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Proposal for a More Fair Melee Stage Ruleset

JFox

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Please stay open-minded, this is a big change, but makes sense if you consider it without bias.

I believe that with the metagame advancing, our rules must also adapt. During MLG days, allowed stages were constantly changing, most of them being removed completely (onett, peach's castle, etc.) With the way this game is progressing, every advantage is important, and I believe that stages are often too influential on the outcome of a match. What I have done is created a list of stages that I believe more conducive to fair play in the tournament melee scene.

Let me point out and explain a few things. You will immediately notice that I have removed a lot of stages from the list of counterpicks. Recently, many people have been arguing that stages like Mute City and Green Greens are simply too unbalanced for the level that we have taken this game to. Jungle Japes is very hazardous because of the klap trap, and the last thing we want is for a crucial game to be decided by luck during a tournament. Pokefloats lends itself to extreme camping, projectile spam, and running from the opponent to run out the timer. So these 4 stages have all been removed.

Final Destination is also being changed to counterpick because it lends itself to very unbalanced matchups due to chaingrabbing.

Also note that with this ruleset, players must always choose their character before choosing a counterpick stage, something I felt was necessary to enforce that stages do not heavily influence a match.

Neutrals- Battlefield, Dreamland, Yoshis, Pokemon Stadium, and Fountain of Dreams

Non-Neutrals- Final Destination, Kongo Jungle, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Corneria

Banned stages- Everything not listed.


First game- Players take turns striking stages from the neutral ruleset until one is left (Slot one picks first). The last one is the one played game 1.

Second game- Winner announces one ban from neutrals and one ban from non-neutrals. Loser than picks a stage. Winner chooses character, than loser chooses character.

Third game- Winner announces one ban from neutrals and one ban from non-neutrals. Loser than picks a stage. Winner chooses character, than loser chooses character.



Dave's stupid rule- Players cannot choose a stage that has already been played on already in the set.
 

Oracle

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Best of 5 typically
I dunno. That's like no stages.
Ideally we could have character specific rules, but they would get out of hand really quickly (ie: floats/greens/the wall stages banned for fox, yoshis taken off of neutrals for marth, Mute banned for puff/peach [not too sure on that one actually], etdc.). But that would be really hard to remember and enforce.
 

JFox

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the ban is valid for that one turn only...its 2 bans for each player, but one must be used on a cp, and one must be used on a neutral
 

TheManaLord

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only stages should be final d yoshis story battlefield pokemon fountain of dreams and thats it in singles and in double just final d battlefield pokemon stadium
 

Strong Badam

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It's different from the current standard, it must be inferior and we shouldn't consider it.
Who's with me???
 

JFox

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If it ain't broke
mafia, it is broke. just because its not an abhorrent system doesnt mean it doesnt need editing. Back in MLG days we used to modify the rules all the time, i dont see why that should have stopped. The current system allows green greens for christsake, a stage where bombs randomly drop from the sky, walls on each side for protection/infinites, and a ceiling twice as short as ur average stage. Thats not broken?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qo9MgJdIFY

The current stage set hasnt been modified since like 07? The last one being banned was i think peach's castle...who remembers the last time a tourney allowed peach's ****in castle...yea its time for us to recheck this ****
 

Banks

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i agree that green greens and kongo jungle should be re-evaluated. green greens is almost an exclusively "let's uair jigglypuff" stage, and lol @ bull**** klaptrap wins. i do however like the current banning and counterpick systems
 

eighteenspikes

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If Green Greens is bannable then how is corneria not? Arwings shoot randomly from the sky, a big wall for infinites, one of the shortest ceilings in the game, and there's a GIANT CAMP-PROMOTING FIN in the middle of the stage. 2/3 of the time I see corneria it gets picked by a fox, the other 1/3 is when a peach or pikachu camps the fin. And then there's that rare percentage of foxes that pick it to camp (I've seen space pet dittos time out here). How is corneria conducive to fair play at all?
 

