[Project M] Yoshi Matchup Thread

[KastroFoster]

Hey tombocombo , i have just visited to the link the you have posted and i watched the video , i really enjoyed that game. Thanks for sharing such interesting links. Keep on sharing.

 

[FlamingForce]

I'm still in shock over people thinking Roy beats Yoshi, poor guy gets combo'd into the ground and dies to 2 dtilts or dsmash lol

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'm still in shock over people thinking Roy beats Yoshi, poor guy gets combo'd into the ground and dies to 2 dtilts or dsmash lol

I agree. Roy can't sweet spot the ledge without showing a hitbox on the stage, so in the few frames after his sword passes through the ledge, Yoshi can dash attack and knock him off. It's tricky timing, but it's guaranteed every single time.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Hey tombocombo , i have just visited to the link the you have posted and i watched the video , i really enjoyed that game. Thanks for sharing such interesting links. Keep on sharing.

Thanks, I try my best. More videos coming next weekend

 

[Eight 52]

What are you guys thoughts on the ivysaur matchup?

From what I have experience so far it is not very good for Yoshi.

 

[TensenROB]

What are you guys thoughts on the ivysaur matchup?

From what I have experience so far it is not very good for Yoshi.

I've found edgeguarding Ivysaur very easy, nair offstage can keep him away and rising nair at the ledge can knock him out of tether.

 

[Airrogance]

First post n figured i'd make it in the yoshi sub.

Played a tournament today and have no idea how I can beat meta knight, he punishes super hard and can just body me until I get lucky and super armor something he throws out. Somewhat had a problem with falco but figure it's just a spacing issue cause his shine ruins all my follow ups. And I can't get anything guranteed out of throws against falco, he techs too fast. not sure what to do, anyone have tips for these two?

 

[TomBoComBo]

First post n figured i'd make it in the yoshi sub.

Played a tournament today and have no idea how I can beat meta knight, he punishes super hard and can just body me until I get lucky and super armor something he throws out. Somewhat had a problem with falco but figure it's just a spacing issue cause his shine ruins all my follow ups. And I can't get anything guranteed out of throws against falco, he techs too fast. not sure what to do, anyone have tips for these two?

A solid spacing and read game is necessary. Grabs destroy both characters hardcore. Upthrow on Falco leads to anything you want past like 20% (a simple uptilt is all you need to extend your options), and you can gimp Falco with 2 dtilts. Metaknight can be uptilted to 50%-60% off of a downthrow and then other downthrows lead to upair or a nair. Matchups are tricky, but not very difficult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52YrZOkNgYY

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Yoshi vs Marth
Wat dat like? Give me numbers to plz like 5:5 er something

 

[TomBoComBo]

Yoshi vs Marth
Wat dat like? Give me numbers to plz like 5:5 er something

Marth can't deal with grab-parrys and being grabbed. Eggthrow when marth is off the ledge makes his recovery an easy gimp.

 

[Deviljho]

Yoshi vs Marth
Wat dat like? Give me numbers to plz like 5:5 er something

Dtilt when he's trying to recover. After two dtilts he's dead. Grabs work wonders, and try exploring some egg rollage. ...Yes I say egg roll a lot. Don't rely too much on it though. Bair helps a lot in this MU too.

Matchup I'd say is slightly in Marfs favor, maybe 6:4, or even, 5:5.

 

[Airrogance]

I think to say Marth can't deal with being grabbed is pretty standard for almost anybody when you're playing Yoshi. And I don't really think a good marth is going to get grabbed often because alls he has to do is keep his spacing right which isnt that hard due to his dash dance. I just think it's a lil' too simple to say, grabs destroy this character. Well yeah, yoshi's grabs destroy most characters cause he can follow nearly all of them up.

I can't talk much tho, cause I dont have experience w Marth match-up. I definitely agree w/ devil, experiment with egg roll I think it'll be much easier to get in on him if you egg roll.

 

[tauKhan]

And you certainly can't parry grabs reliably, they come out so fast, and parry doesn't even block them, so you have to be precise.

 

[TomBoComBo]

And you certainly can't parry grabs reliably, they come out so fast, and parry doesn't even block them, so you have to be precise.

