Project M Social Thread

[Jolteon]

Press one of the trigger buttons before you hit the floor. You can choose a direction with the control stick.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't think BrandX ever played Melee competitively.

Teching is similar to L-cancelling, except it only works when you're in your tumble animation. Right before you hit the ground, press a trigger button (or whatever you have set to Shield). You will flip upright instantly. If you hold left or right when doing it, you will techroll in the direction you held. However, there are a couple of things you should know about teching:

1. Teching gives you a bit of invincibility during the beginning of the action. However...
2. Near the end of the animation, you are completely vulnerable, yet STUCK in the animation until it ends. Teching has NO interruptible frames. This is the very basis of what's called "tech-chasing".

Teching can help you avoid follow-ups and generally gives your opponent less time to decide what to do, but don't be predictable with them, because techs are actually just as punishable as regular rolls if they're predicted. Some techs can even be reacted to.

 

[Oro?!]

Teching creates a guessing or reaction game where you have 4 options to deal with;
no tech, tech in place, tech roll left, tech roll right.
After a certain amount of time on missed tech, you can stand up, get up attack, roll left, or roll right.

All tech options have the ability to be punished and missed tech has a bigger punish window than any other option. Tech chasing is a very core element of early damage racking as well as extending combos since if done correctly there is nothing your opponent can do about it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

DMG, he's new to serious smash, not just project m.
hit a shoulder button twenty frames before your character hits the ground.
Unless you're using custom controls, in which case its whatever you shield with.

 

[BrandX]

Thanks everyone! I'll be sure to try that the next time my friend comes over to play!

Also yeah DMG, I'm kinda new to this whole thing ^^;

 

[iLink]

Works the same as Melee. Against Ganon's Flame Choke, you can tech/techroll the part where he releases you and you land to the ground. Helps deal with some of his options afterwards.

As in, unnecessarily annoying, or just annoying to look at?

 

[Juno McGrath]

Ganon's options after side be are CRAZY.

that character is soooooo gehhhhhhhhhh imo. Not like OP or anything, just cheesy.

 

[bubbaking]

@BrandX: Definitely get used to teching some things on reaction. If your opponent notices that you don't tech much, he can perform a really nasty set-up called a "jab reset" (also called a "forced get-up"). Now, I know 'resets' are totally different in FGs because they actually do what the name implies (take advantage of a situation where both the attacker and the defender have been 'reset' to neutral). However, in Smash, they also 'reset' you, but in a different way.

Basically, if you miss your tech, your opponent can hit you with a weak attack during your initial ground bounce (usually a jab). You are then FORCED to stand up normally (the 'reset'). You aren't allowed to roll and you aren't allowed to get-up attack. You're simply forced to stand up (hence the name "forced get-up"). Just like any other get-up option, you have a little bit of invincibility when you begin standing up, but near the end of the animation, you're completely vulnerable, and since you're forced to pick this one get-up action at the very moment that you were jabbed, it's a piece of cake to react to this get-up with almost ANYTHING in the world one could want.

Now, if the opponent hits you with a weak attack AFTER the ground bounce, you'll still be forced to get up, but this time, you get to pick between one of your four options (roll left, roll right, stand up, or get-up attack) as long as you were inputting that action while you were being hit. If you weren't inputting anything, you'll be forced to stand up normally as if you had been jab reset. Jab resets are a VERY important part of tech-chasing and you should definitely make sure to avoid them being done to you like the plague. For now, just tech everything you can. You'll pick up over time when it might be a better idea not to tech, but right now, it's better to avoid all the follow-ups on missed techs.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

@ Juno - Eh thats a bit of an exaggeration, but the down b follow up is admittedly pretty dumb, because it pretty much covers 3 options.

 

[bubbaking]

You can easily cover all four by just reacting with another sideB, especially if you used an aerial sideB.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Thats true you can do that to build percent, plus its really disjointed so its pretty easy, but why build more percent when you can get a guaranteed kill.

 

[DMG]

As in, unnecessarily annoying, or just annoying to look at?

Kinda both LOL. Like again, you had some very great uses for it. Approaching someone in the air, and crossing them up on shield by charging AS is good. Going into AS, then cancelling that and repositioning for the hit during a combo, all of that kind of stuff is useful and good. But there were times that it was either unneccesary or its one of those "really man?" moments lol. Like you Fsmash at someone, and whether it hits their shield or hits them you're now automatically charging AS. Or Jab 1-2 into AS right in their face. Like I know they nerfed Dash Attack and Side B and stuff, but cmon man! Lol.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh, well if the opponent is at death %'s, then sure, go for the kill!

Tbh, I don't know why I don't just go for Wizard's Foot with most of my TCs. I always try to get a hard-read stomp or DACUS or something when the good ol' Foot probably would have been just fine.

 

[KayB]

Slightly off topic, but...

I want this song to be a brstm for DC. Or Lavender town. lol.

I always like to tech-chase with side-b. Never actually thought of using WF until now.

