[Project M] Yoshi Matchup Thread

[waifumagnet]

And he can do it because Ganon aerials wreck face even harder in PM

 

[deeseejay]

I've finally managed to beat that Fox I had trouble with consistently.

Now he's learning how to footstool and I suspect he's just going to gimp my recovery every time.

I've got a tournament coming on Saturday...

How screwed am I

Quick update.

Placed 3rd on the tournament on Saturday (only 17 entrants, it was a regional but still :D).

The Fox player managed to dodge me all tournament which sucks, I think I've got that match up figured out.

Got knocked out by a really good Lucas player which I only realized in our last game that rising Nairs are EXCELLENT against his recovery.

Next time!

 

[waifumagnet]

Yeah, Ness and Lucas have a super hard time against Yoshi off stage because of the hitbox of Yoshi's nair esp if they don't sweetspot

Ness especially because Ness doesn't have a tether.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Yeah, Ness and Lucas have a super hard time against Yoshi off stage because of the hitbox of Yoshi's nair esp if they don't sweetspot

Ness especially because Ness doesn't have a tether.

Disjointed toe box for the WIN

 

[SPIRE_FAN]

I've posted this before, but I find Zelda to be a tough matchup. A very defensive Zelda can be very tough to approach consistently with Yoshi being an approach heavy character. I actually find command grab very resourceful in this matchup (it is a great move regardless).
Mario... is still tough overall, Fireballs have A LOT of control over my neutral game.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I've posted this before, but I find Zelda to be a tough matchup. A very defensive Zelda can be very tough to approach consistently with Yoshi being an approach heavy character. I actually find command grab very resourceful in this matchup (it is a great move regardless).
Mario... is still tough overall, Fireballs have A LOT of control over my neutral game.

I have no problem with Mario, It's Luigi that I have a tough time with, he's just so mobile and floaty

 

[didds]

So mewtwo is frustrating, I've honestly just taken to switching to squirtle for it, yoshi can get walled out so hard..

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

@ SPIRE_FAN
My friend plays a very mean Zelda, @Prynne . Maybe he can give some input that he has.
But from what I've learned so far:
~Always DI a Throw up(DI for the Back throw kill) You have enough time to DI the D-Throw away or towards Zelda, since the animation is so long.
~The D-Throw DI :
~~~If you DI away, you HAVE to tech the landing, otherwise Zelda will punish HARD with a crit heel, another grab, F-Tilt, Dash Attack, etc.
~~~If you DI towards her, She sour spots the heel(unless she reads your DI correctly.)
~For Din's Fire, DJC N-Airs cancel them.
~Egg Roll has AMAZING Shield Pressure, Just be wary of Nayru's B****.
~I tend to throw eggs every so often. Just to either make her move a bit, or force a tech roll in a direction. Just don't stand there. YOU WILL GET PUNISHED.
~A Falling N-Air, will beat out Nayru's, at least in my experience.
~The best follow up for D-Throw I use is the Egg Toss, because I can't seem to chase her fast enough with a Rising U-Air.
~Also, Just today, I found that egg lay is a very good killing set up. when she breaks out, you are able to Up-Smash her for a kill.
~Stages:
~~I tend to stay away from Large stages against her. Because IF she does set up more than one Din's, It becomes a pain to get around.
~~I usually go Yoshi's, PS 1, Green Hill Zone, Wario Ware (Beware of Small Sides), and Skyloft. All stages with low ceilings.
~~If I was in bracket, I would ban DreamLand, PS2, and FD


Sorry this is kind of scatterbrained, Just off the top of my head.
One Last tid bit of info. Make sure you're always moving. ALWAYS. Mix ups with egg roll can help mess up or bait a move to punish. Just mix ups in general will help. For Example, Tomahawking works wonders. Just make your movements wild, but precise, and you should do fine.

