Project M Social Thread

[Spoon~]

Isn't Mario's tornado boosting recovery enough?

 

[OmegaMuffin]

It's really close to the demo's release date, and the PMBR is trying to finalize the characters and stages that they have. Trying to tack on an additional stage that currently isn't in their roster at all would require them to deviate from the hard work that they're currently doing (and probably would cause them to have to check the stage's blast zones, size, creating a stage icon for it, and all that other jazz that I'm probably forgetting), and delay the demo considerably, which is something that no one wants.

If you really want the stage yourself, just replace it over another stage that isn't too popular and/or you never play (say, 75m).

Or maybe it's already in?

 

[9Kplus1]

Isn't Mario's tornado boosting recovery enough?

People haven't been satisfied with the unfinished, unavailable, invisible version of P:M for the past two years. Apparently, every solid character still needs to be buffed even more. Nevermind the Easter Eggs scattered throughout Project:M, each of the already fantastic characters needs to scream "nostalgia" and / or "broken".

That said, Zelda needs buffs. The ***** sucks in this game.

 

[Vigilante]

People haven't been satisfied with the unfinished, unavailable, invisible version of P:M for the past two years. Apparently, every solid character still needs to be buffed even more. Nevermind the Easter Eggs scattered throughout Project:M, each of the already fantastic characters needs to scream "nostalgia" and / or "broken".

That said, Zelda needs buffs. The ***** sucks in this game.

I really, really HATE YOU! Hug me! <3 *Tsundere*

It's hard to tell. Ryoko is really darn good with Zelda, but as a whole, he's an incredibly talented player who could potentially make weaker characters look good. You really htink Zelda needs buffs? I'm just curious to see your take on Zelda with more detail.

 

[9Kplus1]

Spoiler

Nonono, I always say that for the purpose of trolling.

Zelda is solid <_>

 

[iLink]

I think that was a joke about how Zelda already seems good yet Ryoko seems to keep buffing her.

Or something along those lines.

 

[9Kplus1]

I think that was a joke about how Zelda already seems good yet Ryoko seems to keep buffing her.

Or something along those lines.

I don't recall Ryoko buffing Zelda at all. Zelda has only been made into a viable character, which calls for some obvious buffs; however, Zelda doesn't boast any unnecessary buffs. I, occasionally, will joke about Zelda being as bad as her Melee counterpart -- a reference to P:M being "Melee 2.0". Because I'm not a notable Smasher, my word, more than likely, won't be taken seriously by any of the devs, but the minority of the community might just believe that my claim is serious. Consequently, said members might have an emotional reaction, achieving my initial goal; i.e, I would've managed to successfully troll one or more person. In other cases, I'll simply use it as a means of being an annoyance or making [awkward] conversation.

I guess that it's now time to suck another joke completely dry >.>

 

[ph00tbag]

Zelda seems alright to me. She has a clear weakness in how easy it is for faster characters to manipulate her positioning, which is compensated for by her ability to control the spaces where she's otherwise ineffective, and by her high damage output. Farore's Wind could possibly be a tad bit on the strong side, given poor mobility is supposed to be her weak point, but unless there's a serious push to get Fox nerfed, then I don't see the point in complaining about Zelda.

 

[Stevo]

mario tornado is a poorly designed move. it almost never helps you recover at all in melee. I've seen it help about 3 times in the 10 years I've played melee.

It would still suck with spiking on the last hit, bu at least it would be more cool. Right now it just sucks.

Mario's fireballs (even with doc tragectory) are also plenty worse than docs pills. the fireballs move too fast and do less damage. P:M Mario is basically doc minus pills plus mario f-smash and random little things mario did better. Mario:M is solid I'm sure, as even doc was pretty solid in melee, but he is by no means too balanced to no have a small tweak to him. The bloody mario tornado is useless anyway. Have any of you even played mario/doc in melee?

 

[ph00tbag]

I'd rather see dtilt buffed than tornado, personally. There's not really a use that can be gleaned from what tornado currently does. Dtilt could be a reasonably effective poke/shield stab, but after the hit box comes out, Mario just kinda sits there contemplating his navel, and he gets punished whether he hit his opponent or not.

