Puzzle League/Panel De Pon General (Former SSB4 Lip Support Thread)

[Jhonnykiller45]

^ Don't double post.

 

[N3ON]

On a related note, I stopped by the GameFAQs Sm4sh forums on a whim, and... well. The level of anti-Lip sentiments I found from the people there could probably be described as unprecedented. There were several supporters, which was nice to see - but then I found a topic that was pretty much beaten into the ground by Lip-haters parroting the exact same "Too obscure!"/"Pedo bait!" arguments we've all seen before.

It was kind of heartbreaking, honestly.

Yeah, GameFAQs likes to bandwagon for or against a character almost randomly, and while granted, Lips's chances aren't very good, I wouldn't put too much stock in what most of GameFAQs has to say.

As for reasons such as too obscure/Japan-only/not very popular, I think they do have some merit, those probably are some of the main reasons Lip wouldn't be included, but "pedo bait" is one of the most ridiculous and worst excuses ever against a character. Like Horsetail already said, there would be plenty of ways to work around that, mainly a minor or major redesign. Also, I very very much doubt Sakurai would use potential pedo bait as a reason against her. And lastly, I doubt looking up the skirt of a fictional computer generated video game character would actually cause or encourage anymore pedophilia than already exists.

So if anyone ever uses that as an excuse against any potential Smash candidate, I'd just ignore it. It's worse than Ridley's too big arguments.

^ Don't double post.

Double posting isn't that bad when there's two days between posts.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Lip is too young for Smash. This game's rated T. Now, whether that means "Teen" or "Testosterone" doesn't matter, because Lip clearly has no place in either case.

It's fun to be wrong sometimes.

 

[jigglover]

As for reasons such as too obscure/Japan-only/not very popular.

Just like to say Jigglypuff, Lucas and Marth/Roy respectively

 

[N3ON]

Just like to say Jigglypuff, Lucas and Marth/Roy respectively

First off, Jigglypuff is neither obscure, nor Japanese-only, nor unpopular (especially in 1999 when she was included). So I don't know why you listed her.

Also, having just one or two of those traits isn't necessarily a deterrent. It's when you're obscure, Japan-only, and not very popular (like Lip) do chances for inclusion start to greatly diminish.

Secondly, none of these characters are obscure. While Lip is more well-known in Japan than elsewhere, compared to Marth and Lucas pre-inclusion, and candidates such as Takamaru, she is obscure. Being Japan-only doesn't necessarily mean they are obscure either, especially in Japan. It's true that Marth and Roy were obscure to westerners, which is why Sakurai wasn't planning on including them in overseas versions of Melee. However, in Japan Marth had massive popularity and was the most requested FE character for Smash. During localization and testing, both FE characters gained alot of popularity as well, so they cannot be considered unpopular, nor obscure, as their series was doing strongly in Japan.

Lucas, having appeared in a recent game from a ridiculously popular series in Japan and a huge cult following outside Japan, was neither obscure nor unpopular.

And granted, those three were all Japan-only characters, but being Japan-only doesn't greatly diminish your chances if you are still popular and requested. Sure, Sakurai tries not to focus on Japanese-only characters, but problems in likelihood only arise if that Japan-only character is also quite obscure and/or unpopular. IIRC Lip hasn't appeared outside ports and Captain Rainbow for quite a while, and is barely requested even in Japan. Coupled with being Japan-only, that's when the "too obscure/Japan-only/unpopular" reasons start to have merit.

 

[jigglover]

I said them one by one, that's why I said respectively at the end. That means that Jigglypuff was obscure (she was it was her or the other 150 pokemon to choose from), Lucas was Japan-only and I thought that Marth/Roy were unpopular even in Japan pre-melee, but they definately were in the west, north, south and other parts of the east

 

[N3ON]

I said them one by one, that's why I said respectively at the end. That means that Jigglypuff was obscure (she was it was her or the other 150 pokemon to choose from), Lucas was Japan-only and I thought that Marth/Roy were unpopular even in Japan pre-melee, but they definately were in the west, north, south and other parts of the east

Oh, I assumed you were using the word incorrectly because Jigglypuff was/is not obscure (not only was she one of the most popular Pokemon back then, all 151 were anything but obscure in 1999), I can't argue about Lucas being Japan-only, and Marth was very popular in Japan during the time of Melee. And granted, he was originally planned to only be released in the region he had popularity, but gained popularity in the other regions before he was even released there (so did Roy).

But like I said above, those reasons only start to have an larger effect when two or all three apply to a character, and the most you can attribute to three of those four is Japan-only. None of them were unpopular or obscure before their inclusion on the same levels that G&W, Ice Climbers, and ROB were (who weren't Japan-only, but would've been better examples).

