PSA Feedback/Suggestions for Fixed Suit Samus

[Supermodel From Paris]

This is a project I'm going to be handling in my spare time. The idea is to fix a lot of bugs and issues that Zero Suit Samus has. I love to play armchair game designer (as a lot of you might know from talking to me on IRC). If anyone is interested in teaming up with me on this project I'd be more than glad since my knowledge of PSA is limited to tutorial threads and common sense. Specifically, I value feedback from ph00tbag since he seems to have the same knack for theorycrafting and balance, and seems to like the whole player-created character mods thing.

Again, the goal is not to create an extravagant or overpowered character modification. I'm willing to make large changes and even change certain moves altogether, that's fine, but I don't want to see any suggestions like "Give zss banana pulling! lol" Even though these mods generally go unused, let's still talk about it as though someone might one day use this, because otherwise what's the fun?

This thread is here because I want feedback specifically from ZSS players!

The follow changes are set in stone and will be done:

- Jab 2 now has 3 frames hitstun
- Dsmash trajectory changed slightly to avoid dsmash chains on spacies
- Grab no longer a tether; comes out on frame 5; distance on bthrow increased to avoid nasty chaingrabs.

Here are some other things I want to address but may not, depending on what is said here (not all of these, of course):

- I want to address the fsmash situation, but there aren't a lot of things we can do here. Side-B is basically "improved fsmash." One thought I had was to make side-b the fsmash and change her side-b to something else if possible (I'm not really sure). Or, I could simply change fsmash to something else (I think in PSA it is possible to give her Captain Falcon's fsmash or something).

- Nair is not good. It has uses but really it does virtually nothing, especially at high percents. so I'd like to do something with it; maybe increase the size of the hitbox underneath. Snakeee suggested giving it dsmash stun... lol no. Maybe it could kill earlier?

- Uthrow is worthless; the only thing it has going for it is that it kills earlier than the rest of them, but since ZSS kills much earlier than 250%, it rarely ever comes to that (if ever). I'd like to make uthrow kill earlier (around 150%-160%).

- This might be pushing it a little but but I want to add hitstun to dthrow to make followups a little more reliable.

- I want to change Paralyzer Shot to be more like ROB's Paralyzer Shot; you don't charge it, but the longer you refrain from using it the more powerful it becomes. Initially my thinking was that I would remove PS altogether and give ZSS a move instead that allows her to "repair" her suit and spawn a suit piece after charging (like Samus' power shot) for 3-4 seconds. There are 1000 things I could do with PS, but I don't think it's possible to edit the actual projectile. What do you guys think?

- Dair is fine as is but I want to make it cancel earlier like Sonic's, heh.

 

[mountain_tiger]

This certainly looks interesting. I have a few suggestions:

- With FSmash, make it so that it kills at 100% and does 14% damage uncharged rather than 10%. Considering how laggy it is, that's not unreasonable.

- Regarding Nair, make it so it doens't have that weirdly logn ending lag afterwards, and maybe increase the range on it. Perhaps make the edge of it do slightly more damage than the inner part.

- Make UThrow do 12% damage rather than 10%, and cut the self-induced lag.

- Give the first hit of Fair set knockback.

- Increase the hitbox size on Uair and Bair by 50%.

- Fix dash attack so that it doesn't lock.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This certainly looks interesting. I have a few suggestions:

- With FSmash, make it so that it kills at 100% and does 14% damage uncharged rather than 10%. Considering how laggy it is, that's not unreasonable.

I still dont think anyone would use it and even if they did, it wouldn't be an interesting decision between it and side-b. It STILL would not be safe.

- Regarding Nair, make it so it doens't have that weirdly logn ending lag afterwards, and maybe increase the range on it. Perhaps make the edge of it do slightly more damage than the inner part.

Actually I thought about doing this and making the hitbox larger so that it was safer for shield pressure...

- Make UThrow do 12% damage rather than 10%, and cut the self-induced lag.

Changes like this weird me out. 2% extra damage would do what? And actually I want to keep the lag, because if it kills, the lag should stay, I think.

- Give the first hit of Fair set knockback.

Good idea.

- Increase the hitbox size on Uair and Bair by 50%.

This kind of screams broken... explain?

- Fix dash attack so that it doesn't lock.

I don't know about this, doing that would eliminate all kinds of other combo possibilities that AREN'T broken (like dtilt, ftilt, jab, and the new grab).

