Project M v3.5 Blog #3 on Lucas' Recovery

[Sour Supreme]

"The game you want to play is already available." You told him to quit playing Project M and play Brawl instead solely because of his recovery complaints. The game he wants to play is Project M with changes in recovery. If you meant something else, it's not what you said.

The recoveries he described, ones that easily allow for returns to the stage are present in Brawl, bud.

 

[Zoma]

The other elements of Project M are not.

 

[Sour Supreme]

The other elements of Project M are not.

If you would've paid attention, I said I was no longer referencing Brawl after his second post. I literally just said that.

Gosh man, why are you so hell beant on defending someone whose a nuisance? Especially when you're so uneducated.

I'm done trying to explain this to you. They have a word for the things you've been posting.

 

[Zoma]

That is not how words work. And also, not how games work.

I feel like there is a disconnect between what you think you mean and what you actually said.

 

[Shin F.]

That is not how words work. And also, not how games work.

I feel like there is a disconnect between what you think you mean and what you actually said.

"What you think you mean"

And that's what I'm talking about. You're pushing your own interpretation into his words to form a meaning that is not there. The disconnect is not with Psykid, it's with you.

If you want an example of you taking his words and misinterpreting them:

You're not a casual player, you're an Everything In This Game Should Be About As Easy as Wiping My A*ss player.

Project M: Easy enough to wipe your *** with, and exactly the same as Brawl. You heard it here first, folks.

 

[Zoma]

Hahaha.

He said, after someone complained that they would SD with worse recoveries, that the game they want to play already exists. It's called Brawl.

The literal interpretation here is that Brawl and Project M are interchangeable. The figurative interpretation is that he's being needlessly insulting, which was my point.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Hahaha.

He said, after someone complained that they would SD with worse recoveries, that the game they want to play already exists. It's called Brawl.

The literal interpretation here is that Brawl and Project M are interchangeable. The figurative interpretation is that he's being needlessly insulting, which was my point.

Actually, D-idara said that he SD'd a lot in MELEE because of how fast you fall, and Psykid said that if he wants a game with a slower falling speed, he can play Brawl. We can confirm he owns Brawl or at least has a strong enough computer to emulate it through his posting history where he says he has played Project M, which requires Brawl to play.

 

[Zoma]

Are we still in the context of this thread?

 

[Shin F.]

Hahaha.

He said, after someone complained that they would SD with worse recoveries, that the game they want to play already exists. It's called Brawl.

The literal interpretation here is that Brawl and Project M are interchangeable. The figurative interpretation is that he's being needlessly insulting, which was my point.

And the actual meaning is one for which context - which you are sorely lacking - is needed: D-idara has complained in the past about many of the changes from Brawl to PM. This is not an isolated incident, and you are making conclusions and pointing fingers without all the information. With this context, the meaning becomes: If you hate all these changes the Project M team is making, then play a game more suited to what it is that you want. (IE Brawl).

Are we still in the context of this thread?

Oh, my... I'm afraid this is exactly what I was talking about. It was never a context that existed solely in this thread.

 

[Rᴏb]

"GUYS, YOU CAN'T JUDGE SMASH 4 CAUSE IT'S NOT OUT YET!!!"
"THE NEXT UPDATE OF PM IS NERFING RECOVERIES? LET ME ***** ABOUT IT BEFORE ACTUALLY PLAYING IT!!!"

Smashboards is ****ing hilarious.

 

[Zoma]

And the actual meaning is one for which context - which you are sorely lacking - is needed: D-idara has complained in the past about many of the changes from Brawl to PM. This is not an isolated incident, and you are making conclusions and pointing fingers without all the information. With this context, the meaning becomes: If you hate all these changes the Project M team is making, then play a game more suited to what it is that you want. (IE Brawl).

Oh, my... I'm afraid this is exactly what I was talking about. It was never a context that existed solely in this thread.

The meaning is still Psykid being needlessly offensive.

This is getting tiresome. That was not aimed at you. I wanted clarification from QQQQQQQ7777777 about their post, specifically.

 

[Sour Supreme]

The meaning is still Psykid being needlessly offensive.

This is getting tiresome. That was not aimed at you. I wanted clarification from QQQQQQQ7777777 about their post, specifically.