 

[jigglover]

Oh, I assumed you were using the word incorrectly because Jigglypuff was/is not obscure (not only was she one of the most popular Pokemon back then, all 151 were anything but obscure in 1999), I can't argue about Lucas being Japan-only, and Marth was very popular in Japan during the time of Melee. And granted, he was originally planned to only be released in the region he had popularity, but gained popularity in the other regions before he was even released there (so did Roy).

But like I said above, those reasons only start to have an larger effect when two or all three apply to a character, and the most you can attribute to three of those four is Japan-only. None of them were unpopular or obscure before their inclusion on the same levels that G&W, Ice Climbers, and ROB were (who weren't Japan-only, but would've been better examples).

Good points there.
Also like to say that Pikachu was pretty much sure to get in so he wasn't obscure in the 151. Mew was obscure in it's own series, since he was actually a gen 2 pokemon, but it was the very first one. One producer thought it would be really good to slip in the coding of Mew as a 'secret' pokemon only a month or two prior to the game's release, since there might not have been a gen 2 if the games were received poorly, and he really like the Pokemon. Another producer found it a few days later and decided to put in Mewtwo, it's supposed partner in Cerulean cave, where it was planned to be in the gold and silver games. Anyway... I have no idea why I just typed that but... I did so there...
Anyway... wouldn't two of your reasons apply to ice climbers N3on? Obscure and unpopular?

 

[N3ON]

Good points there.
Also like to say that Pikachu was pretty much sure to get in so he wasn't obscure in the 151. Mew was obscure in it's own series, since he was actually a gen 2 pokemon, but it was the very first one. One producer thought it would be really good to slip in the coding of Mew as a 'secret' pokemon only a month or two prior to the game's release, since there might not have been a gen 2 if the games were received poorly, and he really like the Pokemon. Another producer found it a few days later and decided to put in Mewtwo, it's supposed partner in Cerulean cave, where it was planned to be in the gold and silver games. Anyway... I have no idea why I just typed that but... I did so there...
Anyway... wouldn't two of your reasons apply to ice climbers N3on? Obscure and unpopular?

You're right, Pikachu was pretty much guaranteed the Pokemon spot, though that's pretty obvious. It's like Mario being guaranteed for the Mario spot, or Link being guaranteed for the Zelda spot. However, in 1999 NONE of the 151 were obscure, not even Mew (by then Mew had been found out -- otherwise it wouldn't have been in Smash 64). Nowadays, NONE of the 649 Pokemon are obscure. Obscure isn't the same thing as unpopular, while there might be unpopular Pokemon, due to constant Pokemon games featuring all 649, none are obscure. Obscure characters are those seen very rarely and haven't been seen for a long time, as well as not having much popularity, such as Diskun, Sheriff, Stanley the Bugman. Even older popular characters like Mach Rider and Balloon Fighter aren't that obscure because they still have remaining popularity. Popularity and constant appearances bring characters out of the obscure.

As for Mew, no it is not a 2nd gen, I don't know where you heard that. Any Pokemon in G/R/B/Y is a 1st gen, including Mew. It's true that Mew was added to the game without the knowledge of many people involved, but not because he was supposed to be 2nd gen. Plus by your logic, Mewtwo would have to be created and added to the game in less than two months before release, which also isn't true.

And as for the Ice Climbers, yes, I think they fit into the category of both obscure and not particularly popular, which is why they weren't Sakurai's first choice for the retro character (I think they were like his sixth), and why nobody was really expecting them. However, just because they were unpopular and unexpected doesn't mean they were impossible, they were just unlikely. I don't think Lip (or most other characters that are two or three of those) is impossible, just very unlikely.

 

[jigglover]

You're right, Pikachu was pretty much guaranteed the Pokemon spot, though that's pretty obvious. It's like Mario being guaranteed for the Mario spot, or Link being guaranteed for the Zelda spot. However, in 1999 NONE of the 151 were obscure, not even Mew (by then Mew had been found out -- otherwise it wouldn't have been in Smash 64). Nowadays, NONE of the 649 Pokemon are obscure. Obscure isn't the same thing as unpopular, while there might be unpopular Pokemon, due to constant Pokemon games featuring all 649, none are obscure. Obscure characters are those seen very rarely and haven't been seen for a long time, as well as not having much popularity, such as Diskun, Sheriff, Stanley the Bugman. Even older popular characters like Mach Rider and Balloon Fighter aren't that obscure because they still have remaining popularity. Popularity and constant appearances bring characters out of the obscure.

As for Mew, no it is not a 2nd gen, I don't know where you heard that. Any Pokemon in G/R/B/Y is a 1st gen, including Mew. It's true that Mew was added to the game without the knowledge of many people involved, but not because he was supposed to be 2nd gen. Plus by your logic, Mewtwo would have to be created and added to the game in less than two months before release, which also isn't true.

