Project M Social Thread

[Rikana]

I'd watch IE's stream. The idea sounds legit.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wish my connection was good enough to watch these streams.

 

[Project M]

We've got another update for you guys!

Ike and Wario Character Spotlights are live!

 

[bubbaking]

Bubbaking's P:M BRSTM Packet

Interesting. I would have thought that Ike's and Lucario's spotlights would be showcased together.....for obvious reasons. Anyway, Christmas technically lasts 12 days, right? Well then, Merry Christmas everybody!

http://www.mediafire.com/?owyp5q1an08k0

Well, it ain’t Christmas Eve/Day anymore, but I figured I might as well release my own brstm packet anyway. If you’re a fan of Sonic Advance, Sonic Battle, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, DBZ Budokai, Earth, Wind, & Fire, OverClocked Remix, Dubstep, Techno, and/or Rock songs, then you’ll probably find something you like in my selection, but there’s also some Metroid and SM64 remixes and some other stuff mixed in, so who knows? All songs are with standard P:M backgrounds in mind. If you want to know which specific brstm is a certain song, PM me. I have an ordered list:

[collapse="Organization of Songs and Stages"]Menu
Title Screen (Sonic Battle)
Expectation (Dragonball Z Budokai)
Big Opportunity (Dragonball Z Budokai 2)

Yoshi’s Island
September (Earth, Wind, & Fire)
Air Rally (Rhythm Heaven Fever)
Late in the Evening (Paul Simon)
In the Stone (Earth, Wind, & Fire)

Rainbow Cruise
Tails’ Twirly Tune Retro Remix (Sonic Battle Remix of Tails’ Lab)
Call Me Al (Paul Simon)

Halberd
Running to Victory (Dragonball Z Budokai)
Phi Battle (Sonic Battle)
Final Battle (Sonic Battle)
Back to Mad (Texas ******)
OCR Scrambled Eggman (Sonic 3 & Knuckles Remix of Boss Theme by Project Chaos)
OCR Malicious Fingers (Sonic 3 & Knuckles Remix of Final Boss Theme by Project Chaos)
Afterburner (Noisestorm)
Cosmic Angel Zone (Sonic Advance)
Egg Rocket Zone (Sonic Advance)
X Zone (Sonic Advance)
Egg Rocket Remix (Sonic Advance Remix of Egg Rocket Zone)
Pinball Wizard (The Who)

Metal Cavern
Metal Mario (Super Smash Bros 64)
OCR The Glacier’s Peak (Sonic Advance Remix of Ice Mountain Zone: Act 1)
OCR Heads Up for Tails (Sonic 3 & Knuckles Remix of Final Boss Theme by Project Chaos)
OCR Devastation’s Doorway (Super Mario 64 Remix of Koopa’s Road and Bowser’s Theme)
OCR The Alternate Route (Super Mario 64 Remix of Koopa’s Road)

WarioWare
Nonaggression (Sonic Advance 3)
Cell Games Arena BW Soundfont (Dragonball Z Budokai Remix of Cell Games Arena)
Egg Rocket Cosmic Angel Zone Remix (Sonic Advance Remix of Egg Rocket and Cosmic Angel zones)
Cosmic Angel Zone Arranged Remix (Sonic Advance Remix of Cosmic Angel Zone)
Catgroove (Parov Stelar)

Brinstar
Metal Depot (Sonic Battle)
OCR Cranial Syphon [Kay-raid] (Metroid Remix of Kraid’s Chamber)

Pictochat
Battle Highway Remix (Sonic Battle Remix of Battle Highway)

Fountain of Dreams
Fountain of Dreams (Super Smash Bros Melee)
Cosmic Angel Remix (Sonic Advance Remix of Cosmic Angel Zone)
Egg Rocket Zone Remix Extended (Sonic Advance Remix of Egg Rocket Zone)
Egg Rocket Zone Remix* (Sonic Advance Remix of Egg Rocket Zone)
Egg Rocket Zone Trance Mix (Sonic Advance Remix of Egg Rocket Zone)

Smashville (Normal)
OCR The Ken Song (Street Fighter II Remix of Ken’s Theme)
Library (Sonic Battle)
Kamikaze (Five Iron Frenzy)***
Basket Case (Green Day)
Amy’s Room FL Cover Remix (Sonic Battle Remix of Amy’s Room)

Smashville (K.K.)
Club Rouge (Sonic Battle)

