Project M Social Thread

[ELI-mination]

L2P but Lucario makes me ragequit

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nerf Pit running away is too good

Jigglypuff is fine though.

 

[Arcansi]

Yeah what he said. There's never been a perfectly balanced fighting game to ever exist, and you're never ever going to completely get matchups down when making one, because over time someone's going to some sort of tech that can range from making a matchup slightly easier, to outright changing the entire metagame. Remember, melee took a few years before characters who were not sheik were considered top tier.

This assumption is horrible.

There's no logical reason that someone will find tech. They may, but it is not always true that they will.

Also, balance changes after a game is out are a thing.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

If you use tap jump, just hold up on the stick as soon as you release the downb.

The timing and motion are quite annoying
I had a nightmare that the extra frame in the short hop window was removed. This was a nightmare right?
Damn I just realized that I'm having dreams about pm mechanics....

Damn, ok small hope lol

 

[Pimpfish]

L2P but Lucario makes me ragequit

does buffering rolls help on his shield pressure? i havent played any good lukes, but i feel like buffering a roll right when he hits your shield would atleast mean he cant side b grab. just a thought. ddd is so good

 

[Stevo]

Not logically correct. Rock Paper Scissors is perfectly balanced, as is my example above.

It may not be the BEST way to make a game perfectly balanced, but it IS perfectly balanced.

if it's not the best way to make a game pefectly balanced, then why would they do it? The point of this is not to argue about what the technical definition of balanced is, it's about how to make Project M the best it can be.

This assumption is horrible.

There's no logical reason that someone will find tech. They may, but it is not always true that they will.

Also, balance changes after a game is out are a thing.

they want to stay away from Balance changes after the game is out (for good reason)

 

[Arcansi]

if it's not the best way to make a game pefectly balanced, then why would they do it? The point of this is not to argue about what the technical definition of balanced is, it's about how to make Project M the best it can be.

You don't seem to be reading all of my posts. The example with 60/40 still stands as an exemplary way to balance a game, if possible. (Which it is.)

That specific part isn't directly related to what you're talking about. Also, conversations can move their topic around.

NOTE: Project M can't be the best it can be if people don't know the technical definition of balance.

they want to stay away from Balance changes after the game is out (for good reason)

What reason is there that doesn't apply to not having a public beta?

 

[Pimpfish]

the technical definiton of balance is fox only, final destination. where both players are mango.

 

[ELI-mination]

Items on high, obviously

 

[Comeback Kid]

What reason is there that doesn't apply to not having a public beta?

Because a public beta, especially one that lasts for years, is meant to get the game as balanced as possible before they release it into the world as the official version.

Once the game is finished, and I mean really done, then they will only release more balance changes if something is proven to be broken and therefore needs to be changed.

If nothing is broken, why change more things at that point and prevent a stable metagame from forming?

 

[JOE!]

But to be perfectly honest, I think the true source of all my unhappiness is....

 

[bubbaking]

the technical definiton of balance is fox only, final destination. where both players are mango.

Items on high, obviously

Whadya mean? If RPS is the only method to do things the proper way, then that means the phrase should obviously be "Game and Watch, Peach, or Luigi on Rainbow Cruise or Poke Floats only." We need to test how good you are at landing 9-hammers, stitchies, bob-ombs, and misfires on continuously, yet regularly, changing environments that truly emphasize how Smash is both a fighter and a platformer that stretches how we interpret "matchup ratios". That totally wasn't a statement about Smash balance, guys.

 

[DMG]

He said RPS, not random roll the dice

 

[bubbaking]

If RPS isn't random, then you aren't playing the game properly.

#Cheater

For good measure...

 

[Pimpfish]

i always choose scissors at random.

 

[bubbaking]

Whatever happened to our good exchanges on how janky Wario was jank?

 

[hotdogturtle]

Ike = Ganon

C'mon, we all know it was bound to happen once Ganon finally pulled out that sword.

Didn't you hear? His crouch-cancelled down-B is the same as Ike's counter.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, don't hit him. It's gonna get you smacked in the face!

@Joe: Yeah, I saw that cyclops shark on the news a while back. What's more interesting is that I think it's female.....

 

[Stevo]

You don't seem to be reading all of my posts. The example with 60/40 still stands as an exemplary way to balance a game, if possible. (Which it is.)

That specific part isn't directly related to what you're talking about. Also, conversations can move their topic around.

NOTE: Project M can't be the best it can be if people don't know the technical definition of balance.

What reason is there that doesn't apply to not having a public beta?

I don't know what you are trying to get at then. To have a perfectly Balanced game (which would be near impossible with Project M) you would have to constantly make balance patches. We still can't even agree on the tier list for melee!

The problem there, is next to nobody wants constant balance patches. 1 or 2 if necessary after release, maybe for some sort of large oversight, but overall, people want to learn the game and not have things constantly change on them. Brawl + had this issue, for example (among other things).