And as for the Ice Climbers, yes, I think they fit into the category of both obscure and not particularly popular, which is why they weren't Sakurai's first choice for the retro character (I think they were like his sixth), and why nobody was really expecting them. However, just because they were unpopular and unexpected doesn't mean they were impossible, they were just unlikely. I don't think Lip (or most other characters that are two or three of those) is impossible, just very unlikely.

In regards to Mew, I meant to put he was actually planned to be a gen 2 Pokemon, and Mewtwo was going to be gen 2 too, but that could have been completely false, I don't know. And yeah, everything else pretty much makes a lot of sense.

 

[N. Onymous]

Technically, popularity shouldn't be an automatic no-go either. Before Brawl came out, only die-hard Nintendo aficionados really knew who Pit was considering he was only in two games (and Japan didn't even get that much). Lip's still got a pretty good chance, IMO.

 

[N3ON]

Technically, popularity shouldn't be an automatic no-go either. Before Brawl came out, only die-hard Nintendo aficionados really knew who Pit was considering he was only in two games (and Japan didn't even get that much). Lip's still got a pretty good chance, IMO.

Yeah, retro characters in general have less popularity than most of the other candidates, but compared to other retro characters such as Takamaru, Mach Rider, Sukapon (mostly in Japan), and even Balloon Fighter, Lip still doesn't have much popularity, plus three of those four have also seen international release. And I don't think Lip's minimal popularity makes her an automatic no-go, I just think that there are other retro characters with better chances.

As for Pit, more people knew who he was pre-Brawl than they did Lip, and he was more popular (although I don't know what his Japanese popularity was pre-Brawl, I didn't follow it then).

Plus Sakurai's recent statements about reviving another old character seem to hint it would be a character whose series could be expanded upon, such as Takamaru or Mach Rider. While I suppose a few new modes could be added to Lip's series, it really doesn't lend itself to a Kid Icarus-style revival, which is what I think Sakurai was talking about. Plus Lip's series isn't dormant, she just doesn't appear in it anymore, so it isn't in need of a revival, which is why I think Sakurai was talking about another character in his statement.

 

[N. Onymous]

There's plenty to expand upon in the PdP world, though. All Nintendo would have to do is make an RPG-styled game with the characters (maybe using Puzzle League gameplay for the battle system?).

 

[N3ON]

There's plenty to expand upon in the PdP world, though. All Nintendo would have to do is make an RPG-styled game with the characters.

I'd say that was a bit of a stretch in likelihood, and Nintendo already has RPGs that are fairly profitable, I doubt they would turn an old puzzle series into one.

Plus that logic of genre-changing could also apply to alot of other retro candidates, which would make them all viable for revival, which would again not make Lip stand out from her competitors.

 

[N. Onymous]

I edited my post to clarify what I meant a little.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

There's plenty to expand upon in the PdP world, though. All Nintendo would have to do is make an RPG-styled game with the characters (maybe using Puzzle League gameplay for the battle system?).

I don't think that is really is needed. Some german was actually doing a RPQ fangame for PDP, but I don't really think Lip needs a revival, she just needs to appear in a PDP-game which can be localised without her being clipped for no good reason. Besides I would indeed lean more on Takamaru or Mach Rider getting a retro revival instead of Lip because Lip doesn't really need her world to be expanded that much. Who it could be targeted at anyway because I dunno if a revival game having fairies would sell well in America? (-l3l-);
Japan-only at it's best, maybe.

 

[N. Onymous]

An effective marketing campaign can work wonders. You probably would have said the same thing about Kirby if he had this much trouble coming to America. :3

 

[DMurr]

Well there's a difference between a seemingly ambiguous gendered, but actually male pink blob and a little fairy girl. I don't think good enough marketing would make the game profitable in the west. Lip isn't "hardcore" enough.

 

[N. Onymous]

If all else fails, market it to a more casual audience or to female players. Most hardcore gamers aren't interested in puzzle games, anyway.

 

[Oasis_S]

Was always curious why Nintendo chose to have Panel de Pon in such a HYPERFEMININE setting in the first place. Were they specifically trying to market a puzzle game for young girls?

Bronies maybe?

 

[Opossum]

If they did, they were 15 years early...

 

[Oasis_S]

If they did, they were 15 years early...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_little_pony

"1983-present"

"1983"

"1983"

YOU CALL YOURSELF A FAN.

 

[Opossum]

A fan of G4, like most bronies. Not G1.


But on the actual topic, an RPG would be interesting, but I don't honestly see Lip as any more than a Puzzle character.

