Project M Social Thread

[ph00tbag]

I don't even think Shine beats Lucario, or rather it doesn't need to. Dash dancing and usmash should beat Lucario. I struggle to think of a way Lucario can realistically deal with it without thoroughly outplaying his opponent.

 

[bubbaking]

Lucario is easily the one character I've put the most time into so I'm not theorycrafting lol. DT only helps so much. You can't use it willynilly in either of their faces without having a charge ready to cancel it, which you won't always have. The cooldown on it is definitely long enough for either of them to punish it after landing from a laser. The only real use it has in the MU (besides canceling it) is as a crossup mixup on hit/shield. It doesn't have as much invincibility as you probably think it does.

I'm not sure how you're using DT, but if you DT as soon as Falco hops, the DT ends before Falco reaches the ground or right as he does. It requires a bit of prediction on Lucario's part, but that's not a big deal. I use the move all the time without a cancel. Using DT off of platforms further gives more approach options. To give you an idea of how little lag DT has, I can DT off of a platform on DL64 and still have time to bair before I hit the ground. It has exactly as much invinciibility as I "think it does." As a Lucario main, I also put a great deal of time into this character. If Ben were here, I know he'd vouch that DT has a good deal of invincibility. All you need, tbh.

I would argue that his DA is his one good leading attack, and spacies can bait it pretty hard or just jump over it entirely and beat it with most of their aerials.

Priority only takes him so far when their attacks are literally just faster and stuff out lucario's attacks.

Can you show me video evidence of spacees just stuffing out Lucario's attacks? I'm fairly certain that Lucario can keep up with them in the aerial war if it boils down to that.

 

[DMG]

Prob not. Their nairs should trade although Fox's is much easier to just throw out obv. Bair miiiiight bear Lucario Fair I dunno. Lucario's ground game and the options from his ground game are much better for him to focus on instead of trying to outspace Fox in the air when he may not even go there. Grab FP Dash Attack and Dash Dancing all ground related for him and lead to stuff. Fair or Dair to maybe FP or 2 hit strings isn't comparable.

 

[iLink]

I'm not sure how you're using DT, but if you DT as soon as Falco hops, the DT ends before Falco reaches the ground or right as he does. It requires a bit of prediction on Lucario's part, but that's not a big deal. I use the move all the time without a cancel. Using DT off of platforms further gives more approach options. To give you an idea of how little lag DT has, I can DT off of a platform on DL64 and still have time to bair before I hit the ground. It has exactly as much invinciibility as I "think it does." As a Lucario main, I also put a great deal of time into this character. If Ben were here, I know he'd vouch that DT has a good deal of invincibility. All you need, tbh.



Can you show me video evidence of spacees just stuffing out Lucario's attacks? I'm fairly certain that Lucario can keep up with them in the aerial war if it boils down to that.

I don't have the exact numbers on me right now, but I recall there was a hefty number of vulnerable frames at the end of DT before you can even attack. Go check it out yourself on brawlbox.

Let's not pull the "show me evidence" thing. I can easily ask you to show me video evidence of everything you have been claiming and we both know there isn't enough media on all this yet.

 

[bubbaking]

you're playing very bad peach players if they're relying on CC. peach's neutral game is float spacing and turnips

Well, I was talking about when they're actually being hit. If we're referring to neutral, turnips ain't got nothin' on Lucario when he can just DT through them and punish Peach for throwing them. Cancels aren't needed. It should be even easier than punishing Falco's laser.

Prob not. Their nairs should trade although Fox's is much easier to just throw out obv. Bair miiiiight bear Lucario Fair I dunno. Lucario's ground game and the options from his ground game are much better for him to focus on instead of trying to outspace Fox in the air when he may not even go there. Grab FP Dash Attack and Dash Dancing all ground related for him and lead to stuff. Fair or Dair to maybe FP or 2 hit strings isn't comparable.

You're underestimating Lucario's ASC. That stuff can reliably carry an opponent back to the ground to restart a ground-string.


You know what? Why am I even arguing this stuff? The PMBR is probably going to give Lucario the nerf hammer in v3.0 anyway while the spacees remain exactly the blasted same as they've always been. Their old, blasted, over-centralizing NTSC selves.

 

[Slashy]

Hey this guy is making a stage pack for P:M to create even more legal stages

http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/Bra...61&Moderated=All#ByUserID=13561&Moderated=All

 

[UltiMario]

You know what? Why am I even arguing this stuff? The PMBR is probably going to give Lucario the nerf hammer in v3.0 anyway while the spacees remain exactly the blasted same as they've always been. Their old, blasted, over-centralizing NTSC selves.

Man I bet you'll be stoked about some inevitable sheik changes!

