Punish Me! (ZSS)

[DanGR]

I'll have a daily situation, and your job is to tell me the best ways to punish what I'm doing. If it's not punishable, try to give ways to avoid the situation or get in a better position. Try to give details, to encourage conversation.

Today's situation:

I'm dead sexy. I'm ZSS. I like to spam my sideb while SHing away when you go for the grab after latching onto me. You can't get the grab to rack up damage! What do you do?

Previous: (beginning with most recent)

-I'm the best character in the game, Metaknight. I just shoved you off the stage with fair. You DI-ed upwards so you can recover from above. I landed to get back my jumps. I jump up at you while you're high in the air, and I'm spamming my upair at you. What do you do?(pg 4-5)

-I'm Zelda. You've just beaten me and I counter picked FD for some strange reason. You've just been shoved into the air with upsmash. You're probably wondering how to DI out of her upsmash the next time around. You're also worried that you can't get to the ground because her upsmash is just too good. How do you react?(pg 4-4)

-I'm Olimar! It's a ditto match. My pikmin throwing is superior to yours b/c I'm a robot and I'm programmed to be better than you at throwing them. O_o Anyways, I see that you have three pikmin on you and...
1.)I'm attempting to grab you, use SHfairs, and use SHnairs.
2.)I've finally grabbed you at 0%. What do you do? (pg4-4)

-I'm Charizard. I'm abusing my flamethrower as an approach. (It's got less lag than bowser's, so some things that work on him may not work on charizard.) I'm also using rock smash as another one of my approaches. You've also been pushed to the edge of the stage, where you can't back up. (pg 3-3)

-I'm the Ice Climbers. Ive got my chaingrabs and desynching skill down to the wire. I'm approaching via alternating SHblizzards (downb). Also, I'm using alternating squall hammers (sideb) to inch at you. These are two of my best approaches. In both situations, you can't grab either one, or the other will hit you.(pg 2-3)

-I'm Yoshi, and I'm using a wall of bairs. To mix it up, I'll bair (through to your other side)>dtilt or ftilt. If you attempt to shield the bair, I'll either restart the bair>dtilt, ftilt approach or I'll try to pivot grab your shield. (pg 2)

-I'm Marth, and I'm using a wall of fairs as an approach. I'm using a rising forward fair and then using a retreating fair as I fall. It's followed up by dancing blade 50% of the time. I'll mix it up by using running DBs, and dtilt.(usual Marth stuff) (pg 1)

 

[stoopdklutz]

.... Shielding, spot-dodging, and grabbing out of them?

 

[Kabuto Mushi]

.... Shielding, spot-dodging, and grabbing out of them?

Cool topic idea Dangr... I'd say similar stuff to above... As far as pikmin throw goes, toss whites and purples, and save everything else for smashes/attacks (A good general strategy, but IMO important against Oli's threats). The usual Dthrow > Upsmash combo, I find, Marths catch on pretty quick to. They then resort to Dairing you as you run underneath to Smash... Stick to Dthrow>Fair/Nair or Dthrow>UpB in the beggining.

If you find yourself in a pinch (like getting WoP'd by Marth's repeated Fairs) you can wac his next one and counter with a Dsmash to get your space back...

 

[asob4]

hmmm
try to spot dodge the fairs and attempt to punish the little lag with an fsmash
if you >b then i would try to shield the whole thing and grab into a combo
vB would always fail as i try to grab after fairs when possible.
roll around or away from dtilt and WAC/spot dodge the predictable fsmash after

 

[DarkStraw]

Super easy, marth is moving forward with every move he does, not to mention he's in the air alot. roll behind him and smash. this is what i usually do when marth does dancing blade alot, or fsmashes alot, or fairs alot.... really it seems to work pretty good when he's spamming period. If he starts downsmashing you can start spotdoging it, since its ones of his laggier moves. Rolling behind fsmash works really well, and same goes for dancing blade, its laggy you will have plenty of time to punish him while his move winds down. i suggest random rolling behind marth just to keep him on his toes.

Also i think shield fair and fsmash out of shield might work, dunno. Olimars tilts seem to work well vs marth, forward tilt etc.

jump towards him and airdoge in, then jab.