Yoshi’s Story
Yoshi’s Story (Super Smash Bros Melee)
Let’s Groove (Earth, Wind, & Fire)

Green Hill Zone
Cosmic Angel Zone Remix (Sonic Advance Remix of Cosmic Angel Zone)
Chaos Battle (Sonic Battle)
Scatman (Scatman John)

Skyworld
Castle Crashers Feint DnB Remix (Castle Crashers Remix)

Dracula's Castle
OCR In the Darkness of Time (Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow Remix of Clock Tower)

Kongo Jungle
Kongo Jungle (Super Smash Bros 64)
Chambermaid Swing (Parov Stelar)

Pokémon Stadium
OCR Red Cyclone (Street Fighter II Remix of Zangief’s Theme)
Emerald Beach – Sonic Generations Version (Sonic Battle)

Pokémon Stadium 2
Battle Highway (Sonic Battle)
Cosmic Angel Zone Remix MegaDrive Version (Sonic Advance Remix of Cosmic Angel Zone)

Final Destination
Shockwave (Noisestorm)
Showdown (Pendulum)
OCR The Doomsday (Sonic 3 & Knuckles Remix of Doomsday Zone by Project Chaos)
NonAggression XG Remix (Sonic Advance 3 Remix of Nonaggression)
What I’m Made Of… (Sonic Heroes)

Battlefield
**Ballad of the Goddess - Legend of Zelda 25th Anniversary Symphony (Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword)
Challengers (Dragonball Z Budokai)
Cell Games Arena (Dragonball Z Budokai)
Like a Burning Wind (Dragonball Z Budokai)
Move Forward Fearlessly (Dragonball Z Budokai)

*All the Egg Rocket and Cosmic Angel remixes are different, so you may want to pick and choose which ones you include. I liked all of them so I simply included all of them.
**This is completely different from the version of Ballad of the Goddess on Skyloft. That version is the theme played during the trailer of the game and is not as ‘complete’ as this.
***There are actually two versions of this song on SV. Each one is of the exact same song, but looped differently.[/collapse]

 

[DMG]

Ike changes: I approve on just about everything except more startup on Fair if I'm reading that correctly.

 

[hotdogturtle]

=)

10smileys

 

[bubbaking]

Shoutouts to JCaesar for sharing the same exact choice for one of SV's song replacements (OCR The Ken Song)! Great minds think alike.

 

[Juushichi]

Curse you, Reflex!

I didn't want to have to respect Wario!

 

[Biz_R_0]

My point was, in Brawl (not P:M, Brawl) this has caused zero problems and we all suspected absolutely nothing, but now that someone has discovered it, suddenly all that changes. In Brawl, this is no big deal and will only be brought up as a John or when a hater wants to list off all the things about Brawl s/he deems "bad" in a usually vain attempt to make others dislike the game. So, tell me; if this is such a big deal, why hasn't it been a problem until now?

In regards to the changes, I predict that Wario is still much worse than he was in Brawl and won't really be that much better. He's already been turned from the Rufus of Brawl to the El Fuerte.

 

[bubbaking]

El Fuerte's fun to watch, though...

Leaf can you send me some tips on makin brstms?

For me, I Always use iTunes to encode to Wav after editing and volume correcting. Audacity and Soundbooth have booth given me nothing but WAVs that crash Brawlbox and make it think the song is ten hours long.

I've literally NEVER had problems using Audacity. I actually use a method that probably has a few extraneous steps in it. I use ConverterLite to convert my mp3's or whatever non-WAV songs I have into WAV 32-bit (to preserve quality). That alone wipes off all the author data (which is what is probably crashing your songs on Brawl). Then I use Audacity to chop up and re-shape my song as I see fit, to adjust the volume, if need be, and finally to export the song into a WAV 16-bit format (what BrawlBox can read). Then I just use BrawlBox to actually loop the song. This method hasn't failed me yet and it's pretty darn good, if I do say so myself.

 

[Biz_R_0]

El Fuerte's fun to watch, though...

Mainly because of his novelty.

 

[DMG]

My point was, in Brawl (not P:M, Brawl) this has caused zero problems and we all suspected absolutely nothing, but now that someone has discovered it, suddenly all that changes. In Brawl, this is no big deal and will only be brought up as a John or when a hater wants to list off all the things about Brawl s/he deems "bad" in a usually vain attempt to make others dislike the game. So, tell me; if this is such a big deal, why hasn't it been a problem until now?