I'm not being needlessly offensive. Any offense I portrayed was in retaliation to D-idara's needless salt.

You're literally defending the person who was needlessly offensive, lol.

 

[Zoma]

As you've pointed out (many times), I don't have all of the outside context. But D-idara was in no way offensive here, unless you think that complaining about PM is a direct insult to you.

Meanwhile, if he's been offensive before, there's still no reason for you to try to start a fight with him here just because he's complaining about the game.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

By the definition of context, we are still very much in it. We've merely branched out into other topics relating to the context. Also, the person who started this shift in topic was not Psykid, it was D-idara.

 

[Zoma]

Sorry, what I meant was, are you saying all of that happened in this thread?

Although, I'd rather not get back into it. So, never mind, I guess?

 

[Lukingordex]

I love those pointless discussions that starts form pointless posts that everyone should have ignored before, they're always fun to read and smashboards have a lot of it.

 

[Sour Supreme]

I love those pointless discussions that starts form pointless posts that everyone should have ignored before, they're always fun to read and smashboards have a lot of it.

That's pretty neat.

 

[TFerg]

These changes are pretty excellent imo. Great stuff PM

 

[D-idara]

By the definition of context, we are still very much in it. We've merely branched out into other topics relating to the context. Also, the person who started this shift in topic was not Psykid, it was D-idara.

So praising the almighty Melee gods for making the game harder is perfectly fine, but complaining because you think the shouldn't be harder is frowned upon? Totally not biased at all.

I don't see what's the obsession with putting the recovering player at such a huge disadvantage, like they're supposed to lose the stock...they're not! I mean, in Melee, if you get even barely blown away, you're pretty much dead because 90% of recoveries are absolute trash. Why should that be considered a good thing?

I guess PM has rubbed some Melee on me, because I refuse to move on to a game I'll enjoy less, I'll choose to be stuck in the 3.02 past, where you can still recover without having to react in a milisecond.

"GUYS, YOU CAN'T JUDGE SMASH 4 CAUSE IT'S NOT OUT YET!!!"
"THE NEXT UPDATE OF PM IS NERFING RECOVERIES? LET ME ***** ABOUT IT BEFORE ACTUALLY PLAYING IT!!!"

Smashboards is ****ing hilarious.

"Everything againist Melee is fanboys being hopeful, everything pro-Melee is true and godlike (And clunky and sloppy)."

So there can't be more forgiving characters for people who SD a lot? Everything has to be super hard, super offensive and super as obnoxiously fast as Melee?

 

[josh bones]

So praising the almighty Melee gods for making the game harder is perfectly fine, but complaining because you think the shouldn't be harder is frowned upon? Totally not biased at all.

I don't see what's the obsession with putting the recovering player at such a huge disadvantage, like they're supposed to lose the stock...they're not! I mean, in Melee, if you get even barely blown away, you're pretty much dead because 90% of recoveries are absolute trash. Why should that be considered a good thing?

I guess PM has rubbed some Melee on me, because I refuse to move on to a game I'll enjoy less, I'll choose to be stuck in the 3.02 past, where you can still recover without having to react in a milisecond.

"Everything againist Melee is fanboys being hopeful, everything pro-Melee is true and godlike (And clunky and sloppy)."

So there can't be more forgiving characters for people who SD a lot? Everything has to be super hard, super offensive and super as obnoxiously fast as Melee?

Recoveries arn't supposed to be easy, what you want is for people to be teleported back to the stage wthout any hassle, because of that edgegaurding doesnt matter against guys like who can come from japan to new york in 3 seconds. We want you to work for your recovery.

 

[D-idara]

Recoveries arn't supposed to be easy, what you want is for people to be teleported back to the stage wthout any hassle, because of that edgegaurding doesnt matter against guys like diddy who can come from japan to new york in 3 seconds. We want you to work for your recovery.

And I don't want to 3.2 for me. I don't want to TRY to recover, I want to know I can recover.

 

[josh bones]

And I don't want to 3.2 for me. I don't want to TRY to recover, I want to know I can recover.

So you want edgeguarding to be nonexistant, characters like to be nerfed, and to runs rampant?