 

[Strong Badam]

you cannot CC while you're in hitstun

 

[bubbaking]

I don't have the exact numbers on me right now, but I recall there was a hefty number of vulnerable frames at the end of DT before you can even attack. Go check it out yourself on brawlbox.

Let's not pull the "show me evidence" thing. I can easily ask you to show me video evidence of everything you have been claiming and we both know there isn't enough media on all this yet.

Oh really?
Skip to 2:42:13 for a good example of a LOW LAG DT being used to approach and punish an action quickly. It should give you an idea on how low its lag really is. If you want a better picture of the invincibility (and the low lag) it has, go to 2:40:09 and progress to about 2:40:40. There should be plenty of examples there. At 2:40:37 specifically, Ben tried to punish the 'lag' of my DT by just standing there (as I DT'd) and then retaliating with a quick Zelda dsmash (her fastest move). She was rewarded with both a spot dodge and a grab from Lucario (you can hear his cries of frustration afterwards ).

Alright, I held up my end of the deal. Why don't you give us some evidence of how punishable Lucario's DT is so I can believe you're not theorycrafting all this?

Edit: Jumping straight to 2:42:13 may have been a bit too close to the action to accurately see what happened, so I'll play it out here: I DT'd at about bottom plat height and was out of DT (lag and all) before I even hit the ground allowing me to jab as soon as I landed.

 

[cannedbread]

why do people still think fox is the best character in the game?

edit: inb4 bcus melee

 

[bubbaking]

bcuz melee

Edit: In all truth, he's still probably the best. I just think Lucario's right up there alongside him now. It saddens me. Absolutely none of the spacees will ever know the pain of being a lower tiered character in any Smash game. Even in vBrawl, Fox is arguably High Tier now, and so is Wolf. Falco is Top Tier, as always.....

#JokingAboutBeingSad

 

[cannedbread]

a human will never be top tier

#cryingmarths

 

[bubbaking]

Marth is Top Tier in vBrawl, as is Snake, and Wario.

 

[cannedbread]

nonono high tier

meta knight is the top tier

 

[GHNeko]

You know what? Why am I even arguing this stuff? The PMBR is probably going to give Lucario the nerf hammer in v3.0 anyway while the spacees remain exactly the blasted same as they've always been. Their old, blasted, over-centralizing NTSC selves.

You do realize that despite Fox being #1 on paper and Falco being...well...Falco...

There is a lot of stuff in P:M that drastically increases the punishment of making a mistake as spacies right?

ie anti-spacie technology.

The characters may or may not change in future versions, but if they don't, the fact that they're being played by humans will be enough of a nerf to spacies themselves when human mistakes mean that much more in a spacie MU.

 

[cannedbread]

thank you papa neko that's very reassuring

i for one don't welcome our space animal overlords

 

[Kink-Link5]

why do people still think fox is the best character in the game?

edit: inb4 bcus melee

Because dashdance pewpew bloopbloopbloop U-throw uair killing at 60%


Dashdance is a lot of it though.

 

[GHNeko]

I guess in a sense, Spacies were nerfed.

Their margin of error was nerfed indirectly by a moderate amount; by allowing a lot more characters to body spacies off a single mistakes, and on top of that new anti-spacie CP stages reduce that margin of error even more.

The demand for perfection in playing spacies in P:M is higher now, and at a high skill level, will be drastically higher once players learn MUs and start abusing CPs.

 

[Hylian]

Uthrow uair is easy to DI out of, people shouldn't be dying to that or even getting hit by it 90% of the time lol. I don't think fox is nearly as good as he was in melee(not like he won stuff in melee anyways) and the amount of viable characters really doesn't make spacies seem that special. They will still be amazing characters but there are plenty of other amazing characters and match-ups are varied and not so clear now.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Characters have to "win stuff" to be good? Results based analysis is really bad. Peach becomes the best character because Armada when she's clearly not :/

 

[GHNeko]

Depends on how you create your tiers.

TFGs go strictly of MU charts that are a accumulation of many different players ie the community.

We use a backroom that uses not only MU charts, but tournament performance.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

You do realize that despite Fox being #1 on paper and Falco being...well...Falco...

There is a lot of stuff in P:M that drastically increases the punishment of making a mistake as spacies right?

ie anti-spacie technology.

The characters may or may not change in future versions, but if they don't, the fact that they're being played by humans will be enough of a nerf to spacies themselves when human mistakes mean that much more in a spacie MU.

this is a terrible argument, with this type of thinking it becomes impossible to nerf any character... well lucario might combo to 70% on one hit by he is controlled by a human so he will make a mistake plus if he messes up he could be punished. (insert any character and get the same results)

saying a character is balanced b/c humans play the game is a joke and besides not wanted to upset some people there is no good reason not to at least change fox and falco to their pal versions

 

[GHNeko]

lol. its what happens in matches.

you know.

in real life.

spacies make mistakes and get bodied.