 

[Juno McGrath]

You can easily cover all four by just reacting with another sideB, especially if you used an aerial sideB.

Like, this combined with how much knockback and how many options are covered by down B just make my head spin, like when I play gannon i literally just side b all the time and I kinda roll people.

 

[bubbaking]

Or Jab 1-2 into AS right in their face. Like I know they nerfed Dash Attack and Side B and stuff, but cmon man! Lol.

Actually, I kinda like jab strings into ASC because it can lead into grabs. The ASC holds the opponent in place if it's spaced right so he doesn't fly off. Same goes for tilts into ASC at low %'s. Jab 1 > jab 2 > ASC > grab. It's kinda similar to Sonic's Spindash charge > grab.

Edit: Idk if you're talking about on-hit or on-shield, though. On-shield might be a different story altogether.

 

[iLink]

Kinda both LOL. Like again, you had some very great uses for it. Approaching someone in the air, and crossing them up on shield by charging AS is good. Going into AS, then cancelling that and repositioning for the hit during a combo, all of that kind of stuff is useful and good. But there were times that it was either unneccesary or its one of those "really man?" moments lol. Like you Fsmash at someone, and whether it hits their shield or hits them you're now automatically charging AS. Or Jab 1-2 into AS right in their face. Like I know they nerfed Dash Attack and Side B and stuff, but cmon man! Lol.

There's really no reason not to cancel his fsmash or dsmash with AS considering its more frame advantage then just waiting for it to finish. Only time i'll do something else is when I see if its more appropriate to do downb or upb instead.

The 2 jabs > AS in their face is just to see how they respond or if I should even continue the string at all. Sometimes its me just trying to do jab jab > ASC > grab and messing up lol.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Oh, well if the opponent is at death %'s, then sure, go for the kill!

Tbh, I don't know why I don't just go for Wizard's Foot with most of my TCs. I always try to get a hard-read stomp or DACUS or something when the good ol' Foot probably would have been just fine.

Because its way cooler to DACUS someone or stomp them into the ground as opposed to just giving them the boot, lol its really hard to resist.

 

[standardtoaster]

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

donation drive is going strong and so is chillin's wolf!

 

[Translucent]

Is there anyone who could create a database like the one on smashmods for 2.5?

 

[Magus420]

LOL at "reacting" with an aerial side-b. That grabs on frame 22 (6+16), tech stands are 26, and even if you ignore reaction time completely (which would be higher than the simple basic reaction time people like to quote for this sort of on-reaction theory stuff mind you) the animations aren't even distinct enough by the 4th frame in most cases to tell them apart.

If you're saying ground side-b after an aerial one, it wouldn't be any easier than if the previous was grounded side-b. Ground one actually keeps them closer to you anyway, and the lag after they hit the floor on it is only a few frames and well before you'd be deciding where to go. Ground one is still grabbing on 16 at the earliest (the pull back can make it take even longer), which is too damn slow to be doing on reaction. Standing grabs (7) on tech stands aren't very easy as it is.

 

[bubbaking]

Magus, it isn't theory if I do it in practice.

You cite frame data, but let me ask you this: If the tech is 4 frames slower than the aerial sideB, then what is the opponent supposed to do reliably? Since it's a grab, it beats shields, and in my experience, it also beats out spot-dodges and a LOT of attacks for some reason. I'd actually like to know what the opponent can do so I can keep it in mind, because I personally have trouble getting away from Ganon's sideB (anyone remember that vid Leelue posted a while ago? ), and all of my knee-jerk reaction stuff usually don't get me out reliably, so this isn't really a challenge, so much as it is a quest to obtain information.

Also, standing grabs on tech-stands are pretty darn easy. I even do it with Samus and her grab is ***. Zard's re-grab on tech-stands out of dthrow was also was stupidly easy until you guys decided to nerf the throw.

Edit: Btw, human reaction time ranges from 10-12 frames, so how the heck is the grounded upB "too damn slow to be doing on reaction"?

 

[DMG]

You can punish techs in place with another Side B, but only if you do the move quickly as in you've already read the tech in place. You can't on reaction do the aerial one and get it. Down B out of Flame choke is overall the best option and only tends to not cover tech rolling inside Ganon/DI behind him.

On floatier characters, if they don't tech the aerial version, you can get a free grab/hit afterwards. It's so fun.

 

[Oro?!]

It isn't reacting if there is just like a 4 frame recognition window that really won't give you a visual cue on which option to cover. Most likely it's your tech patterns being terrible or readable that lead to you getting regrabbed 10000000000 times.

 

[bubbaking]

Oro, read my post properly. It's not the tech itself that gets punished. It's my options AFTER the tech that I have trouble with. For example, if Ivy techs successfully without it being punished but Ganon is already hurtling towards her, what is she supposed to do that won't be beat out by the sideB grab? If you can cover even the shield and spot-dodge actions, you're allowed to be a little late. That's the basis of my question. If the tech is already 4 frames slower, what can one reliably do against a fast-moving command grab? That's what I would like to know for my own betterment.