 

[D-idara]

So you want edgeguarding to be nonexistant, characters like to be nerfed, and to runs rampant?

First, yes, second and third, no.

 

[josh bones]

First, yes, second and third, no.

Why do you hate edgeguarding so much? We're not supposed to ponder the mysteries of life while someone is recovering, but we essentialy do that with the current recovery system, and that makes characters who are very edgeguard heavy like and worse while making recovery heavy characters like and better, that's why it needs changing.
The problem I see here is you want everything done for you, you want to recover with nobody stopping you as if you were playing single player.

 

[NickLeo]

First, yes, second and third, no.

I have a solution, just play on stages with walk-offs
Huzzah, no more edgeguarding

 

[Rᴏb]

"Everything againist Melee is fanboys being hopeful, everything pro-Melee is true and godlike (And clunky and sloppy)."

So there can't be more forgiving characters for people who SD a lot? Everything has to be super hard, super offensive and super as obnoxiously fast as Melee?

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said at all. Lol

 

[Sen. Sawft]

This thread is made of pure gold.
And anger.
Mostly anger.

 

[InfamousLuffy]

Yea cause Tethers are op ;-;

 

[U-Throw]

So praising the almighty Melee gods for making the game harder is perfectly fine, but complaining because you think the shouldn't be harder is frowned upon? Totally not biased at all.

I don't see what's the obsession with putting the recovering player at such a huge disadvantage, like they're supposed to lose the stock...they're not! I mean, in Melee, if you get even barely blown away, you're pretty much dead because 90% of recoveries are absolute trash. Why should that be considered a good thing?

I guess PM has rubbed some Melee on me, because I refuse to move on to a game I'll enjoy less, I'll choose to be stuck in the 3.02 past, where you can still recover without having to react in a milisecond.

"Everything againist Melee is fanboys being hopeful, everything pro-Melee is true and godlike (And clunky and sloppy)."

So there can't be more forgiving characters for people who SD a lot? Everything has to be super hard, super offensive and super as obnoxiously fast as Melee?

And I don't want to 3.2 for me. I don't want to TRY to recover, I want to know I can recover.

We want you to know you can recover, too. But if you know you can do something, you have to try to do it. If you're gonna jump across a cliff and you KNOW you can do it, then you can, but you still have to get a running start and use your leg muscles to leap forward. You have to TRY. What you're asking for, and correct me if I'm wrong, is for you to be teleported straight back onto stage because, if I read correctly, you don't want TRY. It's good that characters should be able to be knocked so far off they can't recover UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. Should characters always have that happen to them? No. Otherwise, the game wouldn't be any fun. But if a character were always able to recover, KOs would probably be non-existent, save for off-the-top KOs. Characters should be able to recover UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, but not always, and certainly not without TRYING. Just because you lack skill does not mean you deserve an easier game. What it means is you deserve what you got so that you can learn from your mistakes and get better at the game. And what's wrong with edgeguarding? Without it, there would be a lot less KOs, since the only way to KO someone off the edge would be to either slam them so hard they hit the side blast line, or hit them so far out they can't recover. But wait, you think everyone should be able to recover easily, so the only off-the-edge KOs would be abnormally powerful ones, which would allow powerful, heavy characters like Bowser to run the show because they'd just slap everyone off and they are more than a little hard to star KO. At least right now we can balance characters like Lucas and Mewtwo, but with your proposed system, powerful characters would have to be weakened substantially and every stage would, in essence, be a walk-off. And then Smash basically turns into Streetfighter without a health bar. Good lord, what is it that you want? Go play Streetfighter if that's what you want. Just leave us alone. I tried to refrain from insults in my last post, but good God. You sound like a 2-year old whose terrible at the game and gets edgeguarded a lot and instead of gathering the necessary skill to prevent an edgeguard and TRYING and WORKING to get better at the game like the rest of us do, you expect the PMDT to spoon-feed you an easier game. Well, news flash, it's not gonna happen. Stop whining and complaining and actually work for what you want. You have to do that in practically everything in life and Smash is no exception. Now grow up, for all our sakes.

