Project M Social Thread

[ELI-mination]

Snake ***** spacies.
And Jigglypuff.

 

[bubbaking]

"Instant - adj. - succeeding without any interval of time; prompt; immediate; occurring, done, or prepared with a minimal amount of time and effort; produced rapidly and with little preparation; designed to act or produce results quickly or immediately."

Sounds a lot more like a Z-catch than an AD Catch (which is what I'm gonna call your so-called "Instant Catch" from now on). Doing something in "every situation" does not imply 'instantaneous-ness,' speed does and the lag of an action is included in an action's speed.

You most certainly are talking derogatorily.

You're frustrating to have a conversation with because you continue the conversation without understanding what the other person said in the first place. You argue over points that the other person never made. It's like two conversations going on that have nothing to do with each other.

Like "What makes the sky orange at night?"
"I don't think so, gravity only attracts objects, it never repels them"
"...What."

Seriously, what is your problem? That's why I asked for CLARIFICATION! This was my exact post:

Can you clarify this? For one, how is your definition of "Item Catch" any less 'instantaneous' than your definition of "Instant Catch"? Or are you saying that an Instant Catch has to be the precursor to an Instant Throw? Can't an "Instant Catch" simply be called an "AD Catch"?

Secondly, what do you mean by the bolded portion above? When would an AD catch something that a Z-catch wouldn't?

Your response was "read things with better understanding." That most certainly is a derogatory statement and now you're saying that I'M the one who's unpleasant to have a conversation with because of misunderstandings.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Air dodge is the only thing that is an instant catch because it is the only thing that can catch an item in every situation. When Z does not catch things, Air Dodge will. Hence, "Instant."

You don't have to wait to air dodge catch, so it is "Instant." You have to wait before you can item catch, so it is not instant.

It is called an "instant" catch because it happens instantly, without having to wait.

But you do have to wait the couple of frames it takes you to AD into the object. I don't see how doing it in any situation implies it being instant. You can REcatch something you recently dropped faster if you AD but that's only in that specific situation.

He's trying to say that "instant catch" is a misnomer since it's not even the fastest way to catch an item except in one particular situation.

 

[bubbaking]

Yes. Thank you Mattnumbers. (-_-)

 

[Kink-Link5]

How isn't something that happens instantly instant?

We can call it a, "Very quick catch," if you want, but it really does not give weight to the value or description of what happens. We can also call wavedashing, "Very quick airdodge land sliding," since there is no dash, nor is there any uniform, patterned particle motion occurring when it is done.

 

[bubbaking]

At this point, Kinky Link is just trolling us... (-_-')

AD Catch is 100% accurate. Call it that. Utilizing names like "Instant Catch" is just prone to confuse someone, especially when it isn't accurate. It most certainly confused me. Z-catch catches with Z and AD Catch catches with an AD (I repeated myself, just the way you like it Kink). There's absolutely no way these terms can be confused for something else.

 

[iLink]

So many bad MU's? Against who? And I would argue that nearly any MU is a bad MU for G&W. IMO, G&W vs Zard is one of the few MUs that Zard just straight-up wins.

I'd be willing to say GaW beats snake, at least goes even with zard if not beats him, and can give ganon and lucario a hard time.

Those are just a few I've tried.

When I used Snake, I literally felt like I didn't have a single MU in my favor.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Except I'm not. Being right and trolling are two different things. Trolling is something done to incite negative reactions in a public setting. Making the other person look a fool in their reaction to what you've done in order to feel powerful.

Air dodge catch only describes a part of the phenomenon, and applies to any occurrence of catching any item with an air dodge. Instant catch refers specifically to the situation of grabbing an item from the air using an air dodge when Z normally would be unable to. Because this happens very quickly compared to the time that has to pass before Z will grab an item, and occurs within an extremely brief time frame, it can accurately be described as being "Instant" for all layman's purposes. It does not occur in 10^(-43) seconds, so no, it is not a literal instant of time, but it occurs far faster than anything else that can be done to pick up an item.

It is a very specific technique that occurs under very specific circumstances. Simply catching with an air dodge can happen at any time.

You were the one to bring up that Wavedashing is specifically different than Wavelanding, so I don't see how you have a problem discerning between Instantly Catching and Air Dodge Catching.

This is why it's frustrating talking to you Bubba. At one point you'll argue over semantics, and then the next say that the other person is just trolling because they don't agree with you. Do you have any idea how hurtful that is, to be accused of something like that? I don't think you do.

 

[bubbaking]

If you know they won't respond, then that's when you need to go in. Going in with something like sideb and wavedashing to cancel it right outside of their zone of attack range is going to provoke some kind of response. If they don't respond at all, you have a mess of different options at that point.

