Project M v3.5 Blog #3 on Lucas' Recovery

[KhanYe]

Just several minutes ago, the Project M Dev Team released a blog post outlying the changes to Lucas' recovery to follow up on their previous blog post on the ever-so controversial Tether recoveries as a whole. They presented specific examples of what will be different about Lucas' recovery, essentially making his recovery less safe.

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Lucas is a character that is lauded/criticized for having a strong neutral game, heavy punishes, and a myriad of kill moves along with a incredibly difficult recovery to edgeguard. The PMDT seems to want to make recoveries less safe as a whole, and described in detail the changes they're currently testing on the Earthbound kid Lucas. According to the PMDT's blog post:

As stated in the previous recovery blogpost, a major goal for us is to have characters creatively using all of their options while offstage. The new tether restrictions in place helped to tone down the Z-air recovery slightly, but it still didn't necessitate enough variation. We elected to match the Z-tether range closer to the physical range suggested by his turn grab (50 units -> 35 units). In addition to being more visually intuitive, it creates more scenarios where Lucas needs to utilize Up-Special to have enough range to recover. Z-tether is still an exceptionally powerful tool for both recovering and edgeguarding, but the combination of global tether adjustments and the shorter range of his tether means that it is no longer his best choice as consistently.

We've also adjusted Magnet's stalling capabilities. Most other stalls in the game, such as Marth Side-Special or Mario's Side-Special, lose the majority of their stalling efficacy immediately after the first aerial use. Conversely, Lucas could fire off quick blip after blip of Magnet with little reduction in stalling power. In this way he could wait out more edgeguarding attempts than many other characters, bypassing an inherent disadvantage of fast falling characters. We've now adjusted Magnet such that it no longer appreciably stalls Lucas’s fall speed after the first usage.

Finally, we've made some minor edits to PK Thunder 2 itself. We noticed that the hitboxes weren't working in game quite as predicted by our (admittedly, relatively rudimentary) development software, resulting in less protective disjoint than intended. We've now beefed these up slightly to give him a reasonable but not impenetrable disjoint while traveling. Additionally, we've adjusted the starting momentum and friction values to give it a much smoother, more natural feel overall. Lastly, we've slightly reduced the horizontal air drift control Lucas has after PK Thunder 2 ends -- many other moves which grant drift control so quickly after movement has ended also feature minor restrictions to special fall drift control.

Read the whole post here.

Read the previous blog post on tethers here.

It seems to me that the PMDT is following through on their promise to make edgeguarding characters with tethers a safer endeavor. The metagame does seem to be shifting more towards Melee. What do you guys think of the changes to Lucas? Is this a good nerf or is it too harsh of a penalty?

KhanYe is having an eventful first day as a Writer at Smashboards. If you want to welcome me to Smashboards and talk about how scared you are of your main getting nerfed, talk to me on Twitter at @ayyou9.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I think they may have pushed this nerf a little too far, but I do agree that all the changes are at the least sensible.

 

[AlgonquinArto]

New lylat Confirmed

 

[Shin F.]

I'm glad PMBR's changes (From what we've seen) are all reasonable. The way people were talking, I was afraid for a while they'd hit some characters a bit too hard with nerf stick, but they've once again proven they're more than up to the challenge of maintaining excellent balance.

 

[Smashiny]

I saw the pic of lucas on the homepage, and for some reason I thought he just had been confirmed or something for smash 4, gave me a little adrenaline rush

 

[Gene]

New lylat Confirmed

Lylat Cruise?

 

[jtm94]

Alright I can agree with this. They actually seem to have done a really good job on this.

 

[Problem2]

I didn't actually see the distance nerf coming. I didn't even know they could change the tether distance. I thought that was a limitation which is why Ivysaur can grab from so far away.

 

[Scraket]

I feel like this z-air nerf AND the magnet stalling nerf AND the 1 tether per air time nerf AND the lag after the forced jump is all a bit excessive ... especially with how unimpressed I am with the PKT2's current distance... lol maybe I'm just being unreasonable but whatever... still hyped for 3.5!!

 

[Claire Diviner]

Though wishful thinking, let's hope Nintendo can take an example from the PMBR and update/patch Smash 4 consistently when needed. Though, I suppose such dedication would be asking a lot to them.