 

[D-idara]

We want you to know you can recover, too. But if you know you can do something, you have to try to do it. If you're gonna jump across a cliff and you KNOW you can do it, then you can, but you still have to get a running start and use your leg muscles to leap forward. You have to TRY. What you're asking for, and correct me if I'm wrong, is for you to be teleported straight back onto stage because, if I read correctly, you don't want TRY. It's good that characters should be able to be knocked so far off they can't recover UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. Should characters always have that happen to them? No. Otherwise, the game wouldn't be any fun. But if a character were always able to recover, KOs would probably be non-existent, save for off-the-top KOs. Characters should be able to recover UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, but not always, and certainly not without TRYING. Just because you lack skill does not mean you deserve an easier game. What it means is you deserve what you got so that you can learn from your mistakes and get better at the game. And what's wrong with edgeguarding? Without it, there would be a lot less KOs, since the only way to KO someone off the edge would be to either slam them so hard they hit the side blast line, or hit them so far out they can't recover. But wait, you think everyone should be able to recover easily, so the only off-the-edge KOs would be abnormally powerful ones, which would allow powerful, heavy characters like Bowser to run the show because they'd just slap everyone off and they are more than a little hard to star KO. At least right now we can balance characters like Lucas and Mewtwo, but with your proposed system, powerful characters would have to be weakened substantially and every stage would, in essence, be a walk-off. And then Smash basically turns into Streetfighter without a health bar. Good lord, what is it that you want? Go play Streetfighter if that's what you want. Just leave us alone. I tried to refrain from insults in my last post, but good God. You sound like a 2-year old whose terrible at the game and gets edgeguarded a lot and instead of gathering the necessary skill to prevent an edgeguard and TRYING and WORKING to get better at the game like the rest of us do, you expect the PMDT to spoon-feed you an easier game. Well, news flash, it's not gonna happen. Stop whining and complaining and actually work for what you want. You have to do that in practically everything in life and Smash is no exception. Now grow up, for all our sakes.

You grow up, please, I absolutely hate Street Fighter, again, for being unreasonably hard. And I'm not saying you should automatically recover, I've never said that, I'm saying that recovering shouldn't be so hard or super-punishable, because the person off the ledge shouldn't be at such a HUGE disadvantage.

Another thing, there's nothing wrong with some characters having extra-safe recoveries and some others having extra-crappy one, because the PMBR mostly knows how to balance around a character's weaknesses and strengths (Until now, that is...) I don't want Melee, PM's fine even for those who don't care about competitive play, but PM 3.5's not going to be fine for those who don't care about competitive play, it's going to be a gimpfest with 0 actual knockback-based KOs.

Look, the game should be super-easy to control and play, that's the whole point of Smash, easy to play, hard to master, this is hard to play and hard to master, since recoveries are such a main part of the game, making them harder to execute automatically makes the game MUCH harder, especially for newcomers who still can't do things like B-Reversal, L-Cancel (Which should be removed BTW), SHFLL...etc. If you make even recovering a chore, you're actually making the game MUCH, MUCH harder.

I'm gonna say it a little less inflammatory: I think the exceptionally fast falling speeds, the harder and much smaller ledge sweetspot, the fact that you can't grab ledges facing backwards and some recoveries being outright destroyed like Pit's, ROB's, Toon Link's (It's better horizontally, but it's vertical distance is just atrocious), it still baffles me how they didn't completely mutilate decent recoveries like Sonic's and Snake's.

I just think 3.2 has the right amount of difficulty.

And please stop with this 'you've got to work for things, just like life' bull**** because many people who want the game to be easier DO work for things in life, they just don't want to do it for a videogame that has 'easy-to-learn' as the MAIN DESIGN PRINCIPLE. Life is tough, Smash is specially designed to not be.

 

[Xinc]

PMDT Should probably be wary about who they nerf with recoveries. Some characters have a need to stall because otherwise their recoveries are a bit lackluster, right? *looking at you, Marth and Roy*

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

You grow up, please, I absolutely hate Street Fighter, again, for being unreasonably hard. And I'm not saying you should automatically recover, I've never said that, I'm saying that recovering shouldn't be so hard or super-punishable, because the person off the ledge shouldn't be at such a HUGE disadvantage.