:x

Besides, i said, "in a sense"

which you should of read and picked up on and understood I didn't mean generally or ultimately, but rather, "one way to look at it is..."



So no, I don't think spacies are balanced by any means because I assume perfection when talking about tier placement and viability. And never think or imply that I would think otherwise.


Anywho. time to go on my journey of improvement.

<3 you all.

 

[Hylian]

Characters have to "win stuff" to be good? Results based analysis is really bad. Peach becomes the best character because Armada when she's clearly not :/

There is nothing wrong with taking results into account, in fact it would be bad not to. It's of course bad to only take results into account, but you can look at results and character data/match-ups and weigh them all equally to come to a conclusion about a character. It's also good to look for trends with characters, you have seen Falco/Marth/Jigs and even peach winning all the huge tournaments over the past 5-8 years with fox winning practically nothing, despite so many people playing fox. There is a distinct reason for this, and that is how high the technical threshold for playing fox is coupled with how easy he is to 0-death and gimp. It's not even about the player making a mistake, they will inevitably be baited or outspaced and then lose a stock because of it. The reason falco does better in tournaments despite having the same weaknesses as fox is because he has the best approach in the game and his combos are harder to drop + he has a better recovery(though not by much, and some people may think I'm crazy for saying that, but I know several top players who agree with me including mango. Falco is just harder to gimp than fox).

A character can be the best character in the game, but it doesn't make them the best character to play and win tournaments with.

 

[Professor Pro]

I find it kind of hard to argue that lucario is better then fox and falco.

Also I would like to hear some solid MU's that are in Snake's favor.

I've already said that I feel Snake can **** the Spacies and Puff and the majority of the Brawl Characters and I told you the MU's that I and other players have been complaining about (showing a consensus in his bad MU's) which are mostly Marth & Sheik but I also think Peach
I haven't played against every person who is best with every character in the game to give you a full detailed list of everything that is in his favour and not because I could be wrong and im still learning.

But the only reason I have seen you say so far for Snake being worst in the game is

'I picked him up, and I couldn't play with him and every MU in the game seemed not in my favour'

You've seen footage of what Snake is capable of, and if you still think he is the worst in the game then there's no point in discussing anymore lol.

Edit - Actually one question, since you feel you have a good idea of Snake I was wondering what's your opinion of the MU's that are clearly not in his favour, you have a huge list to pick from since you said every MU is against him but give me his Top 15 worst lol.

 

[BJN39]

I don't have a smashmods account yet, so I was wondering if someone could post this on the ICs char suggestion board. Keep the grappling properties on their up B, so that when ICs become solo IC, it can be a grapple recovery... If possible.

I thought it sounded cool/useful, so I wondered if someone else could post or consider this.

 

[UltiMario]

The sort of point of SoPo is to suck. Good recovery on SoPo is a Nono =p

 

[BJN39]

> _ >

...Ugh...Umm...maybe solo IC could have something, because too many MUs seem to become 10:90 when you lose 2nd IC and some chars take huge advantage of that by being able to kill IC2 very fast so... Yeah.

 

[Kink-Link5]

There is nothing wrong with taking results into account, in fact it would be bad not to. It's of course bad to only take results into account, but you can look at results and character data/match-ups and weigh them all equally to come to a conclusion about a character. It's also good to look for trends with characters, you have seen Falco/Marth/Jigs and even peach winning all the huge tournaments over the past 5-8 years with fox winning practically nothing, despite so many people playing fox. There is a distinct reason for this, and that is how high the technical threshold for playing fox is coupled with how easy he is to 0-death and gimp. It's not even about the player making a mistake, they will inevitably be baited or outspaced and then lose a stock because of it. The reason falco does better in tournaments despite having the same weaknesses as fox is because he has the best approach in the game and his combos are harder to drop + he has a better recovery(though not by much, and some people may think I'm crazy for saying that, but I know several top players who agree with me including mango. Falco is just harder to gimp than fox).

A character can be the best character in the game, but it doesn't make them the best character to play and win tournaments with.

I don't disagree that a tier list can be used to give an approximation of what to expect from the character in a tournament, but I just don't agree about weighing results equally or even close to equally to how the character performs strictly against other characters. Results only tell a very small part of the story. A more fair attribution of factors for tier placing would be something like Matchups taking account for at least 50-70%, because frankly, what else is the game but 900 matchups on 11-17 stages? Okay so that's at least 9900 matchups to account for, so it isn't easy to evaluate. Well other than matchups, there are strict character traits "theory craft" basically. This can probably account for 10-30% of analyzing a character, and it assumes a bit too much about the opponent without regard to the character they're using. The last however much percent can be attributed to analyzing results in post, but it's far from weighing equally against the other parts that go into comparing characters. Personally, I divide character analyses into 10% theory, 5% results, 35% matchups, and 50% "proven top," which is to say, the top level play shown of every character and how it compares to the top players of other characters. This accounts for what is done in the past with the character as well as prevents placing being skewed because of "bad players" in a character or high frequency of human error. It is subject to change over time as characters come out of the woodwork with new technology, but in effect, that also affects the character's understood matchups and results as well, which is why it matters so much.