Bowser can literally just shield and react to anything Sonic does with Fortress OoS. Snake can Cypher. When Samus comes, she'll be able to UpB OoS, too, to punish anything Sonic does. Those are just some simple examples of punishing Sonic while remaining conservative in the way of acting at neutral.

 

[iLink]

And sonic doesn't have the speed to just run in and grab if he's sitting in his shield? He is going to cause a reaction one way or another. If bowser is sitting in his shield, sonic will run in and grab. What if fortress hits before he grabs? Well try running in and shielding first.

You make it seems like he literally has no options and the opponent can respond to everything within a 10 frame window with no problem.

 

[foshio]

I'd be willing to say GaW beats snake, at least goes even with zard if not beats him, and can give ganon and lucario a hard time.

Those are just a few I've tried.

When I used Snake, I literally felt like I didn't have a single MU in my favor.

You gotta watch prof pro. He makes snake look broken! I think a big part of snakes game is being very perceptive no matter the matchup. Like maybe if you're trying to use him like your former mains (or brawl snake) it will completely ruin his game and make him very exploitable

 

[Kink-Link5]

Oh wait, I get it now. Bubba accuses others of trolling three posts after saying

What is the PMBR doing giving opinions?

It's that new age meta-trolling that's all the rage.

Bowser can't Fortress on reaction to everything any more than every other character can powershield on reaction to everything. Bowser can still beat Sonic but it has little to do with Fortress and everything to do with outprioritising.

 

[bubbaking]

And sonic doesn't have the speed to just run in and grab if he's sitting in his shield? He is going to cause a reaction one way or another. If bowser is sitting in his shield, sonic will run in and grab. What if fortress hits before he grabs? Well try running in and shielding first.

You make it seems like he literally has no options and the opponent can respond to everything within a 10 frame window with no problem.

I literally just watched this MU happen at Eli's today and I've watched it take place a dozen times on other dates at other locations. Bowser can remain non-committal and still react to everything Sonic does. If they trade, Bowser wins. UpB OoS is a very viable strategy against Sonic.

 

[iLink]

I don't think any character is that bad. I think everyone is at least viable. I'm also definitely not using him anywhere close to what brawl snake players like.

I just honestly don't feel like he has any matchup in his favor and his best ones are just even.

I literally just watched this MU happen at Eli's today and I've watched it take place a dozen times on other dates at other locations. Bowser can remain non-committal and still react to everything Sonic does. If they trade, Bowser wins. UpB OoS is a very viable strategy against Sonic.

You can say that about bowser against any character that doesn't have a projectile basically.

 

[bubbaking]

Yet somehow, Ganon ***** Bowser. And so does Ike. And Marth.

 

[iLink]

How would ganon **** bowser? Can't bowser just stand there and UpB on reaction to anything?

Also my point was that sonics need to stop running into ****, like you explained pretty much happened. I already explained different scenarios and different ways to bait/avoid stuff. It's just up to the sonic player to actually do the right thing.

 

[ELI-mination]

This is the liability of theory-crafting.
You can look at Sonic, realize he's really fast and can run away, and say things like he should just run away, bait, and therefore he's good.
Problem is, it's not practical enough so that Sonic players do it with 100% consistency millions of times getting their 2-3% damage in each time without being punished and actually WIN the match.

Jigglypuff can fly around and "theoretically" you can't ever hit her. Might as well pick Jigglypuff and take 0% every match.

 

[bubbaking]

See, unlike Sonic, Ganon has a fast, moving grab that sets up for a whole bunch of stuff and can also be performed in the air. Unlike Sonic, Ganon has a CG from 0 to death on Bowser. Unlike Sonic, Ganon can compete with Bowser's range and can outright kill him.

 

[iLink]

It's not really just theory-craft. I just see the potential there for a lot of stuff that people aren't doing, and I think sonic's need to explore their options more in MU's instead of just going "lol hitboxes > everything I do"

See, unlike Sonic, Ganon has a fast, moving grab that sets up for a whole bunch of stuff and can also be performed in the air. Unlike Sonic, Ganon has a CG from 0 to death on Bowser. Unlike Sonic, Ganon compete with Bowser's range and can outright kill him.

You mean that grab with the grab box that is literally at his shoulder, exposing his arm which doesn't grab? Not to mention the noticeable startup and being able to punish it if it whiffs.

 

[ELI-mination]

It's not really just theory-craft. I just see the potential there for a lot of stuff that people aren't doing, and I think sonic's need to explore their options more in MU's instead of just going "lol hitboxes > everything I do"

I don't think it's something Sonic players do INSTEAD of exploring their options.
It's just the inevitable conclusion they come to.
And interestingly enough, it's a tad difficult to argue with. You know, cuz it's true.