 

[CRASHiC]

Random idea for Side B- a spin attack, useful OOS option. Use the taunt where ZSS covers spins with her whip. Make it come out fast, but has very limited mobility and no kill power. Basically, make sure this move is only useful for punishing shield pressure. Only allow it to move the total length of Metaknight's Downsmash.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I still dont think anyone would use it and even if they did, it wouldn't be an interesting decision between it and side-b. It STILL would not be safe.

True. But it would be a good killer if you landed a DSmash and it would punish spot dodges and roll dodges well.

Changes like this weird me out. 2% extra damage would do what? And actually I want to keep the lag, because if it kills, the lag should stay, I think.

An extra 2% here and there can make quite a big difference, especially since if she had a frame 5 grab she'd be landing much more of them. The current knockback is fine.

This kind of screams broken... explain?

It's not as broken as the likes of Snake's tilts...

Regardless, I just think they'd be even more fantastic if they had better range.

I don't know about this, doing that would eliminate all kinds of other combo possibilities that AREN'T broken (like dtilt, ftilt, jab, and the new grab).

With all these other changes, ZSS would be good enough without dash attack combos. Dash attack locks are dumb. Maybe add another 10 frames of cooldown or so...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What if dash attack knocked the opponent upward instead? Or if it tripped?

Random idea for Side B- a spin attack, useful OOS option. Use the taunt where ZSS covers spins with her whip. Make it come out fast, but has very limited mobility and no kill power. Basically, make sure this move is only useful for punishing shield pressure. Only allow it to move the total length of Metaknight's Downsmash.

Actually I might move paralyzer to side-b and do this for her nB... if you can do that. I don't even know.

 

[CRASHiC]

Yes, you can move characters animations around, change the knockback and damage, alter the hitbox.
Here, I'll get you the guide

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243626
Btw, can you link me to the download page for this stuff, I deleted mine and kind of need it really quick.

Btw, in case you'd like to know, it IS possible to allow ZSS to pull out a piece of her armor as an item if you want to add that in.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yes, you can move characters animations around, change the knockback and damage, alter the hitbox.
Here, I'll get you the guide

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243626
Btw, can you link me to the download page for this stuff, I deleted mine and kind of need it really quick.

Btw, in case you'd like to know, it IS possible to allow ZSS to pull out a piece of her armor as an item if you want to add that in.

I do want to add it, but Dazwa was almost positive that would be horrendously broken. Personally I'm not sure, if there were limitations in place it might be a good idea.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244302&page=4 btw... maybe not the right page, but the correct thread.

Oh and, can you make regular moves charge? Like, for instance, if I moved side-b to fsmash (...is THAT possible?) can I give it a charging element like a smash?

 

[CRASHiC]

Make it as punishable as Pokemon's change so we can only use it when either
1. the opponent is Ganon
2. the opponent has died
3. his the opponent with paralyzer

That's the best I can think of in order to balance it.

I am fairly sure you can. I don't know how though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Make it as punishable as Pokemon's change so we can only use it when either
1. the opponent is Ganon
2. the opponent has died
3. his the opponent with paralyzer

That's the best I can think of in order to balance it.

I am fairly sure you can. I don't know how though.

My idea was that it would replace paralyzer. Here's my vision of how this would work:

Hit B or side b or whatever to start charging the move. The charge animation would use the paralyzer shot animation and a different particle effect (think thunderjolt hit) and she would charge for 3-4 seconds. Tapping B again would stop the charge with no frame disadvantage. Successfully completing the charge would cause a suit peice to spawn at her feet. Only 3 suit pieces would be available at a time, although I'm almost sure this limitation is in place anyway.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

- I want to address the fsmash situation, but there aren't a lot of things we can do here. Side-B is basically "improved fsmash." One thought I had was to make side-b the fsmash and change her side-b to something else if possible (I'm not really sure). Or, I could simply change fsmash to something else (I think in PSA it is possible to give her Captain Falcon's fsmash or something).
Make fsmash sideB, but make it end later. 16frames startup is fine. Make sideB a charge up move that if fully charged allows you to spawn an armor piece, but make the charge time pretty long so you have to implement it smart.

- Nair is not good. It has uses but really it does virtually nothing, especially at high percents. so I'd like to do something with it; maybe increase the size of the hitbox underneath. Snakeee suggested giving it dsmash stun... lol no. Maybe it could kill earlier?
Maybe make it stun like neutralB, which would make it a really nice move, still it wouldnt be op as it had priority and lacking range etc.