Another thing, there's nothing wrong with some characters having extra-safe recoveries and some others having extra-crappy one, because the PMBR mostly knows how to balance around a character's weaknesses and strengths (Until now, that is...) I don't want Melee, PM's fine even for those who don't care about competitive play, but PM 3.5's not going to be fine for those who don't care about competitive play, it's going to be a gimpfest with 0 actual knockback-based KOs.

Look, the game should be super-easy to control and play, that's the whole point of Smash, easy to play, hard to master, this is hard to play and hard to master, since recoveries are such a main part of the game, making them harder to execute automatically makes the game MUCH harder, especially for newcomers who still can't do things like B-Reversal, L-Cancel (Which should be removed BTW), SHFLL...etc. If you make even recovering a chore, you're actually making the game MUCH, MUCH harder.

I'm gonna say it a little less inflammatory: I think the exceptionally fast falling speeds, the harder and much smaller ledge sweetspot, the fact that you can't grab ledges facing backwards and some recoveries being outright destroyed like Pit's, ROB's, Toon Link's (It's better horizontally, but it's vertical distance is just atrocious), it still baffles me how they didn't completely mutilate decent recoveries like Sonic's and Snake's.

I just think 3.2 has the right amount of difficulty.

And please stop with this 'you've got to work for things, just like life' bull**** because many people who want the game to be easier DO work for things in life, they just don't want to do it for a videogame that has 'easy-to-learn' as the MAIN DESIGN PRINCIPLE. Life is tough, Smash is specially designed to not be.

I tried to refrain from saying this.
I really did.

If you think this would make recoveries too hard, then you just suck at the game. Every Smash has been easy to learn. Project M 3.5 will be no exception. You never NEED to learn how to L-cancel to have fun with this game. Likewise, you never NEED to be able to recover from the depths of hell every single time to enjoy the game.

These aren't even hard nerfs that you're making them out to be. They're modest tweaks. 90% of the cast will still have better recoveries than Captain Falcon. If a FEW MINUTE TWEAKS on a HANDFUL of characters is enough to ruin your experience, then by all means, play something else.

"But the PMDT is stupid. All they have to do is conform to MY ideals for this to be a fun game. I probably only play this game once or twice a month, but I still know better than these idiots."

-D-idara

 

[Xermo]

I love smashboards.

 

[Ganobrator]

I agree 100% with most of the changes here. Lucas's magnet stall is absolutely ridiculous sometimes.

 

[Doctor X]

I want everyone to appreciate the strangeness of this situation for a moment. Here we have someone who, without a shred of self-awareness, can criticize Project M-- a mod that was specifically intended to create a true spiritual successor to Melee-- for being too much like Melee.

Bear in mind, also, that Project M is provided for free and exists only because of the passion of its creators and community, and this person has the audacity to cry foul and pontificate about what smash bros is "supposed" to be, as if the developers (who, again, work for free) are under some kind of obligation.

I mean, holy crap, dude. Can someone really be that out of touch with reality?

@ D-idara : Competitive gaming is hard. Other people want to win just as bad as you do, and you have to struggle like hell to keep up. This is true no matter how easy or difficult the game itself is to control. It is true of Brawl, just as it is true of Street Fighter.

This struggle isn't just a feature of competitive play, it is the reason competitive play exists. We enjoy the struggle. It lends value to our accomplishments and increases our appreciation of the game's nuances. You might understand this, if you weren't the kind of childish-minded individual who values shiny trophies over the hard-won victories they're supposed to represent.

Edit: Also on topic... As a Lucas main I see these changes as completely reasonable. I'm looking forward to 3.5.

 

[Alex Night]

I feel like I might be the only one who has his eyes on the edgeguarders as much as the recovering character, considering I have looked at this...

• Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding.

Honestly, I do agree (except the 50 frame forced hop; 50 frames is horrendously punishable even for something very useful like tethers) with the changes proposed so far from the PMBR, especially on the subject of Lucas who is equally as dangerous trying to recover as he is on stage. That being said, I'm more concerned about characters having it too easy on the stage to edge-guard... *cough Pit cough*

 

[D-idara]

I want everyone to appreciate the strangeness of this situation for a moment. Here we have someone who, without a shred of self-awareness, can criticize Project M-- a mod that was specifically intended to create a true spiritual successor to Melee-- for being too much like Melee.

