoGaF.
b. he outright states that he has lost the articles from Famitsu, and asks if anyone happens to have them to confirm his statement.

 

[Arcadenik]

The problem with Lip is that she doesn't look as angry as Kirby is.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

The problem with Lip is that she doesn't look as angry as Kirby is.

I think it's more of that she isn't willing to show angry face around like Kirby does for NOA. Europe though could just take her as she is.

Okay, that quote still made my day. But it reminded me of this epic animation about PdP's and Yoshi's crew going into a war against each other. (though the project got cancelled sadly)

Enjoy your Angry Lip Arcadenik.

 

[Grimnir]

That's going to be quite difficult to do, as
a. he's not on this forum. The quote was from NeoGaF.
b. he outright states that he has lost the articles from Famitsu, and asks if anyone happens to have them to confirm his statement.

...
It was clearly a rhetorical statement.

Out of apology for derailing this thread and getting back on the matter of Lip, I'll clear up a little matter in the original post.

The "interview" about Lip is really not an interview at all, so that's a bit misleading. It's just Sakurai's reply to a fan questionnaire. Here's the best translation I can give:

Fan:
"Personally, I wanted female characters such as the main Panel De Pon character Lip and the previously mentioned Julia"

Sakurai:
"Lip.
How many people are actually familiar with her?
But personally, I think Panel De Pon is a great masterpiece.
If only the people who don't know her would give her a chance"

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

...
The "interview" about Lip is really not an interview at all, so that's a bit misleading. It's just Sakurai's reply to a fan questionnaire. Here's the best translation I can give:

Fan:
"Personally, I wanted female characters such as the main Panel De Pon character Lip and the previously mentioned Julia"

Sakurai:
"Lip.
How many people are actually familiar with her?
But personally, I think Panel De Pon is a great masterpiece.
If only the people who don't know her would give her a chance"

I hope you're right with this because I might say I did what "Sakurai wished for" and here I am, supporting Lip and loving the hell out of her character and her game series!
I guess I'll go update the OP? But thanks so much for showing this, it actually sparked some of my dim enthutiasm to see Lip in Smash.

Sakurai though could help so much by adding her as a playable in the game since it doesn't really help to leave her on obscurity as long as NOA clipping her out is considered. Most of the people knowing her now are mostly Nintendo's longtime fans and also ones who loved to play Tetris Attack as a little. Or also many japanese game fanatics who tend to play translated japanese games.

 

[Big-Cat]

Extremely unlikely.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/PostResult2.html

Here, it specifically names Bowser, Dedede and Mewtwo as being cut, and says nothing of Wolf

At the time, Wolf had only been in one game, and all we ever saw of him was his head. He didn't even have official art. Not only would they need to come up with an original move set, but they'd have to come up with a whole new design. I'd say it's safe to dismiss that rumour.

Even so, that doesn't mean that he wasn't considered at some point of development, but that can be said for anything really. Though, you gotta admit that if the roster aesthetics were retained, Wolf would be the logical pick.

How would she play like?

​

Lip would be an aerial fighter's worst nightmare. Her stick's damage-racking sap powers and Garbage Block specials keep the opponent out in bay and she is balancedly well-controlled in both the ground and the air. As a result, this gives her an incredible edgeguarding and zoning game, making her one of the prime examples of a zoning character and a keepaway one too.

Another aspect on her playstyle would be about building the damage quickly to huge heights and then kill off her enemy with a stronger attack. Lip though has low KO-power, but her damage potential is obscenely huge, if not the biggest when compared to rest of the fighters. This reflects upon Panel De Pon's nature of racking chains in sequence to grow bigger garbage blocks to bury your opponent's block stack down. It would be also an evolved version of a playstyle adapted from Lip's Stick-item itself.

This sounds like an awful lot how I envisioned Lip in the old Smash 4 thread.

Also, PSYCHO BALL PSYCHO BALL PSYCHO BALL PSYCHO BALL PSYCHO BALL!