 

[UltiMario]

Making Tornado a less ****ty recovery aid would be ****ing amazing.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think Zelda has too much room for exploitation and that she'll be a problem eventually if the game is ever played on a large scale. But it's just a theory, and I'm not sure if she's been nerfed from what I played a month ago.

 

[Spoon~]

mario tornado is a poorly designed move. it almost never helps you recover at all in melee. I've seen it help about 3 times in the 10 years I've played melee.

It would still suck with spiking on the last hit, bu at least it would be more cool. Right now it just sucks.

Mario's fireballs (even with doc tragectory) are also plenty worse than docs pills. the fireballs move too fast and do less damage. P:M Mario is basically doc minus pills plus mario f-smash and random little things mario did better. Mario:M is solid I'm sure, as even doc was pretty solid in melee, but he is by no means too balanced to no have a small tweak to him. The bloody mario tornado is useless anyway. Have any of you even played mario/doc in melee?

Yeah its awful in melee, but have you even seen any of the playtesters use it? Its gives you a decent boost in p:m.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Nevermind the Easter Eggs scattered throughout Project:M, each of the already fantastic characters needs to scream "nostalgia" and / or "broken".

Because, sometimes, an improvement makes things worse.

 

[Stevo]

Characters don't have to all be amazing. if mario is fun and plays well, then that is fine. However, don't tell me that Mario is too good to have a nostalgic tweak to a useless move. I don't even know what the counter argument is for that change. All I've seen is that people think he doesn't need a buff. First of all, it can barely be called a buff, and mario is in no way too good to make any changes.

I also think his up-air should end a few frames faster to match his bair.

I was gonna reserve bringin this up again till after I played demo 2, but someone else brought it up.

I am pretty good with melee Zelda so I will comment on her post-demo 2

 

[Blarg I'm Dead]

Wolf should be able to taunt cancel howling and "What's the matter, scared?"

 

[Stevo]

Yeah its awful in melee, but have you even seen any of the playtesters use it? Its gives you a decent boost in p:m.

I thought it gave the same height as melee. I could very well be wrong. If that is the case, I retract my opinion for the time being.

 

[Giygacoal]

Wolf should be able to taunt cancel howling and "What's the matter, scared?"

Easy enough with ledge taunt canceling.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I thought that option was added for every character.

 

[Mattnumbers]

It doesn't work with taunts where the audio doesn't come out for a bit. Those two taunts are included in that category, well at least the howl one not sure about "What's the matter, scared!"

 

[Vigilante]

I thought that option was added for every character.

You're right.

 

[Giygacoal]

Does Wolf's work in the way he wants then?

 

[genkaku]

Mario:M is great.
Zelda was pretty good in melee until you got hit. Then she was terrible.

A little off center of the discussion, but something to consider:
sometimes instead of asking for buffs I think we should just get better. Scorpion Master got 2nd place (to m2k's sheik...) his second tournament with melee mario. While their inherent moveset is part of their problem, the majority of the mid-tiers are held back far more by the lack of a developing meta-game. When someone with a better than average understanding of that moveset appears then you get players like Kage, Axe, Plup, etc. Look at what Armada has done to peach or what mango and hbox did to puff. Imagine how much more balanced melee would appear if you doubled the size of the scene and then took 50% of the spacies mains and made them main mid or mid/low tiers so that their meta game did not soley rely on a handful of good players. Just because no one bothers to learn how to use a character does not mean that they are terrible. While some buffs are obviously needed, I think it is important to remember that fox and falco have 10 years of development by more top-level players than the rest of the cast almost combined. If you buff a character with a fraction of that development so that a mediocre player can go even with a spacies player, do not be surprised when a good player shows up and uses those new tools even better and ends up revealing them to be far closer to (if not blatantly) OP than was anticipated. The goal, then, should be to allow these characters the tools necessary to develop into themselves and give them space and resources to grow rather than just making them ****. This has a lot to do with that post by jang (I think that's his tag...) a while back about universal buffs vs. design.

