Project M Social Thread

[leafbarrett]

Umm... Is Bowser's fsmash supposed to be so... alarmingly spammable?

 

[SFA Smiley]

Umm... Is Bowser's fsmash supposed to be so... alarmingly spammable?

Yes.

Lol all I do in AZ is go on and on about how I'm going to fsmash everyone's shield =)

Bowser is finally scary, don't try to make him a joke again =(

 

[leafbarrett]

Yes.

Lol all I do in AZ is go on and on about how I'm going to fsmash everyone's shield =)

Bowser is finally scary, don't try to make him a joke again =(

It's not scary, it's annoying. Also, fun fact, the fsmash actually does LESS total damage (fully charged = 35, as opposed to vBrawl's 42).
In other Bowser news, Bowser's dtilt always bugs out when I'm playing on a console. It goes into tpose (presumably because the game's not reading the FitBowserMotion file, so it can't find the AttackLw31 animation that didn't exist in vBrawl). It also uses the wrong throw animation for the fspecial (uses the old bodyslam animation, though without moving). Any ideas on how to fix it?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Bowser's fsmash is spammable? Last time I checked it had like a second of startup and a second of cooldown. Sounds like plenty of time to punish, and plenty of time to react and avoid it.

 

[leafbarrett]

In theory, yes, but at least in my experience, it sure hasn't been that way in practice. (And I was the Bowser, and I have next to no experience playing as Bowser, yet I was able to score multiple kills just by spamming fsmash. This happened several matches in a row.)

 

[SFA Smiley]

Bowser's fsmash is spammable? Last time I checked it had like a second of startup and a second of cooldown. Sounds like plenty of time to punish, and plenty of time to react and avoid it.

Theoretically, yes, but the biggest factors are the superarmor and the inherent spacing of the move (Bowser takes a step backwards and people (especially melee players) aren't prepared/knowledgeable/fast enough to react to it and when they attempt to punish they put themselves in fsmash range.

It's one of those moves where the reward is really high so it's enough to "somewhat" offset the risk.

edit: I say somewhat because if you grab bowser he's gonna hate his life.

 

[Wavebuster]

Bad/unfamiliar players overcommit themselves to attacks when facing Bowser, causing his Fsmashes to land.

Respect Bowser's ****. Zelda, too, for that matter.

 

[bubbaking]

At low %'s DK can fthrow/bthrow chaingrab link into uthrow uair/bair/nair. One more grab after that it's uthrow ->fair which kills link around 70-80% and is unavoidable no matter the DI. The best you can hope for is to DI to get spiked.

DK has a f/bthrow CG on Link? (O_o) Also, have you tried DIing DK's cargo uthrow > fair behind DK? I've managed to avoid the fair when I do it perfectly, although that could actually just be the DK screwing up.....idk. I just know that no DI and DI in front of him never work, but I sometimes get away from him when I DI behind him.

Yes, Project M is pointless compared to SDR, sure it's more similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee than borlw was but in reality it just has a thousand differences from Melee compared to bwalr being different in a million of ways, and since a single difference makes the games 10 times worse than Melee then Project M is still ten thousand times worse (and it's also based on balrw, the antichrist of gaming). In fact, i'm gonna stop capitalizing the M in porecjt m because it's doesn't deserve that recognition.

And nobody cares about new characters or stages since they aren't Melee and therefore are the spawn of the devil.

But then again why create SD remix? Why would you change Melee's amazing character balance and its INCREDIBLY DEEP matchups? Super Smash Bros. Melee is God's gift to gaming and it is perfect in every way. Divine light shines bright on the disc whenever the game case is opened, and a chorus of angels can be heard across the world for the duration of every match. It's almost blasphemous. I hope Nintendo sues or something, because this is so wrong.

I'm not sure how serious this guy is, but it seems to me like SDR is taking a lot of popularity away from P:M. I guess it's with good reason, too, for pure Melee enthusiasts. I really need to get that game myself and see what it's really like...