In regards to the changes, I predict that Wario is still much worse than he was in Brawl and won't really be that much better. He's already been turned from the Rufus of Brawl to the El Fuerte.

Brawl has massive buffering, P:M does not.

10 Frames of Buffer in Brawl means that actions being 0-2 frames off isn't a big deal (since if buffer registers your input on frame 6 in the window, even if the game only reads it on frame 8 you're still in the buffer window)

P:M does not have buffering (or buffering wouldn't be tournament legal) and thus the frame difference impact you in real time. This is unacceptable (for both games, but highly more so for a Melee environment)

 

[Biz_R_0]

In P:M this is definitely something. In Brawl this will only be used as a John or nitpick.

 

[DMG]

It's not as big of a deal in Brawl, but Reflex is right in that this does diminish the reliability of punishes and adds a bit of uncertainty when playing. Which isn't healthy or ok.

 

[Biz_R_0]

But how come this was never a problem until now? It went almost 5 years without being discovered, people would've looked into this way earlier if it actually had a significant effect because they would've seen the effect.

 

[Dan Salvato]

If you're talking about the input lag, one reason I can come up with is that Brawl has 10 frames of buffer, meaning you're already performing many actions at the earliest possible frame, and as such, skill-based timing is not as much of an issue.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Exactly my point, this is all but nullified by buffer and the fact that most things don't really need frame perfection in Brawl. Like I said, this is only going to be a John or nitpick.

 

[DrinkingFood]

It probably has been a problem many times before, but players were much more likely to write it off as bad timing on their part because there was no obvious cause for why they missed a certain action (one that cant be buffered, that is).

 

[DMG]

Well that depends. PSing in Brawl is easier, people usually try to punish airdodges and spotdodges with lingering hitboxes, stuff like that. For quick trigger situations like MK Ftilt wars, you'd probably think you just got outsped if his Ftilt hits you first. It wouldn't enter your mind that the game might be delaying it. I've seen games with clashing hits deciding the set. Frame or 2 difference means someone else might have won.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Exactly my point, this is all but nullified by buffer and the fact that most things don't really need frame perfection in Brawl. Like I said, this is only going to be a John or nitpick.

We know it can't make that game any worse, that's why we don't play that game in the first place.

Go argue with your fellow brawlers not to complain about input lag, you have nothing to convince us of.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Alright, fine. I'll just sit back and wait for people to John and nitpick it to death.

 

[trash?]

It's not nitpicking to think that something that ensures your attempts at frame-by-frame links will always fail is a bad idea. In a genre where small amounts of input lag is why online fighting tournaments are laughed at by any serious pro, and CRTs are still the norm because an LCD with <1ms response times are rare and expensive, a design flaw that makes anything you input delayed is a very, very big problem.

I know that brawl hatred is generally a bad thing--and in any other situation, I'd agree--but there really is no excuse. This is absolutely horrible.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Clearly this is horrible, as it alone has completely ruined the game for almost 5 years.

Totally not nitpicking.

 

[iLink]

This argument is almost as silly as jc's taste in music

 

[DrinkingFood]

It's like people have gotten used to tripping and no sub-tumble DI and hitstun canceling and Metaknight, and try to defend brawl by pretending input lag is the only thing wrong with it and doesn't stack onto everything else to make it a horrible game.
Lol come on guys it's not funny anymore just admit you were trolling the whole time.

 

[trash?]

Clearly this is horrible, as it alone has completely ruined the game for almost 5 years.

Totally not nitpicking.

If all you intend to do is spout strawmen arguments and ignore any relevant statements, then I suggest you to not argue about something that requires you to be grounded in reality.

In a fighting game, if the player is punished for anything beyond their own, raw skill, that is not a good thing. People latch onto CRTS for this very reason: because if the response time on an LCD is too big, inputs can take up to several frames to properly act out, from making the action -> action happening. In a fighting game, those few frames absolutely mean the entire world. We live in a genre where frame data is important, because a good player has, at worst, a very good general idea of frame-by-frame things in the game.

If there is a bug that delays what you do for up to two frames, that is a horrible bug, and the game attached to it suffers problems as a result. No amount of "butbut johns and nitpicks and SCrUBS" will ever change that.

 

[Vkrm]

Brawl has distracting sound effects. It feels akward.