I don't mean this as a "omg, PMBR is making everything OP because they're ignorant" at all. I mean this as something for us posters to consider when suggesting buffs, especially with a "well it couldn't hurt" perspective. Let's say we added 2 more seconds to Peach's float. Not that big a buff until Pink Shinobi gets ahold of it, then it's a game changer in a detrimental way. Let's say we added a little bit of range to puff's bair (says sakurai) or make Ylink pull a bomb a fraction of a second faster. Fine, until bad players end up using those slight improvements to time you out. Small changes can have big consequences for the worse. Other changes (best example I can think of is link:M being generally more fluid and faster) can do worlds of good. It's a difficult thing to gauge.

 

[Shadic]

You've explained exactly why we can't release a game where instantly on Gold Release we could say "everybody is top tier," or whatever.

A metagame has to develop. We ultimately have no idea where the scales of balance will end up. We may know a Melee-esque game rather well, but we're not omnipotent.

 

[Spoon~]

Hahah words of Sneak, "Get better".

 

[metroid1117]

Mario:M is great.
Zelda was pretty good in melee until you got hit. Then she was terrible.

A little off center of the discussion, but something to consider:
sometimes instead of asking for buffs I think we should just get better. Scorpion Master got 2nd place (to m2k's sheik...) his second tournament with melee mario. While their inherent moveset is part of their problem, the majority of the mid-tiers are held back far more by the lack of a developing meta-game. When someone with a better than average understanding of that moveset appears then you get players like Kage, Axe, Plup, etc. Look at what Armada has done to peach or what mango and hbox did to puff. Imagine how much more balanced melee would appear if you doubled the size of the scene and then took 50% of the spacies mains and made them main mid or mid/low tiers so that their meta game did not soley rely on a handful of good players. Just because no one bothers to learn how to use a character does not mean that they are terrible. While some buffs are obviously needed, I think it is important to remember that fox and falco have 10 years of development by more top-level players than the rest of the cast almost combined. If you buff a character with a fraction of that development so that a mediocre player can go even with a spacies player, do not be surprised when a good player shows up and uses those new tools even better and ends up revealing them to be far closer to (if not blatantly) OP than was anticipated. The goal, then, should be to allow these characters the tools necessary to develop into themselves and give them space and resources to grow rather than just making them ****. This has a lot to do with that post by jang (I think that's his tag...) a while back about universal buffs vs. design.

I don't mean this as a "omg, PMBR is making everything OP because they're ignorant" at all. I mean this as something for us posters to consider when suggesting buffs, especially with a "well it couldn't hurt" perspective. Let's say we added 2 more seconds to Peach's float. Not that big a buff until Pink Shinobi gets ahold of it, then it's a game changer in a detrimental way. Let's say we added a little bit of range to puff's bair (says sakurai) or make Ylink pull a bomb a fraction of a second faster. Fine, until bad players end up using those slight improvements to time you out. Small changes can have big consequences for the worse. Other changes (best example I can think of is link:M being generally more fluid and faster) can do worlds of good. It's a difficult thing to gauge.

I agree with you in that a metagame needs to develop before buffing characters, but I just want to point some things out.

1. I'm not sure if you're aware of this (you never make this point, so I'm assuming you don't), but Scorpion Master is Mango's alias when he's trolling with Mario. Yes, Mario is a terrible character compared to the likes of Falcon, Fox, Falco, etc., but that just shows you how much better Mango is compared to other top players; it doesn't necessarily mean that Mario has some hidden potential (Mango's stated in an interview [I don't know when or in which of the three parts though] that Mario sucks), it's just that Mango is so much smarter than the other top players that attended that tournament.

2. Some people choose who they main based on how those characters do in tournament, but other people choose their mains based on personal preference. HugS, the best Samus on the West Coast, said that people have told him to switch to top tier characters so he would perform better in tournament but he refused because Samus just suited his style more than other characters. Likewise, if Fox/Falco suits a player's style, then they will perform best with that character; I don't believe you can say taking Fox/Falco mains and asking them to devote time to other characters will cause a significant development in a metagame.