 

[Gimpel]

SD Remix wasn't made to be a competition for Project M or because people didn't like the few physics differences (I have faith in PMBR that these will play a really minor role in 2.5). It's basically a balance patch to melee and in that, it's an improvement over vmelee (better character balance with a lot more fun to play former low tiers, more tournament viable stages and neat miscellaneous changes like default 4 stocks as rules, c-stick in 1P mode etc).
On the other hand, Project M is the true successor to melee with completely updated graphics, different characters, different stages, slightly different mechanics and newly introduced mechanics like RAR and longer AGTs etc.

There's no point in trying to say if P:M or SDR is better because SDR should be seen as a balance patch and we all know Project M isn't just Melee 1.5, but I think we all agree that P:M and Melee can coexist, and a patch for Melee doesn't hurt this at all. Two extremely good games that play similar is better than one, if the Smash community didn't want improvements to their game, Project M wouldn't exist either

I also don't get the point of this sarcastic comment :V

 

[FireBall Stars]

From what I've seen from the hylian video is that, at least on the first match, he was doing very well but suddenly he lost momentum and started making bad decisions due to psychological pressure, which SB exploited to comeback.

It includes desperate rolls due to reduced retreating space and badly spaced moves (you were basically going right into his shield) thrown just while hoping them to hit somehow (probably expecting a bad spacing decision from SB).

SB was on the right space to punish you if you did something like that, and he did. I was also surprised by the lack of arrows and dash dancing, also going all the way to jab3 when shielded, which isn't very safe.

So it seems to me to be more of a player vs character matchup than a character vs character matchup.

 

[bubbaking]

It's basically a balance patch to melee and in that, it's an improvement over vmelee (better character balance with a lot more fun to play former low tiers, more tournament viable stages and neat miscellaneous changes like default 4 stocks as rules, c-stick in 1P mode etc).

Wait, SDR added more stages?

 

[Ace55]

They changed a couple (like Green Greens).

 

[cannedbread]

i think they just like edited stages i don't know fersure

like green greens layout looks similar to p:m ps2

 

[Gimpel]

Green Greens is this stage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFx5mEsjOls&feature=plcp
PS1 doesn't transform
Yoshi's Island 64 changed to no longer have these clouds, smaller blast zones, lower two platforms lowered and top platform removed
and we're thinking about maybe changing some more, not sure :V

Sorry for off topic but if I just sent him a PM, the question would still be left not really answered with the two posts above )=

 

[Gea]

Project M is the true successor to melee with completely updated graphics, different characters, different stages, slightly different mechanics and newly introduced mechanics like RAR and longer AGTs etc.

I wish people would stop saying this, because lots of players really don't feel like it is the case. I'll just be told "it isn't the case... yet." This is ignoring all the ignorant players who claim it is exactly, 100% like Melee. Every time I say, "No, it doesn't feel like Melee because _____" I am given a canned "they haven't fixed that yet" or "they decided to go a different direction."

Which is fine and all, but Project M isn't some magical sequel to Melee. It really is it's own animal, for better and for worse. People put a lot of time and effort into making the mod and lots of people enjoy it, but it kills me that so many people are convinced this is what Melee was or that the design choices on characters are somehow similar to what would be in Melee at all.

 

[Yeroc]

PS1 doesn't transform

I just lost all interest I had in SDR.

 

[Gea]

SDR's real issues come from trying to make too many characters as fast as Fox/Falcon or Jiggs in the air as a means of balancing the game. Other characters have oddball changes that feel very disjointed and wonky. It's a bit of being limited in design possibilities, and a bit of incorrect mindset in what would bring balance to the game, imo.

 

[Gimpel]

Isn't a sequel to a game still a new game ?

I actually didn't want to say that what you explained there and that's not how I feel about Project M either, but I wanted to point out the difference between SDR being the same as Melee, just better, and Project M being a "whole new game" like you said. You're completely right and I should have worded some things differently. That however doesn't change what I wanted to say about SDR and P:M being able to coexist etc. I apologize for the bad wording in some of my posts, my english kinda sucks still.