There's really no reason not to cancel his fsmash or dsmash with AS considering its more frame advantage then just waiting for it to finish. Only time i'll do something else is when I see if its more appropriate to do downb or upb instead.

Actually, I seem to recall reading somewhere that Lucario's ASC out of shield pressue is actually punishable with a shieldgrab if it's read/predicted. I think it may have been that post of Magus' on Smods where he talked about some of the quirks of 2.5 Lucario.

 

[iLink]

Actually, I seem to recall reading somewhere that Lucario's ASC out of shield pressue is actually punishable with a shieldgrab if it's read/predicted. I think it may have been that post of Magus' on Smods where he talked about some of the quirks of 2.5 Lucario.

You are probably thinking of something else or not understand the situation we are talking about.

Fsmash > ASC is definitely faster then just waiting for it to end. Both on block and hit.

 

[Magus420]

It's pretty clear you don't understand what on reaction means or are talking out of your *** BK if you think you can grab a tech stand on reaction with Samus' 18 frame grab.

 

[bubbaking]

@iLink: Oh no, I definitely understand that, and I never stated otherwise, nor did I suggest that you should do something else. However, the fact still remains that the ASC is punishable, which is all I was really saying. This is why I don't really like to hit shields with fsmash that much.

Edit: Basically what I'm saying is the ASC won't necessarily save you from being punished. The only way to do that is to refrain from using fsmash unsafely in the first place.

 

[iLink]

@iLink: Oh no, I definitely understand that, and I never stated otherwise, nor did I suggest that you should do something else. However, the fact still remains that the ASC is punishable, which is all I was really saying. This is why I don't really like to hit shields with fsmash that much.

What punishes lucario's fsmash after he ASC the attack? Assuming he doesn't it at a reasonable distance and not when someone is right in his face.

 

[bubbaking]

I'll just go find the post. If you did the fsmash out of a string, odds are you actually aren't properly spaced and are closer than you would like. You can't really fine-tune your spacing much during a magic series. Of course, I'm assuming that you're fsmashing at the end of a string.

 

[Oro?!]

Ganon shouldn't be able to react to any tech reaction is what I'm saying. If they are already coming at you with sideB before you can do anything then they are making a read or a guess. Ganon has a lot of ways to cover multiple tech options at once like sideB -> Wiz Kick, which if they throw out something that covers multiple options and you end up going that way then there really is not anything you can do.

If you have time to shield or spot dodge then you might be able to roll or use a quick attack (if you have one) to stop Ganon from getting a grab.

 

[iLink]

I'll just go find the post. If you did the fsmash out of a string, odds are you actually aren't properly spaced and are closer than you would like. You can't really fine-tune your spacing much during a magic series. Of course, I'm assuming that you're fsmashing at the end of a string.

I'm not talking about attack strings though. This is what I mean about you not understanding the situation

I'm talking about just a raw fsmash canceled with an AS lol. Namely, something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-VFQPZuAcw&t=2m2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-VFQPZuAcw&t=2m52s

I rarely if ever chain all the way into a smash attack, and if I do, I'd probably opt to use dsmash over fsmash.

 

[bubbaking]

@Magus: I never said I was grabbing anyone's tech on reaction with Samus' grab because that's mostly impossible. I was actually just saying that, when I read the tech in place, I always get the grab with Samus despite her having the slowest grab. I realize that was worded confusingly, and I apologize for that. However, if she can do that, a bunch of other chars with much better grabs can definitely grab them on reaction, since you have 19 frames to do it (12 if you subtract the time between the grab's input and its actual grabbox, which is perfectly within human reaction time). Heck, in Melee, whenever I tech-chase Falcon with Sheik and he techs in place, I even have time to dash away (I always do this pre-emptively), dash back on reaction to the in-place tech, and grab him and this is actually on-reaction.

 

[DMG]

If Ganon reads the tech stand and moves quickly based on that assumption (grounded Side B at least), he will snag you. You can't avoid those. For moments where he tries to Side B ON REACTION to you standing up, you should be able to spotdodge or roll or jab/do something quick. Ivy blows man dunno what you want me to say, but you should be able to roll through him. Again, this is assuming Ganon does the Side B later instead of using it quick because he assumes you're teching in place.

 

[bubbaking]

As I said before, jabs and other moves seem to get beaten out by that reaching grab for some reason. Same goes for spot-dodges and I'm not sure why. Rolls seem viable, though. I just don't like to roll much, but screw preferences.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

If you're talking about his side b beating out stuff, its because its disjointed.

 

[iLink]

His sideb isn't disjointed, the grab box isn't even on his hand and more like at his elbow.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

No its definitely on his hand and its pretty big lol.

 

[bubbaking]

That's the problem...

I'll definitely believe that the grab is disjointed. Either that or his hand doesn't have a hurtbox when he's moving. That grab trades with (and subsequently grabs) the craziest stuff. I stopped trying to hit him out of it after teching for that.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Fun fact, even though its disjointed you can actually grab him out of it if you time it right.