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

A suggestion that I have is making this more organized on the OP. Just so that if someone needs help on a specific match up, and we already discussed it, they don't have to look through the entire thread. If we wanna redo this Thread I have no problem taking charge if people are alright with that. I just feel like it is a bit unorganized.

We say what Yoshi's Eggscelent Match ups are but don't inform people of WHY they are good and/or bad.

Any Feedback on this would be marvelous.

 

[didds]

Alright Yoshis! I have a favor to ask. Yoshi is a very unknown character thus far and a lot of the other threads don't know how to peg the MUs with their charracters so I need your input.

Any input on the general direction of MUs against other characters is appreciated. I do not need everyone, but the more the better. If you are unsure I can mark it even or Purple for unknown.

Thanks for any help!

The colors are basic:
Red: is really bad
Orange: kind of bad
Yellow: unfavorable
Light Green: favorable
Darker Green: good
Darkest Green: free win

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to give me a general consensus on what characters are known!

dark green
yellow
neutral
unknown
unknown
light green
yellow
light green
dark green
darkest green
unknown
neutral/light green
dark green
light green
yellow
light green/dark
neutral
neutral
yellow
neutral/yellow
yellow
neutral
light green
unknown
unknown
unknown
unknown
unknown
unknown
orange
yellow
dark green
unknown
yellow/orange
unknown
light green/neutral
neutral/yellow
light green/neutral
neutral
awful, horrible and terribly red, omg f this mu

I did what I could, didnt want to speak on mu's I don't have exp in.

 

[Nikes]

Does anyone have advice on the Falcon and Fox MU's? :/ I have trouble with Falcons air speed and Fox's auto-combos mostly. They're probably not that bad but not knowing what to do makes the MU ratio kind of irrelevant.

 

[didds]

I find that winning the fox mu is about calling the nair approach, pivot grabbing, and having solid punishes.
I also need help with falcon.

 

[Nuttre]

Does anyone have advice on the Falcon and Fox MU's? :/ I have trouble with Falcons air speed and Fox's auto-combos mostly. They're probably not that bad but not knowing what to do makes the MU ratio kind of irrelevant.

Dtilt and dsmash gimp.

I find that winning the fox mu is about calling the nair approach, pivot grabbing, and having solid punishes.
I also need help with falcon.

See above. I would say lightshield bu you cant do that (hint hint pmbr)

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

Been a long time since ive posted, as i have waited a while til my yoshi felt top notch. Just yesterday at our regional I made it to grand finals through winners than got 3-0'd twice by chip's marth. Every match was super close, but the only reason i feel he won is it seems marth has a garanteed d-throw to tipper f-smash, which on some stages would kill off the side at 40%. Ive spent a good deal of time trying to figure out this matchup but getting grabbed seems almost unavoidable. Using egg roll to pressure someone doesnt work as marth is one of the few who takes little to none from that hit. Trying to back air wall (with mix ups obviously) through to marth is unfruitful as his f-air beats it out. I have tried to use DDC egg lay on marth but i feel like marth puts to much pressure on yoshi and doesnt give him any space to set anything up. I know That Chip is one of the Best players around, taking third on Melee's PR for washington only ever losing to silent wolf, but there has to be something i can do to get through to marth at low percentages without getting royally punished. Even with this difficulty, i still barely lost each game (last stock, high percent)

 

[didds]

The only thing I can think of since it already seems like you have a solid grasp of mixing up your special moves is to play the patient game and fish for pivot grabs and dd dash grabs. The entire mu is dependent on who can get more grabs.
Marth destroys Yoshi with fthrow chains and dthrow -> smash
Yoshi can destroy Marth if you can manage dthrow-> punish, followed by just staying below Marth and calling his landing
Use platforms to your advantage and try to be tricky with wavelands and DJCs, waveland off of top platform to DJC dair can be fast and catch opponents off guard and sets up for easy follow ups.
egg roll to uair is still a easy and reliable kill set up if you can call marth's grab (dodge with initial hop, roll in on landing)

sorry if I haven't said anything you don't already know
how does this Marth play?