Up+b him in the face! (this is for spaming fair)

Slowly walk away from him and fsmash after he does his fair, anotherwords space him (i know this works if marth dosent do a retreating fair, havent tested it on a marth that does retreating fairs)

dash away and pivot grab when he lands? (havent tried this one either)

maby for another topic after this one is done is luigi spamming downb, im able to grab him sometimes but i think its only in the early startup that it works, it eats fsmash for breakfast. It clanks with downtilt, but that dosent really help you punish it. its usually hard to grab (although ive heard its easyer to grab offline but i dunno)

 

[Kabuto Mushi]

Super easy, marth is moving forward with every move he does, not to mention he's in the air alot. roll behind him and smash. this is what i usually do when marth does dancing blade alot, or fsmashes alot, or fairs alot.... really it seems to work pretty good when he's spamming period. If he starts downsmashing you can start spotdoging it, since its ones of his laggier moves. Rolling behind fsmash works really well, and same goes for dancing blade, its laggy you will have plenty of time to punish him while his move winds down. i suggest random rolling behind marth just to keep him on his toes.

Also i think shield fair and fsmash out of shield might work, dunno. Olimars tilts seem to work well vs marth, forward tilt etc.

jump towards him and airdoge in, then jab.

Up+b him in the face! (this is for spaming fair)

Slowly walk away from him and fsmash after he does his fair, anotherwords space him (i know this works if marth dosent do a retreating fair, havent tested it on a marth that does retreating fairs)

dash away and pivot grab when he lands? (havent tried this one either)

maby for another topic after this one is done is luigi spamming downb, im able to grab him sometimes but i think its only in the early startup that it works, it eats fsmash for breakfast. It clanks with downtilt, but that dosent really help you punish it. its usually hard to grab (although ive heard its easyer to grab offline but i dunno)

Mm'kay, it is NOT AT ALL eaisier to grab offline. xD

Especially the really good ones who start it up diagonally and above Oli Upsmashing. Gets me everytime. >.<

 

[OlimarFan]

Cool topic idea Dangr... I'd say similar stuff to above... As far as pikmin throw goes, toss whites and purples, and save everything else for smashes/attacks (A good general strategy, but IMO important against Oli's threats). The usual Dthrow > Upsmash combo, I find, Marths catch on pretty quick to. They then resort to Dairing you as you run underneath to Smash... Stick to Dthrow>Fair/Nair or Dthrow>UpB in the beggining.

If you find yourself in a pinch (like getting WoP'd by Marth's repeated Fairs) you can wac his next one and counter with a Dsmash to get your space back...

Yes, indeed, very innovative! I really like the idea!

I'll have a daily situation, and your job is to tell me the best ways to punish what I'm doing. Try to give details, to encourage conversation. I'll compile everything into a Q/A format.

Today's situation:

I'm Marth, and I'm using a wall of fairs as an approach. I'm using a rising forward fair and then using a retreating fair as I fall. It's followed up by dancing blade 50% of the time. I'll mix it up by using running DBs, and dtilt.(usual Marth stuff)

Kick the controller out of the Marth player's hand and knock Marth off the edge.

 

[Snail]

Kick the controller out of the Marth player's hand and knock Marth off the edge.

^ This.

I'd shield and roll behind him. Marths tend to get a little overexcited with their Fair combos, like "omg i can du 6 fairz in a row pro pro", so they don't expect anything simplistic like the good old shield-and-roll. They can't turn around quickly during fair spam or dancing blade and their Dsmash is horribly laggy. Basically, being behind Marth when he's spamming is good.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

Ooooo! Good thread idea!

Well I would either Nair through his airs or D-tilt under him. It's an underrated move, good damage, good for juggling but more importantly he moves forward whichs unless there Oli experts they DI right into it again and again.​

 

[Snail]

Yeah, I LOVE the downtilt too. It goes under Pit's arrows, too XD It sets them up for fair combo's, smashes and nobody ever ever expects it. :D

 

[Kyas]

The important thing to do in this thread is to find the best two ways to punish said moves of the day. Eventually, an fairing marth will do a bair if you roll behind them every time. So whats the other best way to counter this move?

I like the idea behind this thread, now lets just stay focused and it wont turn into a generic anti strategy thread like everything else.