 

[N. Onymous]

That shouldn't hurt her chances of getting into Sm4sh though, considering Dr. Mario was in Melee.

Was always curious why Nintendo chose to have Panel de Pon in such a HYPERFEMININE setting in the first place. Were they specifically trying to market a puzzle game for young girls?

The thing about Japan is, they love cute things, ergo making Panel de Pon one of the most adorable things most of us have ever seen was a good marketing decision over there.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_little_pony

"1983-present"

"1983"

"1983"

YOU CALL YOURSELF A FAN.

You know Oaster, I WONDER IF JAPANESE HAD ANY "BRONIES" TOO. But I think they went with that hyperfeminine attire because of two things which were dead popular back then: Puyo Puyo and Sailor Moon.

 

[Opossum]

Oh, I'm not saying it will, trust me. I meant that if she was revived, I can only see her being revived through puzzles.


@Young Horsetail (hah, that's funny in retrospect due to the nature of this reply...): They have a small group of Japanese bronies, but they're mainly isolated to the US and Canada./Off-topic-but-worth-mentioning

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Opossum: That's what I mean too. I can't really imagine her in some other genre myself. (-l.l-);

 

[Oasis_S]

You know Oaster, I WONDER IF JAPANESE HAD ANY "BRONIES" TOO. But I think they went with that hyperfeminine attire because of two things which were dead popular back then: Puyo Puyo and Sailor Moon.

YOU KNOW WHAT. You are totally right. Seems so obvious now...

And now it makes even more sense why she should play like a "magical girl" character in the same way Captain Falcon is inspired by Kamen Rider.

 

[N. Onymous]

edit: never mind

I've been thinking about making my own Lip moveset, actually. More stuff for the front post, you know.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I was under the impression that were Lip chosen for inclusion it wouldn't be to represent "retro" games, but the Puzzle game side of Nintendo instead. Things like hugging a Dr. Mario Virus for a victory screen pose and the like.

 

[N. Onymous]

Maybe a few brief cameos from other puzzle series in win-poses and taunts and the like, but no more than that. Putting a Virus or pill or Yoshi cookie in her actual moveset would, to me, feel sort of shoehorned-in and awkward.

 

[N. Onymous]

On a related note, if Lip appeared in the playable roster, would that mean we'd get additional PdP character as Assist Trophies? That would be cool to see.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Maybe a few brief cameos from other puzzle series in win-poses and taunts and the like, but no more than that. Putting a Virus or pill or Yoshi cookie in her actual moveset would, to me, feel sort of shoehorned-in and awkward.

No more than Kirby turning into a Thwomp and Garbage Block is.

 

[Deleted member]

No more than Kirby turning into a Thwomp and Garbage Block is.

Except that him turning into those is a reference to Kirby Super Star, where he would turn into different random things with the Stone ability.
While he hasn't turned specifically into the Thwomp or a garbage block (or maybe he has) prior to Melee, they aren't more farfecthed than say, a gold statue of Samus or Mario.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I mean to say, small cameos are not out of the question or foreign to the series.

Like, if Lip had a move that summoned a block that went flying out in one of the 8 main directions after shaking, depending on which direction was held when starting the move, it could be any of the Panel de Pon blocks, a garbage block, a virus, Tetrad, etc., all being merely an aesthetic difference.

 

[N. Onymous]

Probably not a Tetrad. As far as I know, the only copyright Nintendo has on the Tetris series is the music that's been composed/remixed for it (hence Korobeiniki appearing as music in Brawl).

As long as the cameos in her attacks are aesthetic and not directly derived from other puzzle games, though, I can't see myself having a problem with it.

 

[Ferio_Kun]

I FULLY support Lip for Smash 4!!!

 

[N. Onymous]

Made a little sig thingy for my fellow Lip supporters. Couldn't get the transparency to work, but it's still functional:

Paste into sig:

[url=http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=324269][img]http://i.imgur.com/Sw19D.png[/img][/url]

 

[Vyzor]

I got VERY excited seeing this thread :3 I could not agree more for the inclusion of Lip. I have thought for the longest time that Lip should be a playable character. There's not enough female characters and like you said, she is a nice obscure Nintendo character.

Oh, and not to mention Kirby's down B references Panel de Pon, Lip's Stick is an item, Lip's theme is a song in Brawl. Sakurai might have a soft spot for Panel De Pon and throw her in as a playable character. That would be awesome.

 

[N. Onymous]

Sakurai might have a soft spot for Panel De Pon and throw her in as a playable character. That would be awesome.

According to the first post, he does actually like the series and was considering putting Lip in as early as SSB64. The reason he didn't was because he thought she was too obscure.

There's still hope, though, considering the increasing level of representation PDP has been getting.