Bear in mind, also, that Project M is provided for free and exists only because of the passion of its creators and community, and this person has the audacity to cry foul and pontificate about what smash bros is "supposed" to be, as if the developers (who, again, work for free) are under some kind of obligation.

I mean, holy crap, dude. Can someone really be that out of touch with reality?

@ D-idara : Competitive gaming is hard. Other people want to win just as bad as you do, and you have to struggle like hell to keep up. This is true no matter how easy or difficult the game itself is to control. It is true of Brawl, just as it is true of Street Fighter.

This struggle isn't just a feature of competitive play, it is the reason competitive play exists. We enjoy the struggle. It lends value to our accomplishments and increases our appreciation of the game's nuances. You might understand this, if you weren't the kind of childish-minded individual who values shiny trophies over the hard-won victories they're supposed to represent.

Edit: Also on topic... As a Lucas main I see these changes as completely reasonable. I'm looking forward to 3.5.

I'm not a childish-minded individual, why should anyone enjoy struggling if they're going to lose in the end anyway, there's no way to become a pro anymore because the pros destroy you.

I don't enjoy getting tossed around by people who are better at the game than me, how am I supposed to learn about my mistakes when I'm flaming with rage because my recovery didn't do what it was intended to do?

Super hard games trump learning and getting better for people who are easily angered.

Look, I get it, you like the struggle, I don't, there's nothing wrong with me not liking it, some people don't accept or like bumps and obstacles. We'd rather turn around or walk around them that actually clear them.

 

[Doctor X]

I'm not a childish-minded individual, why should anyone enjoy struggling if they're going to lose in the end anyway, there's no way to become a pro anymore because the pros destroy you.

That's exactly the childish attitude I was talking about. To you, it's about whether or not the game displays a win, and not about how well you had to play in order to win, or how rewarding it is to play that well. You don't realize that there's a huge range of skill levels in the community against which to measure yourself. It isn't just "pros" and "not pros." You can find yourself enjoying even the most modest success, if you have the right mindset.

I don't enjoy getting tossed around by people who are better at the game than me, how am I supposed to learn about my mistakes when I'm flaming with rage because my recovery didn't do what it was intended to do?

If a recovery is intended to get you back to the stage, no matter what, regardless of how bad you are at using it and how experienced your opponent might be, then you might say that. But in Melee, and by extension PM, recoveries are not designed with this intention.

Super hard games trump learning and getting better for people who are easily angered.

Giving up is what trumps learning and getting better. This is your personal problem and has nothing to do with the game.

Look, I get it, you like the struggle, I don't, there's nothing wrong with me not liking it,

If you don't like it, you're not a competitive gamer. That's fine, not everyone has to be. Most people aren't, and that's ok. But PM is made first and foremost for competitive gamers. If you don't like that, you shouldn't expect the mod to change for you, because it won't.

some people don't accept or like bumps and obstacles. We'd rather turn around or walk around them that actually clear them.

In a competitive game, your primary obstacle is your opponent, not the game. You can't just walk around them unless you're way, way better than they are, and turning around is the same as quitting. Again, if you can't handle being challenged, competitive games are not for you.

 

[D-idara]

That's exactly the childish attitude I was talking about. To you, it's about whether or not the game displays a win, and not about how well you had to play in order to win, or how rewarding it is to play that well. You don't realize that there's a huge range of skill levels in the community against which to measure yourself. It isn't just "pros" and "not pros." You can find yourself enjoying even the most modest success, if you have the right mindset.

If a recovery is intended to get you back to the stage, no matter what, regardless of how bad you are at using it and how experienced your opponent might be, then you might say that. But in Melee, and by extension PM, recoveries are not designed with this intention.

Giving up is what trumps learning and getting better. This is your personal problem and has nothing to do with the game.

If you don't like it, you're not a competitive gamer. That's fine, not everyone has to be. Most people aren't, and that's ok. But PM is made first and foremost for competitive gamers. If you don't like that, you shouldn't expect the mod to change for you, because it won't.

In a competitive game, your primary obstacle is your opponent, not the game. You can't just walk around them unless you're way, way better than they are, and turning around is the same as quitting. Again, if you can't handle being challenged, competitive games are not for you.