 

[Captain Zack]

Basically what the PMBR wants to say is.....PLAY FOX AND FALCO MORE

 

[Cool Blue]

I'm glad that the PMBR are taking feedback from the community and putting as much effort as they can in balancing this game. Hopefully 3.5 will blow me away farther than 3.0 did.

 

[\Apples]

Seems perfect to me. Any more and I'd say his recovery is too weak. Any less and I'd say it's way too forgiving.

If players are relying on long distance recoveries to succeed, they're not going to get very far in a competitive environment anyways. Nerfing recoveries in this aspect only provides more incentive to get actually good at the game on stage, which is and always has been more important. Sounds like he'll be more or less as much of a task to edgeguard as spacies, which is pretty ideal. Spacies' recovery design is more than fair, and based on this blog post, Lucas's will probably be as well. It's up to the player to work within limitations to succeed, not work within a lack of limitations and interactivity. That type of environment is stale and boring.

Bravo.

 

[KinGly]

Guess I should say goodbye to my up b wall jump... Oh well, mario will still be really solid.

 

[Knife Myths]

Basically what the PMBR wants to say is.....PLAY FOX AND FALCO MORE

Pretty much, yeah. Any word on them getting adjustments?

 

[Lukingordex]

No free recovery with Magnet + Zair anymore???

 

[Jaedrik]

Me like.

10likes

 

[IceArrow]

Thank you, nerf all tethers even though they are easily beaten.

 

[Osennecho]

Thank you, nerf all tethers even though they are easily beaten.

No
10 Noes
A lot of characters really just can't or the risk ->reward wasn't close to worth it.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Honestly, this is better than anything I could have suggested. The PMBR's approach seems to be, "buff where we can, nerf where we must, nerf with a scalpel, and most of all, keep the game fun."
I appreciate that they're keeping Lucas' core game intact as a whole, while giving him the few nerfs he (imo) deserves.
Curious to hear what Pink Fressh thinks of all this.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

I like the changes they're making to recoveries as a whole. It makes things like shine spiking more viable again.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

I don't disagree that tethers were a bit too great of a recovery tool, but I expect other characters' recoveries which border on being better than or equal to tether recoveries to also be nerfed. *coughsonic *coughmewtwo *coughdiddykong

 

[JOE!]

I don't disagree that tethers were a bit too great of a recovery tool, but I expect other characters' recoveries which border on being better than or equal to tether recoveries to also be nerfed. *coughsonic *coughmewtwo *coughdiddykong

They most likely will be, but Lucas got special treatment here becuase there were technically 3 things they had to change with him

 

[Sardonyx]

I actually agree with the changes to Lucas. His neutral game seems unchanged, as do his punish and combo game. Lucas players just won't get a free recovery anymore, which is how it should be for every character.

 

[SmashShadow]

I think this is a pretty good nerfing honestly. Good job PMBR.

 

[Deleted member]

PMBR said for all the nerfs they're doing, they're going to be buffing to balance it out. How come we haven't seen any news on buffs yet?

 

[KinGly]

PMBR said for all the nerfs they're doing, they're going to be buffing to balance it out. How come we haven't seen any news on buffs yet?

They never said that. They said that even though a character may be nerfed, so will everyone else so they will still be viable.

 

[Kink-Link5]

PMBR said for all the nerfs they're doing, they're going to be buffing to balance it out. How come we haven't seen any news on buffs yet?

Buffing edgeguarding has the same effect as making recoveries more open but has a tendency to cause unintended effects on the on-stage game. Because the PMBR do not want to sully any tech people have been practicing and refining in the neutral and follow-up games, the hit to recoveries solves an important gameplay issue without compromising or "overbuffing" hitboxes, launches, or frame data of moves that also want to be used on stage.

Letting Charizard fight Lucas off stage is a huge buff to the lizard.

 

[L∈O]

@ Lukingordex ...

 

[MasterSavage]

oh boy its like that.

 

[D-idara]

So this game starts to lean more towards Melee, this sucks. Nerfing, overcomplicating things, destroying character's recoveries. Because every match must be played hypee offensive where if you so much as even leave the stage "OMGYOUSHOULDGETKODBECAUSEYOULEFTTHESTAGE!"
Long recoveries are a part of the game, like Sonic's awesome recovery, I guess we should take a page from Smash4 and make all recoveries like Little Mac's, since you seem to hate people recovering from off-stage at all, in-fact, let's make ringouts like Mortal Kombat,
Where they kill you instantly, wouldn't that be more skillfull? You should get punished for trying to recover!