How can we even perfectly balance something when people will not agree on matchups anyway?

Basically, I have no idea what you are trying to convince others of. Maybe someone else can better explain why we shouldn't have balance updates.

 

[leelue]

Fishophiliac

How can people not agree on what 75:25 means? Wtf

 

[Stevo]

it means for every 75 balloons one character can pop, the other character can only pop 25

 

[bubbaking]

So I guess MU ratios are only valid on SV then. Guess I'll have to add that to the list of legal stages alongside RC and Poke Floats.

 

[Pimpfish]

it means for every 75 times character A can get laid, character B can only get laid 25 times.

 

[bubbaking]

That's a pimp's definition and is therefore invalid.

#Racism?

 

[Pimpfish]

pimp, king, whats the difference?

 

[bubbaking]

Good point.

It's funny how this thread 'curves' throughout the day. It's always the same format. each. and every. day.

Metagame thread by day. Social thread by night. Only Leelue at any other hours (when he should be sleeping).

 

[Comeback Kid]

I see Project M is stalking this thread.

Oh God of Smash, do you have an announcement to make?

 

[DMG]

Project M would like to announce half off bagel sale

 

[CSDragon]

The problem there, is next to nobody wants constant balance patches.

This really bugs me. Smash players are so spoiled in this regard. As a DotA/LoL/HoN player, I'm used to weekly/biweekly patches, and they work just fine. Heck, there's tons of hype over the balance changes in every one.

Make patches like monthly or something. Constant hype, a fluid and controllable meta, and the dream of new content is always on the horizon.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I see Project M is stalking this thread.

Oh God of Smash, do you have an announcement to make?

Let's start taking bets on the new delayed release date.

 

[GaretHax]

Well a few characters will always dominate no matter how you try to balance a fighter. If you change one move from one character who knows how that affects every matchup. I'd say it's fine the way they are and everyone just needs to L2P.

Damn I missed posts like this so much sneak where are your get better posts at?
Spacies can be beaten and have very few polarizing matchups and those who suffer from one have been buffed and given tools to help. The hate for spacies just blows my mind sometimes especially considering how infrequently fox wins anything of importance these days compared to shiek and falco.

 

[trash?]

Arcansi, I am not making that statement in theory. I am making that statement based off an actual understanding of game design. There is physically, absolutely and positively no way for a fighting game with a varied cast to be truly, perfectly balanced in every conceivable way, because it implies a person will know absolutely everything a fanbase can and will do with a game. Even the most feasibly polished game in the entire world has an exploit, a bug that one of the many, many people who plays it has found and abused. I can tell you this because I am in a forum based around a fighting game that still has tricks to be found, over a decade after its release. This is an objective, absolute truth, and the sooner it is realized that this is the case, the sooner it would be realized that the point of balancing a game is to simply get as close as possible to perfection.

Also: weekly updates are a horrendous idea, and many, many of the developers of this mod can tell you that from experience.

 

[CSDragon]

hey, if dota can do it

although, as I said above, month is probably better suited to P:M

 

[jalued]

This really bugs me. Smash players are so spoiled in this regard. As a DotA/LoL/HoN player, I'm used to weekly/biweekly patches, and they work just fine. Heck, there's tons of hype over the balance changes in every one.

Make patches like monthly or something. Constant hype, a fluid and controllable meta, and the dream of new content is always on the horizon.

The difference is that patches for those games are compulsory and are automatically updated to EVERY player at the same time.

For Project M, this just isn't possible and having weekly updates would just fragment the community. People who didnt like changes wouldn't update and there would be alot of confusion surrounding the game.

 

[Comeback Kid]

hey, if dota can do it

although, as I said above, month is probably better suited to P:M

I didn't realize DOTA was a fighting game.

 

[CSDragon]

The difference is that patches for those games are compulsory and are automatically updated to EVERY player at the same time.

For Project M, this just isn't possible and having weekly updates would just fragment the community. People who didnt like changes wouldn't update and there would be alot of confusion surrounding the game.

Dota 2, hon and lol yes.

The original dota was just a mod to a game, run by a small team and distributed on a single website.
sound familiar?

 

[jalued]

Dota 2, hon and lol yes.

The original dota was just a mod to a game, run by a small team and distributed on a single website.
sound familiar?

Remember brawl+?

 

[GP&B]

The comparison fails when it comes to the platform they're on. PC is by far hugely more built for constant updates than consoles are.

 

[CSDragon]

Remember brawl+?

Yeah, and i was always checking for the next update.

 

[bubbaking]

The difference is that patches for those games are compulsory and are automatically updated to EVERY player at the same time.

For Project M, this just isn't possible and having weekly updates would just fragment the community. People who didnt like changes wouldn't update and there would be alot of confusion surrounding the game.

Agreed if only because of the bolded part.