PM's also fun for non-competitive gamers...or at least was. We casuals (Although I mostly do 'serious' matches now with friends) also love Project M because unlike the Melee etilists, we see it as an upgrade to a game we already love, not Melee plastered over a game that's better than Melee.

Maybe I'm making it out to be a bigger deal than it actually is...but this could be the first step towards the horridness of a super-hard Smash Bros., what if they make the L-Cancel window smaller even though the only tweak L-Cancel needs is not existing!?

And enjoying small successes feels shallow, yes, maybe I beat a friend who's better at the game than me, and maybe I feel satisfied, but if he's not a 'pro' then I'm not really good, only better than him, no matter how good you get, there's always going to be someone a million times better than you, so then what's the point of getting good if you're never gonna reach the top? And even if you do, someone will probably surpass you if you don't keep improving, what's the point of competition?

The only reason I could ever find to get better has to be the hatred and bitterness that losing to someone better causes. And if you practice out of bitterness and hate, you're not having fun, defeating the purpose of the game.

In a competitive game, your primary obstacle is your opponent, not the game.

I can't believe you're saying that with a straight face:

Let's say there are 10 levels of Smash Bros. players...while you believe 2 to 9 have some merit, I believe that only 10's worth anything, and if I can't reach that 10 inmediately, then I'm not willing to go from 1 to 9 to get there.

TL;DR: I want to win, how or how hard it was or how well I played? I don't really care about those. And that's not childish, people like the prize, the trophy, the gratification, the struggle's a sacrifice, something unpleasant you have to through to get there, and most people would forgo the sacrifice if they could.

 

[Doctor X]

PM's also fun for non-competitive gamers...or at least was.

We casuals (Although I mostly do 'serious' matches now with friends) also love Project M because unlike the Melee etilists, we see it as an upgrade to a game we already love, not Melee plastered over a game that's better than Melee.

At no point in PM's development history has casual play ever taken precedence over the desires of the competitive community. It's great that casuals can have fun with it, but it will not abandon its ideas for what makes a great competitive game. Doing so would compromise the entire reason the project exists. Either accept that and continue having fun with the parts you enjoy, or play a different game. Those are your choices.

And enjoying small successes feels shallow, yes, maybe I beat a friend who's better at the game than me, and maybe I feel satisfied, but if he's not a 'pro' then I'm not really good, only better than him, no matter how good you get, there's always going to be someone a million times better than you, so then what's the point of getting good if you're never gonna reach the top? And even if you do, someone will probably surpass you if you don't keep improving, what's the point of competition?

Man, this is like asking, "if it's just going to cool the air in your house, what's the point of air conditioning?" Improvement is the point of competition. By competing, we learn things about the game that we would never know otherwise. We get to witness, and fully appreciate, the most exciting interactions the game has to offer.

Games die when the players stop striving to improve. If you show me a game where someone complacent sits at the top, you're showing me a dead game.

The only reason I could ever find to get better has to be the hatred and bitterness that losing to someone better causes. And if you practice out of bitterness and hate, you're not having fun, defeating the purpose of the game.

Again, childish. Normally when people grow up they're supposed to learn the concept of sportsmanship-- where you admire strong play and respect those who display it, instead of hating them for not letting you win easily.

I can't believe you're saying that with a straight face:

Compared to fighting against a competent opponent who wants to win just as badly as you do? None of that is even remotely difficult. You would know this if you tried either.

Let's say there are 10 levels of Smash Bros. players...while you believe 2 to 9 have some merit, I believe that only 10's worth anything, and if I can't reach that 10 inmediately, then I'm not willing to go from 1 to 9 to get there.

So you call 8 levels of play between 1 and 10 "worthless." That's an interesting stance for someone who calls other people "elitists."

Nevermind that, though. If you're not willing to go from 1 to 9, you will never reach 10. Ever. You won't do it in Brawl. You won't do it in Smash 4. You won't do it in PM. It just isn't possible with that mindset.

I'm telling you this not to make fun of you, but to help you understand. Believe me, when you accept this, you will be happier-- either by continuing to play casually without illusions, or as an actual competitive player with the grace to shake hands and learn from losses.