I'd also be interested in what exactly you think are the issues with SDR, it is still in developement and because we don't have many skilled people playtesting (like I have no skill, so I don't think what I would design if I did anything would be great), you posting your concerns is greatly appreciated (at least per PM or in the SD Remix thread)
(Actually, I just remembered you already did that for some characters :D)

And Yerok, I don't even want to imagine why one would prefer playing on fire/rock transformation
Maybe we can make a PS1 that only changes between default and grass or sth like that


/e @ below: That's like saying BF and a YS without randall would be the same stage. On Green Greens, platforms are longer, not so far away from each other but further away from the ledge, ledges are different and blast zones are obviously different

 

[Wavebuster]

And Yerok, I don't even want to imagine why one would prefer playing on fire/rock transformation
Maybe we can make a PS1 that only changes between default and grass or sth like that

SD R already has a non transforming PS1, except it's called Green Greens.

 

[leelue]

Hylian all I saw was an overabundance of up b and a lot of that unsafe on shield stuff that was echoed before. I understand your hesitation for grabs... but you still missed a couple of opportunities (just like every player would from now and again).

Definitively, however, you used your upB too much. The risk/reward seems to just be too great in this matchup 90% of the time.

 

[V-K]

I hope in 2.5 the chars will be closer to Melee. After playing Marth a lot in PM it was hard to get back into Melee Marth.

 

[Life]

I'm rather curious what's the point of a balance patch when there's already a nearly-done sequel.

I don't have anything personally against the game, but it does compete with PM as a "like Melee but better" hack, and PM has a higher ceiling for the "better" part than MSDR.

 

[V-K]

I'm rather curious what's the point of a balance patch when there's already a nearly-done sequel.

Melee at least right now is way better imo except for the fact that half of the cast is useless. I'm not sure if the PMBR will really be able to make a game better than Melee.

 

[Life]

One, PM isn't done (and neither is MSDR, to be fair), and two, how so? I don't see anything Melee does that PM does not (barring a few things that are being worked on, such as the soon-to-be-released ledge teching fix).

 

[V-K]

One, PM isn't done (and neither is MSDR, to be fair), and two, how so? I don't see anything Melee does that PM does not (barring a few things that are being worked on, such as the soon-to-be-released ledge teching fix).

Melee feels better imo. Try to play PM and then switch Melee, the gameplay/controls are defintely a bit different.

 

[ELI-mination]

I feel completely the opposite. First of all, it's never hard to play Marth, period.
Second of all I think P:M feels much better than melee. I tried going back to melee and it felt a lot worse in terms of game mechanics.

 

[Life]

@V-K (Eli ninja'd me -_-): That's kind of a perception thing though. You've presumably had a while to get used to Melee, so of course PM will feel slightly off to you -- as I suspect someone who started on PM might feel a little weird in Melee.

I've been playing Smash for quite a long time (only competitively relatively recently though), and I don't have a lot of trouble switching between Melee, Brawl, and PM. (I also don't play spacies or other uber-fast characters, might have something to do with it. Do you, by any chance?)

For reference:
Melee: :jiggs:
Brawl:
PM:
(though I experiment with almost everyone)

 

[Hylian]

I can see where I was playing bad and agree. I need less up-b and more nair/offstage edgeguarding. I think a lot of the things I do against dk come from hard reads against my roommate and it makes me play worse because of the style difference :/. I do have several good videos of me vs dk if any of you have seen them.

I just need to get better to beat sb period, he obviously outplayed me. I will say I used to think link beat dk even when sb beat me at my first tournament, i only changed my mind after hours and hours of link vs dk matches with my roommate.

Looking forward to eli's Link vs SB to see how it's done.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

It's obviously different because it's not done, right now for me, SDR is the game i'll keep playing untill PM at least feels enough, and has enough of the things from melee to be able to play it without feeling weird, but yeah in the topic of which is better (or get better w/e) PM has much much much much much much much much much much much much much more potentional than melee (including SDR and anything the SDR team could do in the future) simply because of how limited they are in being able to change the game in general, compared to PM where you they've even changed attacks to better suit thier character, special systems or ways of attacking (Lucario's OHC) and everything else, it has much more potentional to be even faster, and with the inclusion of brawl characters, alot more dynamic and intresting than melee.