 

[DarkStraw]

I would say its much easyer to shieldgrab marths Bair

 

[Kyas]

I would say its much easyer to shieldgrab marths Bair

Still, a good player will wise up and spot dodge your grab and probably dtilt.

Is it possible for Oli to dtilt under Marth's WOP?

Also, upB punches through marth's fair.

 

[Nibbity]

in my mind, as he sets up the brickwalls, throwing pikmin as sort of a distraction lets you in for a few fairs or maybe even a U smash. doing a short dash away or even walking away from Marth's DB can leave him to be quite punishable, so just keeping away from Marth's fairs just enough to be able to get pikmin in, then it could prove to end any brickwalls Marth may have imo.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

believe it or not....... most approaches mentioned above won't work on good marths i know this from playing neo... he is too far to shield grab... and u will get punished if you roll by bair, f-smash, dancing blades many things since he can ff and do w/e he wants as your rolling. my solution that works but takes practice to get down... is to actually dash under him/slightly behind him and up-smash. it takes timing but there is a spot where you can go and up-smash him without getting hit

 

[Oracle]

I would back up, then try to f smash when he lands, or fB with a purple in the air

 

[Nibbity]

ummm PS to backwards rolling dodge and U smash if close enough, I believe so with Yoshis distance he takes with the Bair, and if he blocks or sidesteps, do a D smash right afterwards.

 

[Snail]

Rolling dodge and fsmash or grab depending on pikmin color? :/

 

[shrinkray21]

I would either run through with a pivot grab or I would avoid the situation entirely by short hopping backwards with latch and hope he stops...yoshis have a lot of priority against olly so you have to stay out of aerial battles.

 

[Kyas]

Here are the two solutions I would use interchangeably against Yoshi's bair:
1. I would run away a short distance and pivot grab when yoshi lands.
2. I would airdodge through to my own bair.

Or i could always tetherpunch the ****er

 

[Dotcom]

DanGR just has all the cool little ideas.

Nair eats Yoshi's Bair(I know iv'e played Pride)
Short hop and Nair nearing the point where you think the Bair is going to hit you and it stops the bair and you get the Nair and you can usually follow it up with something.

Or avoid the first part of the Bair, WAC the ending and Bair(I like Bair better than Fair) or Dair to get him on the ground stepdodge the getup attack and Downsmash.

I do the Dair, Sidestep, DSmash usually as a finisher.

 

[_Ubemaya_]

I play Yoshi and Olimar, so...

Yoshi has a lot of aerial mobility so he can follow you if you run a short distance backwards. Same with ADing through the B-air, Yoshi can either follow you or follow up with a U-air (Yoshi can do SH double aerials and U-air comes out very fast). U-smash doesn't have enough horizontal range to go through the B-air. F-smashing or grabbing/pivot grabbing would work with good spacing, but at long ranges smashing/grabbing both come out slower than Yoshi can run away. Shield-grabbing would probably work if the Yoshi doesn't space himself. Also, the B-air is a multi hit attack but it's possible to shield grab in between the hits, especially if you perfect shield it. You can probably run through and pivot grab right after Yoshi takes off the ground. Other than that... meh, Olimar doesn't have many options.

EDIT: Meh, I forgot about the N-air...

 

[Snail]

Crap, this one (the IC) is hard... You could jump because the IC's aerials aren't very good, but that's just avoiding the problem, not solving it. Either way, if you're playing Battlefield or something, you could escape to the farthest up platform to force him to jump. Olimar would probably do better in the air than on the ground against the Ice Climbers. If you could somehow seperate them... Does Fsmash outpriorize Blizzard?

 

[stoopdklutz]

Uhm...haven'y played my Oli friend in a while, but I think it doesn't hit the eskimos.

 

[DanGR]

DanGR just has all the cool little ideas.

Ah shucks

I actually got this idea from the Marth forums. They had a thread titled "Punish Me!!" and I thought it was going to be something like what I made. It turned out to be a thread where this dude was about to leave marth for metaknight. He asked the Marth boards to punish him. lol http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186904

 

[Snail]

Ah shucks

I actually got this idea from the Marth forums. They had a thread titled "Punish Me!!" and I thought it was going to be something like what I made. It turned out to be a thread where this dude was about to leave marth for metaknight. He asked the Marth boards to punish him. lol http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186904

That's interesting xD

Can you shield blizzard? Wouldn't be much use since you can't grab, but you could roll->Dsmash or something.