UM.... yes you can be. I parry grabs on a regular basis. It's not that hard. Parry makes 90% of grabs whiff, the other 10% (being tether grabs) you have to be in the right spot. Marth is actually one of the easiest to grab parry, since it's easy to tell when he wants to grab you. Grab-Parrying is incredibly reliable if you have the ability to read when you're open to a grab. I am savvy on that, therefor I can parry grabs very reliably.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U013VI2j_Vw
Here's me vs a sonic in winners finals at Tampa's Sweet Spot Bi-weekly. I lost pretty hard, and I went Snake the first match (you can just ignore that), BUT.... I parried like 85% of his grabs, to the point where he stopped using grabs as a go-to option.

End Statement, Yes, you can certainly parry grabs reliably. The grabs can be read and you have an easy 6 frame window to parry them. Grab-Parry makes grabs whiff, it doesn't block them; It's like you're not even there. And the timing is tricky, but if you read the grab coming, it's very easy. It's a very reliable option and a pivotal part of my game.

 

[tauKhan]

The point is you need a read. You can't reliably read a good opponent like that, he should be mixing his grab timings. You have 4 frames window for the grab parry if you want to jc it, because grabs have more than 1 active frame and you lose inv at frame 6 when you jump. Parrying grabs works exactly same as in melee, and even aMSa doesn't rely on parrying grabs vs marth.

Kinda forgot that you can jump OoS, so you don't need to leave shield, and have 5 frame window for it. Since shielding isn't so bad in this game, you can actually pre-emptively shield to get grab parrys. You were probably right.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I think to say Marth can't deal with being grabbed is pretty standard for almost anybody when you're playing Yoshi. And I don't really think a good marth is going to get grabbed often because alls he has to do is keep his spacing right which isnt that hard due to his dash dance. I just think it's a lil' too simple to say, grabs destroy this character. Well yeah, yoshi's grabs destroy most characters cause he can follow nearly all of them up.

I can't talk much tho, cause I dont have experience w Marth match-up. I definitely agree w/ devil, experiment with egg roll I think it'll be much easier to get in on him if you egg roll.

All of Marth's moves except his neutral B clang off of eggroll, so you have to be very creative with it to get in on him. Mrth is a character you want to trick. You want to make him do something so you can punish him for it. I like to dash in like I'm approaching then wavedash back and back n forth like that. Even a good Marth will throw out a tilt or a smash out of instinct. Yes, Yoshi dominates everyone with grabs, but saying Marth plays a spacing game doesn't change that. Say if the Marth shffl's at you with a forward-air, you can dash back and pivot grab him. Yoshi's versatility in getting grabs is honestly unmatched by any other character. If you approach a Marth in any way, unless you can get a grab on him or finish him off there, end the approach with a d-tilt; because of the set knockback, it will space you out again, give you the opportunity to tech-chase or gimp, and since Yoshi can cc most of Marth's moves at early percents, it's guaranteed. AND Grab-Parry. Yes it is slightly precise, and does take practice to master, but it makes every matchup much easier. It essentially removes a punish option for them, which is a really big deal. Do I parry EVERY grab? No, I'm not Godlike (yet), but I do it enough that people think twice about grabbing as the match goes on. Make sure to punish the missed grab along with everything else, since Yoshi's punish-game is ridiculous.

 

[TomBoComBo]

The point is you need a read. You can't reliably read a good opponent like that, he should be mixing his grab timings. You have 4 frames window for the grab parry if you want to jc it, because grabs have more than 1 active frame and you lose inv at frame 6 when you jump. Parrying grabs works exactly same as in melee, and even aMSa doesn't rely on parrying grabs vs marth.

Kinda forgot that you can jump OoS, so you don't need to leave shield, and have 5 frame window for it. Since shielding isn't so bad in this game, you can actually pre-emptively shield to get grab parrys. You were probably right.

It's a 6 frame window, and most grabs only have 2-3 active frames (not including tethers) so that's not super hard timing. and I play against some badass opponents, including that sonic, it's not hard to realize you're vulnerable to a grab, even less to see that and realized it's your opponent's best option. The only reason they'd very the timing of their grabs is if you're already parrying them, even pros don't do that unless there's a real need to. AND even if they start doing that, Yoshi has a bazillion movement options, and the fact that you make them vary their grab timings means your forcing them to play your game. Count on 99% of your opponents grabbing the first chance they get, would you waste precious frames when your opponent is vulnerable to try and mind-game them with a late grab? especially when a grab right away is guaranteed? It's not efficient nor logical. Jumping OoS lets you punish after parrying a grab or to get out when you need to. And Yoshi's shield is the best in the game, so staying in shield isn't a bad option anyways.