The ONLY way (my opion) that SDR could compete with PM in the future is if they focused on playing it with the newly found netpay for dolphin (or the future SSBMO, which will be much better and alot more accesible than netplay) i could really see balanced melee and being able to play it with other people around the world as real competion for PM.

 

[V-K]

I feel completely the opposite. First of all, it's never hard to play Marth, period.
Second of all I think P:M feels much better than melee. I tried going back to melee and it felt a lot worse in terms of game mechanics.

It only feels worse because it is harder to execute certain things. For example in PM you can fsmash by just pressing A and pressing the control stick to the side. In Melee you have to do it really fast, otherwise it's gonna be an ftilt.

Also do the following: Play Melee Captain Falcon for 30 minutes and then immediately switch to PM Falcon. You'll notice how PM is slightly slower and the moves are a tiny bit delayed.

I think Melee is still really cool because it is hard to play, PM is way easier to play

 

[DrinkingFood]

VK I'm pretty sure the threshold for smash vs tilt inputs are the same. Unless someone wants to correct me on that, I don't think it was one of those things that sakurai changed.

 

[bubbaking]

I wish people would stop saying this, because lots of players really don't feel like it is the case. I'll just be told "it isn't the case... yet." This is ignoring all the ignorant players who claim it is exactly, 100% like Melee. Every time I say, "No, it doesn't feel like Melee because _____" I am given a canned "they haven't fixed that yet" or "they decided to go a different direction."

Which is fine and all, but Project M isn't some magical sequel to Melee. It really is it's own animal, for better and for worse. People put a lot of time and effort into making the mod and lots of people enjoy it, but it kills me that so many people are convinced this is what Melee was or that the design choices on characters are somehow similar to what would be in Melee at all.

Well, to be fair, a spiritual sequel doesn't have to be that close to the original subject. It doesn't even have to feel the same. It just has to have a similar motive that influences design choices. Sequels are allowed to shine and flourish on their own, separate of the game that they evolved from. P:M isn't Melee, and I don't expect it to ever be, but it's a good follow-up.

I'm rather curious what's the point of a balance patch when there's already a nearly-done sequel.

I don't have anything personally against the game, but it does compete with PM as a "like Melee but better" hack, and PM has a higher ceiling for the "better" part than MSDR.

I wouldn't say that. SDR seems better for those who want to stick more to Melee and wouldn't want to move on to something else that's truthfully very different. For instance, there are no (good) AGT's or RAR's in SDR, and those techs change gameplay enough that they could cause someone to prefer SDR over P:M. SDR also has Melee chars that aren't present in P:M, and some players want their chars that they used in Melee. Mewtwo mains can't really find anything like him in any other Smash. Doc mains, sure. Roy mains not really. I'm willing to play both a lot, once I actually acquire SDR.

 

[ELI-mination]

On the one hand you say things are harder to execute in P:M and immediately afterwards say that P:M is easier to play.

Also, I don't see something being "harder to play" as a good thing.

Anyway, I've played both games extensively at high level. My conclusion remains the same.

So it is simply a matter of perspective. It seems 100% like a mental block to me. Whatever game you are most adjusted to currently will "feel better".

 

[GP&B]

I've had little to no problem playing either. There are small things here and there, but nothing in my mind goes near the level of "way easier in Melee/P:M" for anything related to the mechanics.

 

[bubbaking]

You guys get so prissy and moody about the minor details! Why not be like me and enjoy all the games alike?

 

[V-K]

On the one hand you say things are harder to execute in P:M and immediately afterwards say that P:M is easier to play.

Also, I don't see something being "harder to play" as a good thing.

Anyway, I've played both games extensively at high level. My conclusion remains the same.

So it is simply a matter of perspective. It seems 100% like a mental block to me. Whatever game you are most adjusted to currently will "feel better".

I obviously said it's harder to execute things in Melee.

And yeah, the harder to play, the harder to master.

 

[9Kplus1]

@Bubba - Because Melee is a horrible game no matter what happens to it.

 

[Gea]

Well, to be fair, a spiritual sequel doesn't have to be that close to the original subject. It doesn't even have to feel the same. It just has to have a similar motive that influences design choices. Sequels are allowed to shine and flourish on their own, separate of the game that they evolved from. P:M isn't Melee, and I don't expect it to ever be, but it's a good follow-up.