 

[DanGR]

You might be able to shield one blizzard and roll behind them during the next to punish. (that might be what you were talking about Snail)

 

[RichBrown]

My friend has a killer ice climbers, so heres what I do when he does that (cool topic btw):

If I'm being approached by that pesky blizzard, I'll jump above and then fastfall a Dair or Nair. It's really the only way I've been able to hit them. I'm gonna try shielding and rolling behind though. This matchup is a HUGE pain for me, because I rely heavily on Oli's grab game, and if both ICs are alive then I can't really grab. I have to sneak in an attack here and there, and if I make one mistake, he's got me in a chain grab. I get frustrated thinking about it haha.

 

[BlackWaltzX]

Squall Hammers loses to your fair, bair, dair and upair.
Basically, it's hit boxes are on the sides.. so if you can run foward and hyphen smash, it works.

Down B approaching is harder. jump above them and fast fall a nair to upsmash.

If they approach you in other ways, you can forward smash them because they will be going for the chain grab.


You CAN grab them. It works. Just grab and IMMEDIATELY toss a direct5ion (Backwards to seperate, forwards to make the one hit the other.)

 

[Kyas]

Whistle sounds like the only way around the SHblizzard.
As for sideb... you can't grab one of them w/ a white/red/yellow and use the throw's hitbox to hit both of them? That's always worked for me. This is against Melee1, I might add.

 

[TheWii]

Spam fsmash, it works. I met this dude that always do that roll hammer attack to approach and fsmash always work.

 

[Snail]

You might be able to shield one blizzard and roll behind them during the next to punish. (that might be what you were talking about Snail)

Yeah, that. I'm personally not very fond of the Dair since it lags so much when you hit the ground, although jump -> nair could work. I prefer rolling behind them though, it's easier. However, when they adapt their playstyle and start Dsmashing to counter your roll it would be better to mix the rolls+downsmashes with nairs. I mean, there's no way for them to counter both, right? As long as you make sure you land behind them with the Nair :/

 

[shrinkray21]

My friend reps IC's, where one grab equals death. The only realistic option in this is to chuck purple pikmin, or fmash after the move is done. YOU CAN GRAB IC'S AS LONG AS YOUR DTHROW RIGHT AFTER, THE DAMAGE WILL HIT NANA IF YOU DO THIS FAST ENOUGH. Also, When you have them separated...for the love of god...hunt Nana :D

 

[RichBrown]

Good advice, I'll start trying to grab more. My friend who also reps IC's tends to run after me and grab, and I've found that jabbing/ftilt will keep him away. pivot grabbing might also work, it seems it'd be a great way to separate them if you pull them in at the extent of the grab and do a quick bthrow. I'm also gonna give the red-yellow-white hitbox thing a try too.

Does whistle really work? I'm sure you can SA the first handful of frames on the blizzard, but I would think that the rest of the attack would still hit you...

I like dair in this situation because it knocks em straight up and I can usually follow it with an UpSmash, despite the lag on the dair.

yeah, **** nana.

 

[Kyas]

I'd be more interested in how to counter a Charizard who abuses rock smash.

 

[Snail]

Charizard? Couldn't you just... shield grab him? :/

 

[DanGR]

You can't shieldgrab the fire. It'll disrupt your grab. Same thing goes for rock smash. I'll change the OP to include RS.

 

[Snail]

You can't shieldgrab the fire. It'll disrupt your grab. Same thing goes for rock smash. I'll change the OP to include RS.

I see... That's annoying. I suppose you can't spotdodge the fire either since you'll just get hit when the spotdodge ends... Meh. You could roll behind him but he'll probably see that coming...
And I don't suppose Fair outranges his flamethrower eh? Unless you manage to absorb it in a red pikmin, but you'll have to be lucky.

 

[DanGR]

What I try to do is throw my reds at it. If I'm pushed the the edge of the stage, I have no choice but to DI up and towards him through the fire to the other side. If he's spamming rocksmash, I'll SHairdodge through it to his back side. Rolling is too risky imo.

 

[Snail]

Yeah, I can imagine. Rolling is a pretty crappy way of spacing if your opponent is at least semi-intelligent... I'll just say DI through him, then. ><