#ProvingMyTheories

 

[bubbaking]

That kind of is theorycrafting.... Darn you Eli for proving your points!

 

[iLink]

You can look at any recent sonic video. More often then not, the sonic is getting hit from literally just running into attacks.

EDIT: Ok it is kind of theory-crafting, but there is some practice behind it that makes me explore the thought.

 

[bubbaking]

Pm is certainly the most balanced smash game. For now atleast. It's funny how they were able to do so much with balance without flat out nerfing.

Excuse me? Sheik cries out foul on this one.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I can't think of anything of Sheik's that is a flat out nerf. D-throw is strictly better than PAL Melee, and harder to DI than NTSC Melee. It's changed with aspects that are better and worse than in Melee, not purely nerfed.

 

[GP&B]

PM DThrow and BThrow plus sped up throw animations would beg to differ. Would agree that it's not a straight nerf.

 

[bubbaking]

Eli's the best but he also sucks. Discuss.

#Clearlybored

 

[GHNeko]

Throw changes on Shiek = Trade offs, not nerf.

 

[bubbaking]

Ok.
10oks.

 

[F. Blue]

Up-B OoS does not work with tap jump turned off. Why?

Ness' PK thunder is eaten by walls even when traveling straight up. Why?

Yoshi's Story Clouds aren't animated, The Dracula's Castle moon is in front of the clouds, Wifi lobbies still make references to 'Brawl', why?

 

[hotdogturtle]

Up-B OoS does not work with tap jump turned off. Why?

Because you can't jump if you turn off the jump feature.

 

[ELI-mination]

Finally figured out how to record replays with Dolphin. OMG it's sooooooooo annoying to do, lol.

#I'veSeenBetterDays

 

[bubbaking]

UpB OoS is actually a jump cancelled by upB, I believe. Therefore, you need up to cause you to jump. If you turn tap jump off, you lose this ability.

Finally figured out how to record replays with Dolphin. OMG it's sooooooooo annoying to do, lol.

#I'veSeenBetterDays

Replays coming soon?

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

So does this seem like I'm using Link's F-tilt right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-r5qKmYacg&list=PL54DD4B4BF0D008A3&index=33&feature=plpp_video

No one has answered this yet :/

I can't learn to use it right without help

 

[Kink-Link5]

Ness' PK thunder is eaten by walls even when traveling straight up. Why?

Because the collision detection for the move causes it to overlap the collision of the stage when done too close to it.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Also, does anyone else feel like crouch cancelling is too strong? I don't remember it being this strong in melee

 

[GHNeko]

Up-B OoS does not work with tap jump turned off. Why?

Ness' PK thunder is eaten by walls even when traveling straight up. Why?

Yoshi's Story Clouds aren't animated, The Dracula's Castle moon is in front of the clouds, Wifi lobbies still make references to 'Brawl', why?

See posts above for tap jump answer. If you still want to up B OOS without tap jump, you need to press X/Y to jump oos and then immediately up B.

See previous posts for answer.

Oversight. Oversight. Oversight.

 

[Kink-Link5]

CC'ing is a lot stronger now that Tech Rolls don't carry momentum. You can CC SDI launch moves at high percents and live where you'd normally be ripped off the stage in Melee.

Basically you can do this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei-iOIN32i4 ) without having to do any actual canceling of the momentum.

 

[bubbaking]

I feel like CCing is stronger now even without accounting for the new tech mechanics. As Lucario, I've found myself CCing fairly strong stuff well into the hundreds, even though Lucario isn't a heavyweight. I've also observed some heavyweights CCing stuff past 150%.

Spacies don't dominate the Melee metagame. Sure there are a lot of them, but FC Legacy was the first major tournament that a spacy "won" (I put "won" in quotes because Mango used other characters for important matches) in several years.

Does this mean that we're just flat-out ignoring Zenith and ROM 4? Spacees won both of those.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Something's been bothering me, I see videos where people transform from Zelda to Shiek back and forth and it only takes about 1 second, with my Wii it takes about 3-4 full seconds

CC'ing is a lot stronger now that Tech Rolls don't carry momentum. You can CC SDI launch moves at high percents and live where you'd normally be ripped off the stage in Melee.

Basically you can do this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei-iOIN32i4 ) without having to do any actual canceling of the momentum.

I meant more like, in melee when I got hit by Fox's jab after about 25% I think, I couldn't crouch cancel to stay on the ground and attack anymore, but in P:M I can CC at like 75%

And is the momentum an issue that can be fixed? Or is it like the melee tethers which are just entirely impossible?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Whoever said melee tethers are entirely impossible?
Them not knowing how to fix it does not imply impossibility, only that it will take time.

Oh and iirc SCD has a lot to do with why CCing is better.
That's another one of the things on PMBR's to-do list, or so I'm told.