- Uthrow is worthless; the only thing it has going for it is that it kills earlier than the rest of them, but since ZSS kills much earlier than 250%, it rarely ever comes to that (if ever). I'd like to make uthrow kill earlier (around 150%-160%).
Yespls

- This might be pushing it a little but but I want to add hitstun to dthrow to make followups a little more reliable.
No, thats pushing it

- I want to change Paralyzer Shot to be more like ROB's Paralyzer Shot; you don't charge it, but the longer you refrain from using it the more powerful it becomes. Initially my thinking was that I would remove PS altogether and give ZSS a move instead that allows her to "repair" her suit and spawn a suit piece after charging (like Samus' power shot) for 3-4 seconds. There are 1000 things I could do with PS, but I don't think it's possible to edit the actual projectile. What do you guys think?
Increase the travelling speed imo, make it always fully charged, that or increase the distance so that it goes over all the stage

- Dair is fine as is but I want to make it cancel earlier like Sonic's, heh.
WOOT, make sure to remove the shockwaves jablocking properties though, else it'd make an infinite

commeeents in reeed

 

[Nefarious B]

Although being able to spawn armor sounds hilariously fun, it would be stupid broken.

IMO, instead of changing fsmash to side b and putting side b as something else, just keep side b and change fsmash to something useful.

Although IMO if you wanted a simple thing to change, just reduce her short hop and you will see sooooo much improvement

I like Xonar's ideas on nB

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Xonar:

1. It is impossible to edit the actual projectile of Paralyzer; that includes making it move faster, making it larger, giving it a longer travel distance, or anything else. That's kind of why I want to just remove it.

2. However maybe giving the nB stun to nair would be an adequate tradeoff in its removal.

3. I'm talking about the duration the hitbopx is out, not the landing frames.

@Nef:

1. Yeah not going to do that, it alters her playstyle too much.

2. Yes to short hop height, her current SH height makes no sense and feels weird.

3. No to any changes to nB's projectile unfortunately, PSA doesn't currently support it.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Maybe it's pushing it but maybe make nB actually fire the projectile

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Here's what I think I'll do now:

1. Neutral air will stun like nB. I'll eliminate the lag. I think nair is hard enough to connect with that this wouldn't be broken. And nair->uair sounds sexy.

2. Paralyzer will be removed.

3. nB will be a faster version of ZSS' dtaunt that reflects projectiles and hits in an area around her. The knockback will be similar to the current nair.

4. Fsmash will be a new forward smash that's a little like Captain falcon's but maybe with an electric element for extra cool.

5. Shorthop will be lowered.

6. Going to go ahead with the uthrow to kill idea. We'll see how it works out.

7. I'm going to nerf Dash Attack so the startup is on frame 7 or 8 instead of 6. This means that you can combo dash attack into anything but another dash attack.

And...

8. I may lower the startup lag of dsmash and side-b by about 5 frames. I'm with Snakeee and believe these moves need a boost if they are to be competitive.

 

[ph00tbag]

Do NOT replace Paralyzer. That would completely undermine the reasoning behind any character's moveset. Of ALL of the moves ZSS has in Brawl, the ONLY one that is anywhere near attested in Metroid: Zero Mission is the emergency paralyzer pistol. If you remove it, you might as well be saying "**** you" to the people who are playing her because she comes from Metroid. Sakurai's already done that enough. Don't make me have to take it from other players of the game as well.

Make it work like ROB's laser.

Put Flip Jump into forward special, put Plasma Whip into Fsmash (this will require some work, but I think it's possible). Make it possible to Flip Jump again after being hit after it.

Give down special the animation you're thinking of for neutral special.

 

[Xyless]

Would it be possible to make her transform back to Samus using the same command used to change Samus into ZSS? If so, maybe make it like Zelda/Sheik, and if you do so and change back to ZSS, you get the pieces again AND you are no longer stale.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Do NOT replace Paralyzer. That would completely undermine the reasoning behind any character's moveset. Of ALL of the moves ZSS has in Brawl, the ONLY one that is anywhere near attested in Metroid: Zero Mission is the emergency paralyzer pistol. If you remove it, you might as well be saying "**** you" to the people who are playing her because she comes from Metroid. Sakurai's already done that enough. Don't make me have to take it from other players of the game as well.

Make it work like ROB's laser.