Anyways, I didn't mean to snap at you like that, I have put extensive work into discovering and learning the Grab Parry. For someone to say it's not reliable when I parry grabs everywhere all the time, that's a bit irritating. What's important is that we all have a love for Yoshi and want to prove that he's a Top tier Character.

 

[tauKhan]

I said 5 because of 2 active frames. If you parry frame 6 you'll get grabbed frame 7.

 

[jtm94]

Alright Yoshis! I have a favor to ask. Yoshi is a very unknown character thus far and a lot of the other threads don't know how to peg the MUs with their charracters so I need your input.

Any input on the general direction of MUs against other characters is appreciated. I do not need everyone, but the more the better. If you are unsure I can mark it even or Purple for unknown.

Thanks for any help!

The colors are basic:
Red: is really bad
Orange: kind of bad
Yellow: unfavorable
Light Green: favorable
Darker Green: good
Darkest Green: free win

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to give me a general consensus on what characters are known!

 

[TomBoComBo]

Here's My matchup knowledge. This won't be the Yoshi community's fully agreed on list, but in the way I play Yoshi, this is my list
YOSHI vs
(my opinion, in the way I play Yoshi)
Red: R
Orange: O
Yellow: Y
Light Green: LG
Darker Green: G
Darkest Green: DG
Unknown: P
ADDING: EVEN MATCH: E

Mario: E
Luigi: Y
Peach: LG
Bowser: DG
Yoshi: P
Wario: P
Donkey Kong: G
Diddy Kong: LG
Link: E
TLink: G
Zelda: O
Sheik: Y
Ganon: G
Samus: LG
ZSS: O
Kirby: O
Metaknight: Y
DEDEDE: DG
Fox: G
Falco: LG
Wolf: G
Pika: P
Jiggs: E
Mewtwo: LG
Squirtle: E
Ivysaur: LG
Charzard: LG
Lucario: LG
Falcon: G
Ness: LG
Lucas: E
Climbers: G
Marth: DG
Roy: G
Ike: G
GnWatch: LG/P
Pit: E/P
Olimar: P
ROB: Y
Sonic: Y
Snake: G

 

[TomBoComBo]

Alright Yoshis! I have a favor to ask. Yoshi is a very unknown character thus far and a lot of the other threads don't know how to peg the MUs with their charracters so I need your input.

Any input on the general direction of MUs against other characters is appreciated. I do not need everyone, but the more the better. If you are unsure I can mark it even or Purple for unknown.

Thanks for any help!

The colors are basic:
Red: is really bad
Orange: kind of bad
Yellow: unfavorable
Light Green: favorable
Darker Green: good
Darkest Green: free win

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to give me a general consensus on what characters are known!

POSTED RESPONSE

 

[jtm94]

Thank you! Very interesting to see your opinion. I have updated my MU notes until I get more input.

 

[TensenROB]

Alright Yoshis! I have a favor to ask. Yoshi is a very unknown character thus far and a lot of the other threads don't know how to peg the MUs with their charracters so I need your input.

Any input on the general direction of MUs against other characters is appreciated. I do not need everyone, but the more the better. If you are unsure I can mark it even or Purple for unknown.

Thanks for any help!

The colors are basic:
Red: is really bad
Orange: kind of bad
Yellow: unfavorable
Light Green: favorable
Darker Green: good
Darkest Green: free win

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to give me a general consensus on what characters are known!

I think Yoshi vs Kirby is at least an even matchup, because while it's easy for Yoshi to land hits on Kirby, Kirby can easily combo Yoshi out of successful hits. It feels like comboing a Samus. In the Kirby threads the only justification for LG I've seen is someone saying that DJ armour makes it difficult to kill Yoshi.