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

Well, Chip is probably one of the best players top 50 usa for sure, and one of the smartest players. He learns his matches really fast. What would you say are yoshi's strongest and weakest stages in this matchup? I feel like BF and Yoshi's story are the worst but not really sure of the best.

 

[didds]

normally I like platforms for Yoshi, but I agree that Yoshi's story is bad due to the small blast zones and limited room and battle field isn't much better for movement.

I would probably go for movement room:
Dreamland for platforms and survivability
Smashville and PS2 both give some horizontal freedom.
Distant Planet, Skyloft, and PS1 could also be good, but that's dependent on your stage list

my 2 cents, granted I don't think I'm quite your level at this game

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

knowledge and current playing skill i feel are two different things. I agree with you, unfortunately distant planet is not legal. I appreciate the thought and will experiment with this. still, knowing which move is optimally the best at early percentage is still up in the air.

 

[didds]

I'm personally a heavy zoner and will fish for pivot grabs all day, but it just doesn't always work against a character like Marth who can out zone, but I'd still suggest getting used to quick retreating pivot grabs literally anytime you see an approach coming.

It's just so good and leads into kills.

That and one good DJC dair for a stock.

The whole matchup will be you trying to catch him reaching and then maximizing your punishes from below.

I feel like if you couldld condition him to expect the pivot grab then you'll be able to mix it up with regular dash grab/egg roll/DJC approach to get in and something started.

Heck, don't underestimate a simple hop away > waveland inward > Dtilt to try and get something started.

One thing our Dino isn't lacking are movement mixups

 

[TomBoComBo]

If its any advice, you can DI Marth's forward throw up and away and then DJ through the F-smash. I did this to Liquid'Ken in Pools at CEO this weekend. Kept me alive and close. I took him to game 5 and came in 3rd behind him and Mang0

 

[TomBoComBo]

He's smart as hell

 

[Scatz]

From what I was told, you had to DI down and away on Marth's F-Throw so you can tech before F-smash lands.

Also, good **** Tombo.

 

[didds]

I was gonna say, I know at early percents Marth gets a couple guaranteed fthrows, but I didn't think it was guaranteed at kill percents. That just makes the grab game for this MU devastating for both characters.

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

You cant DDC through marth's f-smash. it sends yoshi into a free fall, even the non-tipper hit. I experimented with the DI down and away and you can only get away after about 45%. Didds, i like your concept about the waveland into marth. I feel like that is a strong luigi tactic that could translate well. i just wish yoshi had his melee waveland back, but that would be to op.

Back on marth's f-smash though. Because it does put yoshi into a free fall and not a tumble, do you think there is any lag or would you be able to start a move?

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

Also, didds, i just noticed you posted about having trouble with Mewtwo? In my opinion its it yoshi's favor. Our mewtwo main here, who even beats Chip, is one of the best, yet out of the last 10 times i have played him in tourney, i only lost the second time. Yoshi in this matchup wants to trade as much as possible, and mewtwo just cant afford to trade with mewtwo. Also, take him to green hill zone or dream land, Di'ing properly will lead to much longer lifes than mewtwo and its the best way to space him out. I'll post saturdays tourney match against him just to show you how well yoshi fairs (hue hue) in this match up.

 

[didds]

waveland in neutral is super under utilized and awesome, few see it coming if you just throw it out a few times. I co main Squirtle so I'm used to waveland shenanigans.

For the fsmash, I can't help but feel that the free fall punish would only work at fairly low percents for Yoshi, and by the time you're at the high percent where you really need it, you'll be stunned and it will be impossible anyway. (I'm not actually sure if the stun is the case). Even if you could, I'm not sure what you could punish with without the DJ left to give extra mobility. Maybe something goofy like egg lay since it has the range.