Also, Gimpyfish said on a stream once that Eggz, who was a Mario main, became uncreative after switching to Fox; it's this sort of creativity that causes lower-tiered character's metagame to develop. Therefore, Fox/Falco mains won't necessarily be able to contribute to a lower-tiered character's metagame because of some player's lack of creativity. Getting more players to play a character will won't do much if those players can't make new tricks.

Again, just to be perfectly clear, I agree with your views. However, I don't think the example with Scorpion Master or the statement about taking Fox/Falco mains and making them play different characters were proper.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I think his Scorpion Master point is valid. People could have said that Mario needs hacks or buffs in Melee in order to be the slightest bit viable, but Mango showed that just by getting better*, Mario can be viable and compete against the top tiers with just the tools that he already has.

*I mean this in the sense that he's a better player than any of the Mario mains. If any Mario player rose to Mango's overall skill level , then they could win tournaments with Mario too.

 

[metroid1117]

I think his Scorpion Master point is valid. People could have said that Mario needs hacks or buffs in Melee in order to be the slightest bit viable, but Mango showed that just by getting better*, Mario can be viable and compete against the top tiers with just the tools that he already has.

*I mean this in the sense that he's a better player than any of the Mario mains. If any Mario player rose to Mango's overall skill level , then they could win tournaments with Mario too.

I personally feel the term "viable" means that you and your opponent could be of comparative skill level and you can expect to have a chance at winning with your character. I don't think that Mango doing well with Mario proves Mario's viability because he's so much better than other players; a drastic analogy (that isn't meant to offend or demean Zhu, SS, or any great player who lost to "Scorpion Master" at that tournament) would be you beating newbs with G&W or any other bottom-tiered character.

On that note, I also feel that match-up experience plays a role in viability. Mario can do very well when the opponent doesn't have much match-up experience and both players are on a comparable skill level.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

I think his Scorpion Master point is valid. People could have said that Mario needs hacks or buffs in Melee in order to be the slightest bit viable, but Mango showed that just by getting better*, Mario can be viable and compete against the top tiers with just the tools that he already has.

*I mean this in the sense that he's a better player than any of the Mario mains. If any Mario player rose to Mango's overall skill level , then they could win tournaments with Mario too.

But that's only if this Mango-skill-leveled Mario player plays lesser skilled players. If the player plays someone of equal skill using a better character, the better character would still have the higher chance of winning (barring character counters and whatnot), hands down. (If Mango were to split in two, one using Falco while the other using Mario, pretty sure that Falco would win by a significant margin.) So if a player could be winning lower-level tournaments with Mario, then that player would probably still be better off playing a higher tiered character in higher-level tournaments.
All in all, a significantly worse character (compared to a top-tier) would always be the inferior choice unless the player has put so much time into that character and disregarded the high tiers. But for top-level players, they know how the high tiers work, and will probably always do better with the high tier, given that the character tier gap isn't too big.

 

[CSDragon]

As much as I would want that stage, there really are too many viable stages already.

There is no such thing as too many viable stages.

 

[JCaesar]

mario tornado is a poorly designed move. it almost never helps you recover at all in melee. I've seen it help about 3 times in the 10 years I've played melee.

It would still suck with spiking on the last hit, bu at least it would be more cool. Right now it just sucks.

Mario's fireballs (even with doc tragectory) are also plenty worse than docs pills. the fireballs move too fast and do less damage. P:M Mario is basically doc minus pills plus mario f-smash and random little things mario did better. Mario:M is solid I'm sure, as even doc was pretty solid in melee, but he is by no means too balanced to no have a small tweak to him. The bloody mario tornado is useless anyway. Have any of you even played mario/doc in melee?

Mario:M's fireballs do just as much damage as pills. Not sure about the speed, but they aren't difficult to follow up. Definitely one of the overall most useful projectiles in Project M. And Mario:M's fsmash is significantly better than Mario's.

Doc was one of the 4 characters I used in tournament when I played Melee competitively, if that counts. Mario:M is a LOT better than Doc, I assure you.