Put Flip Jump into forward special, put Plasma Whip into Fsmash (this will require some work, but I think it's possible). Make it possible to Flip Jump again after being hit after it.

Give down special the animation you're thinking of for neutral special.

Hey ph00t, **** YOU. jk lol

Can I ask you a few questions about PSA on AIM or in IRC?

Would it be possible to make her transform back to Samus using the same command used to change Samus into ZSS? If so, maybe make it like Zelda/Sheik, and if you do so and change back to ZSS, you get the pieces again AND you are no longer stale.

Probably would not be hard but I don't really see the point... well maybe.

 

[Nefarious B]

For paralyzer, you can just remove some of the ending lag to make it more useful for actually comboing if it hits.

I think the grab ideas are all good, having uthrow kill at like 150 with DI against midweights is solid.

Slightly faster dsmash and side b is an interesting idea, I kind of feel like this would make them overpowered since the startup is really the only thing balancing them at this point, but play around with it for sure.

I don't think moving side b to fsmash is really a good idea, on the one hand it lets you charge it, which would give ZSS a reliable low % kill move from shieldbreaker or dsmash, but on the other its no longer useable off stage, retreating, or for forcing airdodges. I think it would change too much.

Phoot's idea for making down b reusable if you get hit out of it is really good

The DA nerf is probably a good idea just considering the other stuff you're suggesting

I think the ideas for giving us an OOS whip move are interesting, but in all honesty if our SH was shortened this isn't really necessary, since fair bair nair and uair would all be much more viable OOS that way

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I won't be changing side-b to fsmash because (and solely because) you lose it as a recovery option which is REALLY important IMO.

 

[noradseven]

Here's what I think I'll do now:

1. Neutral air will stun like nB. I'll eliminate the lag. I think nair is hard enough to connect with that this wouldn't be broken. And nair->uair sounds sexy.

2. Paralyzer will be removed.

3. nB will be a faster version of ZSS' dtaunt that reflects projectiles and hits in an area around her. The knockback will be similar to the current nair.

4. Fsmash will be a new forward smash that's a little like Captain falcon's but maybe with an electric element for extra cool.

5. Shorthop will be lowered.

6. Going to go ahead with the uthrow to kill idea. We'll see how it works out.

7. I'm going to nerf Dash Attack so the startup is on frame 7 or 8 instead of 6. This means that you can combo dash attack into anything but another dash attack.

And...

8. I may lower the startup lag of dsmash and side-b by about 5 frames. I'm with Snakeee and believe these moves need a boost if they are to be competitive.

HOLY ****ING **** #1 are you serious, I mean I land a decent number of n-airs right now, combine this with shorter shorthop, whelp ****ing god tier right now, also yeah side B make it land on frame 24, and d-smash 16, and we are going god tier baby.

 

[CRASHiC]

Without changing her moveset, ZSS is as balanced as she could be IMO. You really are going to have to make some cuts and changes.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

A lot of it will be cut. I jsut hate moves that don't do anything.

 

[noradseven]

Without changing her moveset, ZSS is as balanced as she could be IMO. You really are going to have to make some cuts and changes.

different things could help jab that combos on ground hit + shorter shorthop would move us up like 3-5 places in the tier list and I mean hey we are already like B tier or something.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

something I was thinking that could improve her defensive game, dunno if its already been posted or anything so sorry about that in advance


1. Remove her Fsmash
2. Make SideB her new Fsmash
3. Make DownB her new SideB
4. Make DownB a counter move with the animation of her taunt, if she's hit while in it she grabs the target with the range of her tether and like 1frame startup. I think this would make the most unique counter and allow us to improve defensive game (i.e. oos etc)

Make the aerial counter do damage instead of grab

edit
Additionally, make usmash unable to be SDI'd out of, and give the tip hit of first jab a suck in effect so that I can safely jab combo

 

[noradseven]

something I was thinking that could improve her defensive game, dunno if its already been posted or anything so sorry about that in advance


1. Remove her Fsmash
2. Make SideB her new Fsmash
3. Make DownB her new SideB
4. Make DownB a counter move with the animation of her taunt, if she's hit while in it she grabs the target with the range of her tether and like 1frame startup. I think this would make the most unique counter and allow us to improve defensive game (i.e. oos etc)

Make the aerial counter do damage instead of grab

edit
Additionally, make usmash unable to be SDI'd out of, and give the tip hit of first jab a suck in effect so that I can safely jab combo

But then how would we do side B in the air, you know where its actually usefu.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

But then how would we do side B in the air, you know where its actually usefu.