I wonder if you could egg lay out of the range and roll back in for a punish, but I guess that runs the risk of being sent off without a DJ :/

 

[didds]

Also, didds, i just noticed you posted about having trouble with Mewtwo? In my opinion its it yoshi's favor. Our mewtwo main here, who even beats Chip, is one of the best, yet out of the last 10 times i have played him in tourney, i only lost the second time. Yoshi in this matchup wants to trade as much as possible, and mewtwo just cant afford to trade with mewtwo. Also, take him to green hill zone or dream land, Di'ing properly will lead to much longer lifes than mewtwo and its the best way to space him out. I'll post saturdays tourney match against him just to show you how well yoshi fairs (hue hue) in this match up.

That's awesome, I'd definitely love to see a video of the MU, I usually just use the squirts for some projectile and zone heavy characters, but I'm pushing to have Yoshi as a more solid main.

lol sorry bout the double double post

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

Does anyone have advice on the Falcon and Fox MU's? :/ I have trouble with Falcons air speed and Fox's auto-combos mostly. They're probably not that bad but not knowing what to do makes the MU ratio kind of irrelevant.

Fox is hella easy and gets bodied by yoshi. U-tilt is fox's worst nightmare. egg rolling into fox's shield is super safe than its a mind game from there. once you get an up-tilt started, and be sure fox is atleast at 15 percent, you can combo him to 90. Fox is unfortunate enough that he gets stuck in a ground tumble animation from yoshi's uptilt, and doesnt have enough space to di away, a peak di from fox is enough space to get an up-angled f-tilt which will pull him back into you. finish this combo with a d-smash and than d-tilt his fox fire.

 

[deeseejay]

Fox is hella easy and gets bodied by yoshi. U-tilt is fox's worst nightmare. egg rolling into fox's shield is super safe than its a mind game from there. once you get an up-tilt started, and be sure fox is atleast at 15 percent, you can combo him to 90. Fox is unfortunate enough that he gets stuck in a ground tumble animation from yoshi's uptilt, and doesnt have enough space to di away, a peak di from fox is enough space to get an up-angled f-tilt which will pull him back into you. finish this combo with a d-smash and than d-tilt his fox fire.

I disagree that Fox is "hella easy".

If the Fox is good, he won't blindly rush in and will spam lasers and wait for the Yoshi to approach which is where Yoshi struggles sometimes, especially against faster characters with a sick punish game...like Fox.

Also shine heavy shield pressure is very hard to deal with, shine doesn't care about super armour at all.

 

[Scatz]

I'm just gonna wait until people actually take games off Zero's Fox to make that claim. When people thought the MU for Fox vs Sonic was terrible because of Wizzy, Zero made people realize that Fox is extremely capable of handling matchups with his toolset.

 

[didds]

Speaking of Sonic, anyone feel Yoshi has a pretty good MU against him?

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ didds I feel it's about even or ever so slightly skewed in sonic's favor. The use of neutral B will keep him from being too mobile and he'll respect your space a bit more if you land it once or twice. The best thing though, going back to a favorite Yoshi tool that I seem to be the only one to use: Rising N-airs off the stage. If sonic uses a homing attack to recover, you can go out on him and be right there with a N-air out. He takes the hit and doesn't get any trade for it.

 

[didds]

The only sonic I've played is fairly aggressive, so I can pretty much shut down his approach with Pivot Grab. Aside from that I don't know the MU that well.

 

[TomBoComBo]

The only sonic I've played is fairly aggressive, so I can pretty much shut down his approach with Pivot Grab. Aside from that I don't know the MU that well.

I played against Wizzy, and I can say that the MU is indeed tough. You have to be mindful of how long sonic has been rolling around and you have to remember that eggroll only beats spindash when spindash is in the air. when sonic is turning around, the damage is reset, much like Yoshi's eggroll, it's good to try and catch it after you force a turn or while he's turning. be Mindful that He can jump out of spindash, so the best way to get around it is to roll past it, because if you spotdodge or shield, sonic can turn around fast enough to apply more pressure or just hit you after spotdodge is over. What Wizzy does is he'll approach with it and do the turnaround IN your shield so that your shield gets hit like 7 times in succession then he'll mix up what he'll follow that with, being a jump to dair on your panic-roll, or he'll shorthop N-air to kill an attempted grab or other things that I haven't seen. I think that Sonic may be chain grabbable after like 20% or so, as long as he DI's forward. If he doesn't DI forwards, then you get free Up-air strings or a simple Upsmash.