 

[Grimnir]

Even so, that doesn't mean that he wasn't considered at some point of development, but that can be said for anything really. Though, you gotta admit that if the roster aesthetics were retained, Wolf would be the logical pick.

You should probably read the thread before making pointless replies like this. As I said, it was merely my personal conjecture. The question was not whether Wolf was ever considered, but rather, if like the other three characters mentioned, he was planned to be in the game. My answer was that there is zero proof of this anywhere on the internet.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

It's because I took it from your PM Kuma, I think I remember we once discussed about Lip before. Thought I'd bring it out. (-l<>l-);

 

[MasterMushroom]

It's because I took it from your PM Kuma, I think I remember we once discussed about Lip before. Thought I'd bring it out. (-l<>l-);

Oh man, I just realized something of potential with Lip's inclusion in the roster. Sorry if I'm a slowpoke/if this has been mentioned or thought of

Spoiler

What if Lip's included and the whole "Adventure" mode concept we've discussed in the other thread became true (with the whole unique story lines/branching paths). With me so far? Good. You're playing Lip and along the way; you potentially team up with the likes of

Spoiler

Ashley, Tingle, and/or Ness/Lucas

Heck; let's add Pit in there with customized codecs with Platuna in facing Lip. He could accidentally end up talking to

Spoiler

Lip's mom, Cordelia

or rather have Platuna end up getting interrupted by her in the codec

The character interaction would be pretty amusing in my opinion

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Interesting on the Sakurai part. I have no problem with cute characters at all since most of them can prove how deadly they are (Kirby, Arle Nadja, Klonoa, ect.). America is just caught up on how hardcore and manly many gamers should be,

Spoiler

especially Crap of Duty.

She would be a perfect obscure character to represent the Super NES/Super Famicom era of Nintendo's history and their puzzle genre.Meaning, she is considered as rather important female inclusion (though no where as much as Palutena and a few others.) Smash needs a loli,

Spoiler

Though, I'm really not into that sort of thing

, which adds more variety among the female fighters. This is coming from a fellow puzzle gamer.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Heck; let's add Pit in there with customized codecs with Platuna in facing Lip. He could accidentally end up talking to

Spoiler

Lip's mom, Cordelia

or rather have Platuna end up getting interrupted by her in the codec

The character interaction would be pretty amusing in my opinion

Hehee, the thing is that I actually had done a codec for Lip

Spoiler

which has Pit discussing with Cordelia, actually:

[COLLAPSE="Lip by Young Horsetail"]

Pit: Lady Palutena?
Cordelia: Hello there little angel.
Pit: Woah! Who're you?! You're no Palutena...
Cordelia: I might not be, but I'm her friend from distant lands of Popples. I'm Cordelia, the Goddess of the Fairies.
Pit: Okay, at least you don't seem sort of evil lady... though you somehow give a bit of that vibe. Sorry for that. So do you have anything to say about Lip?
Cordelia: She's quite confident and tomboyish girl, and the wand she uses is the source of her power, and her most valued thing. The powers of plant life are in her command, so do watch out if you see them. Though the fact that she hadn't found herself yet accepting as the new queen worries me.
Pit: Queen...? I didn't expect you to know so much about her.
Cordelia: It's because I'm her mother. *Fufufu*
Pit: M-m-m-mother?! You're her MOTHER!? No wonder! You really know your daughter. So about Lip, you hope she'll become as great as you did?
Cordelia: I hope for so too. I have faith on her. Please, do support her. She needs it in her way to take my place.
Pit: I... I will.
[/COLLAPSE]

I had made a headcanon where Cordelia can be seen as even more "trolling" than Palutena, at least enough to the point where Pit can see Palutena has met her match when it comes to trolling, hahah-

But I agree, I bet it'd be pretty sweet. I'mq quite interested on how she'll react to the Pikmin.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Tidbits like sales details on PDP-series and review details about Puzzle League DS added. Also Chrono's moveset. Thanks Chrono for all these!

[collapse=Reviewer Tidbits]Some observations on how the latest Panel de Pon (Planet Puzzle League/Panel de Pon DS) was received in Japan:
Apparently, the Japanese were very bitter (and some furious) about Panel de Pon DS.