Are you suggesting she should be only good and nothing bad?

 

[CRASHiC]

The B move I proposed earlier, I realized it could help us with a couple of things

1. If you give a Luigi tornado property, and allow the user to mash b during and cause ZSS to move upward during, that would help getting back on stage.
2. It would help her matchup against Falco by attacking like a bad Whorenado in that we can shield the lazers, and when Falco starts to do his lazer pressure mix up, we can shut it down with our not so maneuverable spin tornado whip thing attack.
3. Again, this helps her ground game. She gains a high priority move that throws the opponent into the air. it doesn't break her grond game, but it gives her a great OOS option to get the opponent in the air where we want them.

Now, if you still want side b in the air, use its animation to make a Z air, that's my suggestion. Perhaps make the Z version quicker but weaker. Not sure weather or not it should cancel like Samus's Z air.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I've got some more ideas:

- Lower the knockback on UThrow to the point where it can chaingrab up to 30-40% on most characters. That would look so ****ing cool.

- Give the weak hit of side B set knockback (why they didn't design this in the first place is beyond me)

- Make blood come out whenever she attacks (probably not realistic or gameplay enhancing, but it'd look sweet)

- Make Dair like a downwards version of her UTilt. As in, she kicks to the sides, then down, with the first hit sending the opponent into the second, which meteor smashes. However, it has horrid ending lag, just like regular UTilt, and it has noticeable landing lag too.

 

[noradseven]

Are you suggesting she should be only good and nothing bad?

im just saying grounded over B is debatably worse than f-smash... and it doesn't look as cool.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

im just saying grounded over B is debatably worse than f-smash... and it doesn't look as cool.

Yeah decrease the startup like mentioned before, but I'd think that'd be common sense though. half a second startup, lulz

 

[Charby]

Nair to a Aerial Paraliser = Genius and not broken just garantee combo to bair/uair/fair aha

 

[hyperhopper]

I HAVE A LIST!


make jabs reasonable... maybe 2 fore frames stun on jabs 1 and 2?

uthrow, make them go striaght up and MAKE THE LAG NORMAL!

nair- nB stun effect

fmash- downtaunt animation to the side you smash to, and deals about 1.2x the damage of warios Dair. sucks them into it like warios dair.
(you can add the projectile reflection if you think it wouldnt be broken, i think its borderline)

FINAL SMASH- make about 6 suit parts fly away from her in all directions, 2 extra stay at her feet the throw, the moving ones do about the knockback of a goldem hammer

shorthop needs lowering

dashattack is fine!

side-b is fine..

KEEP THE PARALYZER!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Bad news, I probably can't fix the jab because it leads to infinites. Yep.

 

[noradseven]

Bad news, I probably can't fix the jab because it leads to infinites. Yep.

ohh why does jab(3) combo into jab 1.

If this is true increase knockback on jab3, and just make the startup of jab3 higher, don't mess with the hitstun of jab2.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ohh why does jab(3) combo into jab 1.

If this is true increase knockback on jab3, and just make the startup of jab3 higher, don't mess with the hitstun of jab2.

No, jab2 combos to jab 1.

 

[CRASHiC]

Well then we could completely change the jab then. Change it from a 3 move jab to a two move jab. Maybe to make up for the loss of the potential for jab cancel variations that we could have gained, give it a bit of vertical knockback, sending them into the air, though not directly above ZSS cause that would be broken. That would not only fix our jab problem, but improve ZSS's ground game.

EDIT- Wow, why isn't Brawl + using PSA to help balance charecters again? This is some wonderful stuff that they could be doing.

 

[noradseven]

No, jab2 combos to jab 1.

yeah I know thats why I said make jab3 come out faster DON'T touch jab2

Replace her grab with f-smash but make it grab now lol.

 

[Mazaloth]

I just find her grab to be annoying. And her neutral B I think is to slow to start up to be most effectively used.

 

[I'mNotFire]

I absolutely love the idea of shortening her short hop... that is alone a very significant change.


If I can recall correctly, what jab2 needs is (not a hitstun fix) an angle buff so it will keep the opponent in the air... then they cannot power-shield.


Making grab non-tether and frame five will be fantastic. Sometimes I'm currently not able to grab opponents due to the dead zone in our grab... a ninety frame duration grab having a dead zone... doesn't make any sense to me.