 

[didds]

I played against Wizzy, and I can say that the MU is indeed tough. You have to be mindful of how long sonic has been rolling around and you have to remember that eggroll only beats spindash when spindash is in the air. when sonic is turning around, the damage is reset, much like Yoshi's eggroll, it's good to try and catch it after you force a turn or while he's turning. be Mindful that He can jump out of spindash, so the best way to get around it is to roll past it, because if you spotdodge or shield, sonic can turn around fast enough to apply more pressure or just hit you after spotdodge is over. What Wizzy does is he'll approach with it and do the turnaround IN your shield so that your shield gets hit like 7 times in succession then he'll mix up what he'll follow that with, being a jump to dair on your panic-roll, or he'll shorthop N-air to kill an attempted grab or other things that I haven't seen. I think that Sonic may be chain grabbable after like 20% or so, as long as he DI's forward. If he doesn't DI forwards, then you get free Up-air strings or a simple Upsmash.

lol, definitely haven't played against a Sonic of Wizzy's caliber

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

I disagree that Fox is "hella easy".

If the Fox is good, he won't blindly rush in and will spam lasers and wait for the Yoshi to approach which is where Yoshi struggles sometimes, especially against faster characters with a sick punish game...like Fox.

Also shine heavy shield pressure is very hard to deal with, shine doesn't care about super armour at all.

Approaching on fox is pretty safe, and also, his shine does not effect yoshi's heavy armor (its not super armor) at all. Spacies cannot afford to trade with yoshi, because they will lose. nair wrecks them to hard, falco will die early because of nair, and fox will get combo'd from a good nair.


Sonic vs yoshi matchup i feel is 60-40 yoshi favor. Its definitely one you need to know, but yoshi just has to much in his kit to deal with sonic. ban BF and PS2 and i dont think there would be anything benificial for sonic to deal with yoshi on. I feel like as long as you maintain your stage control sonic is screwed, which is my reasoning behind BF and PS2. FD makes sonic's approach very linear and by far the best combo stage for yoshi in the matchup. Dream land would be another great pick against sonic.

 

[deeseejay]

Approaching on fox is pretty safe, and also, his shine does not effect yoshi's heavy armor (its not super armor) at all. Spacies cannot afford to trade with yoshi, because they will lose. nair wrecks them to hard, falco will die early because of nair, and fox will get combo'd from a good nair.

How is approaching on Fox safe? Like genuinely interested. I don't see any "safe" options, especially when Fox can outmanoeuvre the majority of the cast, let alone Yoshi.

 

[TomBoComBo]

How is approaching on Fox safe? Like genuinely interested. I don't see any "safe" options, especially when Fox can outmanoeuvre the majority of the cast, let alone Yoshi.

Eggroll is semi-safe if used creatively. Dtilt is good for knocking him away and setting up tech-chases. If you use the grab armor correctly, you can grab through his N-air planes. Fox is a character you don't really want to approach, but I believe Yoshi can get in relatively easier than most of the cast.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Hey, I'm a Wolf main and I may have to play a very good Yoshi at tournament. My secondaries are: Mario, Charizard and Marth. What are my best options here?

 

[waifumagnet]

Spacies against Yoshi is a pretty tough MU if you get hit since Yoshi can combo for days. Since a majority of the damage Wolf has to deal is up close, you have to be mindful of your spacing and Yoshi's moves. Positioning is pretty key in the Yoshi MU imo. Out of your secondaries, I feel like Mario and Charizard will do fairly well against Yoshi. Marth is a good character if you know your combos since Yoshi gets combo'd very easily.