I'd rather see dtilt buffed than tornado, personally. There's not really a use that can be gleaned from what tornado currently does. Dtilt could be a reasonably effective poke/shield stab, but after the hit box comes out, Mario just kinda sits there contemplating his navel, and he gets punished whether he hit his opponent or not.

When's the last time you played Mario:M? Dtilt is buffed significantly. I've gotten it to combo into fsmash at kill %s.

 

[jalued]

Mario:M's fireballs do just as much damage as pills. Not sure about the speed, but they aren't difficult to follow up. Definitely one of the overall most useful projectiles in Project M. And Mario:M's fsmash is significantly better than Mario's.

Doc was one of the 4 characters I used in tournament when I played Melee competitively, if that counts. Mario:M is a LOT better than Doc, I assure you.



When's the last time you played Mario:M? Dtilt is buffed significantly. I've gotten it to combo into fsmash at kill %s.

Not to mention that it is easier to walljump out of his upB and any character changes now would definately delay the release (bug and balance testing)

 

[OmegaMuffin]

Whatever happened to the Battlefield debate?

 

[I R MarF]

Zelda is overpowered. She has an extremely powerful punish game and doesn't have any weaknesses which factor into her playstyle. Mobility issues would have, but telelport negates any such weakness and Naryu's love or whatever seems too useful. It has invincibility frames, land cancellable, and reflects projectiles. Its an appropriate defensive response to nearly all situations when it should be more situational.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the buff everything approach is kind of disappointing. Please do not put Zelda in the new demo if she is still this good.

 

[Juushichi]

Zelda is fine. Get better.

 

[Stevo]

Mario:M's fireballs do just as much damage as pills. Not sure about the speed, but they aren't difficult to follow up. Definitely one of the overall most useful projectiles in Project M. And Mario:M's fsmash is significantly better than Mario's.

Doc was one of the 4 characters I used in tournament when I played Melee competitively, if that counts. Mario:M is a LOT better than Doc, I assure you.



When's the last time you played Mario:M? Dtilt is buffed significantly. I've gotten it to combo into fsmash at kill %s.

hmm, this is why I was trying to wait for demo 2 before making comments.

Thanks for the response.

 

[Yeroc]

Zelda is overpowered. She has an extremely powerful punish game and doesn't have any weaknesses which factor into her playstyle. Mobility issues would have, but telelport negates any such weakness and Naryu's love or whatever seems too useful. It has invincibility frames, land cancellable, and reflects projectiles. Its an appropriate defensive response to nearly all situations when it should be more situational.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the buff everything approach is kind of disappointing. Please do not put Zelda in the new demo if she is still this good.

Fox is overpowered. He has an extremely powerful pressure game and doesn't have any weaknesses which factor into his playstyle. Punishment susceptibility would have, but exceptionally safe moves and high mobility negate any such weaknesses and shine or whatever seems too useful. It has invincibility frames, is jump cancellable, hits on frame 1, and reflects projectiles. It also is capable of gimping some characters entirely on its own, from 0%. It guarantees followups or combo escapes in many situations unparalleled by the rest of the cast and should be more situational.

See how easy that was?

 

[Couch]

Just out of curiosity, will wolf have as much potential for crazy tech skill combos as falco, for instance?

 

[Yeroc]

I think so. They won't be the same combos obviously, but yeah, I'm sure somebody will find some outrageous stuff there.

 

[drsusredfish]

Fox is overpowered. He has an extremely powerful pressure game and doesn't have any weaknesses which factor into his playstyle. Punishment susceptibility would have, but exceptionally safe moves and high mobility negate any such weaknesses and shine or whatever seems too useful. It has invincibility frames, is jump cancellable, hits on frame 1, and reflects projectiles. It also is capable of gimping some characters entirely on its own, from 0%. It guarantees followups or combo escapes in many situations unparalleled by the rest of the cast and should be more situational.

See how easy that was?

lol should have ended this comment with

"I've said it before and I'll say it again, the buff everything approach is kind of disappointing. Please do not put Fox in the new demo if he is still this good."