Pros:

• Nair is easy to land imo
• Dthrow links into u-air easily
• Kirby's light weight makes ceiling KO's good

Cons:

• Difficult to continue comboing him after u-air
• Kirby's u-tilt combos into itself a few times at early %
• Kirby's b-air starts beating out DJ armour at 73% which with Kirby's offstage game makes it easy to get edgeguarded

 

[Airrogance]

Here's My matchup knowledge. This won't be the Yoshi community's fully agreed on list, but in the way I play Yoshi, this is my list
YOSHI vs
(my opinion, in the way I play Yoshi)
Red: R
Orange: O
Yellow: Y
Light Green: LG
Darker Green: G
Darkest Green: DG
Unknown: P
ADDING: EVEN MATCH: E

Mario: E
Luigi: Y
Peach: LG
Bowser: DG
Yoshi: P
Wario: P
Donkey Kong: G
Diddy Kong: LG
Link: E
TLink: G
Zelda: O
Sheik: Y
Ganon: G
Samus: LG
ZSS: O
Kirby: O
Metaknight: Y
DEDEDE: DG
Fox: G
Falco: LG
Wolf: G
Pika: P
Jiggs: E
Mewtwo: LG
Squirtle: E
Ivysaur: LG
Charzard: LG
Lucario: LG
Falcon: G
Ness: LG
Lucas: E
Climbers: G
Marth: DG
Roy: G
Ike: G
GnWatch: LG/P
Pit: E/P
Olimar: P
ROB: Y
Sonic: Y
Snake: G

Can you like, explain some of these? (Mainly just the marth one tbh) Cause' I'm really failing to see how Marth is a free win. If your reasoning for this is simply grab parrying that's kinda ridiculous. I just don't see how Marth is a free win in anyway possible

 

[TomBoComBo]

Can you like, explain some of these? (Mainly just the marth one tbh) Cause' I'm really failing to see how Marth is a free win. If your reasoning for this is simply grab parrying that's kinda ridiculous. I just don't see how Marth is a free win in anyway possible

Because Marth is an easy character to gimp with d-tilt and mind games. Yoshi's grabs are ridiculous and (this is a bit absurd) Eggroll clangs off of a tipper forward-smash. Grab-Parries help a ton with approaching and keeping pressure off, but that's not my only reasoning. If you know how to space out his forward-smash (or clang it with eggroll) Marth has no way to kill you other than a spike or an up-b. Yoshi has more movement options and more punishment game and more ways to kill Marth than the other way around.

 

[TomBoComBo]

any other questions?

 

[deeseejay]

I really struggle with Toon Link, Ness and fastfallers.

Any advice?

Toon Link and Ness in particular I just get out spaced and spammed with projectiles, I find it really hard to get in.

Fast fallers I play just bait and punish me all day long and I struggle to do max damage out of grabs, one hit at most.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I really struggle with Toon Link, Ness and fastfallers.

Any advice?

Toon Link and Ness in particular I just get out spaced and spammed with projectiles, I find it really hard to get in.

Fast fallers I play just bait and punish me all day long and I struggle to do max damage out of grabs, one hit at most.

OK. Fast Fallers are hard to combo extensively right ff the bat, but they are very easy to gimp. Basically if you get like 20% on them, you can up-throw them and up-tilt them until they DI away then you tech chase. ALSO Yoshi's d-tilt has a set knockback, so a few of those of those well timed and spaced can get you a stock. The Key with Fast Fallers is Upthrow and DJC SHFFL Up-airs. D-tilt/D-smash are important too.

Toon link is a pretty even matchup for Yoshi, You have to remember the priority of moves. Nair beats out boomerang and clangs arrows. Eggroll clangs both projectiles, and bombs bounce off of shield 100% of the time. Yoshi's grab game is amazing no matter who you're playing against, Toon Link is no different. Toon Link is another character who's easy to gimp with d-tilt because his recovery is pretty abysmal.

Ness is a harder matchup because PKfire has stupid priority. The best you can do to avoid it is to read when he wants to put PKfire out and jump over it or get out of it's way. BUT other than PKfire, Ness is combo'ed easy at lower percents with up-tilts. AND Since Yoshi's Nair is a Disjointed Hitbox, His foot that sticks out can out-prioritize almost anything with the right spacing. So if you get Ness off the stage without his DJ, You can time hitting him with the foot of your Nair when he Up-b's to the stage. If your timing is correct, you don't take any damage and the process my repeat itself 2-3 times, but if you can get that right multiple times in a row, you get the stock. Fast falling off the stage and hitting Ness with a rising aerial is also very viable option.