JFox

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in all honesty, i actually agree with you. but the problem is that ALL of fox's good CPs are campy and have short ceilings. I tried to balance the CPs so that floaties and spaceys have equal CPs to choose from.

I suppose I could potentially switch corneria out for pokefloats. Is that more fair tho?
 

BluePeachy100

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Ban PokeFloats, I lost in Winner's Semis because of that ****. >( Seriously, it's campfest, OMEGA, though, if anything, it should be banned.... I'm not even sure why it's allowed in the first place.
 

Eggm

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If Green Greens is bannable then how is corneria not? Arwings shoot randomly from the sky, a big wall for infinites, one of the shortest ceilings in the game, and there's a GIANT CAMP-PROMOTING FIN in the middle of the stage. 2/3 of the time I see corneria it gets picked by a fox, the other 1/3 is when a peach or pikachu camps the fin. And then there's that rare percentage of foxes that pick it to camp (I've seen space pet dittos time out here). How is corneria conducive to fair play at all?
While I don't think any of the CP's are fair in comparison to the neutrals. I don't think that corniera is nearly as bad as green greens. Green green's have apples that randomly spawn that sometimes have bombs inside of them. Not to mention randomly some of the blocks that fall from the sky are bombs. And I think it has Wind too. Thats just a ton of random. The ships shooting you on corneria at least give you a warning seeing them flying in the background as oppose to a apple spawning in front of you stopping you from f smashing then picking up the apple instead and getting *****. Also the walls on corneria you can get out of "infinite." While you can't on GG's. for example you can smash DI up vs waveshining or jab combos that on green greens would be infinite due to the curve in the wall (Unlike on GG's).

I think the current rules need to be changed, and I don't think jfoxes rules are perfect, but I don't see anyone else posting anything better, so if you want I say we could test it out for awhile. I am at my next tournament. I'll let ya know how it goes.

Edit : Blue peachy ninja posted me.

It is banned in jfoxes current rule set.

Look :

Non-Neutrals- Final Destination, Kongo Jungle, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Corneria

Banned stages- Everything not listed.

Which I defintley agree with. Its not really fair for some one who loses r1 to a fox to have to deal with chasing him while hes shooting lasers for 8 minutes on pokefloats to win a set.
 

JFox

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lol, i dont think so ;)

too many dumb suicides, birdo's eggs are hella strong for no reason, and waveshines off the stage are broken
 

4% APR

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lol, i dont think so ;)

too many dumb suicides, birdo's eggs are hella strong for no reason, and waveshines off the stage are broken
Those eggs are really strong.

I agree with taking out gg's and floats. It sucks to be playing against a fox and think to yourself "ok i dont want to play on a moving stage" so you ban floats and then have to go to cruise. Same kinda thing with Green's/corneria and brinstar/mute. To be honest, i like this list, although i still think fd should be neutral but i see where you're coming from. i wouldnt mind trying this set
 

NeoAkira

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If mute city can be banned for how advantageous it is for Peach and Jiggs, then Battlefield should be banned for how advantageous it is for Marth.

Please stay open-minded, this is a big change, but makes sense if you consider it without bias.
 

JFox

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battlefield is marth's second worst neutral after dreamland. and aside from the ledge box being pushed out further than usual, its probably the most balanced stage in the game.

Mute city has no ledges most of the cast depends on the ledge to recover. i dont think its the same bro...
 

NeoAkira

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I'm not seeing how Battlefield is Marth's second worst neutral when he can stand under either side ledge and u-tilt to fair to dair combo any character.

Also, many of the same characters that depend on ledges to recover get screwed at battlefield because they can so easily get trapped under the stage.
 

ZoSo

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this is strictly inferior to simply giving each player two stage bans of their choice
Yup.

battlefield is marth's second worst neutral after dreamland..
Nope.

FD is more neutral than Stadium by a lot.

I also agree with eighteenspikes, except you can't infinite against the fin on Corneria.
 

Byron 1337

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Can you teach me how epsilon? I've been watchin ur vids and you look like you could really teach me a thing or two...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv5oKFO2Opw
Get owned epsilon.