 

[κomıc]

Post almost gave me a heart attack- I thought that was a POTD lol

 

[Alex Night]

Buffing edgeguarding has the same effect as making recoveries more open but has a tendency to cause unintended effects on the on-stage game. Because the PMBR do not want to sully any tech people have been practicing and refining in the neutral and follow-up games, the hit to recoveries solves an important gameplay issue without compromising or "overbuffing" hitboxes, launches, or frame data of moves that also want to be used on stage.

Letting Charizard fight Lucas off stage is a huge buff to the lizard.

Oh god, I can't even begin to describe how much of a chore it is as a Charizard player to fight something like 3.0 Lucas offstage. It was practically dangerous and was more in Lucas' favor than his. It was hard enough fighting him on-stage, so at least Charizard can actually have a place to fight it with an advantage.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Post almost gave me a heart attack- I thought that was a POTD lol

If only.

 

[Sour Supreme]

So this game starts to lean more towards Melee, this sucks. Nerfing, overcomplicating things, destroying character's recoveries. Because every match must be played hypee offensive where if you so much as even leave the stage "OMGYOUSHOULDGETKODBECAUSEYOULEFTTHESTAGE!"
Long recoveries are a part of the game, like Sonic's awesome recovery, I guess we should take a page from Smash4 and make all recoveries like Little Mac's, since you seem to hate people recovering from off-stage at all, in-fact, let's make ringouts like Mortal Kombat,
Where they kill you instantly, wouldn't that be more skillfull? You should get punished for trying to recover!

Woah dude like ur rite we shed make it su that errywan's up-b puts them on a respawn pletferm except they don't loose a stalk. That way u ken recooperate from whrevr ur at. That'll be moar fun.

 

[Wyntir]

IF it works fine... LEAVE IT BE! Besides I hardly see any Lucas mains except 2 or 3 when I'm watching Clash Tournaments or VGBC on YouTube. The time you spend tampering with this... could be making MORE stages for us competitors to COMPETE on... <<< NOW THAT'S AN IDEA

 

[bkslider]

Wow, I am impressed by all the though these guys put into this game. There is so many things I love about Project M, but the balanced approach to all the characters is probably my favorite.

 

[SmashShadow]

So this game starts to lean more towards Melee, this sucks. Nerfing, overcomplicating things, destroying character's recoveries. Because every match must be played hypee offensive where if you so much as even leave the stage "OMGYOUSHOULDGETKODBECAUSEYOULEFTTHESTAGE!"
Long recoveries are a part of the game, like Sonic's awesome recovery, I guess we should take a page from Smash4 and make all recoveries like Little Mac's, since you seem to hate people recovering from off-stage at all, in-fact, let's make ringouts like Mortal Kombat,
Where they kill you instantly, wouldn't that be more skillfull? You should get punished for trying to recover!

I don't see why you're complaining. Is it suddenly wrong now that you have to actually work to get back to the stage. Having characters with extremely long recoveries makes edgegaurding in PM practically non-existent. Last time I checked the saying was "You must recover" and not "You will always recover." You're greatly exaggerating about how bad they're getting nerfed as well. Nobody is gonna end up like Little Mac. Nobody in the game's recovery is that bad. Also, Brawl was the only game with long recoveries. Lucas got the nerfs he deserved and even still, his recovery will still be way better than several characters such as Roy, Ganondorf, Falco, Yoshi, DK, and Captain Falcon.

 

[SmashShadow]

IF it works fine... LEAVE IT BE! Besides I hardly see any Lucas mains except 2 or 3 when I'm watching Clash Tournaments or VGBC on YouTube. The time you spend tampering with this... could be making MORE stages for us competitors to COMPETE on... <<< NOW THAT'S AN IDEA

LOL The idea of there being only a few Lucas mains is hilarious. Seriously, I see more Lucas, Diddy and Mewtwo than any other characters.

 

[Wyntir]

LOL The idea of their being only a few Lucas mains is hilarious. Seriously, I see more Lucas, Diddy and Mewtwo than any other characters.

Speaking of Diddy, saw a great one last night of Junebug (Diddy) VS.. I can't remember the person's name but they used Diddy also in the 3rd round. But I guess it's b'cuz I haven't really clicked on many Lucas vs.. vids. Gotta admit, I enjoy using Lucas rather stupid Ness.