This is how I deal with these characters, I hope it helps

 

[Airrogance]

Going to a fest tonight, going to try n get tons of different matchups as long as I'm not too turnt. Will post anything I find out about certain chars and/or problems

OK, **** peepee's marth. Id say marth isnt a free win but like.. nothing is a free win against pp. but still. if Marth gets in on yoshi he can just wreck you. And also I totally disagree w/ you tombo about gimping marth with dtilt, a good player is just going to sweetspot the ledge and not sit on it. You're not going to get a d tilt gimp on a good Marth so you really can't use that as a reason why Yoshi is good against marth. Also, Marth's aerials completely **** eggroll. And he definitely has other ways to kill you besides forward smash/spike/ up b. You're forgetting that marth is incredible at gimping people, even with the mixups Yoshi has. I really don't think the match up is in Yoshi's favor at all.

 

[Hughie]

Yeah, I would say that Yoshi/Marth MU is defs in Marth's favour. You can space with bair and hope to get through Marth's fair and nair, but it won't beat those always. Shield grabs against Marth don't really work too. If they nair your shield your best option is to OoS DJC nair. And since Marth DOES gimp incredibly well, don't try to get below the ledge cause he'll either just grab the ledge, dair, or down tilt. If you are recovering below the ledge just try to tank everything with your DJ super armour. Or air dodge on stage, which is probably the best choice.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I want to point out that your new and improved eggs can trip Marth up quite a bit since you can't easily clank with them without taking damage and KB. They can be of great use mid and long range and lead to tilts/dsmash, but don't spam them predictably.

Eggs are also a safe way to build up damage on a recovering Marth too, but only if you mastered aiming low.

Oh and ftilt can be a nice spacing tool due to it's deceptive reach but you probably won't be able to combo off of it.

A word of warning too: try not to get grabbed at low %. Yoshi's combo weight makes him dogmeat against Marth and the PM iteration of Marth's Fthrow...
If you DI the Fthrow away from him to avoid a regrab, you eat a tipper fsmash and risk getting edgeguarded early. You DI the Fthrow to avoid the tipper, you get regrabbed. This can repeat for quite a bit too. Not sure what to do in that situation.

While it is still in Marth's favor, the MU is definitely better than it was in Melee for Yoshi.

 

[deeseejay]

I've finally managed to beat that Fox I had trouble with consistently.

Now he's learning how to footstool and I suspect he's just going to gimp my recovery every time.

I've got a tournament coming on Saturday...

How screwed am I

 

[Scatz]

Little if you know how it works and how they have to set up to get it. Footstool only works if you're not doing an aerial or airdodge in the air. It will go through your jump if you try to DJ before he footstools you. Since he has to practically be on top of you, just be ready to smack him away while recovering. Rising aerials help with that.

 

[TensenROB]

Even if the Fox is capable doing shine->dj->footstool (unlikely), rising u-air has enough disjoint to keep him from doing either.

 

[waifumagnet]

I found that when Yoshi recovers high, it gets near impossible to footstool him just because of how high he goes. Of course, Yoshi has to be careful on the way down until he hits the ground but it's an effective tool against footstools.

 

[Deviljho]

I found that when Yoshi recovers high, it gets near impossible to footstool him just because of how high he goes. Of course, Yoshi has to be careful on the way down until he hits the ground but it's an effective tool against footstools.

Yes, that is definitely the case. Sometimes though, that may not be possible due to a lower angle of knockback. But viable when applicable, no doubt.

Also, your name is frickin amazing.

 

[waifumagnet]

LOL thank you

Unless the opposing character doesn't have a strong aerial like Ganon, Ike, DK, etc.... Yoshi can get away with recovering high with relative ease. Egg roll improves the mind game with recovering and because it's such a safe move on hit or block, it's pretty useful.

Man, I don't even play Yoshi. Why am I on here? xD

 

[TomBoComBo]

LOL thank you

Unless the opposing character doesn't have a strong aerial like Ganon, Ike, DK, etc.... Yoshi can get away with recovering high with relative ease. Egg roll improves the mind game with recovering and because it's such a safe move on hit or block, it's pretty useful.

Man, I don't even play Yoshi. Why am I on here? xD

Because You easily have the most match-up knowledge against Yoshi. You played me endlessly last semester, you're the only one who knows what Yoshi is

 

[waifumagnet]

JUST HIT YOSHI. HIT YOSHI UNTIL HE DIES AND DOESN'T COME BACK.

 

[TomBoComBo]

JUST HIT YOSHI. HIT YOSHI UNTIL HE DIES AND DOESN'T COME BACK.

That's how Ian Mooney fights me lol