Basically it means the only Melee Pikachu that really matters is Axe and it doesn't matter that he's the only one showing Pikachu's capabilities, the point is that he is showing them.

I think Fox and Falco's recoveries are both pretty stupidly good, but I can see arguments for either one being better than the other.

> _ >

...Ugh...Umm...maybe solo IC could have something, because too many MUs seem to become 10:90 when you lose 2nd IC and some chars take huge advantage of that by being able to kill IC2 very fast so... Yeah.

Feel free to discuss Ice Climber ideas here!

 

[UltiMario]

> _ >

...Ugh...Umm...maybe solo IC could have something, because too many MUs seem to become 10:90 when you lose 2nd IC and some chars take huge advantage of that by being able to kill IC2 very fast so... Yeah.

Tell that to ChuDat and Wobbles

 

[BJN39]

*Sigh*

I don't have a smashmods account yet,

And even though it sounds silly, I don't think I'll be making an account there very soon.

@Ultimario: I just mean it's sorta a handicap that would be cool if solo IC was okay enough to not be made awful by the AI 2nd climber dieing.

 

[bubbaking]

About using tourney results in tier lists, I'll just post here what I said on smashmods:

Every Smash tier list has always factored in tourney results as at least a part of the tier list's creation. Tournament results are a practical test of how well a character does in a competitive setting against other characters. That same information is what is displayed in a tier list, modified by other factors. It's part of statistics. In fact, multiple tournament results are the only way to truly gauge how well a character does overall in a competitive setting. Not only does it factor in MUs and the current competitive environment (like who is being used more frequently), it also measures consistency and how frequently a char can prove a certain theory correctly before failing.

In vBrawl, Olimar is currently #2, despite having a WORSE MU spread than the ICs. The ICs are #4, despite having a BETTER MU spread than every single char in the game except MK. Tier lists are a prediction of a certain char's ability to win a tournament. Actual statistical data (tourney results) prove or refute these predictions, and thus the predictions must be changed to match the data. Theorycrafting can only get you so far.

Heck, how in the world is Peach where she is in the Melee tier list, despite having losing MUs against Fox, Jiggs, Sheik, Marth, and Falcon, and only having an even MU against Falco? She also goes even with janky characters like Ganon and Samus. How the heck does a char with such a bad MU spread end up so high on a Tier List? Her MU spread is the worst out of all the Top/High Tiers. It is because a tier list is not just the "top known capability of those characters compared to the top known capability of others." It's so much more complex than that.

 

[SpiderMad]

Nana's AI is better in vBrawl than Melee

 

[bubbaking]

'Tis true, 'tis true....

What do you call a Fox with a shine?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nana's AI is better in vBrawl than Melee

Better in the sense that she actively tries to recover, yes. Taking out Nana is much less trivial with Brawl AI where it's a matter of just throwing her off stage in Melee.

 

[BJN39]

'Tis true, 'tis true....

What do you call a Fox with a shine?

A Starfox?

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

this is a terrible argument, with this type of thinking it becomes impossible to nerf any character... well lucario might combo to 70% on one hit by he is controlled by a human so he will make a mistake plus if he messes up he could be punished. (insert any character and get the same results)

saying a character is balanced b/c humans play the game is a joke and besides not wanted to upset some people there is no good reason not to at least change fox and falco to their pal versions

I'm pretty sure bringing that up is rather pointless. IIRC the PMBR has already said spacies are staying NTSC. Your example of applying it to other characters also makes little sense- you'll make a mistake as spacies because no one has 1 frame reaction time. If a character requires a tech mistake to be punished and doesn't have an insane tech barrier then yes, this character would be broken, but I don't believe we've seen such a character emerge in PM outside of GaW.

#coolkidsthinkGaWisbrokeded

 

[bubbaking]

Give her the current lvl 9 computer AI! Lolz.

'What do you call a Fox with a shine?

A Starfox?

Of course not! A fox with a shine is fine! A fox without a shine is certainly not fine.....but it would be fine for me!

#LamestJokeOfAllTime

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry.
10sorries.

 

[BJN39]

I believe Zelda goes even with Fox, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon, and Mario.

Discuss how much you disagree.