They all asked: "Where's the cute?" (no literally, many of them said this). With one even saying the game had "no ounce of cuteness".

Most Panel de Pon fans were angry with the removal of the fairies and game having "no soul no feelings." Another reviewer called it "boring."

Since the developers at Intelligent Systems can actually read these reviews, perhaps they will contemplate making Lip and the fairies the stars of the next Panel de Pon they make.

If Intelligent Systems does plan to re-introduce Lip to the series (as what most of the Japanese fans want), then what better way to make her comeback than through Smash Bros. =) A brand new Lip would easily become one of the most popular newcomers despite very few outside Japan knowing who she is.

Here is the link to the Japanese reviews of Panel de Pon DS:

http://www.amazon.co.jp/任天堂-13306191-パネルでポンDS/dp/B000NOLWDC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316900515&sr=8-1

Credit goes to Snakey for finding this and highlighting the most noteworthy points in the reviews.
This goes to show that Lip and the fairies truly are loved and appreciated in Japan.
[/collapse]

It quite suprises me to see all this. Most people who oppose Lip says she's unimportant to her series, but reviewers in Japan seems to miss the cute fairy theme for the series and really love the character.

Something else interesting is that Panel De Pon DS actually sold more than other C-List series in Japan.

[collapse=PdP Series Sales]Panel de Pon series sales:
Nintendo Puzzle Collection: 110K
Dr. Mario & Panel de Pon (Dr.Mario/Puzzle League): 89K
Panel de Pon DS (Planet Puzzle League): 143K

Source for Nintendo Puzzle Collection sales: http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Famitsu_2003_video_game_sales
Source for Dr. Mario & Panel de Pon sales: http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Famitsu_2005_video_game_sales
Source for Panel de Pon DS sales: http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Famitsu_2007_video_game_sales

[/collapse]

 

[Gene]

Hehee, the thing is that I actually had done a codec for Lip

Spoiler

which has Pit discussing with Cordelia, actually:

[COLLAPSE="Lip by Young Horsetail"]

Pit: Lady Palutena?
Cordelia: Hello there little angel.
Pit: Woah! Who're you?! You're no Palutena...
Cordelia: I might not be, but I'm her friend from distant lands of Popples. I'm Cordelia, the Goddess of the Fairies.
Pit: Okay, at least you don't seem sort of evil lady... though you somehow give a bit of that vibe. Sorry for that. So do you have anything to say about Lip?
Cordelia: She's quite confident and tomboyish girl, and the wand she uses is the source of her power, and her most valued thing. The powers of plant life are in her command, so do watch out if you see them. Though the fact that she hadn't found herself yet accepting as the new queen worries me.
Pit: Queen...? I didn't expect you to know so much about her.
Cordelia: It's because I'm her mother. *Fufufu*
Pit: M-m-m-mother?! You're her MOTHER!? No wonder! You really know your daughter. So about Lip, you hope she'll become as great as you did?
Cordelia: I hope for so too. I have faith on her. Please, do support her. She needs it in her way to take my place.
Pit: I... I will.
[/COLLAPSE]

I had made a headcanon where Cordelia can be seen as even more "trolling" than Palutena, at least enough to the point where Pit can see Palutena has met her match when it comes to trolling, hahah-

But I agree, I bet it'd be pretty sweet. I'mq quite interested on how she'll react to the Pikmin.

I am a servant to the goddess lady Trollutena!

 

[N. Onymous]

Well, looks like Intelligent Systems' PdP site shut down today... it's just giving me a 404 error when I try to access it. Probably not a good sign.

 

[Curious Villager]

I honestly don't think it means much in regards to Lip and smash Bros honestly... :/

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Aww maaan! Why did they even do that? I wonder though really, why did they?

I noticed the general game-section for I.S's official site which PDP's site was linked to is gone too.

I'll go fectht all the official art from the site I can get.

 

[ChronoBound]

Well, looks like Intelligent Systems' PdP site shut down today... it's just giving me a 404 error when I try to access it. Probably not a good sign.