But there already IS a sequel to Melee. Brawl. This project undeniably has emphasis put on it to be "Melee 2.0." If your conscious design philosophies are supposed to so heavily weigh in towards embracing a game that you tout the melee top tiers to be identical to Melee... I mean don't you get what I'm saying? There is no "well to be fair" because the line is continuously drawn and stated that this is Melee but with MORE when in fact it isn't and is only agreed to be as much if pressed with specifics. The project could be totally happy as something entirely unrelated to Melee in name, as it takes many inspirations from all three titles, but the project benefits so much from the obvious perks of being pushed as Melee-centric.

My point is that it is just as much Brawl or 64 as it is Melee. It is a game that rests somewhere between all of these games and likely always will, even if more and more of the engine is fixed to be Melee-esque. My initial point is merely that the game needs to shake off people calling it exactly like Melee or saying "why play Melee because Project M exists." And if it really does want to be Melee 2.0, then it needs to drop the silly additions like Lucario and remain very true to the design philosophies of Melee.

Either way it doesn't matter, my post is just nitpicking the community about something that bugs me with the semantics of this and other mods. The same deal used to happen all the time with Brawl+, which plenty of people claimed was "just like Melee" or a "sequel to Melee" instead of the truth that it was Brawl with some Melee/64 elements thrown back in.

I'd also be interested in what exactly you think are the issues with SDR, it is still in developement and because we don't have many skilled people playtesting (like I have no skill, so I don't think what I would design if I did anything would be great), you posting your concerns is greatly appreciated (at least per PM or in the SD Remix thread)
(Actually, I just remembered you already did that for some characters :D)

The thing is I stopped really responding or playtesting further because I really felt like my opinions were not of serious interest to anyone besides something to mull over for a couple of minutes. Vietgeek was really the only person to respond at all, and I felt like when trying to open up a dialog to discuss the characters deeper I was met with a sort of silence. Part of the issue is that my design philosophies are different and my considerations are certainly different. That is to say that I don't think making all characters with the space animals in mind is a good idea, I think that keeping characters like Falcon and Marth in mind are much better choices and will likely yield the spacies still being maybe the best in the game, but with far more trouble matchups.

Look at the thread right now and the discussion about Link's arrows. Anyone who plays for five minutes will tell you his arrows feel very unnatural and janky in SD Remix, but concerns are brushed off because it is an improvement for Link and his old move was more or less useless. Instead of saying, "here is what Link does well, let's fill in the cracks a bit" the design choices seem to be "this move isn't good enough, let's buff it." My thoughts on Doc in that thread sort of sum up my feelings. Doc was given lots of buffs that he can certainly use but doesn't need to become a good character.

Many characters are simply too fast and it feels silly. GW can outchase his fair's knockback and it feels silly. Not everyone has to be as fast as Falcon/spacies to be a good character. Nor do I think the solution to bowser to be make him super super strong and slightly faster.

Regardless, I am not a member of the design team, nor am I a top recognized player, so my concerns are understandably taken with a grain of salt.

 

[bubbaking]

I like figuring out how to beat OP chars with my mediocre mains, and I like the fun to be had when said OP chars aren't used. Since said OP chars are remaining exactly the same in P:M, I see no reason why P:M should be inflated to a level above Melee. I play P:M because I find the variety fun. It just happens to have stuff that I love from Melee but it also has so many characters. I also enjoy vBrawl, something that I've come more and more to terms with, so I enjoy the fusion of Melee and vBrawl in P:M. I also enjoy Minus.........and Melee......and SSB 64. Saying "this game is nothing like another game" is horrible logic and needs to stop being repeated. I do indeed play P:M because of its similarity to Melee but I also like it for its differences. People should also stop hating on vBrawl (too much). Tripping is stupid, lack of combos is not fun, but the game has its nice points, which are so good that apparently the PMBR decided to keep them in P:M.

Edit: This is not a reply to Gea. But thanks for agreeing with it.

 

[Gea]

I agree with that post 100%

Edit: You're welcome, and don't waste your time responding to me. We're pretty much on the same page