That's nitpicking. Having something that could **** you over independent of you opponents skill is a major flaw.

 

[The_Guide]

Exactly my point, this is all but nullified by buffer and the fact that most things don't really need frame perfection in Brawl. Like I said, this is only going to be a John or nitpick.

Just want to point out that buffer usually isn't allowed in Project M tournaments. So, yeah, this is kind of a big deal.4

Edit: My bad, I didn't look at the previous page. Didn't realize that you'd already acknowledged that, and were talking about Brawl.

 

[The Star King]

The real reason nobody played Wario is that he's a ugly smelly fat man

Meanwhile everybody was claiming they'd be the best Zamus in the world in the P:M thread on the Melee boards before we even knew anything about her. There's a reason for that.

 

[`dazrin]

How can you john about something that is an issue for everyone equally?

Needless to say, input lag assistance was a gigantic leap in making PM feel more melee-like, and all the props in the world go to Magus for discovering and addressing this issue. There probably wouldn't even have been a 2.5 release in the first place if it wasn't for this, so yes- it is a big deal.

Anyways, Metroid and NY are still streaming! http://twitch.tv/freesaltines
Follow that stream!

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

When's Fox?

 

[Jolteon]

http://twitch.tv/freesaltines

They're still streaming!

 

[drsusredfish]

I just got PSABR. I have to say its not as bad as i thought it'd be. But definatley not as good as smash. darn broken Kratos <_<

 

[Biz_R_0]

My question hasn't been answered yet, and has instead resulted in people completely exaggerating the effects of the mechanic (as predicted) and responding to things I never said or implied. So, I'll ask it again, hoping for an actual answer;

If this is such a big deal, why wasn't it noticeable at all beforehand and why did it take almost 5 years for it to be discovered?

And just to clarify;

Things I am not saying:
-this is good
-this shouldn't have been removed
-this doesn't matter in P:M
-Brawl is perfect aside from this

Proceed.

 

[iLink]

Is Wario's uair unchanged? I didn't see it mentioned the write-up.

 

[Mattnumbers]

My question hasn't been answered yet, and has instead resulted in people completely exaggerating the effects of the mechanic (as predicted) and responding to things I never said or implied. So, I'll ask it again, hoping for an actual answer;

If this is such a big deal, why wasn't it noticeable at all beforehand and why did it take almost 5 years for it to be discovered?

It wasn't noticeable because it affects all players equally. It's a basic part of the feel of the game that makes it less enjoyable to play. People didn't notice it for 5 years because they didn't have anything to directly compare it to.

 

[trash?]

My question hasn't been answered yet, and has instead resulted in people completely exaggerating the effects of the mechanic (as predicted) and responding to things I never said or implied. So, I'll ask it again, hoping for an actual answer;

If this is such a big deal, why wasn't it noticeable at all beforehand and why did it take almost 5 years for it to be discovered?

I just explained to you why, whether or not people noticed before (which they absolutely did, as people who TAS brawl would tell you) is absolutely irrelevant. I feel like I say this once a week, but it still stands: the smash community has never, ever been one to figure out something quickly, and the last tier list for melee came out almost 9 years after melee did.

 

[drsusredfish]

Sooooo is the PMBR still working out bugs 2 days from release or do yall already have the download ready and waiting? 3rd times the charm for on time release.

 

[Biz_R_0]

It wasn't noticeable because it affects all players equally.

Same with buffer, but we figured that out pretty early on.

It's a basic part of the feel of the game that makes it less enjoyable to play.

This means nothing and is just you attempting to shoehorn in your opinion.

People didn't notice it for 5 years because they didn't have anything to directly compare it to.

Melee and 64 didn't have this. Unless you're talking about Brawl mods, in which case we discovered buffer before Brawl+.

I just explained to you why, whether or not people noticed before (which they absolutely did, as people who TAS brawl would tell you) is absolutely irrelevant.

Yeah, it's relevant. If this was a big deal we would've already known, because we would've been noticeably effected by it and searched for an explanation.

I feel like I say this once a week, but it still stands: the smash community has never, ever been one to figure out something quickly, and the last tier list for melee came out almost 9 years after melee did.

Knowing something exists and perfect knowledge of the game are two completely different things.

 

[McNinja]

I'm pretty sure it hasn't been discovered because the natural buffer in brawl masked it and made it unnoticeable. Since project M does not have buffer (turned on all the time), it unveiled these frames.

Hope this helps!