That site had been on up since 1995 or 1996 and a had even a small community on the bulletin board.

The site being taken down does not inspire confidence to me for the future of the Panel de Pon series. Though there is a small chance they took it down because it looked a bit dated (like I said it started back in 1996, I think), or they are planning a major new Panel de Pon release and making a modern website for that.

However, I think its more likely that they decided to just take it down because nothing is being done with the series. The last Panel de Pon game was release in 2007 (though a stipped down port of that game was released for the DSi in 2009).

Typically since the Super Famicom there has been at least one Panel de Pon game released for a Nintendo console since its Super Famicom debut:

Super Famicom/Super Nintendo: Panel de Pon/Tetris Attack
Game Boy: Yoshi's Panel de Pon/Tetris Attack
Nintendo 64: Pokemon Puzzle League
Game Boy Color: Pokemon Puzzle Challenge
Nintendo GameCube: Nintendo Puzzle Collection
Game Boy Advance: Dr Mario & Panel de Pon
Nintendo DS: Planet Puzzle League/Panel de Pon DS (Puzzle League Express for DSi)

There was no new Panel de Pon game released for the Wii, and so far no new game released for the 3DS (which imo represents the last chance for a retail Panel de Pon game to be released).

I think it would be for the best to wait until E3 to find out what is happening to this series (like I said, if a new game is happening it will most likely be for the 3DS or a downloadable title for Wii U or 3DS like Pushmo and Crashmo). However, I am not optimistic.

Nintendo has let so many of their smaller series (Golden Sun, Starfy, Custom Robo, Panel de Pon, Famicom Wars/Advance Wars) basically die out over the course of this generation.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I don't really want to think they basically let those series die out: otherwise the 2nd parties in Nintendo wouldn't have much to do with them. I think they're just in a hiatus: not every series in Nintendo that was popular has proven to be successful these years too (I mean, compared overall fan reception of Luigi's Mansion 2 to some 3DS Mario-games in recent years.) and if they keep becoming stale, things can get ugly. And since Nintendo's not been too keen on creating new IPs lately, they could try revisiting series they have left behind or in a hiatus.

I.S also just concentrating on Fire Emblem and Paper Mario (and maybe Pushmo/Crashmo) would be kinda sad and even if polarizing their success to series that are just seen in Smash Bros. Unless Smash Bros is just becoming a marketing tool rather than a fighting game. As a Puzzle League-fan I'd be quite saddened and disappointed beyond belief and I bet same would go for Advance Wars/Famicom Wars-fans.

I don't expect any announcements regarding Panel De Pon on E3 though.

 

[FlareHabanero]

So, there is gimmick I was thinking about involving combos for Lip. Basically combos would increase Lip's power with each consecutive hit, about an extra 10% with every successful hit after the first one capping at 200%. Some moves like Garbage Block would also gain additional attributes like larger size or faster speeds. The catch though would be that it restarts every time an attack fails to execute, ether from missing or blocking. This mechanic would be a reference to the mechanic in varies puzzle games like Panel de Pon, where combos granted you the ability to inflict damage with higher combos inflicting more havoc.

Thoughts?

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I dunno if that would work out well: This would potentially make her OP with hands of a very lethal and experienced player. Unless this would be less pronounced (maybe 10% increase after every 4 or 6-hit combo), I don't think it'd pose a very good playstyle design for Lip. (LIP4TOPTIER)

But it could maybe make sense incase Lip's a weak character in means of inflicting any damage. But for that I thought of her being a poisonous-like trapper character who's fast in racking damage and keep her enemies at bay while doing so.

This also reminds me of complaining about why Squirtle had the shades from the anime as an easter egg in Project M which break in the first hit inflicted to him, but in a much overpowered manner. (-l´l);

BTW, I'm completely amused why I haven't yet posted THIS here. This was a contest picture I worked with my sister back 2 years ago for a Smash Bros-contest in Nintendo FC-club in Deviantart:

[collapse=Smash Newcomer: Lip]

[/collapse]

Might go put it in the OP soon.