Back OT, Pretty sure neutral doesn't mean fair stage, I think it means basic/simple. All of the neutrals don't have any hazards (unless you count a light breeze as a hazard) or much going on, if anything at all. (PS changes into other basic things, all FoD does is shift platform heights) Everyone has known for ages that some stages give some characters huge advantages and an evolving metagame doesn't change that. I mean, Marth has always been able to tip people on YS's platforms, and chaingrab spacies on FD.

Neutrals are fine, some CPs need to be looked at, mainly Green Greens and Kongo. Maybe Pokefloats as well.
 

The Irish Mafia

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K green greens is gay

I never really understood why pokefloats is legal, either

Well, jfox, if to's run it, I'll play it. I agree with some of your ideas, though maybe not all of them, and I support some change in the stage choice.
 

pockyD

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Back OT, Pretty sure neutral doesn't mean fair stage, I think it means basic/simple.
At the same time, the overall perception is that basic/simple = fair, which is not strictly true

All of the neutrals don't have any hazards (unless you count a light breeze as a hazard) or much going on, if anything at all. (PS changes into other basic things, all FoD does is shift platform heights)
how are PS's transformations basic?

if the mountain or the tree were standalone stages in their own right, I'm not sure they'd even be legal, much less counterpicks or even neutrals

down with stadium!

Everyone has known for ages that some stages give some characters huge advantages and an evolving metagame doesn't change that. I mean, Marth has always been able to tip people on YS's platforms, and chaingrab spacies on FD.

Neutrals are fine, some CPs need to be looked at, mainly Green Greens and Kongo. Maybe Pokefloats as well.
the question is whether the advantage marth gains on yoshi's story is necessarily surpassed by that which, say, peach gains on brinstar, and I (and many players would agree) don't think that is the case
 

Byron 1337

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At the same time, the overall perception is that basic/simple = fair, which is not strictly true
I never said it was.

Either way, we do need neutral stages to play on and I would much rather play on a unbalanced basic stage than one with a hazard.

how are PS's transformations basic?

if the mountain or the tree were standalone stages in their own right, I'm not sure they'd even be legal, much less counterpicks or even neutrals

down with stadium!
You've got a point here. I guess I was trying to say that the transformations don't break the stage or make it unplayable.



the question is whether the advantage marth gains on yoshi's story is necessarily surpassed by that which, say, peach gains on brinstar, and I (and many players would agree) don't think that is the case
Other examples work better. Fox gains a huge advantage on Green Greens/Corneria over virtually all other characters. Peach ***** Mute City pretty hard too.



On another note, you have the option to change your character when a counterpick is made. You can turn a counterpick against someone if you have more than 1 character you are fluent with.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure FD's popularity will prevent it from ever being moved to the CP stages.

Yay! My first internet debate!
 

joeplicate

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try counterpicking corneria on samus or ice climbers, it doesn't work

if anything it's more of a gamble, since shine will randomly not stun as much due to the slopes on the stage, if you lose the first life to a floaty character they will camp you relentlessly (ie s0ft)

so it's not really a "huge advantage over every other character"
green greens might be, though
 

pockyD

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I never said it was.

Either way, we do need neutral stages to play on and I would much rather play on a unbalanced basic stage than one with a hazard.
then i think you're missing the point of WHY we choose those stages for game 1

Other examples work better. Fox gains a huge advantage on Green Greens/Corneria over virtually all other characters. Peach ***** Mute City pretty hard too.
you can't disprove the example i gave so you're choosing a different one? it doesn't work that way

if you don't think brinstar is so nasty, do you think it'd be acceptable if we added that one to random?

On another note, you have the option to change your character when a counterpick is made. You can turn a counterpick against someone if you have more than 1 character you are fluent with.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure FD's popularity will prevent it from ever being moved to the CP stages.

Yay! My first internet debate!
if you use stage striking, you can make it so characters are selected after the stage is selected, so same thing there
 
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